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Didymus

Didymus

Clutching at invisible straws
Dec 11, 2018
348
Some information I found about 1.4B being frozen at room temperature. Just so you know if you buy it.
And for the experts to share their thoughts on this.


I looked at one of the German remarks on ebay.de from a buyer saying (google translated):

https://www.ebay.de/itm/100-ml-1-4-...m3d5acd031e:g:LwcAAOSwwZtakcXa:rk:1:pf:0#rwid

"The fabric was frozen on arrival; however, the seller has included instructions for making the liquid. "

And another one on Reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/DrugStashe..._of_14butanediol_frozen_at_room_termperature/

"...After one hour on the heater, roughly the half turned into liquid"

And on Erowid https://erowid.org/ask/ask.php?ID=2308

"Q:
I purchased some 1,4-butanediol approximately 2 years ago. After opening it and removing about 20\\% of the bottle I misplaced it. I only recently found it and to my surprise most of it had crystalized. I was wondering what the status of the crystalized butanediol is. Can I get it back to it's original state? Can the crystals be used? and is the liquid still in the bottle actually 1,4-butanediol or could it too have changed into something else.

A:
1,4-butanediol is normally a liquid, but it has a very high freezing point. It will begin to freeze at 20.1 degrees Celsius (68 degrees Fahrenheit). At temperatures below this, it will turn first into a gelatinous mass, and then harder at lower temperatures. If your 1,4-butanediol has been stored in a cool environment, this is probably what happened to it. Letting it warm up should thaw it back to a liquid. As long as it has been stored in an air tight container and not exposed to extreme heat or cold, it's unlikely that it has broken down into anything else."



 
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311

311

Dying cat
Nov 24, 2018
779
Some information I found about 1.4B being frozen at room temperature. Just so you know if you buy it.
And for the experts to share their thoughts on this.


I looked at one of the German remarks on ebay.de from a buyer saying (google translated):

https://www.ebay.de/itm/100-ml-1-4-...m3d5acd031e:g:LwcAAOSwwZtakcXa:rk:1:pf:0#rwid

"The fabric was frozen on arrival; however, the seller has included instructions for making the liquid. "

And another one on Reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/DrugStashe..._of_14butanediol_frozen_at_room_termperature/

"...After one hour on the heater, roughly the half turned into liquid"

And on Erowid https://erowid.org/ask/ask.php?ID=2308

"Q:
I purchased some 1,4-butanediol approximately 2 years ago. After opening it and removing about 20\\% of the bottle I misplaced it. I only recently found it and to my surprise most of it had crystalized. I was wondering what the status of the crystalized butanediol is. Can I get it back to it's original state? Can the crystals be used? and is the liquid still in the bottle actually 1,4-butanediol or could it too have changed into something else.

A:
1,4-butanediol is normally a liquid, but it has a very high freezing point. It will begin to freeze at 20.1 degrees Celsius (68 degrees Fahrenheit). At temperatures below this, it will turn first into a gelatinous mass, and then harder at lower temperatures. If your 1,4-butanediol has been stored in a cool environment, this is probably what happened to it. Letting it warm up should thaw it back to a liquid. As long as it has been stored in an air tight container and not exposed to extreme heat or cold, it's unlikely that it has broken down into anything else."


I believe it freezes at room temperature
 
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A

Arak

Enlightened
Sep 21, 2018
1,176
But how effective is it really for our purpose ? And in my case, I already have a tolerance for sedatives.

And if it were really that effective, why does no book or PPEH mention it ? We have to keep in mind, people die from all sorts of stuff all the time.

Note: I tried checking for the ldlo for humans. Very little information.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1197/aemj.9.7.730 ' GHB in rats is 1.7 g/kg, and is 3.3 g/kg in dogs, with death resulting from respiratory depression'
https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/1_4-butanediol Mouse lethal dose (50 percent kill): 1650 mg/kg
 
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311

311

Dying cat
Nov 24, 2018
779
The guy was slipping it in their drinks and had a body count of 4.

High doses of GHB act as an an aesthetic rapidly producing
unconsciousness which can lead to coma and then death [4,9,10].
Despite the adverse effects GHB can present, also including
agitation, bradycardia, hypothermia, and hypotension [6].
misuse of gamma-hydroxybutyrate has been increasing since the
1990s and has been implicated in a growing number of deaths in
the USA, Canada, Australia and Europe [9].
 
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A

Arak

Enlightened
Sep 21, 2018
1,176
@311 ,

Books like Five Last Acts, Geo Stone's book etc.
 
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RememberWhatUCameFor

RememberWhatUCameFor

dont cry for me im already dead
Nov 20, 2018
590
Ok, here's what I've got:


"1,4-Butanediol is added to a wide variety of dietary supplements to enhance sleep, libido, athletic performance, fat metabolism, and relaxation. It is also used as an industrial solvent. After ingestion, it is rapidly metabolized to gamma-hydroxybutyrate*, which itself is abused for euphoric and sexual side effects. This report describes 9 episodes of severe toxic effects from 1,4-butanediol in 8 patients, 2 of whom died.

Clinical findings included vomiting, urinary and fecal incontinence, agitation, combativeness, labile level of consciousness, coma, and death. 1,4-Butanediol was undetectable in nonfatal cases, but gamma-hydroxybutyrate concentrations in the blood and urine far exceeded normal concentrations. The amount ingested ranged from 5 g to 20 g (88 mg/kg-300 mg/kg) in the patients who died and 1 g to 14 g in those who survived.

Although only 9 toxic episodes related to 1,4-butanediol are reported here, overdoses from gamma-hydroxybutyrate-related compounds occur commonly. Targeted analysis is needed to detect these compounds because routine toxicologic screens do not detect them. Furthermore, given its rapid metabolism, gamma-hydroxybutyrate may be nondetectable in the blood after a few hours but may remain detectable in the urine. Fortunately, most patients recover from overdoses rapidly and uneventfully, as long as good supportive care is instituted
(emphsis mine)."

*See? It's a precursor to GHB, as OP (@311) stated.

https://www.jwatch.org/em200102280000009/2001/02/28/toxic-effects-1-4-butanediol

"From June 1999 through December 1999, cases of toxic effects of 1,4-butanediol involving patients who presented to emergency departments with a clinical syndrome suggesting toxic effects of gamma-hydroxybutyrate and a history of ingesting 1,4-butanediol and patients discovered through public health officials and family members /were identified/. Gas chromatography-mass spectrometry /was used/ to measure 1,4-butanediol or its metabolite, gamma-hydroxybutyrate, in urine, serum, or blood. Nine episodes of toxic effects in eight patients who had ingested 1,4-butanediol recreationally, to enhance bodybuilding, or to treat depression or insomnia /were identified/. One patient presented twice with toxic effects and had withdrawal symptoms after her second presentation. Clinical findings and adverse events included vomiting, urinary and fecal incontinence, agitation, combativeness, a labile level of consciousness, respiratory depression, and death. No additional intoxicants were identified in six patients, including the two who died. The doses of 1,4-butanediol ingested ranged from 5.4 to 20 g in the patients who died and ranged from 1 to 14 g in the nonfatal cases. The health risks of 1,4-butanediol are similar to those of its counterparts, gamma-hydroxybutyrate and gamma-butyrolactone. These include acute toxic effects, which may be fatal, and addiction and withdrawal."

https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+1112

"1,4-Butanediol is also used as a recreational drug known by some users as "One Comma Four", "Liquid Fantasy", "One Four Bee" or "One Four B-D-O". It exerts effects similar to γ-hydroxybutyrate (GHB), which is a metabolic product of 1,4-butanediol.[11][12] When mixed with other drugs, misuse of 1,4-butanediol has resulted in addiction and death.

While co-administration of ethanol and GHB already poses serious risks, co-administration of ethanol with 1,4-butanediol will interact considerably and has many other potential risks. This is because the same enzymes that are responsible for metabolizing alcohol also metabolize 1,4-butanediol so there is a strong chance of a dangerous drug interaction (emphasis mine). Emergency room patients who overdose on both ethanoland 1,4-butanediol often present with symptoms of alcohol intoxication initially and as the ethanol is metabolized the 1,4-butanediol is then able to better compete for the enzyme and a second period of intoxication ensues as the 1,4-butanediol is converted into GHB.[14]

Like GHB, 1,4-butanediol is only safe in small amounts. Adverse effects in higher doses include, nausea, vomiting, dizziness, sedation, vertigo, and potentially death if ingested in large amounts. Anxiolytic effects are diminished and side effects increased when used in combination with alcohol.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1,4-Butanediol

"At least two people have died from a chemical cousin of GHB and six others have overdosed in the decade since the government banned the sale of the "date-rape drug," a study found.

More such overdoses have almost certainly occurred but have gone unreported, in part because many coroners and emergency rooms do not test for GHB, said medical anthropologist Deborah L. Zvosec, a Ph.D. who led the study published in Thursday's New England Journal of Medicine."

http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v01/n061/a09.html?397

"I decided to start small;
T=0; 1.2ml mixed in a shot of Orange juice.

T+60min; The effects seem to be winding down ever so slightly, so now I feel comfortable going to bed. I am sooooo grateful that I did not take any more when I considered doing so at ten minutes. I feel that, had I taken any more at that time, unrousable sleep would've surely ensued. I had originally considered taking 3ml. Good thing I started with just 1.2ml."

https://erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=9125

"This was the second time my wife and I tried 1,4-Butanediol. The first time we each did 5ml with very little effect. So we tried it again but this time we mixed it in our alcohol in our drinks.

1hour 45min went by and I mixed more 1,4-Butanediol in our drinks, then it started to really hit me but my wife was still sober. at this point I ended up putting a total of 40ml of the stuff between both of our drinks.

...[my wife] was cold, her face was blue, she had no signs of life except she was starting to go into uncontrolable convulsions from time to time. she did not respond to any external stimuli. someone ask me what did we take. I was so out of it I didn't even remember going to the party, let alone what we took.

... [hospital staff] confirmed that her coma would have been induced with the mixing of alcohol and 1,4-Butanediol. she finally came out of her coma after 6 hours, she did not remember anything. not the party or how we got there or any thing. it took another 5 hours till she was recovered enough that they released her. this stuff might be fun, but take it from my own stupidity DO NOT MIX WITH ALCOHOL!!!!"

https://erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=16276

"... according to the Drug Enforcement Administration, there were 49 deaths associated with the use of BD from 1995 through October 1999. "Patients use [1,4-butanediol] to get high, but … the dose needed to get high is close to the toxic dose."

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=117703&page=1

"The lowest reported LD50 (Lethal Dose, 50%; i.e. the dose that is lethal for half of the animals tested) value is 1200 mg/kg bw (body weight) in guinea pigs.

In rats and mice, reported values are in the range of 1525-1830 mg/kg bw and 2060 mg/kg bw respectively."

https://www.nicnas.gov.au/chemical-information/factsheets/chemical-name/butanediol-1,4-butanediol

So, the quick takeaway here is the stuff seems to be very lethal when mixed with alcohol. What I can't tell you is dosage; the LD/50 tests on animals are measured in mg per kg, and I don't know how to extrapolate mg/mL from a liquid chemical, even with the level of purity at a known 99%. However, from the anecdotal information I'm reading, and as @311 stated, it's relatively a very small amount, at or less than 5 mL.

Is it even possible to figure out the mg per mL? Is there a chemist in the house?!?

I'm kind of shocked these reports have been coming in for ~ 20 yrs, and this stuff is still readily available to anyone online.

Without further research-- I'm done for now-- my question would be how much time is necessary to be safe.

@311, I'm super impressed. This merits further discussion and research. Amazing find!!



how much ml would a 92kg person need?
 
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RememberWhatUCameFor

RememberWhatUCameFor

dont cry for me im already dead
Nov 20, 2018
590
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gingerplum

gingerplum

Enlightened
Nov 5, 2018
1,450
But how effective is it really for our purpose ? And in my case, I already have a tolerance for sedatives.

And if it were really that effective, why does no book or PPEH mention it ? We have to keep in mind, people die from all sorts of stuff all the time.

Note: I tried checking for the ldlo for humans. Very little information.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1197/aemj.9.7.730 ' GHB in rats is 1.7 g/kg, and is 3.3 g/kg in dogs, with death resulting from respiratory depression'
https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/1_4-butanediol Mouse lethal dose (50 percent kill): 1650 mg/kg

Hi Arak. I appreciate your skepticism; I'm a skeptic, too. I answered this in a prior post, but it bears repeating: I think the reason that GHB (or any precursor of it) isn't mentioned in the PPeH is because most physicians have little to no knowledge about GHB. It hasn't been used in clinical settings for anaesthesia since the 1970's. Although it came into favor as a party drug in the 90's, it's not readily identifiable on standard drug tests, so even ER physicians aren't as familiar with it as other recreational drugs.

It takes Gas Chromatography/Mass Spectrometry (GC/MS) to identify GHB in a lab setting, and these tests are costly and time consuming, taking a couple of days to get results.

"Many people who encounter individuals who use GHB or GBL will never have heard of the drugs, and locating information on the topic can be difficult. Both in my personal experience with GBL and in research involving users around the world, I have repeatedly found that professionals who are working with G users and addicts display a (sometimes worrying) lack of knowledge on the issues surrounding its use. I recently asked a local doctor where he went for advice on drugs he had no knowledge of when patients presented with addiction to them – he said he used Wikipedia."

https://youareholdingthisboxupsidedown.wordpress.com/tag/when-was-ghb-made-illegal/

"Laboratory tests for gamma-hydroxybutyric acid (GHB) in serum or urine are not readily available. The diagnosis is made by history and physical examination. Reference laboratories can perform assays on blood and urine for GHB. These tests take time and are not useful clinically but can be very useful in legal cases (eg, drug-facilitated rape)."

https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/820531-workup

The bottom line is that it does not surprise me at all that the authors of the PPeH weren't familiar enough (or at all) with GHB to address it. I worked as a nurse in critical and acute care settings for 20+ yrs (admittedly, seldom in the ER) and I didn't hear GHB referenced once.

As far as your tolerance for sedatives goes, I would absolutely factor that in when considering this or any other CNS suppressant.
 
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J

jizz676

Student
Sep 25, 2018
136
so I have to take some anthiemetics drink this thing...100ml for ex. and without alcohol?
is 100 ml enough?
 
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jizz676

Student
Sep 25, 2018
136
12 hours have I to be alone? so much?
 
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311

311

Dying cat
Nov 24, 2018
779
so I have to take some anthiemetics drink this thing...100ml for ex. and without alcohol?
is 100 ml enough?
100ml is more than enough
 
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311

311

Dying cat
Nov 24, 2018
779
is there a difference between plastic and glass bottle? because I see there are these 2 options on ebay.de
Just make sure its 1,4 butanediol
 
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T

TiredHorse

Enlightened
Nov 1, 2018
1,819
is there a difference between plastic and glass bottle? because I see there are these 2 options on ebay.de
If I had the choice, I'd get glass.

I have heard reference to the fact that it is a plastic solvent, so long term storage in plastic may not be adviseable. Whether you plan to use it immediately or wait, keep in mind that prior to your purchase it might have been sitting in the bottle for a while.
 
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jizz676

Student
Sep 25, 2018
136
is this method better than opioid overdose by ingestion? I dont know much of the opioid overdose and how to do it
 
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GerMann

GerMann

year of birth: 1972
Nov 30, 2018
274
Strange study...

/CASE REPORTS/ 15 or 30 g of 1,4-butanediol (0.21 or 0.43 g/kg bw) was rectally administered to 7 patients. After 10 to 20 minutes, the patients became /comatose/ after deep unconsciousness, miosis and complete areflexia and this condition continued for 1 to 16 hr. Two of them died within 72 hours after the administration, but other five patients recovered naturally or after treatment with analeptic. Sustained disorder was not observed. Renal disorder was found on two /dead/ patients.
https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+1112
 
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311

311

Dying cat
Nov 24, 2018
779
Strange studie...

/CASE REPORTS/ 15 or 30 g of 1,4-butanediol (0.21 or 0.43 g/kg bw) was rectally administered to 7 patients. After 10 to 20 minutes, the patients became /comatose/ after deep unconsciousness, miosis and complete areflexia and this condition continued for 1 to 16 hr. Two of them died within 72 hours after the administration, but other five patients recovered naturally or after treatment with analeptic. Sustained disorder was not observed. Renal disorder was found on two /dead/ patients.
https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+1112
so they were treated for respiratory depression? @gingerplum
 
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GerMann

GerMann

year of birth: 1972
Nov 30, 2018
274
... "increase the effects of alcohol and are even more dangerous when consumed with other central nervous system depressant drugs."

-> Q. What kind of nerv. sys. depress. DRUGs?! Does someone research for that point??
A: I found these:
Benzodiazepines
  • diazepam (Valium®)
  • clonazepam (Klonopin®)
  • alprazolam (Xanax®)
  • triazolam (Halcion®)
  • estazolam (Prosom®)

Non-Benzodiazepine Sedative Hypnotics

  • zolpidem (Ambien®)
  • eszopiclone (Lunesta®)
  • zaleplon (Sonata®)

Barbiturates

  • mephobarbital (Mebaral®)
  • phenobarbital (Luminal®)
  • pentobarbital sodium (Nembutal®)


https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/prescription-cns-depressants
 
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311

311

Dying cat
Nov 24, 2018
779
... "increase the effects of alcohol and are even more dangerous when consumed with other central nervous system depressant drugs."
-> Q. What kind of nerv. sys. depress. DRUGs?! Does someone research for that point??
Opiates. Benzos. Barbituates
 
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B

Battered_Seoul

Experienced
Jun 13, 2018
266
This the stuff? Is the missing "e" significant? Looks like this could be quite a potent knock-out sedative for other methods.
 

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311

311

Dying cat
Nov 24, 2018
779
This the stuff? Is the missing "e" significant? Looks like this could be quite a potent knock-out sedative for other methods.
Yes that's the drug. I checked the formula.
 
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A

Arak

Enlightened
Sep 21, 2018
1,176
@311 ,
How many receptors are there ? Where are those located ? What's the exact relationship between GABAA, GABAB and GHB ?Maybe a moderate but very persistent benzo tolerance or dependence would make GHB ineffective. Opiates can also cause fatal respiratory depression, but not easily.
 
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311

311

Dying cat
Nov 24, 2018
779
@311 ,
How many receptors are there ? Where are those located ? What's the exact relationship between GABAA, GABAB and GHB ?Maybe a moderate but very persistent benzo tolerance or dependence would make GHB ineffective. Opiates can also cause fatal respiratory depression, but not easily.
It doesnt act on gaba-a and acts on the gaba-b in a weak manner, gaba-b is usually a target site for drugs that treat hypertonia. I really dont know much about the ghb receptor other than the high is very complex. I know dopamine is involved and usually you sleep then wake up feeling energized. I dont think benzos interact with ghb in a significant manner but i can be wrong. I read that benzos are given to people who have seizures from ghb so it cant interact with it that much. alcohol is key tho.

Also opiates easily cause apnea. theyve killed more people recently than the those that died in the vietnam war. Dr. philip Nitschke is frankly off on this subject. He has a boner for fentanyl which is 100 times as strong as morphine but he thinks morphine cant do the job when opiates are mentioned extensively in other books. Why do people think narcan is carried by every EMT. OPIATES ARE LETHAL. THEY KILL 10's of thousands of people a year. I was doing tiny amounts of heroin recently and nearly died but took narcan. I fell asleep and wasnt breathing and would wake up gasping for air. Hes just frankly off on opiates because he has such a fucking hard on for Nembutal.
 
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