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Waterr

Waterr

The messiest Trans-Fem
Aug 21, 2023
41
I had found out about this site through his video he had created, i understood what this site really meant as soon as i looked further into it and instantly signed up, i dont regret the decision. I honestly praise him for making the video because hes inviting others who desperately need a place to vent and need a place for freedom of expression and encouragement onto this site, hes probably helped hundreds, just not in the way he was probably expecting.
 
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notrealmatthew

notrealmatthew

The kindest are the most suffering
Aug 27, 2023
56
Actually, i got his video recommended on YouTube. And as a CTB person i was terrified by his video. Like whaat, what's this forum about?

But after i found it i realised, that this place is so needed for me so much times for last 5 years. Feel free to talk about your previous CTBs or planning one - that's cool. Because... Uh, RainAndSadness actually got the best answer. Fully agreed with him.

All other people are just not getting it, even if it's so obvious... I have my full right to get rest and stop ruining everyone who is around me lifes... And if it's only my choice - you should give some respect to it. I am a human too. I want to be happy. Even if that meant CTB, I'm okay with that.
 
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I

Incandescent

Member
Aug 29, 2023
22
People that try to bring down SS are their single biggest advertisers and traffic drivers. Ironic
 
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Teleftaía Anapnoí

Teleftaía Anapnoí

δεν υπάρχει μέλλον
Jul 6, 2023
127
It's a shame that Tantacrul doesn't allow any opposing comments in its chat. I tried a few times, even though I didn't use common suicide terms, but nothing goes against what he said about the forum, or even about the right to die in peace. A false sense of homogeneity is created, but it is false.
 
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Seered Doom

Seered Doom

A nihilist going through an unrelinquished Hell
Sep 9, 2023
753
Tentacrul led me here and knowing how many of us came around bc of that just shows how many fucks he actually gives, not to mention the piss poor censorship. Just typing in sorrow solution brought me here. Well done, dumbass!
 
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chuerdhmproton

chuerdhmproton

Mr. Water Pig
Sep 9, 2023
201
very nicely written response
 
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R

Resinn66

Student
Sep 5, 2021
120
As a youtuber he found a good topic to make money of it. I don't believe he gives a damn about us and our needs. He scrupulously foud a way to profit at our expense. Evil 😈
 
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Seered Doom

Seered Doom

A nihilist going through an unrelinquished Hell
Sep 9, 2023
753
It is very evil. I believe that he shouldn't have used grieving parents in his video either. That's such a scummy thing to do
 
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snowcloud9

snowcloud9

I’m Cold
Sep 9, 2023
250
Imo if Tantacrul truly cared about preventing people from committing suicide and wasn't there for the outrage media clicks he would've removed his video since it's really clear that much of the site's traffic is coming from it. At the very least, I'm glad he's not profiting from the death of another person; I put the video through a monetization checker and it turned out that the video is not monetized, to my surprise.

As for "Cake123" who he extensively mentions in the video, I have a few opinions about that.

First off, I don't think there's anything wrong with her not having cbt'ed. This is a supposed to be a pro-choice forum, not a pro-suicide one, and arguably I think people who don't intend to commit suicide (maybe people who aren't even suicidal) but support pro-choice ideals should be allowed on this forum. Hell, Philip Nitschke doesn't appear to be suicidal afaik but is advocating for assisted suicide. Though I'm admittedly not familiar with the criteria for getting account approval here. I def would draw the line if "Cake123" were encouraging people who aren't already certain to ctb to ctb, but I haven't been on the site enough to know.

But secondly, I did get the impression while reading recently forum posts that Cake123 is not pro-choice, quote "I asked 'Cake123' directly that if she was in charge of a switch to extinguish all life, would she flip the switch to the off position (to extinguish ALL life). She said she would in an instant". Cake123 does not want just the ability to kill herself, which I think is okay, but she wants to play God and determine the outcome for others. This isn't pro-choice. It's not pro-suicide either, but if in your morality you would murder others had you had the chance, you inherently want someone to choose death. Which makes me wary.

I have my biases and my beliefs differ from hers. My personal values believes that life and death as both neutrals, just two different but equal choices you can choose from, like how you can choose to drink Cola or Pepsi. I'll admit that I don't see existence as equivalent to suffering, but instead as a state where some people are destined to suffer and some are not, which in my day to day life seems to hold true. Some of my peers live wonderful lives, they have everything and are thriving, and I'm happy and not resentful that they are happy with their current state. Even though my state involves a lot of suffering, I don't assume that everyone's life is like mine and project my decisions about my life onto them. Cake123 doesn't seem to understand how someone can have preferences that differ from her own and that people have unique experiences. She thinks that she's enlightened for hating 'Cola', which is pretentious and rubs me the wrong way. "I wish there was something better than this site […] so that […] all those who have awareness about how existence is so dreadful can just be at peace."
 
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kittyneedsabreak

kittyneedsabreak

Member
Sep 10, 2023
11
I find funny how people like him who critique this platform often bring up how some users have been on here for a while and are still on the forum and still alive, as though passively suicidal people or people who deal with shit day to day but also can't exit due to major obligations or something just don't exist.
 
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W

Winterreise

I wanna be a baby and cry and be held forever
Jun 27, 2022
147
Its all law and behind the scenes shit now.
 
deathbydragon

deathbydragon

take me with you
Mar 17, 2022
189
I find funny how people like him who critique this platform often bring up how some users have been on here for a while and are still on the forum and still alive, as though passively suicidal people or people who deal with shit day to day but also can't exit due to major obligations or something just don't exist.
Or maybe have no painless reliable methods available to them, or they want to stay alive to push forward the campaign for belgium-style legal assisted suicide for mental suffering. So many people are fine with the idea of us taking undignified, unreliable, painful CTB methods as long as it shuts us up.
 
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L

Lydia12

Member
Sep 10, 2023
42
The youtuber Tantacrul, also known in this forum as @Jonels, finally recorded a video about this community, in which he slandered and insulted our members and I've decided to respond to him directly. He has been obsessed with this forum for the last few weeks, creating alt-account after alt-account to force his narrative on other people. A little reminder on how all of this started, back in November 2022.









These are some snippets of his posts before I kicked him from this community. I made pretty clear in that thread that he is allowed to use this forum and express criticism towards this forum as long as it's fair and in good faith. It's obvious from the posts above that this wasn't the case so I gave him the boot. As a result of that, he announced that he would make a video about this forum. It's pretty obvious that all of this is done solely because he wants to cause damage to this community because we didn't give him a platform for his immature behavior. And look, Tantacrul, you might not mention me and this forum by name but I'll mention you by name.

Chapter one. The real philosophy of this website
[responding to "How does the site work?", "The philosophy of this site"]

What's the purpose of this forum? Obviously Tantacrul isn't really interested in portraying this forum in a fair light, the video he made obviously doesn't have the intention to start a discussion about the moral implications of this forum with fair arguments. It's a direct response of us banning him for repeatedly(!) violating the rules back in November when he insulted the community and claimed we are reponsible for the death of another person. It's supposed to be another hitpiece, similiar to the one in December 2021 from the NYT.

I already explained this here but the purpose of this forum is to provide a safe space for suicidal or struggling people in general to discuss deeply personal topics without censorship. That's the most straight-forward answer. I would add that this forum also provides a space to talk about these subjects without a forced narrative and that's one of the reasons why this place is so appealing to so many people. If you talk about your problems with anyone out there, it always comes with restrictions. If you say a little bit too loud that you are suicidal, you have to expect severe backlash and in the worst case, involuntary hospitalisation. I'll get to this point later, this is gonna be a very detailed response to the accusations directed at this community.
Another aspects what makes this forum so appealing to so many people is the fact that you can talk about your suicidality in this place without the risk of intervention. Instead, you receive honest compassion and empathy because we're all mind-liked people. We all suffer together in this place and we're all respecting each others boundaries. And that's important because I didn't experience that out there, I simply didn't. And we talk to each other with an even ground, which isn't the case when you talk to a psychiatrist for example, there is a very different power dynamic in such conversations than here. And this aspect of the forum, which has caused so many people to stay, hasn't even been mentioned once. This forum saves lives, without a doubt.

And there are people in this community that have been suffering for years for various reasons and unlike Tantacruls narrative, this community doesn't just consist of young people who are impulsive and eager to engage in harmful behavior without much thought. Tantacrul doesn't understand that nobody becomes suicidal in a vacuum. We all have valid reasons to be in this forum. He pretends that people are lured into this community for no reason and then convinced to kill themselves just for fun. That's obviously not true, I don't even know where to start when I want to debunk this claim. But reading through the registration queue and the posts in this forum from new members makes very clear to me that most members who come to this place have a long experience with mental or physical health problems. And if someone comes to this place, they specifically seek out a forum with our philosophy, for a reason. Let's make one thing clear, people register in this place voluntarily because they have needs they want to address in this forum. And that's okay.

Here are some scientific articles digging into the nature of this forum and you will realize rather quickly that scientists have called this community pro-choice repeatedly in the past. These articles provide a very nuanced insight into this community and I appreciated the work that's been done.
Now, let's dig into the next claim.
You claim that this forum consists of 4 philosophies around the nine minute mark.
1. Nihilism.
2. Anti-natalism
3. Pro-mortalism
4. Libertarianism

While the first two philosophies are actually quite common in this forum, pro-mortalism and libertarianism isn't. There might be individual members who have libertarian or efilist beliefs but to say that these are dominant philosophies as you claim is absurd. There is a reason why nihilism and anti-natalism are common themes in this forum, it's because depressed people tend to have a more negative outlook on life compared to the rest of the population. It's quite natural actually and it's not really a surprise that this community tends to be more nihilistic compared to the average population. And anti-natalism, which is also more common in this community, is a belief that's shared in this forum because many of us didn't have the best parents and sometimes, our own parents contributed to our suffering. But I'll go into details about this later.

I don't know why you claim pro-mortalism is a dominant philosophy in this forum, it's not. Again, there might be individual posters who hold a pro-mortalist belief but that's in no way representative for the entire community. And that's really important because you use this framing over the course of the entire video to portray this forum as some kind of cult that pushes people into suicide because we supposedly gain satisfaction from doing so. That's a lie. Most members here recognise that ending your life is a serious act and shouldn't be done without severe introspection. But we regularly applaud and celebrate when members announce that they're leaving the forum because they have recovered. That's a good thing. Shouldn't that be obvious? Regarding libertarianism, you seem to confuse a fundamental basic human right like self-determination for libertarianism and I don't know why how you came to that conclusion. For me, it tells me a lot about your ignorance around this topic. The right to die is a human right and the ECHR has agreed with me on that topic repeatedly.

View attachment 103738
European Center for Law and Justice

View attachment 103737
The International Journal Of Human Rights

And that's the most shared value in this forum: self-determination, you being the only decision maker when it comes to matters that affect your welfare. And for many of us in this forum, we consider the right to die a human right. This has nothing to do with libertarianism as you claim but everything with individual autonomy, those are very fundamental values of every civilisation. And you live in the UK, right? So I wonder, why don't you value the right to die as a fundamental right? Do you disagree that people should have the right to make deeply personal decisions about their own life without interference of the state? That would be a regressive idea. Are you regressive, Tantacrul? Do you want to go back to times where women and men didn't have the legal right to make their own decisions concerning their welfare? I don't really think so.

But your attempt to slander this forum as some kind of obscure cult already failed. I believe in the right to die as a human right. I think every person who consider their life unworthy of living for various reasons, and the most common reason is chronic mental and physical pain, should have a right to exercise their right to die without interference of the state. And this sentiment has just recently been reinforced by the Federal Consitutional Court of Germany, making clear in their court ruling that the right to die isn't "restriced to serious or terminal diseases or specific phases of life or of a disease". It would contradict the fact that the right to die "is rooted in human dignity" and therefore does "NOT require any additional explanation or justification". The court also made clear that the right to die "also includes the right to seek and use voluntarily offered help to do so and that's by far the most progressive court ruling to this day, validating the right to die as a basic human right.
It seems to me that your entire video is based on a misunderstanding of the right to die. You consider the right to die a controversial topic and people fighting for ways to exercise said rights must be malicious actors according to your video but that's not really the case if you do some research about the ethical consensus in various countries regarding suicide and assisted suicide too. That's very important. You claim that sharing ressources and information regarding ways to exercise our right to die is bad and evil, I say it's an act of compassion. Let's end this here and come back to this topic later.

Chapter two. What are my beliefs
[responding to "who is responsible for setting up this site?"]

You dedicate a lot of your video talking about my beliefs without actually knowing why I'm a member in this forum.
I'm a trans woman who has suffered their entire life. My childhood was ruined by neglectful parents and I've had a terrible upbringing. As a result of that I experienced suicidal ideation very early in my life. Being trans teached me that we live in a society that doesn't really give a fuck about marginalised people. That's why I have become a member in this forum. During the years I have realized that the right to die is a deeply neglected right, in the majority of the world it's surpressed and you're not really allowed to talk openly about suicide. If you want to know more about the stigma around mental health, just talk to a few members of this forum and ask them why they are active in this forum.
I'm secular. I don't believe in any religion. And I consider the right to die when you're suffering so much that you can't take it any longer a compassionate and empathic position. I think people like you who fear monger about this forum and take valid criticism to the extreme are not acting in good faith. You claim this forum has anything to do with inceldom. If you did some research, you would know that inceldom isn't really a common theme in this forum. You will find so many different groups with different backgrounds in this community, we're actually quite diverse and people are here for very different reason. We're also very heterogenic when it comes to ideology. You claim we're a cult and that we all believe in the same thing. That's not really true. We disagree on so many topics. Some members are left-wing, some are right-wing, some are socially conservative and some are more liberal. I had so many political discussions with people who had a different opinion than me and that's okay. We don't really have any common goals in this forum. The only thing that truly connects us is the need for a place to talk about deeply personal topics without censorship and a forced narrative and the idea that we should have a right to make deeply decisions without intervention of a third party. And that's it.

Here is the deal. I've been suicidal my entire life. I'm not just an admin, I'm a member myself. I'm a human. And I'm trans. I know how it feels to be trapped in this place. I know how it feels to suffer. I know how it feels when nobody seems to understand you. I know how it feels when you can't open up to anybody because you fear judgemental reactions and involuntary hospitalisation when you just say the wrong words. And I know the dire need to find relief from pain. Do you, Jonels? You, who claims to speak for all the suicidal people out there, do you represent their interests and their needs? Really?

Chapter three. Are we a cult?
[responding to "Don't seek help", "A note about cults", "Malicious actors"]

You claim that this community is a cult, giving us three indicators that this is the case.

First, a cult has a "highly peculiar" alternative ideology, which runs contrary to mainstream - you claim that applies to us.
Second, a cult has "ridicilous hostility" towards mental health professionals and the idea of treatment.
Third, a cult is notorious for cutting people off from their support networks.

I mean, honestly, these are quite vague and I haven't seen a clear definition of a cult yet that would match the purpose of this forum. You could apply the first point to any community that whose ideals aren't mainstream yet and especially with the combination of the second or even the third point, I see a common theme. You know, I'm a trans woman. And there is a long history of the media misrepresenting who we are. And you're doing a similiar thing right now. I mean, let's look at some headlines, right?


There are prominent vocal right-wingers who use exactly the same points to go after trans people. They call us the LGBT cult, they claim we groom children.


It's exactly the same thing. If you apply some bad faith, you can make any movement look bad with the right framing. And that's you're doing right now. Congrats Tantacrul, you learned from the best. Take very vague descriptions of a cult and apply them without any nuance and consideration for context to the entire community and ooops, we look like the bad guys.

What do you know about me? Nothing. But you have no problem smearing me as a bad-faith actor, as someone who simply acts on bad intentions. I mean, that's a common theme, you know. I belong to many subcultures that have endured the same slander. I'm transgender, that's why I immediately knew where your narrative is coming from. Do you see how the media hounds us trans people? The way you talk about this community of struggling people comes from the same place of judgement. We're victims, not perpetrators. You're just a different color of judgement. This time you're not lashing out against trans people who supposedly groom vulnerable people, you're lashing out against suicidal people who supposedly do the same. Suicidal people who appreciate this forum, people who voluntarily seeked this community as a source of support. And don't they have a right to have a safe space without the forced narratives, the same bullshit you're pulling right now on suicidal people? Oh no, "we need to save them", right? We need to get the nanny state to take down this community, right? That's what you're doing right now but you're not speaking for anyone. You're only speaking for yourself and your language is bigotry.

Next, you you said this community is an echo chamber of negative thoughts and nihilistic view points and you claim to prove that with how many examples? 5 posts? 6 posts? Are these representative examples of the entire community? You mentioned "Cake123" who has several thousand posts but why are they representative of the entire community? You're cherry picking members who suit your narrative, we have members in this forum with even more posts who disagree with that particular member. I just want to make something clear. We have 1'700'000 posts in this forum and we have over 26'000 members and you pick a few anecdotal(!) cases, intentionally leaving out important context to paint a narrative I've already debunked repeatedly before, for example when I responded to the NYT article. So if you think debunking your video is gonna be difficult, you're mistaken, Tantarcul. As I just said, we have several thousand members who came to this place because it gave them something. Do you speak for them? You claim this forum has 10 million monthly visitors on average, doesn't that send a message to you, Tantacrul? Do you really speak for people who are struggling or are you just merely pretending to be talking for them? Maybe that's the problem. Let's make one thing clear, you are talking about suicidal people and not(!) for them. You haven't really engaged with this community in good faith and maybe that's the reason why people rather come to us? Who would want to seek support from someone who slanders 25k suicidal people, people who are literally suffering so much, as a cult of predators? That's so telling. It's always the same with you people, it's only judgemental toxic slander. Every single time and you always think it's so brilliant...

There are several scientific studies researching this forum and none of them describe this community as pro-mortalist. We might have individual members, vocal members who subscribe to an efilist worldview but then again, this is a forum for adults so shouldn't they have a right to speak their mind? That's the point of this forum, right? Being able to speak your mind in a safe space, right? That's absolutely the contrary of a cult. And all the active members who clearly disagree with me on various subjects prove that point.

Next, you take one case of someone who has been convicted and sentenced for doing things to other people outside of this forum and imply that we are in some way responsible for this. Again, predators exist in every community.


They're on Facebook, Youtube, Twitter, they are on Twitch, they have been on MySpace - pretending that this has anything to do with this forum just proves you're ignorant about the nature of the internet. Yeah, this forum does attract a few bad apples due to the nature of this forum but keep in mind, you have have one(!) conviction for a forum with 25k members that has existed for over 5 years and the conviction itself has nothing to do with the purpose of this community. This guy deserved to get punished for violating other people for sexual pleasure. I have no problem saying that. But are predators overrepresented in this community or are you just framing this forum in a particularly bad way with one singular case of a crime? Again, this community has 25k members. How representative is your little anecdotal case then? Not very representative at all, am I right?
Yeah, that's what I thought. Of course a community like ours that has vulnerable people (which doesn't translate to "no individual autonomy" btw) attracts bad apples. If we have reasonable doubts about someones intention, we reserve our right to boot them from the community. But you can't reads minds, that's why you're assuming I'm a bad-faith actor, and I can't read minds, that's why I don't know the intentions of people who come to this community. It's as simple as that. Of course I could ban anyone I consider dubious but who wants to be in a community where I single-handedly rule who is allowed to be here and who isnt?

Chapter four. Protecting the vulnerable
[responding to "protecting the vulnerable"]

You bring up the fact that people need to agree that they are of sound mind when they use the website. You quote a professor who said "People... take their own lives when they can see no end to their pain, when they feel trapped by it and that there is no way. Like physical pain, there is only so much mental pain that we can withstand and, when we reach our limit, something has to give. Sadly, for too many people, it is life that gives".

What an absurd quote. First of all, it implies that any kind of pain is temporary and that relief from pain is never an option if it results in someone's decision to exercise their right to die. I think your quote doesn't actually delegitimize the forum, it legitimizes it, making clear that some pain is so difficult to endure that providing relief in the form of death is an act of mercy. That's the key philosophy behind assisted suicide. What's the problem here? How does that relate to the forum?

And you criticise that we don't protect vulnerable people enough. Well, luckily I already addressed that talking point in a previous thread. Being vulnerable doesn't mean you are unable to make rational decisions, see this study:

I have to reject your entire premise based on that scientific study. I think vulnerable people have a right to individual autonomy, so they also have right to make decisions they consider appropiate for the current situation. We both know protecting "vulnerabel people" is a scape goat to go after all people who are struggling, it's a deeply regressive notion, it's an extension of the "think of the children"-fallacy and it comes from a social-conservative interpretion of liberty. I don't even know why you bring up that topic in the first place, it's not a topic specific to this forum, the question if vulnerable people should roam the internet freely without any protections is a conversation we should have when we talk about safety on the internet in general and if it's okay to infringe on the individual autonomy of adults in certain situations. But as I said, I reject your premise and the study I've linked seems to agree with me.

You're also implying that a distressed mental state is only temporary but how do you know? We had member in this forum who experience strong depression and suicidality for years, myself included by the way. What's the point of that talking point? We simply don't know if someone can recover from their struggle. I know a lot of people can't. Are we just gonna throw them under the bus and prolong their life indefinitely even when they scream and yell for relief? Is that a compassionate position?

As I said, you shouldn't pretend to talk for suicidal people. You don't. You have no idea about the subject matter and you should have sticked to music.
How do you even know if people who register in this community don't have the mental capacity to use this forum? It's just an assumption, nothing else. I think people who specifically seek out the content of this forum know what they want. And most people here don't sound like they're in some kind of episode as you suggest. The vast majority of members can describe very well why they are here. If you just spent a little bit of time here instead of being a judgemental dork, you would realize that we have plenty of members who have been struggling for years without relief. And you're essentially sitting on your chair, probably not knowing what it means to suffer, and you scream you want more, you want more? More of what? More suffering? And you think that's the compassionate position?

Chapter five. Instruction threads and the "marketplace"
[responding to "the instructions thread", "the marketplace"]

You're implying we work with Exit. It's a conspiracy theory. The forum doesn't make any profit, period. Your claim that this forum is illegal in most countries is therefore incorrect. Nobody is allowed to sell anything on the forum. If we find out, we take action. Your claim that the forum works as a marketplace is therefore false as well. You shouldn't listen so much to Kelli. She doesn't understand anything and she is simply spreading misinformation to make the forum look twice as bad. But I'll talk about her later.

Not a good look, Tantacrul. The website isn't illegal, that's why we're still here. There have been countless attempts to deplatform us, don't worry. Shout as much as you want.

Chapter six. Bobby C
[responding to "assisting those below 18"]

You claim that we knew who Bobby C was. We don't. It's as simple as that. It's all just really a fallacy. He was a member of your community too, right? So I could ask, hey why didn't this guy feel comfortable enough to open up in your server if you're such a great guy? I could play the same blame game but that doesn't really bring us anywhere. We can all point the fingers all day long and pretend this forum the only factor when it comes to someones decision to make a tragic choice. That's not the case and you know that. I'm just curious, why did you start caring about that guy when it was too late? Do you even care or is this video just an attempt to virtue signal what a great person you are? Your choice.

Chapter seven. Responsible reporting

Right at the very start, (at the 4 minute mark) Tantacrul claims that he wants to follow guidelines on media reporting about suicide and that's why he claims he doesn't want to mention the name of the website. But there is a just a problem. He already liked and followed several people on Twitter who have the name of the website in their bio. So it's unavoidable that his community will find its way to this forum.

View attachment 103733

If someone from his audience wants to dig a little bit deeper into the forum that's mentioned in his video, it's not gonna be very difficult to find it, thanks to him following people who use social media to spread awareness about this community. So let's make one thing clear. He intentionally exposes his audience to this forum, I consider this a little bit hypocritical. Just to make clear who acts responsible in this situation. And here is the thing, based on the screenshots you've included in your video, people will find this forum. What do you think happened every time when a news outlet covered the existence of this forum? It increased our member count.

It was a big mistake to talk about this forum because as I'm writing this thread, just a few hours after you published your video, we already had thousands of guests. The registration queue spiked, depressed people from your community want to join our forum. I'm asking you right now, given you think this is a very bad place: can you live with the guilt, when your audience makes accounts in this forum, a place that's apparently so bad, it needs political legislation to be taken down?

View attachment 103740

"Everyone's got their priority I suppose."

Your goal to follow media guidelines already backfired. And if you really think your video is gonna change anything, after the NYT already covered us on their front page, you're mistaken. I can defend my position, this community and the existence of this forum with a clear conscience. I've done this repeatedly in the past. And you know why I did that? Because I believe in something. I believe in individual autonomy and I believe in compassionate treatment of struggling people, so much, that I dedicate a large junk of my life for that cause. I don't spend a lot of time taking down what other people have built, I spent my time maintaining this community because I believe it's a good thing. And what are you doing? You're making a video concern trolling about this forum but I can assure you, if you read the messages I've read of people who were bedridden, haunted with so much physical pain they couldn't even leave their bed anymore, you'd think twice about posting such a video, throwing these people under the bus. No, if you have talked to these people, you would become an activist for compassionate treatment of these people and that includes the right to die. Because, here is the deal, for some people, the only relief from pain is death. That's why in my country we legalized assisted suicide to the fullest extend. The right to die is a neglected topic, almost every single country outlawed assisted suicide but there is a need for it, and that's why this forum has legitimacy and that's why people seek to participate in this forum. It's all about neglected needs. I live in one of the few countries that legalized assisted suicide. You don't. You don't want the forum to exist? Then get to work and make sure the people that write desperate messages to me don't have to use this forum to find peace in their last moments of their life.

Chapter eight. Who are the opponents of Sanctioned Suicide?
[responding to "taking action"]


A lot of your information is based on claims from people you call "grieving family members". The spearhead of these grieving parents is Kelli. She leads FixThe26 and is the most vocal opponent of this forum. I have thought about this for a long time but given that these people still successfully pretend to be victims, I have to break my silence about the behavior of these people. FixThe26 and the woman who is behind that organisation has a history of harassing, slandering, stalking, mocking and threatening members of our community. When she doxed Mahakali, a well-known member here, posting a picture of her on Twitter, it enraged the entire community. Let's take a look at her actions.

View attachment 103744

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I have censored the image. Kelli didn't censor it. It was an attempt to silence a critic. Someone who has been a member in the forum. I talked to Mahakali and she confirmed that this instance here greatly contributed to her suffering. This is enough to push someone over the edge. She died one month later.

View attachment 103741

Here she encouraged physical violence on the past site owner, saying he should get publicly executed. Lynch mob. This is a woman that's highly unstable and she has every reason to spread misinformation and outright lies about this community. I know you didn't know that, Tantacrul. But maybe you should have done your research. You think I made it up? Just recently her account twitter.com/fixthe26 got suspended, finally.

View attachment 103745

She engaged in so much targeted harassement and abuse. There are more victims. And all the other family members you included in your video, I'm not gonna name them to protect their identity, have engaged in similiar behavior. Someone celebrated when a member of our community committed suicide after months of abuse and bullying she directed towards that member. They love to play with the identity, leak names. They play the intimidation games really well. Jeremy, an ex-member who has done an interview for Fixthe26, has stalked and harassed a trans member of our community. The list is long. But this thread isn't about these people, I don't play these games. This thread is about your inability to do proper research and take everything they say for granted to craft a narrative that's dangerous to say the least.

But here is the deal. These people aren't victims. They didn't take their own life. They're predators. And it's important to know that not one single "grieving parent" so far has condemned what Kelli has done under that username, the opposite is the case. They all engage in the same kind of harassement towards members of this community. Kelli has already created a new account, twitter.com/SanctionedStop. She is actively cirumcumventing her Twitter ban. So once again, these people weaponized grief. They have spread so many lies about this community and when I took leadership of this community, they did the same to me.

And look. I'm not gonna tell you what to think. I'm a free thinker, not a cultist as you claim. You can make up your own mind. But you should ask yourself, why are the most vocal opponents of this forum predators who harass and stalk individuals like that?
Read this thread if you want to know more about these people and their shady behavior.

Last but not least, these screenshot of me supposedly attacking these people doesn't display anything I have written. As I said, these people have every reason to spread misinformation. Every time someone takes time to criticise them on Twitter, they claim it's me. As if I don't have better things to do than create account after account after account. And if you knew what else they think to know about me, you would know that they don't know anything about me. They're not gonna like that, but that's the truth.

Chapter nine. Online safety bill
[responding to "taking action"]

I already wrote a thread about this and if you value freedom of speech and privacy, you shouldn't support it.

Chapter ten. The mental health system
[responding to "Please seek help. You are not alone."]


Last but not least you finally address the flaws in our system. I'm impressed. Your video takes 46 minutes to watch and you dedicate a few seconds when the video is about to end about the mental health system. Did you address coercision as a common practice? Human rights violations? No. You just claim there are a few problems and that's it, for example that many of us can't talk about being suicidal because we get shamed. But do you even understand the scope of the problem? It's not just about shaming people, which is one of the reasons people would rather come to this forum to discuss deeply personal issues, it's about coercision on a systemic level. Human rights violations. You can get locked up if you tell your doctor that you're suicidal. Talking about your suicidality is a game with fire, I have played it before and you can burn yourself really badly.

So when you claim that this forum or the community has cult-like behavior, referring to members of this community spreading negative sentiments towards mental health institutions or their parents, there is a fucking reason. First of all, I never did any of that, okay. I'm not aware that we are discouraging people from talking to important people in their lives about their problems. But we also need to look at the circumstances of most members in this community. I just recently launched a poll, asking members if their parents contributed to their suffering because my parents certainly played their role when it comes to my struggles. And according to that poll, around 75%(!) of all respondents said their parents contributed in some way to their struggles. So wouldn't it only be a natural theme of this community that members distrust their parents in some way? You don't think there is a very personal reason why so many of us are anti-natalists? And most importantly, many of us dealt with traumatic experiencs around involuntary hospitalisation, then again, wouldn't it be only natural to have concerns around that, especially when they neglect our individual autonomy and our bodily integrity, which are very fundamental concepts of any civilisation? I had close friends of mine describe very horrible and traumatic experiences, which happened as a result of involuntary hospitalisation, some even said they would rather die(!) then ever go back. Maybe you're simply arguing from a position of ignorance, Tantacrul. And maybe you said all of these things about this community because you don't really care about the well being of suicidal people, about the horrible human rights violations we have to endure in these institutions when we open up. Maybe that's the reason why all of that was so easy for you to say but you forget that the people you blame are the same people you claim to care so much about. Odd, isn't it. Again, if people in this community have a negative opinion of their family members or of their doctors, there is certainly a reason for that.

And about mental health, here is a tweet from someone who has recently committed suicide. She was a suicide prevention activist.


Maybe, the problem with mental health isn't just that you get shamed a little bit if you open up, you donk. Look here.


Maybe that gives you a hint? Come on.

And look, I also want to get one point across. No amount of therapy fixes physical or mental pain, political discrimination and financial problems. There are some problems you can't fix with the mental health system because we live in a society that doesn't really care about struggling people. You want some examples from a trans woman?


So you're essentially defending that system with that video and blaming us for speaking out. You're a part of the problem. I live in a country with a high rate of involuntary hospitalisation and it's not cool. You really need to be careful with your words if you value your freedom, especially when you're suicidal and talking to a doctor.

And let's make some things clear, before I end my response to your poorly researched video. You ended your video on this note:
"Every step closer can connect someone to life and the help they want, sometimes those steps are big but sometimes, all it takes is a smile"

That's literally how you decided to end that video, your most meaningful video ever - with an empty platitude. Do you think people in this community who are in so much pain that they literally want to end their lives want your smile? It just proves all over again that you have no idea about the suffering that's happening in this community. You're blind and you'll never be able to understand. Do you think that was a smart way to end the video? It wasn't. You're the perfect example of everything that's wrong with this society. You just showed us every problem with suicide, the way we handle it both as a societal problem but also as a human right. And it shows me you don't care.

My compassion for people doesn't end with suicide prevention. Suicide prevention without addressing systemic issues that causes suidiality in the first place is meaningless. There are so many problems in this world, repeating the suicide hotline every time you talk about suicide is merely a bandaid but it doesn't fix anything. I want more people to live happy and decent lives but those who want a way out, should have a way out. 99% of the world outlawed assisted suicide and you point the finger to that one forum that that breaks the stigma around the right to die?

I'm done with my response. I think I made my case. And I think I was very clear about my opinion. It took a lot of time to write that. Thanks for reading.

The youtuber Tantacrul, also known in this forum as @Jonels, finally recorded a video about this community, in which he slandered and insulted our members and I've decided to respond to him directly. He has been obsessed with this forum for the last few weeks, creating alt-account after alt-account to force his narrative on other people. A little reminder on how all of this started, back in November 2022.









These are some snippets of his posts before I kicked him from this community. I made pretty clear in that thread that he is allowed to use this forum and express criticism towards this forum as long as it's fair and in good faith. It's obvious from the posts above that this wasn't the case so I gave him the boot. As a result of that, he announced that he would make a video about this forum. It's pretty obvious that all of this is done solely because he wants to cause damage to this community because we didn't give him a platform for his immature behavior. And look, Tantacrul, you might not mention me and this forum by name but I'll mention you by name.

Chapter one. The real philosophy of this website
[responding to "How does the site work?", "The philosophy of this site"]

What's the purpose of this forum? Obviously Tantacrul isn't really interested in portraying this forum in a fair light, the video he made obviously doesn't have the intention to start a discussion about the moral implications of this forum with fair arguments. It's a direct response of us banning him for repeatedly(!) violating the rules back in November when he insulted the community and claimed we are reponsible for the death of another person. It's supposed to be another hitpiece, similiar to the one in December 2021 from the NYT.

I already explained this here but the purpose of this forum is to provide a safe space for suicidal or struggling people in general to discuss deeply personal topics without censorship. That's the most straight-forward answer. I would add that this forum also provides a space to talk about these subjects without a forced narrative and that's one of the reasons why this place is so appealing to so many people. If you talk about your problems with anyone out there, it always comes with restrictions. If you say a little bit too loud that you are suicidal, you have to expect severe backlash and in the worst case, involuntary hospitalisation. I'll get to this point later, this is gonna be a very detailed response to the accusations directed at this community.
Another aspects what makes this forum so appealing to so many people is the fact that you can talk about your suicidality in this place without the risk of intervention. Instead, you receive honest compassion and empathy because we're all mind-liked people. We all suffer together in this place and we're all respecting each others boundaries. And that's important because I didn't experience that out there, I simply didn't. And we talk to each other with an even ground, which isn't the case when you talk to a psychiatrist for example, there is a very different power dynamic in such conversations than here. And this aspect of the forum, which has caused so many people to stay, hasn't even been mentioned once. This forum saves lives, without a doubt.

And there are people in this community that have been suffering for years for various reasons and unlike Tantacruls narrative, this community doesn't just consist of young people who are impulsive and eager to engage in harmful behavior without much thought. Tantacrul doesn't understand that nobody becomes suicidal in a vacuum. We all have valid reasons to be in this forum. He pretends that people are lured into this community for no reason and then convinced to kill themselves just for fun. That's obviously not true, I don't even know where to start when I want to debunk this claim. But reading through the registration queue and the posts in this forum from new members makes very clear to me that most members who come to this place have a long experience with mental or physical health problems. And if someone comes to this place, they specifically seek out a forum with our philosophy, for a reason. Let's make one thing clear, people register in this place voluntarily because they have needs they want to address in this forum. And that's okay.

Here are some scientific articles digging into the nature of this forum and you will realize rather quickly that scientists have called this community pro-choice repeatedly in the past. These articles provide a very nuanced insight into this community and I appreciated the work that's been done.
Now, let's dig into the next claim.
You claim that this forum consists of 4 philosophies around the nine minute mark.
1. Nihilism.
2. Anti-natalism
3. Pro-mortalism
4. Libertarianism

While the first two philosophies are actually quite common in this forum, pro-mortalism and libertarianism isn't. There might be individual members who have libertarian or efilist beliefs but to say that these are dominant philosophies as you claim is absurd. There is a reason why nihilism and anti-natalism are common themes in this forum, it's because depressed people tend to have a more negative outlook on life compared to the rest of the population. It's quite natural actually and it's not really a surprise that this community tends to be more nihilistic compared to the average population. And anti-natalism, which is also more common in this community, is a belief that's shared in this forum because many of us didn't have the best parents and sometimes, our own parents contributed to our suffering. But I'll go into details about this later.

I don't know why you claim pro-mortalism is a dominant philosophy in this forum, it's not. Again, there might be individual posters who hold a pro-mortalist belief but that's in no way representative for the entire community. And that's really important because you use this framing over the course of the entire video to portray this forum as some kind of cult that pushes people into suicide because we supposedly gain satisfaction from doing so. That's a lie. Most members here recognise that ending your life is a serious act and shouldn't be done without severe introspection. But we regularly applaud and celebrate when members announce that they're leaving the forum because they have recovered. That's a good thing. Shouldn't that be obvious? Regarding libertarianism, you seem to confuse a fundamental basic human right like self-determination for libertarianism and I don't know why how you came to that conclusion. For me, it tells me a lot about your ignorance around this topic. The right to die is a human right and the ECHR has agreed with me on that topic repeatedly.

View attachment 103738
European Center for Law and Justice

View attachment 103737
The International Journal Of Human Rights

And that's the most shared value in this forum: self-determination, you being the only decision maker when it comes to matters that affect your welfare. And for many of us in this forum, we consider the right to die a human right. This has nothing to do with libertarianism as you claim but everything with individual autonomy, those are very fundamental values of every civilisation. And you live in the UK, right? So I wonder, why don't you value the right to die as a fundamental right? Do you disagree that people should have the right to make deeply personal decisions about their own life without interference of the state? That would be a regressive idea. Are you regressive, Tantacrul? Do you want to go back to times where women and men didn't have the legal right to make their own decisions concerning their welfare? I don't really think so.

But your attempt to slander this forum as some kind of obscure cult already failed. I believe in the right to die as a human right. I think every person who consider their life unworthy of living for various reasons, and the most common reason is chronic mental and physical pain, should have a right to exercise their right to die without interference of the state. And this sentiment has just recently been reinforced by the Federal Consitutional Court of Germany, making clear in their court ruling that the right to die isn't "restriced to serious or terminal diseases or specific phases of life or of a disease". It would contradict the fact that the right to die "is rooted in human dignity" and therefore does "NOT require any additional explanation or justification". The court also made clear that the right to die "also includes the right to seek and use voluntarily offered help to do so and that's by far the most progressive court ruling to this day, validating the right to die as a basic human right.
It seems to me that your entire video is based on a misunderstanding of the right to die. You consider the right to die a controversial topic and people fighting for ways to exercise said rights must be malicious actors according to your video but that's not really the case if you do some research about the ethical consensus in various countries regarding suicide and assisted suicide too. That's very important. You claim that sharing ressources and information regarding ways to exercise our right to die is bad and evil, I say it's an act of compassion. Let's end this here and come back to this topic later.

Chapter two. What are my beliefs
[responding to "who is responsible for setting up this site?"]

You dedicate a lot of your video talking about my beliefs without actually knowing why I'm a member in this forum.
I'm a trans woman who has suffered their entire life. My childhood was ruined by neglectful parents and I've had a terrible upbringing. As a result of that I experienced suicidal ideation very early in my life. Being trans teached me that we live in a society that doesn't really give a fuck about marginalised people. That's why I have become a member in this forum. During the years I have realized that the right to die is a deeply neglected right, in the majority of the world it's surpressed and you're not really allowed to talk openly about suicide. If you want to know more about the stigma around mental health, just talk to a few members of this forum and ask them why they are active in this forum.
I'm secular. I don't believe in any religion. And I consider the right to die when you're suffering so much that you can't take it any longer a compassionate and empathic position. I think people like you who fear monger about this forum and take valid criticism to the extreme are not acting in good faith. You claim this forum has anything to do with inceldom. If you did some research, you would know that inceldom isn't really a common theme in this forum. You will find so many different groups with different backgrounds in this community, we're actually quite diverse and people are here for very different reason. We're also very heterogenic when it comes to ideology. You claim we're a cult and that we all believe in the same thing. That's not really true. We disagree on so many topics. Some members are left-wing, some are right-wing, some are socially conservative and some are more liberal. I had so many political discussions with people who had a different opinion than me and that's okay. We don't really have any common goals in this forum. The only thing that truly connects us is the need for a place to talk about deeply personal topics without censorship and a forced narrative and the idea that we should have a right to make deeply decisions without intervention of a third party. And that's it.

Here is the deal. I've been suicidal my entire life. I'm not just an admin, I'm a member myself. I'm a human. And I'm trans. I know how it feels to be trapped in this place. I know how it feels to suffer. I know how it feels when nobody seems to understand you. I know how it feels when you can't open up to anybody because you fear judgemental reactions and involuntary hospitalisation when you just say the wrong words. And I know the dire need to find relief from pain. Do you, Jonels? You, who claims to speak for all the suicidal people out there, do you represent their interests and their needs? Really?

Chapter three. Are we a cult?
[responding to "Don't seek help", "A note about cults", "Malicious actors"]

You claim that this community is a cult, giving us three indicators that this is the case.

First, a cult has a "highly peculiar" alternative ideology, which runs contrary to mainstream - you claim that applies to us.
Second, a cult has "ridicilous hostility" towards mental health professionals and the idea of treatment.
Third, a cult is notorious for cutting people off from their support networks.

I mean, honestly, these are quite vague and I haven't seen a clear definition of a cult yet that would match the purpose of this forum. You could apply the first point to any community that whose ideals aren't mainstream yet and especially with the combination of the second or even the third point, I see a common theme. You know, I'm a trans woman. And there is a long history of the media misrepresenting who we are. And you're doing a similiar thing right now. I mean, let's look at some headlines, right?


There are prominent vocal right-wingers who use exactly the same points to go after trans people. They call us the LGBT cult, they claim we groom children.


It's exactly the same thing. If you apply some bad faith, you can make any movement look bad with the right framing. And that's you're doing right now. Congrats Tantacrul, you learned from the best. Take very vague descriptions of a cult and apply them without any nuance and consideration for context to the entire community and ooops, we look like the bad guys.

What do you know about me? Nothing. But you have no problem smearing me as a bad-faith actor, as someone who simply acts on bad intentions. I mean, that's a common theme, you know. I belong to many subcultures that have endured the same slander. I'm transgender, that's why I immediately knew where your narrative is coming from. Do you see how the media hounds us trans people? The way you talk about this community of struggling people comes from the same place of judgement. We're victims, not perpetrators. You're just a different color of judgement. This time you're not lashing out against trans people who supposedly groom vulnerable people, you're lashing out against suicidal people who supposedly do the same. Suicidal people who appreciate this forum, people who voluntarily seeked this community as a source of support. And don't they have a right to have a safe space without the forced narratives, the same bullshit you're pulling right now on suicidal people? Oh no, "we need to save them", right? We need to get the nanny state to take down this community, right? That's what you're doing right now but you're not speaking for anyone. You're only speaking for yourself and your language is bigotry.

Next, you you said this community is an echo chamber of negative thoughts and nihilistic view points and you claim to prove that with how many examples? 5 posts? 6 posts? Are these representative examples of the entire community? You mentioned "Cake123" who has several thousand posts but why are they representative of the entire community? You're cherry picking members who suit your narrative, we have members in this forum with even more posts who disagree with that particular member. I just want to make something clear. We have 1'700'000 posts in this forum and we have over 26'000 members and you pick a few anecdotal(!) cases, intentionally leaving out important context to paint a narrative I've already debunked repeatedly before, for example when I responded to the NYT article. So if you think debunking your video is gonna be difficult, you're mistaken, Tantarcul. As I just said, we have several thousand members who came to this place because it gave them something. Do you speak for them? You claim this forum has 10 million monthly visitors on average, doesn't that send a message to you, Tantacrul? Do you really speak for people who are struggling or are you just merely pretending to be talking for them? Maybe that's the problem. Let's make one thing clear, you are talking about suicidal people and not(!) for them. You haven't really engaged with this community in good faith and maybe that's the reason why people rather come to us? Who would want to seek support from someone who slanders 25k suicidal people, people who are literally suffering so much, as a cult of predators? That's so telling. It's always the same with you people, it's only judgemental toxic slander. Every single time and you always think it's so brilliant...

There are several scientific studies researching this forum and none of them describe this community as pro-mortalist. We might have individual members, vocal members who subscribe to an efilist worldview but then again, this is a forum for adults so shouldn't they have a right to speak their mind? That's the point of this forum, right? Being able to speak your mind in a safe space, right? That's absolutely the contrary of a cult. And all the active members who clearly disagree with me on various subjects prove that point.

Next, you take one case of someone who has been convicted and sentenced for doing things to other people outside of this forum and imply that we are in some way responsible for this. Again, predators exist in every community.


They're on Facebook, Youtube, Twitter, they are on Twitch, they have been on MySpace - pretending that this has anything to do with this forum just proves you're ignorant about the nature of the internet. Yeah, this forum does attract a few bad apples due to the nature of this forum but keep in mind, you have have one(!) conviction for a forum with 25k members that has existed for over 5 years and the conviction itself has nothing to do with the purpose of this community. This guy deserved to get punished for violating other people for sexual pleasure. I have no problem saying that. But are predators overrepresented in this community or are you just framing this forum in a particularly bad way with one singular case of a crime? Again, this community has 25k members. How representative is your little anecdotal case then? Not very representative at all, am I right?
Yeah, that's what I thought. Of course a community like ours that has vulnerable people (which doesn't translate to "no individual autonomy" btw) attracts bad apples. If we have reasonable doubts about someones intention, we reserve our right to boot them from the community. But you can't reads minds, that's why you're assuming I'm a bad-faith actor, and I can't read minds, that's why I don't know the intentions of people who come to this community. It's as simple as that. Of course I could ban anyone I consider dubious but who wants to be in a community where I single-handedly rule who is allowed to be here and who isnt?

Chapter four. Protecting the vulnerable
[responding to "protecting the vulnerable"]

You bring up the fact that people need to agree that they are of sound mind when they use the website. You quote a professor who said "People... take their own lives when they can see no end to their pain, when they feel trapped by it and that there is no way. Like physical pain, there is only so much mental pain that we can withstand and, when we reach our limit, something has to give. Sadly, for too many people, it is life that gives".

What an absurd quote. First of all, it implies that any kind of pain is temporary and that relief from pain is never an option if it results in someone's decision to exercise their right to die. I think your quote doesn't actually delegitimize the forum, it legitimizes it, making clear that some pain is so difficult to endure that providing relief in the form of death is an act of mercy. That's the key philosophy behind assisted suicide. What's the problem here? How does that relate to the forum?

And you criticise that we don't protect vulnerable people enough. Well, luckily I already addressed that talking point in a previous thread. Being vulnerable doesn't mean you are unable to make rational decisions, see this study:

I have to reject your entire premise based on that scientific study. I think vulnerable people have a right to individual autonomy, so they also have right to make decisions they consider appropiate for the current situation. We both know protecting "vulnerabel people" is a scape goat to go after all people who are struggling, it's a deeply regressive notion, it's an extension of the "think of the children"-fallacy and it comes from a social-conservative interpretion of liberty. I don't even know why you bring up that topic in the first place, it's not a topic specific to this forum, the question if vulnerable people should roam the internet freely without any protections is a conversation we should have when we talk about safety on the internet in general and if it's okay to infringe on the individual autonomy of adults in certain situations. But as I said, I reject your premise and the study I've linked seems to agree with me.

You're also implying that a distressed mental state is only temporary but how do you know? We had member in this forum who experience strong depression and suicidality for years, myself included by the way. What's the point of that talking point? We simply don't know if someone can recover from their struggle. I know a lot of people can't. Are we just gonna throw them under the bus and prolong their life indefinitely even when they scream and yell for relief? Is that a compassionate position?

As I said, you shouldn't pretend to talk for suicidal people. You don't. You have no idea about the subject matter and you should have sticked to music.
How do you even know if people who register in this community don't have the mental capacity to use this forum? It's just an assumption, nothing else. I think people who specifically seek out the content of this forum know what they want. And most people here don't sound like they're in some kind of episode as you suggest. The vast majority of members can describe very well why they are here. If you just spent a little bit of time here instead of being a judgemental dork, you would realize that we have plenty of members who have been struggling for years without relief. And you're essentially sitting on your chair, probably not knowing what it means to suffer, and you scream you want more, you want more? More of what? More suffering? And you think that's the compassionate position?

Chapter five. Instruction threads and the "marketplace"
[responding to "the instructions thread", "the marketplace"]

You're implying we work with Exit. It's a conspiracy theory. The forum doesn't make any profit, period. Your claim that this forum is illegal in most countries is therefore incorrect. Nobody is allowed to sell anything on the forum. If we find out, we take action. Your claim that the forum works as a marketplace is therefore false as well. You shouldn't listen so much to Kelli. She doesn't understand anything and she is simply spreading misinformation to make the forum look twice as bad. But I'll talk about her later.

Not a good look, Tantacrul. The website isn't illegal, that's why we're still here. There have been countless attempts to deplatform us, don't worry. Shout as much as you want.

Chapter six. Bobby C
[responding to "assisting those below 18"]

You claim that we knew who Bobby C was. We don't. It's as simple as that. It's all just really a fallacy. He was a member of your community too, right? So I could ask, hey why didn't this guy feel comfortable enough to open up in your server if you're such a great guy? I could play the same blame game but that doesn't really bring us anywhere. We can all point the fingers all day long and pretend this forum the only factor when it comes to someones decision to make a tragic choice. That's not the case and you know that. I'm just curious, why did you start caring about that guy when it was too late? Do you even care or is this video just an attempt to virtue signal what a great person you are? Your choice.

Chapter seven. Responsible reporting

Right at the very start, (at the 4 minute mark) Tantacrul claims that he wants to follow guidelines on media reporting about suicide and that's why he claims he doesn't want to mention the name of the website. But there is a just a problem. He already liked and followed several people on Twitter who have the name of the website in their bio. So it's unavoidable that his community will find its way to this forum.

View attachment 103733

If someone from his audience wants to dig a little bit deeper into the forum that's mentioned in his video, it's not gonna be very difficult to find it, thanks to him following people who use social media to spread awareness about this community. So let's make one thing clear. He intentionally exposes his audience to this forum, I consider this a little bit hypocritical. Just to make clear who acts responsible in this situation. And here is the thing, based on the screenshots you've included in your video, people will find this forum. What do you think happened every time when a news outlet covered the existence of this forum? It increased our member count.

It was a big mistake to talk about this forum because as I'm writing this thread, just a few hours after you published your video, we already had thousands of guests. The registration queue spiked, depressed people from your community want to join our forum. I'm asking you right now, given you think this is a very bad place: can you live with the guilt, when your audience makes accounts in this forum, a place that's apparently so bad, it needs political legislation to be taken down?

View attachment 103740

"Everyone's got their priority I suppose."

Your goal to follow media guidelines already backfired. And if you really think your video is gonna change anything, after the NYT already covered us on their front page, you're mistaken. I can defend my position, this community and the existence of this forum with a clear conscience. I've done this repeatedly in the past. And you know why I did that? Because I believe in something. I believe in individual autonomy and I believe in compassionate treatment of struggling people, so much, that I dedicate a large junk of my life for that cause. I don't spend a lot of time taking down what other people have built, I spent my time maintaining this community because I believe it's a good thing. And what are you doing? You're making a video concern trolling about this forum but I can assure you, if you read the messages I've read of people who were bedridden, haunted with so much physical pain they couldn't even leave their bed anymore, you'd think twice about posting such a video, throwing these people under the bus. No, if you have talked to these people, you would become an activist for compassionate treatment of these people and that includes the right to die. Because, here is the deal, for some people, the only relief from pain is death. That's why in my country we legalized assisted suicide to the fullest extend. The right to die is a neglected topic, almost every single country outlawed assisted suicide but there is a need for it, and that's why this forum has legitimacy and that's why people seek to participate in this forum. It's all about neglected needs. I live in one of the few countries that legalized assisted suicide. You don't. You don't want the forum to exist? Then get to work and make sure the people that write desperate messages to me don't have to use this forum to find peace in their last moments of their life.

Chapter eight. Who are the opponents of Sanctioned Suicide?
[responding to "taking action"]


A lot of your information is based on claims from people you call "grieving family members". The spearhead of these grieving parents is Kelli. She leads FixThe26 and is the most vocal opponent of this forum. I have thought about this for a long time but given that these people still successfully pretend to be victims, I have to break my silence about the behavior of these people. FixThe26 and the woman who is behind that organisation has a history of harassing, slandering, stalking, mocking and threatening members of our community. When she doxed Mahakali, a well-known member here, posting a picture of her on Twitter, it enraged the entire community. Let's take a look at her actions.

View attachment 103744

View attachment 103743

I have censored the image. Kelli didn't censor it. It was an attempt to silence a critic. Someone who has been a member in the forum. I talked to Mahakali and she confirmed that this instance here greatly contributed to her suffering. This is enough to push someone over the edge. She died one month later.

View attachment 103741

Here she encouraged physical violence on the past site owner, saying he should get publicly executed. Lynch mob. This is a woman that's highly unstable and she has every reason to spread misinformation and outright lies about this community. I know you didn't know that, Tantacrul. But maybe you should have done your research. You think I made it up? Just recently her account twitter.com/fixthe26 got suspended, finally.

View attachment 103745

She engaged in so much targeted harassement and abuse. There are more victims. And all the other family members you included in your video, I'm not gonna name them to protect their identity, have engaged in similiar behavior. Someone celebrated when a member of our community committed suicide after months of abuse and bullying she directed towards that member. They love to play with the identity, leak names. They play the intimidation games really well. Jeremy, an ex-member who has done an interview for Fixthe26, has stalked and harassed a trans member of our community. The list is long. But this thread isn't about these people, I don't play these games. This thread is about your inability to do proper research and take everything they say for granted to craft a narrative that's dangerous to say the least.

But here is the deal. These people aren't victims. They didn't take their own life. They're predators. And it's important to know that not one single "grieving parent" so far has condemned what Kelli has done under that username, the opposite is the case. They all engage in the same kind of harassement towards members of this community. Kelli has already created a new account, twitter.com/SanctionedStop. She is actively cirumcumventing her Twitter ban. So once again, these people weaponized grief. They have spread so many lies about this community and when I took leadership of this community, they did the same to me.

And look. I'm not gonna tell you what to think. I'm a free thinker, not a cultist as you claim. You can make up your own mind. But you should ask yourself, why are the most vocal opponents of this forum predators who harass and stalk individuals like that?
Read this thread if you want to know more about these people and their shady behavior.

Last but not least, these screenshot of me supposedly attacking these people doesn't display anything I have written. As I said, these people have every reason to spread misinformation. Every time someone takes time to criticise them on Twitter, they claim it's me. As if I don't have better things to do than create account after account after account. And if you knew what else they think to know about me, you would know that they don't know anything about me. They're not gonna like that, but that's the truth.

Chapter nine. Online safety bill
[responding to "taking action"]

I already wrote a thread about this and if you value freedom of speech and privacy, you shouldn't support it.

Chapter ten. The mental health system
[responding to "Please seek help. You are not alone."]


Last but not least you finally address the flaws in our system. I'm impressed. Your video takes 46 minutes to watch and you dedicate a few seconds when the video is about to end about the mental health system. Did you address coercision as a common practice? Human rights violations? No. You just claim there are a few problems and that's it, for example that many of us can't talk about being suicidal because we get shamed. But do you even understand the scope of the problem? It's not just about shaming people, which is one of the reasons people would rather come to this forum to discuss deeply personal issues, it's about coercision on a systemic level. Human rights violations. You can get locked up if you tell your doctor that you're suicidal. Talking about your suicidality is a game with fire, I have played it before and you can burn yourself really badly.

So when you claim that this forum or the community has cult-like behavior, referring to members of this community spreading negative sentiments towards mental health institutions or their parents, there is a fucking reason. First of all, I never did any of that, okay. I'm not aware that we are discouraging people from talking to important people in their lives about their problems. But we also need to look at the circumstances of most members in this community. I just recently launched a poll, asking members if their parents contributed to their suffering because my parents certainly played their role when it comes to my struggles. And according to that poll, around 75%(!) of all respondents said their parents contributed in some way to their struggles. So wouldn't it only be a natural theme of this community that members distrust their parents in some way? You don't think there is a very personal reason why so many of us are anti-natalists? And most importantly, many of us dealt with traumatic experiencs around involuntary hospitalisation, then again, wouldn't it be only natural to have concerns around that, especially when they neglect our individual autonomy and our bodily integrity, which are very fundamental concepts of any civilisation? I had close friends of mine describe very horrible and traumatic experiences, which happened as a result of involuntary hospitalisation, some even said they would rather die(!) then ever go back. Maybe you're simply arguing from a position of ignorance, Tantacrul. And maybe you said all of these things about this community because you don't really care about the well being of suicidal people, about the horrible human rights violations we have to endure in these institutions when we open up. Maybe that's the reason why all of that was so easy for you to say but you forget that the people you blame are the same people you claim to care so much about. Odd, isn't it. Again, if people in this community have a negative opinion of their family members or of their doctors, there is certainly a reason for that.

And about mental health, here is a tweet from someone who has recently committed suicide. She was a suicide prevention activist.


Maybe, the problem with mental health isn't just that you get shamed a little bit if you open up, you donk. Look here.


Maybe that gives you a hint? Come on.

And look, I also want to get one point across. No amount of therapy fixes physical or mental pain, political discrimination and financial problems. There are some problems you can't fix with the mental health system because we live in a society that doesn't really care about struggling people. You want some examples from a trans woman?


So you're essentially defending that system with that video and blaming us for speaking out. You're a part of the problem. I live in a country with a high rate of involuntary hospitalisation and it's not cool. You really need to be careful with your words if you value your freedom, especially when you're suicidal and talking to a doctor.

And let's make some things clear, before I end my response to your poorly researched video. You ended your video on this note:
"Every step closer can connect someone to life and the help they want, sometimes those steps are big but sometimes, all it takes is a smile"

That's literally how you decided to end that video, your most meaningful video ever - with an empty platitude. Do you think people in this community who are in so much pain that they literally want to end their lives want your smile? It just proves all over again that you have no idea about the suffering that's happening in this community. You're blind and you'll never be able to understand. Do you think that was a smart way to end the video? It wasn't. You're the perfect example of everything that's wrong with this society. You just showed us every problem with suicide, the way we handle it both as a societal problem but also as a human right. And it shows me you don't care.

My compassion for people doesn't end with suicide prevention. Suicide prevention without addressing systemic issues that causes suidiality in the first place is meaningless. There are so many problems in this world, repeating the suicide hotline every time you talk about suicide is merely a bandaid but it doesn't fix anything. I want more people to live happy and decent lives but those who want a way out, should have a way out. 99% of the world outlawed assisted suicide and you point the finger to that one forum that that breaks the stigma around the right to die?

I'm done with my response. I think I made my case. And I think I was very clear about my opinion. It took a lot of time to write that. Thanks for reading.


Tantafool is not a good one xD, but he believes he is
 
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paroxysm

paroxysm

I Felt Nothing
Sep 17, 2023
101
"omg this site is literally encouraging suicide! let me give it a vague name and show screenshots of what it looks like so people won't go on it"
what was this dude expecting? is he dumb? if he really didn't want people going on this site he shouldn't have brought it attention at all or at least do a better job censoring it.
 
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S

Stadsjaap

New Member
Feb 26, 2023
1
Yeah, Tantacrul actually did a lot to add numbers to this forum. I think he should be thanked quite publicly.

People who have lost someone are quite prone to scapegoating. It is therefore easy for them to blame a forum such as this one without stopping to think that their loved one chose to come here. Nobody held a gun to their head to force them to come here. (In fact, that would probably not work, for obvious reasons.)

In any case, we all need to take cognizance that most people will not understand what this forum is for, and will therefore fight against it. In this regard, I am reminded of the Agent Training Program in The Matrix. It's not their fault. They are victims of blindness.
 
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Touhou

Touhou

2hu
Mar 9, 2023
331
Imo if Tantacrul truly cared about preventing people from committing suicide and wasn't there for the outrage media clicks he would've removed his video since it's really clear that much of the site's traffic is coming from it. At the very least, I'm glad he's not profiting from the death of another person; I put the video through a monetization checker and it turned out that the video is not monetized, to my surprise.

As for "Cake123" who he extensively mentions in the video, I have a few opinions about that.

First off, I don't think there's anything wrong with her not having cbt'ed. This is a supposed to be a pro-choice forum, not a pro-suicide one, and arguably I think people who don't intend to commit suicide (maybe people who aren't even suicidal) but support pro-choice ideals should be allowed on this forum. Hell, Philip Nitschke doesn't appear to be suicidal afaik but is advocating for assisted suicide. Though I'm admittedly not familiar with the criteria for getting account approval here. I def would draw the line if "Cake123" were encouraging people who aren't already certain to ctb to ctb, but I haven't been on the site enough to know.

But secondly, I did get the impression while reading recently forum posts that Cake123 is not pro-choice, quote "I asked 'Cake123' directly that if she was in charge of a switch to extinguish all life, would she flip the switch to the off position (to extinguish ALL life). She said she would in an instant". Cake123 does not want just the ability to kill herself, which I think is okay, but she wants to play God and determine the outcome for others. This isn't pro-choice. It's not pro-suicide either, but if in your morality you would murder others had you had the chance, you inherently want someone to choose death. Which makes me wary.

I have my biases and my beliefs differ from hers. My personal values believes that life and death as both neutrals, just two different but equal choices you can choose from, like how you can choose to drink Cola or Pepsi. I'll admit that I don't see existence as equivalent to suffering, but instead as a state where some people are destined to suffer and some are not, which in my day to day life seems to hold true. Some of my peers live wonderful lives, they have everything and are thriving, and I'm happy and not resentful that they are happy with their current state. Even though my state involves a lot of suffering, I don't assume that everyone's life is like mine and project my decisions about my life onto them. Cake123 doesn't seem to understand how someone can have preferences that differ from her own and that people have unique experiences. She thinks that she's enlightened for hating 'Cola', which is pretentious and rubs me the wrong way. "I wish there was something better than this site […] so that […] all those who have awareness about how existence is so dreadful can just be at peace."
Damn, take it to a publisher! /j

In all seriousness though, yeah, true. I have Cake ignored for that reason. Most of her posts just sound like borderline AI-generated yapping, anyways.
 
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snowcloud9

snowcloud9

I’m Cold
Sep 9, 2023
250
Damn, take it to a publisher! /j

In all seriousness though, yeah, true. I have Cake ignored for that reason. Most of her posts just sound like borderline AI-generated yapping, anyways.
LOL My university major is heavily writing-based, could you tell? I love textwalling. Thank you for taking the time to read my post, it means a lot to be heard <3 esp since my ramblings often go ignored irl
 
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A.W.O.L.

A.W.O.L.

Lonely Soul
Sep 20, 2023
3
I don't believe I've ever felt so outraged at a video in my entire life… It was disgusting to listen to that guy talk about things he clearly lacks the basic empathy skills to even begin to understand.

I've never been one to wish someone harm, and I'm not going to start today, so I wish for him to one day have enough coherent thought in his body to realise how incredibly self-absorbed his views are. But there's a 99.999% chance I'm being too optimistic here. People like that aren't interested in changing; they don't see a need to…

I felt attacked. I felt wronged. I was and still am disgusted by the way he simply decided to attack a community that is centred around support and understanding, making said community appear toxic and destructive in the eyes of everybody who's watched that video, simply because he could.

I'd like to think that he did it from a place of grief. That he did it to process whatever feelings of loss and impotence he felt at the loss of Bobby C.
But I can't think that, because I don't believe it. I believe he simply needed someone to hate… and he chose us…
 
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Captive_Mind515

Captive_Mind515

King or street sweeper, dance with grim reaper!
Jul 18, 2023
433
Imo if Tantacrul truly cared about preventing people from committing suicide and wasn't there for the outrage media clicks he would've removed his video since it's really clear that much of the site's traffic is coming from it. At the very least, I'm glad he's not profiting from the death of another person; I put the video through a monetization checker and it turned out that the video is not monetized, to my surprise.

As for "Cake123" who he extensively mentions in the video, I have a few opinions about that.

First off, I don't think there's anything wrong with her not having cbt'ed. This is a supposed to be a pro-choice forum, not a pro-suicide one, and arguably I think people who don't intend to commit suicide (maybe people who aren't even suicidal) but support pro-choice ideals should be allowed on this forum. Hell, Philip Nitschke doesn't appear to be suicidal afaik but is advocating for assisted suicide. Though I'm admittedly not familiar with the criteria for getting account approval here. I def would draw the line if "Cake123" were encouraging people who aren't already certain to ctb to ctb, but I haven't been on the site enough to know.

But secondly, I did get the impression while reading recently forum posts that Cake123 is not pro-choice, quote "I asked 'Cake123' directly that if she was in charge of a switch to extinguish all life, would she flip the switch to the off position (to extinguish ALL life). She said she would in an instant". Cake123 does not want just the ability to kill herself, which I think is okay, but she wants to play God and determine the outcome for others. This isn't pro-choice. It's not pro-suicide either, but if in your morality you would murder others had you had the chance, you inherently want someone to choose death. Which makes me wary.

I have my biases and my beliefs differ from hers. My personal values believes that life and death as both neutrals, just two different but equal choices you can choose from, like how you can choose to drink Cola or Pepsi. I'll admit that I don't see existence as equivalent to suffering, but instead as a state where some people are destined to suffer and some are not, which in my day to day life seems to hold true. Some of my peers live wonderful lives, they have everything and are thriving, and I'm happy and not resentful that they are happy with their current state. Even though my state involves a lot of suffering, I don't assume that everyone's life is like mine and project my decisions about my life onto them. Cake123 doesn't seem to understand how someone can have preferences that differ from her own and that people have unique experiences. She thinks that she's enlightened for hating 'Cola', which is pretentious and rubs me the wrong way. "I wish there was something better than this site […] so that […] all those who have awareness about how existence is so dreadful can just be at peace."

Like many things in life, you can choose to interpret that statement in different ways.

I choose to view Cake's statement about ending all human life, as coming from a place of empathy and caring for other people's suffering. If you knew that countless millions/billions of people were going to needlessly suffer after you've ctb'd yourself... and you could have prevented that from happening just by flicking a switch - and you chose not to - you could view that decision as being selfish and uncaring. But of course, you can make valid counter arguments as well.

What would the motivation of a pro-lifer be, for NOT flicking that switch? Because they think all life is valuable and worth saving, even the life of someone that is in constant pain and never ending suffering. So they are choosing NOT to flick the switch, in part, because they are okay with millions/billions of people needlessly suffering for THEIR perspective and philosophy on life.

It's probably best that none of us will ever have that sort of power anyway. And it's a bit of a pointless philosophical question really, because our personal biases are always going to play a role in how we view such decisions. This is very clearly illustrated by how the pro-life/anti-choice movement, just turns a blind eye to suffering because addressing it and giving adequate solutions, would mean diverging from their core outlook on life. It's an inherently selfish philosophy.

I agree that this site isn't about encouraging people to ctb, but rather just supporting their right to choose and being there to support their choice and not judge them for it. But people also have the right to choose how they view all sentient life and society as a whole. Even the pro-lifers have a right to take that position, even if it is very selfish. I just wish they would respect the view and choices of others more.
 
Deleted User#81194

Deleted User#81194

Staring into space
May 26, 2023
76
Imo if Tantacrul truly cared about preventing people from committing suicide and wasn't there for the outrage media clicks he would've removed his video since it's really clear that much of the site's traffic is coming from it. At the very least, I'm glad he's not profiting from the death of another person; I put the video through a monetization checker and it turned out that the video is not monetized, to my surprise.

As for "Cake123" who he extensively mentions in the video, I have a few opinions about that.

First off, I don't think there's anything wrong with her not having cbt'ed. This is a supposed to be a pro-choice forum, not a pro-suicide one, and arguably I think people who don't intend to commit suicide (maybe people who aren't even suicidal) but support pro-choice ideals should be allowed on this forum. Hell, Philip Nitschke doesn't appear to be suicidal afaik but is advocating for assisted suicide. Though I'm admittedly not familiar with the criteria for getting account approval here. I def would draw the line if "Cake123" were encouraging people who aren't already certain to ctb to ctb, but I haven't been on the site enough to know.

But secondly, I did get the impression while reading recently forum posts that Cake123 is not pro-choice, quote "I asked 'Cake123' directly that if she was in charge of a switch to extinguish all life, would she flip the switch to the off position (to extinguish ALL life). She said she would in an instant". Cake123 does not want just the ability to kill herself, which I think is okay, but she wants to play God and determine the outcome for others. This isn't pro-choice. It's not pro-suicide either, but if in your morality you would murder others had you had the chance, you inherently want someone to choose death. Which makes me wary.

I have my biases and my beliefs differ from hers. My personal values believes that life and death as both neutrals, just two different but equal choices you can choose from, like how you can choose to drink Cola or Pepsi. I'll admit that I don't see existence as equivalent to suffering, but instead as a state where some people are destined to suffer and some are not, which in my day to day life seems to hold true. Some of my peers live wonderful lives, they have everything and are thriving, and I'm happy and not resentful that they are happy with their current state. Even though my state involves a lot of suffering, I don't assume that everyone's life is like mine and project my decisions about my life onto them. Cake123 doesn't seem to understand how someone can have preferences that differ from her own and that people have unique experiences. She thinks that she's enlightened for hating 'Cola', which is pretentious and rubs me the wrong way. "I wish there was something better than this site […] so that […] all those who have awareness about how existence is so dreadful can just be at peace."
FC believes existence was a mistake, because it's all meaningless in the end, since everything will die out eventually anyways. Therefore it wouldn't matter if the switch gets flipped off now or later, so it is thus justified to end it all If there was an option to as it wouldn't make a difference in the grand scheme of things.

Those who cling on to hope are delusional to the realities of this world, death and suffering an inevitable part of existence. This notion of "playing God" is mere drivel, at anytime someone who has more power over you can take control of your life or choose to end it abruptly -- just ask those who've been through war.

The logic is cold and cynical, but such is the fate of such ideations.
 
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Deleted User#81194

Deleted User#81194

Staring into space
May 26, 2023
76
Like many things in life, you can choose to interpret that statement in different ways.

I choose to view Cake's statement about ending all human life, as coming from a place of empathy and caring for other people's suffering. If you knew that countless millions/billions of people were going to needlessly suffer after you've ctb'd yourself... and you could have prevented that from happening just by flicking a switch - and you chose not to - you could view that decision as being selfish and uncaring. But of course, you can make valid counter arguments as well.

What would the motivation of a pro-lifer be, for NOT flicking that switch? Because they think all life is valuable and worth saving, even the life of someone that is in constant pain and never ending suffering. So they are choosing NOT to flick the switch, in part, because they are okay with millions/billions of people needlessly suffering for THEIR perspective and philosophy on life.

It's probably best that none of us will ever have that sort of power anyway. And it's a bit of a pointless philosophical question really, because our personal biases are always going to play a role in how we view such decisions. This is very clearly illustrated by how the pro-life/anti-choice movement, just turns a blind eye to suffering because addressing it and giving adequate solutions, would mean diverging from their core outlook on life. It's an inherently selfish philosophy.

I agree that this site isn't about encouraging people to ctb, but rather just supporting their right to choose and being there to support their choice and not judge them for it. But people also have the right to choose how they view all sentient life and society as a whole. Even the pro-lifers have a right to take that position, even if it is very selfish. I just wish they would respect the view and choices of others more.
Hmmm, a pro life prospective? Depending on the extent of the suffering, be it physical or psychological there could be various solutions such as pain killers or antidepressants (which of course would be admitted involuntarily), though each solution would be different per individual; you'd need to engineer a path for them to see "hope" or a new found meaning to live for through extensive therapy (of which rules would need to be changed for cases of suicidal ideation).

This act of "mercy killing" to put people out of their misery is frankly quite lazy (intellectually) it's not a real solution to their problem, but a mere escape. Could you imagine if that's how we solved all of our sickness/disease problems? Medicine/cures for anything wouldn't exist.

The person(s) suffering have to be treated like patients and thoroughly investigated for causes that led to such conditions and treated with the utmost pragmatic care.

Voluntary death is a way of giving up, not continuing, people tend to choose those paths because they see no point/way(s) to improve their unique circumstances.

Why would someone care about wanting to help/save such people? Because life is inherently valuable and worth saving? no. Because they're simply not a sociopath/psychopaths and are empathetic, it could be they have personal or para social connections to said people. who really knows, reasons tend to vary. Though the goal remains the same, to end their suffering. To put it in a more analogous perspective, if you wanted to stop a person from hunger, you would give them food and not poison to halt the body from eating itself.

Technology has enabled much solutions and coping mechanism for most the world's suffering, though not everyone has access to them and those that do are simply not interested enough. Who could care for billions of strangers anyways, when you can just care for your friends and family -- you're not Jesus for crying out loud!

That's probably how most would see it, but me personally, if I had such powers I wouldn't bother doing anything at all. Nothing would change, life will continue as it always did.
 
LaVieEnRose

LaVieEnRose

Illuminated
Jul 23, 2022
3,842
Like many things in life, you can choose to interpret that statement in different ways.

I choose to view Cake's statement about ending all human life, as coming from a place of empathy and caring for other people's suffering. If you knew that countless millions/billions of people were going to needlessly suffer after you've ctb'd yourself... and you could have prevented that from happening just by flicking a switch - and you chose not to - you could view that decision as being selfish and uncaring. But of course, you can make valid counter arguments as well.
It's faux empathy. True principles of empathy also state that someone who enjoys their existence might not appreciate having it snuffed out. Basic application of the Golden Rule.
It's probably best that none of us will ever have that sort of power anyway. And it's a bit of a pointless philosophical question really, because our personal biases are always going to play a role in how we view such decisions.
I don't know, I think the right answer isn't really hard to discern. Anyone who can't just has a very warped mind. But of course if people just don't care then there's nothing that can make them.
 
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TheSource

TheSource

From the Divine we came, to the Divine we return.
Sep 25, 2023
123
based on the screenshots you've included in your video, people will find this forum.
I'd never heard of him before, but his video covering Sanctioned Suicide showed up on my feed about a week ago. His video is how I found out about the site. Those screenshots are how I found the forum itself. I joined almost immediately.
 
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Captive_Mind515

Captive_Mind515

King or street sweeper, dance with grim reaper!
Jul 18, 2023
433
It's faux empathy. True principles of empathy also state that someone who enjoys their existence might not appreciate having it snuffed out. Basic application of the Golden Rule.

I don't know, I think the right answer isn't really hard to discern. Anyone who can't just has a very warped mind. But of course if people just don't care then there's nothing that can make them.

As I said, I can understand both sides of the argument. And there is merit in both perspectives.

I think you make a valid point above. But I disagree that the scenario is simple or completely black and white in nature. It's a complicated philosophical question.
 
F

Faith_No_more

Member
Sep 30, 2023
20
Why do they never understand some people just don't enjoy being here? Just because they like living doesn't mean all do.
 
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crxssedho3

crxssedho3

Insecure security
Sep 30, 2023
39
The youtuber Tantacrul, also known in this forum as @Jonels, finally recorded a video about this community, in which he slandered and insulted our members and I've decided to respond to him directly. He has been obsessed with this forum for the last few weeks, creating alt-account after alt-account to force his narrative on other people. A little reminder on how all of this started, back in November 2022.









These are some snippets of his posts before I kicked him from this community. I made pretty clear in that thread that he is allowed to use this forum and express criticism towards this forum as long as it's fair and in good faith. It's obvious from the posts above that this wasn't the case so I gave him the boot. As a result of that, he announced that he would make a video about this forum. It's pretty obvious that all of this is done solely because he wants to cause damage to this community because we didn't give him a platform for his immature behavior. And look, Tantacrul, you might not mention me and this forum by name but I'll mention you by name.

Chapter one. The real philosophy of this website
[responding to "How does the site work?", "The philosophy of this site"]

What's the purpose of this forum? Obviously Tantacrul isn't really interested in portraying this forum in a fair light, the video he made obviously doesn't have the intention to start a discussion about the moral implications of this forum with fair arguments. It's a direct response of us banning him for repeatedly(!) violating the rules back in November when he insulted the community and claimed we are reponsible for the death of another person. It's supposed to be another hitpiece, similiar to the one in December 2021 from the NYT.

I already explained this here but the purpose of this forum is to provide a safe space for suicidal or struggling people in general to discuss deeply personal topics without censorship. That's the most straight-forward answer. I would add that this forum also provides a space to talk about these subjects without a forced narrative and that's one of the reasons why this place is so appealing to so many people. If you talk about your problems with anyone out there, it always comes with restrictions. If you say a little bit too loud that you are suicidal, you have to expect severe backlash and in the worst case, involuntary hospitalisation. I'll get to this point later, this is gonna be a very detailed response to the accusations directed at this community.
Another aspects what makes this forum so appealing to so many people is the fact that you can talk about your suicidality in this place without the risk of intervention. Instead, you receive honest compassion and empathy because we're all mind-liked people. We all suffer together in this place and we're all respecting each others boundaries. And that's important because I didn't experience that out there, I simply didn't. And we talk to each other with an even ground, which isn't the case when you talk to a psychiatrist for example, there is a very different power dynamic in such conversations than here. And this aspect of the forum, which has caused so many people to stay, hasn't even been mentioned once. This forum saves lives, without a doubt.

And there are people in this community that have been suffering for years for various reasons and unlike Tantacruls narrative, this community doesn't just consist of young people who are impulsive and eager to engage in harmful behavior without much thought. Tantacrul doesn't understand that nobody becomes suicidal in a vacuum. We all have valid reasons to be in this forum. He pretends that people are lured into this community for no reason and then convinced to kill themselves just for fun. That's obviously not true, I don't even know where to start when I want to debunk this claim. But reading through the registration queue and the posts in this forum from new members makes very clear to me that most members who come to this place have a long experience with mental or physical health problems. And if someone comes to this place, they specifically seek out a forum with our philosophy, for a reason. Let's make one thing clear, people register in this place voluntarily because they have needs they want to address in this forum. And that's okay.

Here are some scientific articles digging into the nature of this forum and you will realize rather quickly that scientists have called this community pro-choice repeatedly in the past. These articles provide a very nuanced insight into this community and I appreciated the work that's been done.
Now, let's dig into the next claim.
You claim that this forum consists of 4 philosophies around the nine minute mark.
1. Nihilism.
2. Anti-natalism
3. Pro-mortalism
4. Libertarianism

While the first two philosophies are actually quite common in this forum, pro-mortalism and libertarianism isn't. There might be individual members who have libertarian or efilist beliefs but to say that these are dominant philosophies as you claim is absurd. There is a reason why nihilism and anti-natalism are common themes in this forum, it's because depressed people tend to have a more negative outlook on life compared to the rest of the population. It's quite natural actually and it's not really a surprise that this community tends to be more nihilistic compared to the average population. And anti-natalism, which is also more common in this community, is a belief that's shared in this forum because many of us didn't have the best parents and sometimes, our own parents contributed to our suffering. But I'll go into details about this later.

I don't know why you claim pro-mortalism is a dominant philosophy in this forum, it's not. Again, there might be individual posters who hold a pro-mortalist belief but that's in no way representative for the entire community. And that's really important because you use this framing over the course of the entire video to portray this forum as some kind of cult that pushes people into suicide because we supposedly gain satisfaction from doing so. That's a lie. Most members here recognise that ending your life is a serious act and shouldn't be done without severe introspection. But we regularly applaud and celebrate when members announce that they're leaving the forum because they have recovered. That's a good thing. Shouldn't that be obvious? Regarding libertarianism, you seem to confuse a fundamental basic human right like self-determination for libertarianism and I don't know why how you came to that conclusion. For me, it tells me a lot about your ignorance around this topic. The right to die is a human right and the ECHR has agreed with me on that topic repeatedly.

View attachment 103738
European Center for Law and Justice

View attachment 103737
The International Journal Of Human Rights

And that's the most shared value in this forum: self-determination, you being the only decision maker when it comes to matters that affect your welfare. And for many of us in this forum, we consider the right to die a human right. This has nothing to do with libertarianism as you claim but everything with individual autonomy, those are very fundamental values of every civilisation. And you live in the UK, right? So I wonder, why don't you value the right to die as a fundamental right? Do you disagree that people should have the right to make deeply personal decisions about their own life without interference of the state? That would be a regressive idea. Are you regressive, Tantacrul? Do you want to go back to times where women and men didn't have the legal right to make their own decisions concerning their welfare? I don't really think so.

But your attempt to slander this forum as some kind of obscure cult already failed. I believe in the right to die as a human right. I think every person who consider their life unworthy of living for various reasons, and the most common reason is chronic mental and physical pain, should have a right to exercise their right to die without interference of the state. And this sentiment has just recently been reinforced by the Federal Consitutional Court of Germany, making clear in their court ruling that the right to die isn't "restriced to serious or terminal diseases or specific phases of life or of a disease". It would contradict the fact that the right to die "is rooted in human dignity" and therefore does "NOT require any additional explanation or justification". The court also made clear that the right to die "also includes the right to seek and use voluntarily offered help to do so and that's by far the most progressive court ruling to this day, validating the right to die as a basic human right.
It seems to me that your entire video is based on a misunderstanding of the right to die. You consider the right to die a controversial topic and people fighting for ways to exercise said rights must be malicious actors according to your video but that's not really the case if you do some research about the ethical consensus in various countries regarding suicide and assisted suicide too. That's very important. You claim that sharing ressources and information regarding ways to exercise our right to die is bad and evil, I say it's an act of compassion. Let's end this here and come back to this topic later.

Chapter two. What are my beliefs
[responding to "who is responsible for setting up this site?"]

You dedicate a lot of your video talking about my beliefs without actually knowing why I'm a member in this forum.
I'm a trans woman who has suffered their entire life. My childhood was ruined by neglectful parents and I've had a terrible upbringing. As a result of that I experienced suicidal ideation very early in my life. Being trans teached me that we live in a society that doesn't really give a fuck about marginalised people. That's why I have become a member in this forum. During the years I have realized that the right to die is a deeply neglected right, in the majority of the world it's surpressed and you're not really allowed to talk openly about suicide. If you want to know more about the stigma around mental health, just talk to a few members of this forum and ask them why they are active in this forum.
I'm secular. I don't believe in any religion. And I consider the right to die when you're suffering so much that you can't take it any longer a compassionate and empathic position. I think people like you who fear monger about this forum and take valid criticism to the extreme are not acting in good faith. You claim this forum has anything to do with inceldom. If you did some research, you would know that inceldom isn't really a common theme in this forum. You will find so many different groups with different backgrounds in this community, we're actually quite diverse and people are here for very different reason. We're also very heterogenic when it comes to ideology. You claim we're a cult and that we all believe in the same thing. That's not really true. We disagree on so many topics. Some members are left-wing, some are right-wing, some are socially conservative and some are more liberal. I had so many political discussions with people who had a different opinion than me and that's okay. We don't really have any common goals in this forum. The only thing that truly connects us is the need for a place to talk about deeply personal topics without censorship and a forced narrative and the idea that we should have a right to make deeply decisions without intervention of a third party. And that's it.

Here is the deal. I've been suicidal my entire life. I'm not just an admin, I'm a member myself. I'm a human. And I'm trans. I know how it feels to be trapped in this place. I know how it feels to suffer. I know how it feels when nobody seems to understand you. I know how it feels when you can't open up to anybody because you fear judgemental reactions and involuntary hospitalisation when you just say the wrong words. And I know the dire need to find relief from pain. Do you, Jonels? You, who claims to speak for all the suicidal people out there, do you represent their interests and their needs? Really?

Chapter three. Are we a cult?
[responding to "Don't seek help", "A note about cults", "Malicious actors"]

You claim that this community is a cult, giving us three indicators that this is the case.

First, a cult has a "highly peculiar" alternative ideology, which runs contrary to mainstream - you claim that applies to us.
Second, a cult has "ridicilous hostility" towards mental health professionals and the idea of treatment.
Third, a cult is notorious for cutting people off from their support networks.

I mean, honestly, these are quite vague and I haven't seen a clear definition of a cult yet that would match the purpose of this forum. You could apply the first point to any community that whose ideals aren't mainstream yet and especially with the combination of the second or even the third point, I see a common theme. You know, I'm a trans woman. And there is a long history of the media misrepresenting who we are. And you're doing a similiar thing right now. I mean, let's look at some headlines, right?


There are prominent vocal right-wingers who use exactly the same points to go after trans people. They call us the LGBT cult, they claim we groom children.


It's exactly the same thing. If you apply some bad faith, you can make any movement look bad with the right framing. And that's you're doing right now. Congrats Tantacrul, you learned from the best. Take very vague descriptions of a cult and apply them without any nuance and consideration for context to the entire community and ooops, we look like the bad guys.

What do you know about me? Nothing. But you have no problem smearing me as a bad-faith actor, as someone who simply acts on bad intentions. I mean, that's a common theme, you know. I belong to many subcultures that have endured the same slander. I'm transgender, that's why I immediately knew where your narrative is coming from. Do you see how the media hounds us trans people? The way you talk about this community of struggling people comes from the same place of judgement. We're victims, not perpetrators. You're just a different color of judgement. This time you're not lashing out against trans people who supposedly groom vulnerable people, you're lashing out against suicidal people who supposedly do the same. Suicidal people who appreciate this forum, people who voluntarily seeked this community as a source of support. And don't they have a right to have a safe space without the forced narratives, the same bullshit you're pulling right now on suicidal people? Oh no, "we need to save them", right? We need to get the nanny state to take down this community, right? That's what you're doing right now but you're not speaking for anyone. You're only speaking for yourself and your language is bigotry.

Next, you you said this community is an echo chamber of negative thoughts and nihilistic view points and you claim to prove that with how many examples? 5 posts? 6 posts? Are these representative examples of the entire community? You mentioned "Cake123" who has several thousand posts but why are they representative of the entire community? You're cherry picking members who suit your narrative, we have members in this forum with even more posts who disagree with that particular member. I just want to make something clear. We have 1'700'000 posts in this forum and we have over 26'000 members and you pick a few anecdotal(!) cases, intentionally leaving out important context to paint a narrative I've already debunked repeatedly before, for example when I responded to the NYT article. So if you think debunking your video is gonna be difficult, you're mistaken, Tantarcul. As I just said, we have several thousand members who came to this place because it gave them something. Do you speak for them? You claim this forum has 10 million monthly visitors on average, doesn't that send a message to you, Tantacrul? Do you really speak for people who are struggling or are you just merely pretending to be talking for them? Maybe that's the problem. Let's make one thing clear, you are talking about suicidal people and not(!) for them. You haven't really engaged with this community in good faith and maybe that's the reason why people rather come to us? Who would want to seek support from someone who slanders 25k suicidal people, people who are literally suffering so much, as a cult of predators? That's so telling. It's always the same with you people, it's only judgemental toxic slander. Every single time and you always think it's so brilliant...

There are several scientific studies researching this forum and none of them describe this community as pro-mortalist. We might have individual members, vocal members who subscribe to an efilist worldview but then again, this is a forum for adults so shouldn't they have a right to speak their mind? That's the point of this forum, right? Being able to speak your mind in a safe space, right? That's absolutely the contrary of a cult. And all the active members who clearly disagree with me on various subjects prove that point.

Next, you take one case of someone who has been convicted and sentenced for doing things to other people outside of this forum and imply that we are in some way responsible for this. Again, predators exist in every community.


They're on Facebook, Youtube, Twitter, they are on Twitch, they have been on MySpace - pretending that this has anything to do with this forum just proves you're ignorant about the nature of the internet. Yeah, this forum does attract a few bad apples due to the nature of this forum but keep in mind, you have have one(!) conviction for a forum with 25k members that has existed for over 5 years and the conviction itself has nothing to do with the purpose of this community. This guy deserved to get punished for violating other people for sexual pleasure. I have no problem saying that. But are predators overrepresented in this community or are you just framing this forum in a particularly bad way with one singular case of a crime? Again, this community has 25k members. How representative is your little anecdotal case then? Not very representative at all, am I right?
Yeah, that's what I thought. Of course a community like ours that has vulnerable people (which doesn't translate to "no individual autonomy" btw) attracts bad apples. If we have reasonable doubts about someones intention, we reserve our right to boot them from the community. But you can't reads minds, that's why you're assuming I'm a bad-faith actor, and I can't read minds, that's why I don't know the intentions of people who come to this community. It's as simple as that. Of course I could ban anyone I consider dubious but who wants to be in a community where I single-handedly rule who is allowed to be here and who isnt?

Chapter four. Protecting the vulnerable
[responding to "protecting the vulnerable"]

You bring up the fact that people need to agree that they are of sound mind when they use the website. You quote a professor who said "People... take their own lives when they can see no end to their pain, when they feel trapped by it and that there is no way. Like physical pain, there is only so much mental pain that we can withstand and, when we reach our limit, something has to give. Sadly, for too many people, it is life that gives".

What an absurd quote. First of all, it implies that any kind of pain is temporary and that relief from pain is never an option if it results in someone's decision to exercise their right to die. I think your quote doesn't actually delegitimize the forum, it legitimizes it, making clear that some pain is so difficult to endure that providing relief in the form of death is an act of mercy. That's the key philosophy behind assisted suicide. What's the problem here? How does that relate to the forum?

And you criticise that we don't protect vulnerable people enough. Well, luckily I already addressed that talking point in a previous thread. Being vulnerable doesn't mean you are unable to make rational decisions, see this study:

I have to reject your entire premise based on that scientific study. I think vulnerable people have a right to individual autonomy, so they also have right to make decisions they consider appropiate for the current situation. We both know protecting "vulnerabel people" is a scape goat to go after all people who are struggling, it's a deeply regressive notion, it's an extension of the "think of the children"-fallacy and it comes from a social-conservative interpretion of liberty. I don't even know why you bring up that topic in the first place, it's not a topic specific to this forum, the question if vulnerable people should roam the internet freely without any protections is a conversation we should have when we talk about safety on the internet in general and if it's okay to infringe on the individual autonomy of adults in certain situations. But as I said, I reject your premise and the study I've linked seems to agree with me.

You're also implying that a distressed mental state is only temporary but how do you know? We had member in this forum who experience strong depression and suicidality for years, myself included by the way. What's the point of that talking point? We simply don't know if someone can recover from their struggle. I know a lot of people can't. Are we just gonna throw them under the bus and prolong their life indefinitely even when they scream and yell for relief? Is that a compassionate position?

As I said, you shouldn't pretend to talk for suicidal people. You don't. You have no idea about the subject matter and you should have sticked to music.
How do you even know if people who register in this community don't have the mental capacity to use this forum? It's just an assumption, nothing else. I think people who specifically seek out the content of this forum know what they want. And most people here don't sound like they're in some kind of episode as you suggest. The vast majority of members can describe very well why they are here. If you just spent a little bit of time here instead of being a judgemental dork, you would realize that we have plenty of members who have been struggling for years without relief. And you're essentially sitting on your chair, probably not knowing what it means to suffer, and you scream you want more, you want more? More of what? More suffering? And you think that's the compassionate position?

Chapter five. Instruction threads and the "marketplace"
[responding to "the instructions thread", "the marketplace"]

You're implying we work with Exit. It's a conspiracy theory. The forum doesn't make any profit, period. Your claim that this forum is illegal in most countries is therefore incorrect. Nobody is allowed to sell anything on the forum. If we find out, we take action. Your claim that the forum works as a marketplace is therefore false as well. You shouldn't listen so much to Kelli. She doesn't understand anything and she is simply spreading misinformation to make the forum look twice as bad. But I'll talk about her later.

Not a good look, Tantacrul. The website isn't illegal, that's why we're still here. There have been countless attempts to deplatform us, don't worry. Shout as much as you want.

Chapter six. Bobby C
[responding to "assisting those below 18"]

You claim that we knew who Bobby C was. We don't. It's as simple as that. It's all just really a fallacy. He was a member of your community too, right? So I could ask, hey why didn't this guy feel comfortable enough to open up in your server if you're such a great guy? I could play the same blame game but that doesn't really bring us anywhere. We can all point the fingers all day long and pretend this forum the only factor when it comes to someones decision to make a tragic choice. That's not the case and you know that. I'm just curious, why did you start caring about that guy when it was too late? Do you even care or is this video just an attempt to virtue signal what a great person you are? Your choice.

Chapter seven. Responsible reporting

Right at the very start, (at the 4 minute mark) Tantacrul claims that he wants to follow guidelines on media reporting about suicide and that's why he claims he doesn't want to mention the name of the website. But there is a just a problem. He already liked and followed several people on Twitter who have the name of the website in their bio. So it's unavoidable that his community will find its way to this forum.

View attachment 103733

If someone from his audience wants to dig a little bit deeper into the forum that's mentioned in his video, it's not gonna be very difficult to find it, thanks to him following people who use social media to spread awareness about this community. So let's make one thing clear. He intentionally exposes his audience to this forum, I consider this a little bit hypocritical. Just to make clear who acts responsible in this situation. And here is the thing, based on the screenshots you've included in your video, people will find this forum. What do you think happened every time when a news outlet covered the existence of this forum? It increased our member count.

It was a big mistake to talk about this forum because as I'm writing this thread, just a few hours after you published your video, we already had thousands of guests. The registration queue spiked, depressed people from your community want to join our forum. I'm asking you right now, given you think this is a very bad place: can you live with the guilt, when your audience makes accounts in this forum, a place that's apparently so bad, it needs political legislation to be taken down?

View attachment 103740

"Everyone's got their priority I suppose."

Your goal to follow media guidelines already backfired. And if you really think your video is gonna change anything, after the NYT already covered us on their front page, you're mistaken. I can defend my position, this community and the existence of this forum with a clear conscience. I've done this repeatedly in the past. And you know why I did that? Because I believe in something. I believe in individual autonomy and I believe in compassionate treatment of struggling people, so much, that I dedicate a large junk of my life for that cause. I don't spend a lot of time taking down what other people have built, I spent my time maintaining this community because I believe it's a good thing. And what are you doing? You're making a video concern trolling about this forum but I can assure you, if you read the messages I've read of people who were bedridden, haunted with so much physical pain they couldn't even leave their bed anymore, you'd think twice about posting such a video, throwing these people under the bus. No, if you have talked to these people, you would become an activist for compassionate treatment of these people and that includes the right to die. Because, here is the deal, for some people, the only relief from pain is death. That's why in my country we legalized assisted suicide to the fullest extend. The right to die is a neglected topic, almost every single country outlawed assisted suicide but there is a need for it, and that's why this forum has legitimacy and that's why people seek to participate in this forum. It's all about neglected needs. I live in one of the few countries that legalized assisted suicide. You don't. You don't want the forum to exist? Then get to work and make sure the people that write desperate messages to me don't have to use this forum to find peace in their last moments of their life.

Chapter eight. Who are the opponents of Sanctioned Suicide?
[responding to "taking action"]


A lot of your information is based on claims from people you call "grieving family members". The spearhead of these grieving parents is Kelli. She leads FixThe26 and is the most vocal opponent of this forum. I have thought about this for a long time but given that these people still successfully pretend to be victims, I have to break my silence about the behavior of these people. FixThe26 and the woman who is behind that organisation has a history of harassing, slandering, stalking, mocking and threatening members of our community. When she doxed Mahakali, a well-known member here, posting a picture of her on Twitter, it enraged the entire community. Let's take a look at her actions.

View attachment 103744

View attachment 103743

I have censored the image. Kelli didn't censor it. It was an attempt to silence a critic. Someone who has been a member in the forum. I talked to Mahakali and she confirmed that this instance here greatly contributed to her suffering. This is enough to push someone over the edge. She died one month later.

View attachment 103741

Here she encouraged physical violence on the past site owner, saying he should get publicly executed. Lynch mob. This is a woman that's highly unstable and she has every reason to spread misinformation and outright lies about this community. I know you didn't know that, Tantacrul. But maybe you should have done your research. You think I made it up? Just recently her account twitter.com/fixthe26 got suspended, finally.

View attachment 103745

She engaged in so much targeted harassement and abuse. There are more victims. And all the other family members you included in your video, I'm not gonna name them to protect their identity, have engaged in similiar behavior. Someone celebrated when a member of our community committed suicide after months of abuse and bullying she directed towards that member. They love to play with the identity, leak names. They play the intimidation games really well. Jeremy, an ex-member who has done an interview for Fixthe26, has stalked and harassed a trans member of our community. The list is long. But this thread isn't about these people, I don't play these games. This thread is about your inability to do proper research and take everything they say for granted to craft a narrative that's dangerous to say the least.

But here is the deal. These people aren't victims. They didn't take their own life. They're predators. And it's important to know that not one single "grieving parent" so far has condemned what Kelli has done under that username, the opposite is the case. They all engage in the same kind of harassement towards members of this community. Kelli has already created a new account, twitter.com/SanctionedStop. She is actively cirumcumventing her Twitter ban. So once again, these people weaponized grief. They have spread so many lies about this community and when I took leadership of this community, they did the same to me.

And look. I'm not gonna tell you what to think. I'm a free thinker, not a cultist as you claim. You can make up your own mind. But you should ask yourself, why are the most vocal opponents of this forum predators who harass and stalk individuals like that?
Read this thread if you want to know more about these people and their shady behavior.

Last but not least, these screenshot of me supposedly attacking these people doesn't display anything I have written. As I said, these people have every reason to spread misinformation. Every time someone takes time to criticise them on Twitter, they claim it's me. As if I don't have better things to do than create account after account after account. And if you knew what else they think to know about me, you would know that they don't know anything about me. They're not gonna like that, but that's the truth.

Chapter nine. Online safety bill
[responding to "taking action"]

I already wrote a thread about this and if you value freedom of speech and privacy, you shouldn't support it.

Chapter ten. The mental health system
[responding to "Please seek help. You are not alone."]


Last but not least you finally address the flaws in our system. I'm impressed. Your video takes 46 minutes to watch and you dedicate a few seconds when the video is about to end about the mental health system. Did you address coercision as a common practice? Human rights violations? No. You just claim there are a few problems and that's it, for example that many of us can't talk about being suicidal because we get shamed. But do you even understand the scope of the problem? It's not just about shaming people, which is one of the reasons people would rather come to this forum to discuss deeply personal issues, it's about coercision on a systemic level. Human rights violations. You can get locked up if you tell your doctor that you're suicidal. Talking about your suicidality is a game with fire, I have played it before and you can burn yourself really badly.

So when you claim that this forum or the community has cult-like behavior, referring to members of this community spreading negative sentiments towards mental health institutions or their parents, there is a fucking reason. First of all, I never did any of that, okay. I'm not aware that we are discouraging people from talking to important people in their lives about their problems. But we also need to look at the circumstances of most members in this community. I just recently launched a poll, asking members if their parents contributed to their suffering because my parents certainly played their role when it comes to my struggles. And according to that poll, around 75%(!) of all respondents said their parents contributed in some way to their struggles. So wouldn't it only be a natural theme of this community that members distrust their parents in some way? You don't think there is a very personal reason why so many of us are anti-natalists? And most importantly, many of us dealt with traumatic experiencs around involuntary hospitalisation, then again, wouldn't it be only natural to have concerns around that, especially when they neglect our individual autonomy and our bodily integrity, which are very fundamental concepts of any civilisation? I had close friends of mine describe very horrible and traumatic experiences, which happened as a result of involuntary hospitalisation, some even said they would rather die(!) then ever go back. Maybe you're simply arguing from a position of ignorance, Tantacrul. And maybe you said all of these things about this community because you don't really care about the well being of suicidal people, about the horrible human rights violations we have to endure in these institutions when we open up. Maybe that's the reason why all of that was so easy for you to say but you forget that the people you blame are the same people you claim to care so much about. Odd, isn't it. Again, if people in this community have a negative opinion of their family members or of their doctors, there is certainly a reason for that.

And about mental health, here is a tweet from someone who has recently committed suicide. She was a suicide prevention activist.


Maybe, the problem with mental health isn't just that you get shamed a little bit if you open up, you donk. Look here.


Maybe that gives you a hint? Come on.

And look, I also want to get one point across. No amount of therapy fixes physical or mental pain, political discrimination and financial problems. There are some problems you can't fix with the mental health system because we live in a society that doesn't really care about struggling people. You want some examples from a trans woman?


So you're essentially defending that system with that video and blaming us for speaking out. You're a part of the problem. I live in a country with a high rate of involuntary hospitalisation and it's not cool. You really need to be careful with your words if you value your freedom, especially when you're suicidal and talking to a doctor.

And let's make some things clear, before I end my response to your poorly researched video. You ended your video on this note:
"Every step closer can connect someone to life and the help they want, sometimes those steps are big but sometimes, all it takes is a smile"

That's literally how you decided to end that video, your most meaningful video ever - with an empty platitude. Do you think people in this community who are in so much pain that they literally want to end their lives want your smile? It just proves all over again that you have no idea about the suffering that's happening in this community. You're blind and you'll never be able to understand. Do you think that was a smart way to end the video? It wasn't. You're the perfect example of everything that's wrong with this society. You just showed us every problem with suicide, the way we handle it both as a societal problem but also as a human right. And it shows me you don't care.

My compassion for people doesn't end with suicide prevention. Suicide prevention without addressing systemic issues that causes suidiality in the first place is meaningless. There are so many problems in this world, repeating the suicide hotline every time you talk about suicide is merely a bandaid but it doesn't fix anything. I want more people to live happy and decent lives but those who want a way out, should have a way out. 99% of the world outlawed assisted suicide and you point the finger to that one forum that that breaks the stigma around the right to die?

I'm done with my response. I think I made my case. And I think I was very clear about my opinion. It took a lot of time to write that. Thanks for reading.

I came here from tantacruels video and all I have to say is he is disgusting. Especially when speaking about Bobby C. You're right, he truly doesn't care about Bobby or this site he just wants to shoehorn beliefs into peoples heads and make money while doing it (the video was age restricted but we all know YouTubers like him have different means like patreon or alternative channels) just like he claims this site is doing "leading people to pay to be radicalized by suicide" it's just not true. It's a community and the only radicalization is coming from people like him who don't understand and don't even want to begin to. He is the exact type of person everyone here wants to get away from. Uncaring of our personal autonomy all they care about is stuffing us in medical systems that take our money time and mental sanity. I can tell just by looking at him he thinks a month in the looney bin is what it takes to fix people like me. And that alone makes me so angry. Videos like his go so far to dehumanize us especially by only using one example of the type of user on this forum like cake123 but even then should they not be allowed to speak? To send their condolences? Just because they haven't ctb yet doesn't mean they can't express empathy for those who are closer to doing so.
 
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SadShroomie

Member
Oct 1, 2023
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Whether he realized this or not, he brought many people to this platform, and not the way he intended. I watched his video and immediately knew this was the place for me, his over the top accusations didn't really fool me either. I thought that it was a good idea to have a judgement free zone where people can ask for methods or say their final goodbyes.
 
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wheezle42

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Mar 13, 2023
29
TBF, I learned of the forums through his video and I'm glad to be here. I'm sure others did too. So it has had some good :]
 
sserafim

sserafim

they say it’s darkest of all before the dawn
Sep 13, 2023
8,411
Omg tantacrul sounds like tentacle / tentacruel
 
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