deathbydragon
take me with you
- Mar 17, 2022
- 189
headcase95
abject failure
- Apr 17, 2023
- 70
Absolute prick. Why does this jackass or anyone else care if people want to CTB? How does it affect them in any way at all? Crusaders like this clearly lack basic empathy. We're all going to die one day anyway, the only thing that matters is ending suffering. I wonder if he has a problem with euthanizing pets too?
potato_loverxd0
Potato gurl
- Apr 5, 2023
- 1
The youtuber Tantacrul, also known in this forum as @Jonels, finally recorded a video about this community, in which he slandered and insulted our members and I've decided to respond to him directly. He has been obsessed with this forum for the last few weeks, creating alt-account after alt-account to force his narrative on other people. A little reminder on how all of this started, back in November 2022.
These are some snippets of his posts before I kicked him from this community. I made pretty clear in that thread that he is allowed to use this forum and express criticism towards this forum as long as it's fair and in good faith. It's obvious from the posts above that this wasn't the case so I gave him the boot. As a result of that, he announced that he would make a video about this forum. It's pretty obvious that all of this is done solely because he wants to cause damage to this community because we didn't give him a platform for his immature behavior. And look, Tantacrul, you might not mention me and this forum by name but I'll mention you by name.
Chapter one. The real philosophy of this website
[responding to "How does the site work?", "The philosophy of this site"]
What's the purpose of this forum? Obviously Tantacrul isn't really interested in portraying this forum in a fair light, the video he made obviously doesn't have the intention to start a discussion about the moral implications of this forum with fair arguments. It's a direct response of us banning him for repeatedly(!) violating the rules back in November when he insulted the community and claimed we are reponsible for the death of another person. It's supposed to be another hitpiece, similiar to the one in December 2021 from the NYT.
I already explained this here but the purpose of this forum is to provide a safe space for suicidal or struggling people in general to discuss deeply personal topics without censorship. That's the most straight-forward answer. I would add that this forum also provides a space to talk about these subjects without a forced narrative and that's one of the reasons why this place is so appealing to so many people. If you talk about your problems with anyone out there, it always comes with restrictions. If you say a little bit too loud that you are suicidal, you have to expect severe backlash and in the worst case, involuntary hospitalisation. I'll get to this point later, this is gonna be a very detailed response to the accusations directed at this community.
Another aspects what makes this forum so appealing to so many people is the fact that you can talk about your suicidality in this place without the risk of intervention. Instead, you receive honest compassion and empathy because we're all mind-liked people. We all suffer together in this place and we're all respecting each others boundaries. And that's important because I didn't experience that out there, I simply didn't. And we talk to each other with an even ground, which isn't the case when you talk to a psychiatrist for example, there is a very different power dynamic in such conversations than here. And this aspect of the forum, which has caused so many people to stay, hasn't even been mentioned once. This forum saves lives, without a doubt.
And there are people in this community that have been suffering for years for various reasons and unlike Tantacruls narrative, this community doesn't just consist of young people who are impulsive and eager to engage in harmful behavior without much thought. Tantacrul doesn't understand that nobody becomes suicidal in a vacuum. We all have valid reasons to be in this forum. He pretends that people are lured into this community for no reason and then convinced to kill themselves just for fun. That's obviously not true, I don't even know where to start when I want to debunk this claim. But reading through the registration queue and the posts in this forum from new members makes very clear to me that most members who come to this place have a long experience with mental or physical health problems. And if someone comes to this place, they specifically seek out a forum with our philosophy, for a reason. Let's make one thing clear, people register in this place voluntarily because they have needs they want to address in this forum. And that's okay.
Here are some scientific articles digging into the nature of this forum and you will realize rather quickly that scientists have called this community pro-choice repeatedly in the past. These articles provide a very nuanced insight into this community and I appreciated the work that's been done.
Now, let's dig into the next claim.
You claim that this forum consists of 4 philosophies around the nine minute mark.
1. Nihilism.
2. Anti-natalism
3. Pro-mortalism
4. Libertarianism
While the first two philosophies are actually quite common in this forum, pro-mortalism and libertarianism isn't. There might be individual members who have libertarian or efilist beliefs but to say that these are dominant philosophies as you claim is absurd. There is a reason why nihilism and anti-natalism are common themes in this forum, it's because depressed people tend to have a more negative outlook on life compared to the rest of the population. It's quite natural actually and it's not really a surprise that this community tends to be more nihilistic compared to the average population. And anti-natalism, which is also more common in this community, is a belief that's shared in this forum because many of us didn't have the best parents and sometimes, our own parents contributed to our suffering. But I'll go into details about this later.
I don't know why you claim pro-mortalism is a dominant philosophy in this forum, it's not. Again, there might be individual posters who hold a pro-mortalist belief but that's in no way representative for the entire community. And that's really important because you use this framing over the course of the entire video to portray this forum as some kind of cult that pushes people into suicide because we supposedly gain satisfaction from doing so. That's a lie. Most members here recognise that ending your life is a serious act and shouldn't be done without severe introspection. But we regularly applaud and celebrate when members announce that they're leaving the forum because they have recovered. That's a good thing. Shouldn't that be obvious? Regarding libertarianism, you seem to confuse a fundamental basic human right like self-determination for libertarianism and I don't know why how you came to that conclusion. For me, it tells me a lot about your ignorance around this topic. The right to die is a human right and the ECHR has agreed with me on that topic repeatedly.
View attachment 103738
European Center for Law and Justice
View attachment 103737
The International Journal Of Human Rights
And that's the most shared value in this forum: self-determination, you being the only decision maker when it comes to matters that affect your welfare. And for many of us in this forum, we consider the right to die a human right. This has nothing to do with libertarianism as you claim but everything with individual autonomy, those are very fundamental values of every civilisation. And you live in the UK, right? So I wonder, why don't you value the right to die as a fundamental right? Do you disagree that people should have the right to make deeply personal decisions about their own life without interference of the state? That would be a regressive idea. Are you regressive, Tantacrul? Do you want to go back to times where women and men didn't have the legal right to make their own decisions concerning their welfare? I don't really think so.
But your attempt to slander this forum as some kind of obscure cult already failed. I believe in the right to die as a human right. I think every person who consider their life unworthy of living for various reasons, and the most common reason is chronic mental and physical pain, should have a right to exercise their right to die without interference of the state. And this sentiment has just recently been reinforced by the Federal Consitutional Court of Germany, making clear in their court ruling that the right to die isn't "restriced to serious or terminal diseases or specific phases of life or of a disease". It would contradict the fact that the right to die "is rooted in human dignity" and therefore does "NOT require any additional explanation or justification". The court also made clear that the right to die "also includes the right to seek and use voluntarily offered help to do so and that's by far the most progressive court ruling to this day, validating the right to die as a basic human right.
It seems to me that your entire video is based on a misunderstanding of the right to die. You consider the right to die a controversial topic and people fighting for ways to exercise said rights must be malicious actors according to your video but that's not really the case if you do some research about the ethical consensus in various countries regarding suicide and assisted suicide too. That's very important. You claim that sharing ressources and information regarding ways to exercise our right to die is bad and evil, I say it's an act of compassion. Let's end this here and come back to this topic later.
Chapter two. What are my beliefs
[responding to "who is responsible for setting up this site?"]
You dedicate a lot of your video talking about my beliefs without actually knowing why I'm a member in this forum.
I'm a trans woman who has suffered their entire life. My childhood was ruined by neglectful parents and I've had a terrible upbringing. As a result of that I experienced suicidal ideation very early in my life. Being trans teached me that we live in a society that doesn't really give a fuck about marginalised people. That's why I have become a member in this forum. During the years I have realized that the right to die is a deeply neglected right, in the majority of the world it's surpressed and you're not really allowed to talk openly about suicide. If you want to know more about the stigma around mental health, just talk to a few members of this forum and ask them why they are active in this forum.
I'm secular. I don't believe in any religion. And I consider the right to die when you're suffering so much that you can't take it any longer a compassionate and empathic position. I think people like you who fear monger about this forum and take valid criticism to the extreme are not acting in good faith. You claim this forum has anything to do with inceldom. If you did some research, you would know that inceldom isn't really a common theme in this forum. You will find so many different groups with different backgrounds in this community, we're actually quite diverse and people are here for very different reason. We're also very heterogenic when it comes to ideology. You claim we're a cult and that we all believe in the same thing. That's not really true. We disagree on so many topics. Some members are left-wing, some are right-wing, some are socially conservative and some are more liberal. I had so many political discussions with people who had a different opinion than me and that's okay. We don't really have any common goals in this forum. The only thing that truly connects us is the need for a place to talk about deeply personal topics without censorship and a forced narrative and the idea that we should have a right to make deeply decisions without intervention of a third party. And that's it.
Here is the deal. I've been suicidal my entire life. I'm not just an admin, I'm a member myself. I'm a human. And I'm trans. I know how it feels to be trapped in this place. I know how it feels to suffer. I know how it feels when nobody seems to understand you. I know how it feels when you can't open up to anybody because you fear judgemental reactions and involuntary hospitalisation when you just say the wrong words. And I know the dire need to find relief from pain. Do you, Jonels? You, who claims to speak for all the suicidal people out there, do you represent their interests and their needs? Really?
Chapter three. Are we a cult?
[responding to "Don't seek help", "A note about cults", "Malicious actors"]
You claim that this community is a cult, giving us three indicators that this is the case.
First, a cult has a "highly peculiar" alternative ideology, which runs contrary to mainstream - you claim that applies to us.
Second, a cult has "ridicilous hostility" towards mental health professionals and the idea of treatment.
Third, a cult is notorious for cutting people off from their support networks.
I mean, honestly, these are quite vague and I haven't seen a clear definition of a cult yet that would match the purpose of this forum. You could apply the first point to any community that whose ideals aren't mainstream yet and especially with the combination of the second or even the third point, I see a common theme. You know, I'm a trans woman. And there is a long history of the media misrepresenting who we are. And you're doing a similiar thing right now. I mean, let's look at some headlines, right?
How long can the cult of transgenderism last?
www.catholicworldreport.com
The Cult of Transgenderism
The Cult of Transgenderism:My Brother's Crisis of Identity in an America Gone MadBy "Lisa" Last year, my brotherfrc.org
The Trans Cult
A few years ago, three things happened in the course of a single week in my life. First, a friend told me about a letter her daughter, then 11, had received from her closest summer-camp friend. The girl had some big news: She was now a boy. Then, another mother told me she and her […]www.aei.org
There are prominent vocal right-wingers who use exactly the same points to go after trans people. They call us the LGBT cult, they claim we groom children.
Libs of TikTok Goes on Tucker to Call LGBTQ Community a ‘Cult’ with ‘Evil People’ Who Want To Groom Kids
Fox News host Tucker Carlson sat down with the formerly anonymous creator Chaya Raichik, who declared the "LGBTQ community" has become a "cult."www.mediaite.com
The Problem With How We Talk About Grooming
Allegations against Broadway star Alice Ripley, as well as a recent story about Millie Bobby Brown, sparked discussion about "grooming."www.rollingstone.com
Tucker Carlson and Libs of TikTok Spread Transphobia for the Holidays
Libs of TikTok creator Chaya Raichik called the LGBTQ community a "cult" and pushed more baseless grooming rumors on 'Tucker Carlson Today.'
It's exactly the same thing. If you apply some bad faith, you can make any movement look bad with the right framing. And that's you're doing right now. Congrats Tantacrul, you learned from the best. Take very vague descriptions of a cult and apply them without any nuance and consideration for context to the entire community and ooops, we look like the bad guys.
What do you know about me? Nothing. But you have no problem smearing me as a bad-faith actor, as someone who simply acts on bad intentions. I mean, that's a common theme, you know. I belong to many subcultures that have endured the same slander. I'm transgender, that's why I immediately knew where your narrative is coming from. Do you see how the media hounds us trans people? The way you talk about this community of struggling people comes from the same place of judgement. We're victims, not perpetrators. You're just a different color of judgement. This time you're not lashing out against trans people who supposedly groom vulnerable people, you're lashing out against suicidal people who supposedly do the same. Suicidal people who appreciate this forum, people who voluntarily seeked this community as a source of support. And don't they have a right to have a safe space without the forced narratives, the same bullshit you're pulling right now on suicidal people? Oh no, "we need to save them", right? We need to get the nanny state to take down this community, right? That's what you're doing right now but you're not speaking for anyone. You're only speaking for yourself and your language is bigotry.
Next, you you said this community is an echo chamber of negative thoughts and nihilistic view points and you claim to prove that with how many examples? 5 posts? 6 posts? Are these representative examples of the entire community? You mentioned "Cake123" who has several thousand posts but why are they representative of the entire community? You're cherry picking members who suit your narrative, we have members in this forum with even more posts who disagree with that particular member. I just want to make something clear. We have 1'700'000 posts in this forum and we have over 26'000 members and you pick a few anecdotal(!) cases, intentionally leaving out important context to paint a narrative I've already debunked repeatedly before, for example when I responded to the NYT article. So if you think debunking your video is gonna be difficult, you're mistaken, Tantarcul. As I just said, we have several thousand members who came to this place because it gave them something. Do you speak for them? You claim this forum has 10 million monthly visitors on average, doesn't that send a message to you, Tantacrul? Do you really speak for people who are struggling or are you just merely pretending to be talking for them? Maybe that's the problem. Let's make one thing clear, you are talking about suicidal people and not(!) for them. You haven't really engaged with this community in good faith and maybe that's the reason why people rather come to us? Who would want to seek support from someone who slanders 25k suicidal people, people who are literally suffering so much, as a cult of predators? That's so telling. It's always the same with you people, it's only judgemental toxic slander. Every single time and you always think it's so brilliant...
There are several scientific studies researching this forum and none of them describe this community as pro-mortalist. We might have individual members, vocal members who subscribe to an efilist worldview but then again, this is a forum for adults so shouldn't they have a right to speak their mind? That's the point of this forum, right? Being able to speak your mind in a safe space, right? That's absolutely the contrary of a cult. And all the active members who clearly disagree with me on various subjects prove that point.
Next, you take one case of someone who has been convicted and sentenced for doing things to other people outside of this forum and imply that we are in some way responsible for this. Again, predators exist in every community.
MySpace, Facebook attract online predators
If you don't know what it means to “facebook” someone, then odds are you don't have any young people in your house who do it all the time. It means to look for details about a person on any of the booming Internet sites where people post details about themselves. It's hugely popular, but police...www.nbcnews.com
Playstation Pedophiles « Filtering Facts
web.archive.org
They're on Facebook, Youtube, Twitter, they are on Twitch, they have been on MySpace - pretending that this has anything to do with this forum just proves you're ignorant about the nature of the internet. Yeah, this forum does attract a few bad apples due to the nature of this forum but keep in mind, you have have one(!) conviction for a forum with 25k members that has existed for over 5 years and the conviction itself has nothing to do with the purpose of this community. This guy deserved to get punished for violating other people for sexual pleasure. I have no problem saying that. But are predators overrepresented in this community or are you just framing this forum in a particularly bad way with one singular case of a crime? Again, this community has 25k members. How representative is your little anecdotal case then? Not very representative at all, am I right?
Yeah, that's what I thought. Of course a community like ours that has vulnerable people (which doesn't translate to "no individual autonomy" btw) attracts bad apples. If we have reasonable doubts about someones intention, we reserve our right to boot them from the community. But you can't reads minds, that's why you're assuming I'm a bad-faith actor, and I can't read minds, that's why I don't know the intentions of people who come to this community. It's as simple as that. Of course I could ban anyone I consider dubious but who wants to be in a community where I single-handedly rule who is allowed to be here and who isnt?
Chapter four. Protecting the vulnerable
[responding to "protecting the vulnerable"]
You bring up the fact that people need to agree that they are of sound mind when they use the website. You quote a professor who said "People... take their own lives when they can see no end to their pain, when they feel trapped by it and that there is no way. Like physical pain, there is only so much mental pain that we can withstand and, when we reach our limit, something has to give. Sadly, for too many people, it is life that gives".
What an absurd quote. First of all, it implies that any kind of pain is temporary and that relief from pain is never an option if it results in someone's decision to exercise their right to die. I think your quote doesn't actually delegitimize the forum, it legitimizes it, making clear that some pain is so difficult to endure that providing relief in the form of death is an act of mercy. That's the key philosophy behind assisted suicide. What's the problem here? How does that relate to the forum?
And you criticise that we don't protect vulnerable people enough. Well, luckily I already addressed that talking point in a previous thread. Being vulnerable doesn't mean you are unable to make rational decisions, see this study:
Mental capacity in psychiatric patients: Systematic review - PubMed
Mental capacity can be reliably assessed. The majority of psychiatric in-patients have capacity, and socio-demographic variables do not have a major impact but clinical ones do.pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
I have to reject your entire premise based on that scientific study. I think vulnerable people have a right to individual autonomy, so they also have right to make decisions they consider appropiate for the current situation. We both know protecting "vulnerabel people" is a scape goat to go after all people who are struggling, it's a deeply regressive notion, it's an extension of the "think of the children"-fallacy and it comes from a social-conservative interpretion of liberty. I don't even know why you bring up that topic in the first place, it's not a topic specific to this forum, the question if vulnerable people should roam the internet freely without any protections is a conversation we should have when we talk about safety on the internet in general and if it's okay to infringe on the individual autonomy of adults in certain situations. But as I said, I reject your premise and the study I've linked seems to agree with me.
You're also implying that a distressed mental state is only temporary but how do you know? We had member in this forum who experience strong depression and suicidality for years, myself included by the way. What's the point of that talking point? We simply don't know if someone can recover from their struggle. I know a lot of people can't. Are we just gonna throw them under the bus and prolong their life indefinitely even when they scream and yell for relief? Is that a compassionate position?
As I said, you shouldn't pretend to talk for suicidal people. You don't. You have no idea about the subject matter and you should have sticked to music.
How do you even know if people who register in this community don't have the mental capacity to use this forum? It's just an assumption, nothing else. I think people who specifically seek out the content of this forum know what they want. And most people here don't sound like they're in some kind of episode as you suggest. The vast majority of members can describe very well why they are here. If you just spent a little bit of time here instead of being a judgemental dork, you would realize that we have plenty of members who have been struggling for years without relief. And you're essentially sitting on your chair, probably not knowing what it means to suffer, and you scream you want more, you want more? More of what? More suffering? And you think that's the compassionate position?
Chapter five. Instruction threads and the "marketplace"
[responding to "the instructions thread", "the marketplace"]
You're implying we work with Exit. It's a conspiracy theory. The forum doesn't make any profit, period. Your claim that this forum is illegal in most countries is therefore incorrect. Nobody is allowed to sell anything on the forum. If we find out, we take action. Your claim that the forum works as a marketplace is therefore false as well. You shouldn't listen so much to Kelli. She doesn't understand anything and she is simply spreading misinformation to make the forum look twice as bad. But I'll talk about her later.
Not a good look, Tantacrul. The website isn't illegal, that's why we're still here. There have been countless attempts to deplatform us, don't worry. Shout as much as you want.
Chapter six. Bobby C
[responding to "assisting those below 18"]
You claim that we knew who Bobby C was. We don't. It's as simple as that. It's all just really a fallacy. He was a member of your community too, right? So I could ask, hey why didn't this guy feel comfortable enough to open up in your server if you're such a great guy? I could play the same blame game but that doesn't really bring us anywhere. We can all point the fingers all day long and pretend this forum the only factor when it comes to someones decision to make a tragic choice. That's not the case and you know that. I'm just curious, why did you start caring about that guy when it was too late? Do you even care or is this video just an attempt to virtue signal what a great person you are? Your choice.
Chapter seven. Responsible reporting
Right at the very start, (at the 4 minute mark) Tantacrul claims that he wants to follow guidelines on media reporting about suicide and that's why he claims he doesn't want to mention the name of the website. But there is a just a problem. He already liked and followed several people on Twitter who have the name of the website in their bio. So it's unavoidable that his community will find its way to this forum.
View attachment 103733
If someone from his audience wants to dig a little bit deeper into the forum that's mentioned in his video, it's not gonna be very difficult to find it, thanks to him following people who use social media to spread awareness about this community. So let's make one thing clear. He intentionally exposes his audience to this forum, I consider this a little bit hypocritical. Just to make clear who acts responsible in this situation. And here is the thing, based on the screenshots you've included in your video, people will find this forum. What do you think happened every time when a news outlet covered the existence of this forum? It increased our member count.
It was a big mistake to talk about this forum because as I'm writing this thread, just a few hours after you published your video, we already had thousands of guests. The registration queue spiked, depressed people from your community want to join our forum. I'm asking you right now, given you think this is a very bad place: can you live with the guilt, when your audience makes accounts in this forum, a place that's apparently so bad, it needs political legislation to be taken down?
View attachment 103740
"Everyone's got their priority I suppose."
Your goal to follow media guidelines already backfired. And if you really think your video is gonna change anything, after the NYT already covered us on their front page, you're mistaken. I can defend my position, this community and the existence of this forum with a clear conscience. I've done this repeatedly in the past. And you know why I did that? Because I believe in something. I believe in individual autonomy and I believe in compassionate treatment of struggling people, so much, that I dedicate a large junk of my life for that cause. I don't spend a lot of time taking down what other people have built, I spent my time maintaining this community because I believe it's a good thing. And what are you doing? You're making a video concern trolling about this forum but I can assure you, if you read the messages I've read of people who were bedridden, haunted with so much physical pain they couldn't even leave their bed anymore, you'd think twice about posting such a video, throwing these people under the bus. No, if you have talked to these people, you would become an activist for compassionate treatment of these people and that includes the right to die. Because, here is the deal, for some people, the only relief from pain is death. That's why in my country we legalized assisted suicide to the fullest extend. The right to die is a neglected topic, almost every single country outlawed assisted suicide but there is a need for it, and that's why this forum has legitimacy and that's why people seek to participate in this forum. It's all about neglected needs. I live in one of the few countries that legalized assisted suicide. You don't. You don't want the forum to exist? Then get to work and make sure the people that write desperate messages to me don't have to use this forum to find peace in their last moments of their life.
Chapter eight. Who are the opponents of Sanctioned Suicide?
[responding to "taking action"]
A lot of your information is based on claims from people you call "grieving family members". The spearhead of these grieving parents is Kelli. She leads FixThe26 and is the most vocal opponent of this forum. I have thought about this for a long time but given that these people still successfully pretend to be victims, I have to break my silence about the behavior of these people. FixThe26 and the woman who is behind that organisation has a history of harassing, slandering, stalking, mocking and threatening members of our community. When she doxed Mahakali, a well-known member here, posting a picture of her on Twitter, it enraged the entire community. Let's take a look at her actions.
View attachment 103744
View attachment 103743
I have censored the image. Kelli didn't censor it. It was an attempt to silence a critic. Someone who has been a member in the forum. I talked to Mahakali and she confirmed that this instance here greatly contributed to her suffering. This is enough to push someone over the edge. She died one month later.
View attachment 103741
Here she encouraged physical violence on the past site owner, saying he should get publicly executed. Lynch mob. This is a woman that's highly unstable and she has every reason to spread misinformation and outright lies about this community. I know you didn't know that, Tantacrul. But maybe you should have done your research. You think I made it up? Just recently her account twitter.com/fixthe26 got suspended, finally.
View attachment 103745
She engaged in so much targeted harassement and abuse. There are more victims. And all the other family members you included in your video, I'm not gonna name them to protect their identity, have engaged in similiar behavior. Someone celebrated when a member of our community committed suicide after months of abuse and bullying she directed towards that member. They love to play with the identity, leak names. They play the intimidation games really well. Jeremy, an ex-member who has done an interview for Fixthe26, has stalked and harassed a trans member of our community. The list is long. But this thread isn't about these people, I don't play these games. This thread is about your inability to do proper research and take everything they say for granted to craft a narrative that's dangerous to say the least.
But here is the deal. These people aren't victims. They didn't take their own life. They're predators. And it's important to know that not one single "grieving parent" so far has condemned what Kelli has done under that username, the opposite is the case. They all engage in the same kind of harassement towards members of this community. Kelli has already created a new account, twitter.com/SanctionedStop. She is actively cirumcumventing her Twitter ban. So once again, these people weaponized grief. They have spread so many lies about this community and when I took leadership of this community, they did the same to me.
And look. I'm not gonna tell you what to think. I'm a free thinker, not a cultist as you claim. You can make up your own mind. But you should ask yourself, why are the most vocal opponents of this forum predators who harass and stalk individuals like that?
Read this thread if you want to know more about these people and their shady behavior.
Last but not least, these screenshot of me supposedly attacking these people doesn't display anything I have written. As I said, these people have every reason to spread misinformation. Every time someone takes time to criticise them on Twitter, they claim it's me. As if I don't have better things to do than create account after account after account. And if you knew what else they think to know about me, you would know that they don't know anything about me. They're not gonna like that, but that's the truth.
Chapter nine. Online safety bill
[responding to "taking action"]
I already wrote a thread about this and if you value freedom of speech and privacy, you shouldn't support it.
Chapter ten. The mental health system
[responding to "Please seek help. You are not alone."]
Last but not least you finally address the flaws in our system. I'm impressed. Your video takes 46 minutes to watch and you dedicate a few seconds when the video is about to end about the mental health system. Did you address coercision as a common practice? Human rights violations? No. You just claim there are a few problems and that's it, for example that many of us can't talk about being suicidal because we get shamed. But do you even understand the scope of the problem? It's not just about shaming people, which is one of the reasons people would rather come to this forum to discuss deeply personal issues, it's about coercision on a systemic level. Human rights violations. You can get locked up if you tell your doctor that you're suicidal. Talking about your suicidality is a game with fire, I have played it before and you can burn yourself really badly.
So when you claim that this forum or the community has cult-like behavior, referring to members of this community spreading negative sentiments towards mental health institutions or their parents, there is a fucking reason. First of all, I never did any of that, okay. I'm not aware that we are discouraging people from talking to important people in their lives about their problems. But we also need to look at the circumstances of most members in this community. I just recently launched a poll, asking members if their parents contributed to their suffering because my parents certainly played their role when it comes to my struggles. And according to that poll, around 75%(!) of all respondents said their parents contributed in some way to their struggles. So wouldn't it only be a natural theme of this community that members distrust their parents in some way? You don't think there is a very personal reason why so many of us are anti-natalists? And most importantly, many of us dealt with traumatic experiencs around involuntary hospitalisation, then again, wouldn't it be only natural to have concerns around that, especially when they neglect our individual autonomy and our bodily integrity, which are very fundamental concepts of any civilisation? I had close friends of mine describe very horrible and traumatic experiences, which happened as a result of involuntary hospitalisation, some even said they would rather die(!) then ever go back. Maybe you're simply arguing from a position of ignorance, Tantacrul. And maybe you said all of these things about this community because you don't really care about the well being of suicidal people, about the horrible human rights violations we have to endure in these institutions when we open up. Maybe that's the reason why all of that was so easy for you to say but you forget that the people you blame are the same people you claim to care so much about. Odd, isn't it. Again, if people in this community have a negative opinion of their family members or of their doctors, there is certainly a reason for that.
And about mental health, here is a tweet from someone who has recently committed suicide. She was a suicide prevention activist.
Maybe, the problem with mental health isn't just that you get shamed a little bit if you open up, you donk. Look here.
'Toxic culture' of abuse at mental health hospital revealed by BBC secret filming
BBC Panorama goes undercover and finds patients being humiliated, verbally abused and bullied by staff.www.bbc.co.uk
Maybe that gives you a hint? Come on.
And look, I also want to get one point across. No amount of therapy fixes physical or mental pain, political discrimination and financial problems. There are some problems you can't fix with the mental health system because we live in a society that doesn't really care about struggling people. You want some examples from a trans woman?
Oklahoma Could Force Trans People Under 26 Years Old To Detransition Medically
A new bill has been filed in Oklahoma that would ban gender affirming care under age 26. Republican states are moving towards banning transition entirely.erininthemorn.substack.com
UK government blocks Scotland's new gender recognition law | CNN
The UK government has blocked a new law intended to allow trans people in Scotland to change their legal gender without a medical diagnosis -- a controversial move that has added fuel to the already highly emotional debate over Scottish independence.www.cnn.com
So you're essentially defending that system with that video and blaming us for speaking out. You're a part of the problem. I live in a country with a high rate of involuntary hospitalisation and it's not cool. You really need to be careful with your words if you value your freedom, especially when you're suicidal and talking to a doctor.
And let's make some things clear, before I end my response to your poorly researched video. You ended your video on this note:
"Every step closer can connect someone to life and the help they want, sometimes those steps are big but sometimes, all it takes is a smile"
That's literally how you decided to end that video, your most meaningful video ever - with an empty platitude. Do you think people in this community who are in so much pain that they literally want to end their lives want your smile? It just proves all over again that you have no idea about the suffering that's happening in this community. You're blind and you'll never be able to understand. Do you think that was a smart way to end the video? It wasn't. You're the perfect example of everything that's wrong with this society. You just showed us every problem with suicide, the way we handle it both as a societal problem but also as a human right. And it shows me you don't care.
My compassion for people doesn't end with suicide prevention. Suicide prevention without addressing systemic issues that causes suidiality in the first place is meaningless. There are so many problems in this world, repeating the suicide hotline every time you talk about suicide is merely a bandaid but it doesn't fix anything. I want more people to live happy and decent lives but those who want a way out, should have a way out. 99% of the world outlawed assisted suicide and you point the finger to that one forum that that breaks the stigma around the right to die?
I'm done with my response. I think I made my case. And I think I was very clear about my opinion. It took a lot of time to write that. Thanks for reading.
I don't think respecting boundaries is letting a person kill themselfs idk tho, I am very happy on what this community wants to be, a safe space for suicidal people.
But the reason kids like me are send into pshych is because to help us not feel painful anymore. Sure, it is doing a awsomly SHITTY job demonizing our feelings instead of caring about them but I feel like a loser even thinking about suicide, it's basically feels like a easy way out for me and I don't wanna be a wimp like I always was, I want to be a strong person with strong beliefs and actually scream out my pain.
Suicide is kinda whimpy, even If you choose the most brutal one, you will never be able to escape the fact that you are doing this because you are tired I think idk.
I want hospitals to be caring about each patient and not literally cage us, instead teach us about importance of life and shit idk. Like make us go to parks, be close to us, not treat us as glass and shit.
I was attending pshycology lessons and the teach said that the pills are not to help, rather help a patient to have be able to discuss their problem with a therapist. There is nothing that will ever help you, you are stuck in an infinite pain loop, even after suiciding, you will never feel anything other then pain. Atleast you have experienced joy in your lifetime, I don't believe death will be any difference from infinite darkness. yeah you will never feel pain, but neither joy, that nothing will slowly turn into pain as you realize that there is nothing anymore
I am like extremely suicidal, I think, atleast thats my peak rn. I have been cutting myself everywhere and attempting to jump out of the window and shit like that, I think I have adhd and deppression, well I probably will never know for sure bcz my parents refuse to take me to any type of therapy because they think bullshitting, plus I'm scared to dissapoint them and reveal scars and shit to them and it's annoying the crap out of me to the point I wanna shoot both of them up and then kill myself
Tbh it's shocking that even a suicidal asshole like me who should be mentally delulu me understands the importance of mental health
Maybe I dont . Maybe it's a sign of being scared of ctb. maybe I'm making sense
But whatever it is, I'm sending love to whoever is reading this tbh
idk anymore, I just wanna find eternal happiness but eternal happiness will never exist when eternal pain always will, that's the life we have to deal with and instead of experiencing eternal pain, I think rn I'd rather feel a lot of pain and atleast a little joy time to time. Lovaaa yaaaaaaaa
epic
Enlightened
- Aug 9, 2019
- 1,813
hiki-loser
Member
- Apr 10, 2023
- 10
I'm sympathetic to tantacrul but a solution to people wanting to kill themselves can't involve restricting information on safe and effective methods of suicide or enforcing identification laws for every forum on the internet. It's building a world that supports people in recovery as much as it's possible to. Way more difficult. Uncritically endorsing the online safety bill clinched it for me. His grief is blinding him.
The youtuber Tantacrul, also known in this forum as @Jonels, finally recorded a video about this community, in which he slandered and insulted our members and I've decided to respond to him directly. He has been obsessed with this forum for the last few weeks, creating alt-account after alt-account to force his narrative on other people. A little reminder on how all of this started, back in November 2022.
These are some snippets of his posts before I kicked him from this community. I made pretty clear in that thread that he is allowed to use this forum and express criticism towards this forum as long as it's fair and in good faith. It's obvious from the posts above that this wasn't the case so I gave him the boot. As a result of that, he announced that he would make a video about this forum. It's pretty obvious that all of this is done solely because he wants to cause damage to this community because we didn't give him a platform for his immature behavior. And look, Tantacrul, you might not mention me and this forum by name but I'll mention you by name.
Chapter one. The real philosophy of this website
[responding to "How does the site work?", "The philosophy of this site"]
What's the purpose of this forum? Obviously Tantacrul isn't really interested in portraying this forum in a fair light, the video he made obviously doesn't have the intention to start a discussion about the moral implications of this forum with fair arguments. It's a direct response of us banning him for repeatedly(!) violating the rules back in November when he insulted the community and claimed we are reponsible for the death of another person. It's supposed to be another hitpiece, similiar to the one in December 2021 from the NYT.
I already explained this here but the purpose of this forum is to provide a safe space for suicidal or struggling people in general to discuss deeply personal topics without censorship. That's the most straight-forward answer. I would add that this forum also provides a space to talk about these subjects without a forced narrative and that's one of the reasons why this place is so appealing to so many people. If you talk about your problems with anyone out there, it always comes with restrictions. If you say a little bit too loud that you are suicidal, you have to expect severe backlash and in the worst case, involuntary hospitalisation. I'll get to this point later, this is gonna be a very detailed response to the accusations directed at this community.
Another aspects what makes this forum so appealing to so many people is the fact that you can talk about your suicidality in this place without the risk of intervention. Instead, you receive honest compassion and empathy because we're all mind-liked people. We all suffer together in this place and we're all respecting each others boundaries. And that's important because I didn't experience that out there, I simply didn't. And we talk to each other with an even ground, which isn't the case when you talk to a psychiatrist for example, there is a very different power dynamic in such conversations than here. And this aspect of the forum, which has caused so many people to stay, hasn't even been mentioned once. This forum saves lives, without a doubt.
And there are people in this community that have been suffering for years for various reasons and unlike Tantacruls narrative, this community doesn't just consist of young people who are impulsive and eager to engage in harmful behavior without much thought. Tantacrul doesn't understand that nobody becomes suicidal in a vacuum. We all have valid reasons to be in this forum. He pretends that people are lured into this community for no reason and then convinced to kill themselves just for fun. That's obviously not true, I don't even know where to start when I want to debunk this claim. But reading through the registration queue and the posts in this forum from new members makes very clear to me that most members who come to this place have a long experience with mental or physical health problems. And if someone comes to this place, they specifically seek out a forum with our philosophy, for a reason. Let's make one thing clear, people register in this place voluntarily because they have needs they want to address in this forum. And that's okay.
Here are some scientific articles digging into the nature of this forum and you will realize rather quickly that scientists have called this community pro-choice repeatedly in the past. These articles provide a very nuanced insight into this community and I appreciated the work that's been done.
Now, let's dig into the next claim.
You claim that this forum consists of 4 philosophies around the nine minute mark.
1. Nihilism.
2. Anti-natalism
3. Pro-mortalism
4. Libertarianism
While the first two philosophies are actually quite common in this forum, pro-mortalism and libertarianism isn't. There might be individual members who have libertarian or efilist beliefs but to say that these are dominant philosophies as you claim is absurd. There is a reason why nihilism and anti-natalism are common themes in this forum, it's because depressed people tend to have a more negative outlook on life compared to the rest of the population. It's quite natural actually and it's not really a surprise that this community tends to be more nihilistic compared to the average population. And anti-natalism, which is also more common in this community, is a belief that's shared in this forum because many of us didn't have the best parents and sometimes, our own parents contributed to our suffering. But I'll go into details about this later.
I don't know why you claim pro-mortalism is a dominant philosophy in this forum, it's not. Again, there might be individual posters who hold a pro-mortalist belief but that's in no way representative for the entire community. And that's really important because you use this framing over the course of the entire video to portray this forum as some kind of cult that pushes people into suicide because we supposedly gain satisfaction from doing so. That's a lie. Most members here recognise that ending your life is a serious act and shouldn't be done without severe introspection. But we regularly applaud and celebrate when members announce that they're leaving the forum because they have recovered. That's a good thing. Shouldn't that be obvious? Regarding libertarianism, you seem to confuse a fundamental basic human right like self-determination for libertarianism and I don't know why how you came to that conclusion. For me, it tells me a lot about your ignorance around this topic. The right to die is a human right and the ECHR has agreed with me on that topic repeatedly.
View attachment 103738
European Center for Law and Justice
View attachment 103737
The International Journal Of Human Rights
And that's the most shared value in this forum: self-determination, you being the only decision maker when it comes to matters that affect your welfare. And for many of us in this forum, we consider the right to die a human right. This has nothing to do with libertarianism as you claim but everything with individual autonomy, those are very fundamental values of every civilisation. And you live in the UK, right? So I wonder, why don't you value the right to die as a fundamental right? Do you disagree that people should have the right to make deeply personal decisions about their own life without interference of the state? That would be a regressive idea. Are you regressive, Tantacrul? Do you want to go back to times where women and men didn't have the legal right to make their own decisions concerning their welfare? I don't really think so.
But your attempt to slander this forum as some kind of obscure cult already failed. I believe in the right to die as a human right. I think every person who consider their life unworthy of living for various reasons, and the most common reason is chronic mental and physical pain, should have a right to exercise their right to die without interference of the state. And this sentiment has just recently been reinforced by the Federal Consitutional Court of Germany, making clear in their court ruling that the right to die isn't "restriced to serious or terminal diseases or specific phases of life or of a disease". It would contradict the fact that the right to die "is rooted in human dignity" and therefore does "NOT require any additional explanation or justification". The court also made clear that the right to die "also includes the right to seek and use voluntarily offered help to do so and that's by far the most progressive court ruling to this day, validating the right to die as a basic human right.
It seems to me that your entire video is based on a misunderstanding of the right to die. You consider the right to die a controversial topic and people fighting for ways to exercise said rights must be malicious actors according to your video but that's not really the case if you do some research about the ethical consensus in various countries regarding suicide and assisted suicide too. That's very important. You claim that sharing ressources and information regarding ways to exercise our right to die is bad and evil, I say it's an act of compassion. Let's end this here and come back to this topic later.
Chapter two. What are my beliefs
[responding to "who is responsible for setting up this site?"]
You dedicate a lot of your video talking about my beliefs without actually knowing why I'm a member in this forum.
I'm a trans woman who has suffered their entire life. My childhood was ruined by neglectful parents and I've had a terrible upbringing. As a result of that I experienced suicidal ideation very early in my life. Being trans teached me that we live in a society that doesn't really give a fuck about marginalised people. That's why I have become a member in this forum. During the years I have realized that the right to die is a deeply neglected right, in the majority of the world it's surpressed and you're not really allowed to talk openly about suicide. If you want to know more about the stigma around mental health, just talk to a few members of this forum and ask them why they are active in this forum.
I'm secular. I don't believe in any religion. And I consider the right to die when you're suffering so much that you can't take it any longer a compassionate and empathic position. I think people like you who fear monger about this forum and take valid criticism to the extreme are not acting in good faith. You claim this forum has anything to do with inceldom. If you did some research, you would know that inceldom isn't really a common theme in this forum. You will find so many different groups with different backgrounds in this community, we're actually quite diverse and people are here for very different reason. We're also very heterogenic when it comes to ideology. You claim we're a cult and that we all believe in the same thing. That's not really true. We disagree on so many topics. Some members are left-wing, some are right-wing, some are socially conservative and some are more liberal. I had so many political discussions with people who had a different opinion than me and that's okay. We don't really have any common goals in this forum. The only thing that truly connects us is the need for a place to talk about deeply personal topics without censorship and a forced narrative and the idea that we should have a right to make deeply decisions without intervention of a third party. And that's it.
Here is the deal. I've been suicidal my entire life. I'm not just an admin, I'm a member myself. I'm a human. And I'm trans. I know how it feels to be trapped in this place. I know how it feels to suffer. I know how it feels when nobody seems to understand you. I know how it feels when you can't open up to anybody because you fear judgemental reactions and involuntary hospitalisation when you just say the wrong words. And I know the dire need to find relief from pain. Do you, Jonels? You, who claims to speak for all the suicidal people out there, do you represent their interests and their needs? Really?
Chapter three. Are we a cult?
[responding to "Don't seek help", "A note about cults", "Malicious actors"]
You claim that this community is a cult, giving us three indicators that this is the case.
First, a cult has a "highly peculiar" alternative ideology, which runs contrary to mainstream - you claim that applies to us.
Second, a cult has "ridicilous hostility" towards mental health professionals and the idea of treatment.
Third, a cult is notorious for cutting people off from their support networks.
I mean, honestly, these are quite vague and I haven't seen a clear definition of a cult yet that would match the purpose of this forum. You could apply the first point to any community that whose ideals aren't mainstream yet and especially with the combination of the second or even the third point, I see a common theme. You know, I'm a trans woman. And there is a long history of the media misrepresenting who we are. And you're doing a similiar thing right now. I mean, let's look at some headlines, right?
How long can the cult of transgenderism last?
The Cult of Transgenderism
The Cult of Transgenderism:My Brother's Crisis of Identity in an America Gone MadBy "Lisa" Last year, my brotherThe Trans Cult
A few years ago, three things happened in the course of a single week in my life. First, a friend told me about a letter her daughter, then 11, had received from her closest summer-camp friend. The girl had some big news: She was now a boy. Then, another mother told me she and her […]
There are prominent vocal right-wingers who use exactly the same points to go after trans people. They call us the LGBT cult, they claim we groom children.
Libs of TikTok Goes on Tucker to Call LGBTQ Community a ‘Cult’ with ‘Evil People’ Who Want To Groom Kids
Fox News host Tucker Carlson sat down with the formerly anonymous creator Chaya Raichik, who declared the "LGBTQ community" has become a "cult."The Problem With How We Talk About Grooming
Allegations against Broadway star Alice Ripley, as well as a recent story about Millie Bobby Brown, sparked discussion about "grooming."Tucker Carlson and Libs of TikTok Spread Transphobia for the Holidays
Libs of TikTok creator Chaya Raichik called the LGBTQ community a "cult" and pushed more baseless grooming rumors on 'Tucker Carlson Today.'
It's exactly the same thing. If you apply some bad faith, you can make any movement look bad with the right framing. And that's you're doing right now. Congrats Tantacrul, you learned from the best. Take very vague descriptions of a cult and apply them without any nuance and consideration for context to the entire community and ooops, we look like the bad guys.
What do you know about me? Nothing. But you have no problem smearing me as a bad-faith actor, as someone who simply acts on bad intentions. I mean, that's a common theme, you know. I belong to many subcultures that have endured the same slander. I'm transgender, that's why I immediately knew where your narrative is coming from. Do you see how the media hounds us trans people? The way you talk about this community of struggling people comes from the same place of judgement. We're victims, not perpetrators. You're just a different color of judgement. This time you're not lashing out against trans people who supposedly groom vulnerable people, you're lashing out against suicidal people who supposedly do the same. Suicidal people who appreciate this forum, people who voluntarily seeked this community as a source of support. And don't they have a right to have a safe space without the forced narratives, the same bullshit you're pulling right now on suicidal people? Oh no, "we need to save them", right? We need to get the nanny state to take down this community, right? That's what you're doing right now but you're not speaking for anyone. You're only speaking for yourself and your language is bigotry.
Next, you you said this community is an echo chamber of negative thoughts and nihilistic view points and you claim to prove that with how many examples? 5 posts? 6 posts? Are these representative examples of the entire community? You mentioned "Cake123" who has several thousand posts but why are they representative of the entire community? You're cherry picking members who suit your narrative, we have members in this forum with even more posts who disagree with that particular member. I just want to make something clear. We have 1'700'000 posts in this forum and we have over 26'000 members and you pick a few anecdotal(!) cases, intentionally leaving out important context to paint a narrative I've already debunked repeatedly before, for example when I responded to the NYT article. So if you think debunking your video is gonna be difficult, you're mistaken, Tantarcul. As I just said, we have several thousand members who came to this place because it gave them something. Do you speak for them? You claim this forum has 10 million monthly visitors on average, doesn't that send a message to you, Tantacrul? Do you really speak for people who are struggling or are you just merely pretending to be talking for them? Maybe that's the problem. Let's make one thing clear, you are talking about suicidal people and not(!) for them. You haven't really engaged with this community in good faith and maybe that's the reason why people rather come to us? Who would want to seek support from someone who slanders 25k suicidal people, people who are literally suffering so much, as a cult of predators? That's so telling. It's always the same with you people, it's only judgemental toxic slander. Every single time and you always think it's so brilliant...
There are several scientific studies researching this forum and none of them describe this community as pro-mortalist. We might have individual members, vocal members who subscribe to an efilist worldview but then again, this is a forum for adults so shouldn't they have a right to speak their mind? That's the point of this forum, right? Being able to speak your mind in a safe space, right? That's absolutely the contrary of a cult. And all the active members who clearly disagree with me on various subjects prove that point.
Next, you take one case of someone who has been convicted and sentenced for doing things to other people outside of this forum and imply that we are in some way responsible for this. Again, predators exist in every community.
MySpace, Facebook attract online predators
If you don't know what it means to “facebook” someone, then odds are you don't have any young people in your house who do it all the time. It means to look for details about a person on any of the booming Internet sites where people post details about themselves. It's hugely popular, but police...Playstation Pedophiles « Filtering Facts
They're on Facebook, Youtube, Twitter, they are on Twitch, they have been on MySpace - pretending that this has anything to do with this forum just proves you're ignorant about the nature of the internet. Yeah, this forum does attract a few bad apples due to the nature of this forum but keep in mind, you have have one(!) conviction for a forum with 25k members that has existed for over 5 years and the conviction itself has nothing to do with the purpose of this community. This guy deserved to get punished for violating other people for sexual pleasure. I have no problem saying that. But are predators overrepresented in this community or are you just framing this forum in a particularly bad way with one singular case of a crime? Again, this community has 25k members. How representative is your little anecdotal case then? Not very representative at all, am I right?
Yeah, that's what I thought. Of course a community like ours that has vulnerable people (which doesn't translate to "no individual autonomy" btw) attracts bad apples. If we have reasonable doubts about someones intention, we reserve our right to boot them from the community. But you can't reads minds, that's why you're assuming I'm a bad-faith actor, and I can't read minds, that's why I don't know the intentions of people who come to this community. It's as simple as that. Of course I could ban anyone I consider dubious but who wants to be in a community where I single-handedly rule who is allowed to be here and who isnt?
Chapter four. Protecting the vulnerable
[responding to "protecting the vulnerable"]
You bring up the fact that people need to agree that they are of sound mind when they use the website. You quote a professor who said "People... take their own lives when they can see no end to their pain, when they feel trapped by it and that there is no way. Like physical pain, there is only so much mental pain that we can withstand and, when we reach our limit, something has to give. Sadly, for too many people, it is life that gives".
What an absurd quote. First of all, it implies that any kind of pain is temporary and that relief from pain is never an option if it results in someone's decision to exercise their right to die. I think your quote doesn't actually delegitimize the forum, it legitimizes it, making clear that some pain is so difficult to endure that providing relief in the form of death is an act of mercy. That's the key philosophy behind assisted suicide. What's the problem here? How does that relate to the forum?
And you criticise that we don't protect vulnerable people enough. Well, luckily I already addressed that talking point in a previous thread. Being vulnerable doesn't mean you are unable to make rational decisions, see this study:
Mental capacity in psychiatric patients: Systematic review - PubMed
Mental capacity can be reliably assessed. The majority of psychiatric in-patients have capacity, and socio-demographic variables do not have a major impact but clinical ones do.
I have to reject your entire premise based on that scientific study. I think vulnerable people have a right to individual autonomy, so they also have right to make decisions they consider appropiate for the current situation. We both know protecting "vulnerabel people" is a scape goat to go after all people who are struggling, it's a deeply regressive notion, it's an extension of the "think of the children"-fallacy and it comes from a social-conservative interpretion of liberty. I don't even know why you bring up that topic in the first place, it's not a topic specific to this forum, the question if vulnerable people should roam the internet freely without any protections is a conversation we should have when we talk about safety on the internet in general and if it's okay to infringe on the individual autonomy of adults in certain situations. But as I said, I reject your premise and the study I've linked seems to agree with me.
You're also implying that a distressed mental state is only temporary but how do you know? We had member in this forum who experience strong depression and suicidality for years, myself included by the way. What's the point of that talking point? We simply don't know if someone can recover from their struggle. I know a lot of people can't. Are we just gonna throw them under the bus and prolong their life indefinitely even when they scream and yell for relief? Is that a compassionate position?
As I said, you shouldn't pretend to talk for suicidal people. You don't. You have no idea about the subject matter and you should have sticked to music.
How do you even know if people who register in this community don't have the mental capacity to use this forum? It's just an assumption, nothing else. I think people who specifically seek out the content of this forum know what they want. And most people here don't sound like they're in some kind of episode as you suggest. The vast majority of members can describe very well why they are here. If you just spent a little bit of time here instead of being a judgemental dork, you would realize that we have plenty of members who have been struggling for years without relief. And you're essentially sitting on your chair, probably not knowing what it means to suffer, and you scream you want more, you want more? More of what? More suffering? And you think that's the compassionate position?
Chapter five. Instruction threads and the "marketplace"
[responding to "the instructions thread", "the marketplace"]
You're implying we work with Exit. It's a conspiracy theory. The forum doesn't make any profit, period. Your claim that this forum is illegal in most countries is therefore incorrect. Nobody is allowed to sell anything on the forum. If we find out, we take action. Your claim that the forum works as a marketplace is therefore false as well. You shouldn't listen so much to Kelli. She doesn't understand anything and she is simply spreading misinformation to make the forum look twice as bad. But I'll talk about her later.
Not a good look, Tantacrul. The website isn't illegal, that's why we're still here. There have been countless attempts to deplatform us, don't worry. Shout as much as you want.
Chapter six. Bobby C
[responding to "assisting those below 18"]
You claim that we knew who Bobby C was. We don't. It's as simple as that. It's all just really a fallacy. He was a member of your community too, right? So I could ask, hey why didn't this guy feel comfortable enough to open up in your server if you're such a great guy? I could play the same blame game but that doesn't really bring us anywhere. We can all point the fingers all day long and pretend this forum the only factor when it comes to someones decision to make a tragic choice. That's not the case and you know that. I'm just curious, why did you start caring about that guy when it was too late? Do you even care or is this video just an attempt to virtue signal what a great person you are? Your choice.
Chapter seven. Responsible reporting
Right at the very start, (at the 4 minute mark) Tantacrul claims that he wants to follow guidelines on media reporting about suicide and that's why he claims he doesn't want to mention the name of the website. But there is a just a problem. He already liked and followed several people on Twitter who have the name of the website in their bio. So it's unavoidable that his community will find its way to this forum.
View attachment 103733
If someone from his audience wants to dig a little bit deeper into the forum that's mentioned in his video, it's not gonna be very difficult to find it, thanks to him following people who use social media to spread awareness about this community. So let's make one thing clear. He intentionally exposes his audience to this forum, I consider this a little bit hypocritical. Just to make clear who acts responsible in this situation. And here is the thing, based on the screenshots you've included in your video, people will find this forum. What do you think happened every time when a news outlet covered the existence of this forum? It increased our member count.
It was a big mistake to talk about this forum because as I'm writing this thread, just a few hours after you published your video, we already had thousands of guests. The registration queue spiked, depressed people from your community want to join our forum. I'm asking you right now, given you think this is a very bad place: can you live with the guilt, when your audience makes accounts in this forum, a place that's apparently so bad, it needs political legislation to be taken down?
View attachment 103740
"Everyone's got their priority I suppose."
Your goal to follow media guidelines already backfired. And if you really think your video is gonna change anything, after the NYT already covered us on their front page, you're mistaken. I can defend my position, this community and the existence of this forum with a clear conscience. I've done this repeatedly in the past. And you know why I did that? Because I believe in something. I believe in individual autonomy and I believe in compassionate treatment of struggling people, so much, that I dedicate a large junk of my life for that cause. I don't spend a lot of time taking down what other people have built, I spent my time maintaining this community because I believe it's a good thing. And what are you doing? You're making a video concern trolling about this forum but I can assure you, if you read the messages I've read of people who were bedridden, haunted with so much physical pain they couldn't even leave their bed anymore, you'd think twice about posting such a video, throwing these people under the bus. No, if you have talked to these people, you would become an activist for compassionate treatment of these people and that includes the right to die. Because, here is the deal, for some people, the only relief from pain is death. That's why in my country we legalized assisted suicide to the fullest extend. The right to die is a neglected topic, almost every single country outlawed assisted suicide but there is a need for it, and that's why this forum has legitimacy and that's why people seek to participate in this forum. It's all about neglected needs. I live in one of the few countries that legalized assisted suicide. You don't. You don't want the forum to exist? Then get to work and make sure the people that write desperate messages to me don't have to use this forum to find peace in their last moments of their life.
Chapter eight. Who are the opponents of Sanctioned Suicide?
[responding to "taking action"]
A lot of your information is based on claims from people you call "grieving family members". The spearhead of these grieving parents is Kelli. She leads FixThe26 and is the most vocal opponent of this forum. I have thought about this for a long time but given that these people still successfully pretend to be victims, I have to break my silence about the behavior of these people. FixThe26 and the woman who is behind that organisation has a history of harassing, slandering, stalking, mocking and threatening members of our community. When she doxed Mahakali, a well-known member here, posting a picture of her on Twitter, it enraged the entire community. Let's take a look at her actions.
View attachment 103744
View attachment 103743
I have censored the image. Kelli didn't censor it. It was an attempt to silence a critic. Someone who has been a member in the forum. I talked to Mahakali and she confirmed that this instance here greatly contributed to her suffering. This is enough to push someone over the edge. She died one month later.
View attachment 103741
Here she encouraged physical violence on the past site owner, saying he should get publicly executed. Lynch mob. This is a woman that's highly unstable and she has every reason to spread misinformation and outright lies about this community. I know you didn't know that, Tantacrul. But maybe you should have done your research. You think I made it up? Just recently her account twitter.com/fixthe26 got suspended, finally.
View attachment 103745
She engaged in so much targeted harassement and abuse. There are more victims. And all the other family members you included in your video, I'm not gonna name them to protect their identity, have engaged in similiar behavior. Someone celebrated when a member of our community committed suicide after months of abuse and bullying she directed towards that member. They love to play with the identity, leak names. They play the intimidation games really well. Jeremy, an ex-member who has done an interview for Fixthe26, has stalked and harassed a trans member of our community. The list is long. But this thread isn't about these people, I don't play these games. This thread is about your inability to do proper research and take everything they say for granted to craft a narrative that's dangerous to say the least.
But here is the deal. These people aren't victims. They didn't take their own life. They're predators. And it's important to know that not one single "grieving parent" so far has condemned what Kelli has done under that username, the opposite is the case. They all engage in the same kind of harassement towards members of this community. Kelli has already created a new account, twitter.com/SanctionedStop. She is actively cirumcumventing her Twitter ban. So once again, these people weaponized grief. They have spread so many lies about this community and when I took leadership of this community, they did the same to me.
And look. I'm not gonna tell you what to think. I'm a free thinker, not a cultist as you claim. You can make up your own mind. But you should ask yourself, why are the most vocal opponents of this forum predators who harass and stalk individuals like that?
Read this thread if you want to know more about these people and their shady behavior.
Last but not least, these screenshot of me supposedly attacking these people doesn't display anything I have written. As I said, these people have every reason to spread misinformation. Every time someone takes time to criticise them on Twitter, they claim it's me. As if I don't have better things to do than create account after account after account. And if you knew what else they think to know about me, you would know that they don't know anything about me. They're not gonna like that, but that's the truth.
Chapter nine. Online safety bill
[responding to "taking action"]
I already wrote a thread about this and if you value freedom of speech and privacy, you shouldn't support it.
Chapter ten. The mental health system
[responding to "Please seek help. You are not alone."]
Last but not least you finally address the flaws in our system. I'm impressed. Your video takes 46 minutes to watch and you dedicate a few seconds when the video is about to end about the mental health system. Did you address coercision as a common practice? Human rights violations? No. You just claim there are a few problems and that's it, for example that many of us can't talk about being suicidal because we get shamed. But do you even understand the scope of the problem? It's not just about shaming people, which is one of the reasons people would rather come to this forum to discuss deeply personal issues, it's about coercision on a systemic level. Human rights violations. You can get locked up if you tell your doctor that you're suicidal. Talking about your suicidality is a game with fire, I have played it before and you can burn yourself really badly.
So when you claim that this forum or the community has cult-like behavior, referring to members of this community spreading negative sentiments towards mental health institutions or their parents, there is a fucking reason. First of all, I never did any of that, okay. I'm not aware that we are discouraging people from talking to important people in their lives about their problems. But we also need to look at the circumstances of most members in this community. I just recently launched a poll, asking members if their parents contributed to their suffering because my parents certainly played their role when it comes to my struggles. And according to that poll, around 75%(!) of all respondents said their parents contributed in some way to their struggles. So wouldn't it only be a natural theme of this community that members distrust their parents in some way? You don't think there is a very personal reason why so many of us are anti-natalists? And most importantly, many of us dealt with traumatic experiencs around involuntary hospitalisation, then again, wouldn't it be only natural to have concerns around that, especially when they neglect our individual autonomy and our bodily integrity, which are very fundamental concepts of any civilisation? I had close friends of mine describe very horrible and traumatic experiences, which happened as a result of involuntary hospitalisation, some even said they would rather die(!) then ever go back. Maybe you're simply arguing from a position of ignorance, Tantacrul. And maybe you said all of these things about this community because you don't really care about the well being of suicidal people, about the horrible human rights violations we have to endure in these institutions when we open up. Maybe that's the reason why all of that was so easy for you to say but you forget that the people you blame are the same people you claim to care so much about. Odd, isn't it. Again, if people in this community have a negative opinion of their family members or of their doctors, there is certainly a reason for that.
And about mental health, here is a tweet from someone who has recently committed suicide. She was a suicide prevention activist.
Maybe, the problem with mental health isn't just that you get shamed a little bit if you open up, you donk. Look here.
'Toxic culture' of abuse at mental health hospital revealed by BBC secret filming
BBC Panorama goes undercover and finds patients being humiliated, verbally abused and bullied by staff.www.bbc.co.uk
Maybe that gives you a hint? Come on.
And look, I also want to get one point across. No amount of therapy fixes physical or mental pain, political discrimination and financial problems. There are some problems you can't fix with the mental health system because we live in a society that doesn't really care about struggling people. You want some examples from a trans woman?
Oklahoma Could Force Trans People Under 26 Years Old To Detransition Medically
A new bill has been filed in Oklahoma that would ban gender affirming care under age 26. Republican states are moving towards banning transition entirely.UK government blocks Scotland's new gender recognition law | CNN
The UK government has blocked a new law intended to allow trans people in Scotland to change their legal gender without a medical diagnosis -- a controversial move that has added fuel to the already highly emotional debate over Scottish independence.
So you're essentially defending that system with that video and blaming us for speaking out. You're a part of the problem. I live in a country with a high rate of involuntary hospitalisation and it's not cool. You really need to be careful with your words if you value your freedom, especially when you're suicidal and talking to a doctor.
And let's make some things clear, before I end my response to your poorly researched video. You ended your video on this note:
"Every step closer can connect someone to life and the help they want, sometimes those steps are big but sometimes, all it takes is a smile"
That's literally how you decided to end that video, your most meaningful video ever - with an empty platitude. Do you think people in this community who are in so much pain that they literally want to end their lives want your smile? It just proves all over again that you have no idea about the suffering that's happening in this community. You're blind and you'll never be able to understand. Do you think that was a smart way to end the video? It wasn't. You're the perfect example of everything that's wrong with this society. You just showed us every problem with suicide, the way we handle it both as a societal problem but also as a human right. And it shows me you don't care.
My compassion for people doesn't end with suicide prevention. Suicide prevention without addressing systemic issues that causes suidiality in the first place is meaningless. There are so many problems in this world, repeating the suicide hotline every time you talk about suicide is merely a bandaid but it doesn't fix anything. I want more people to live happy and decent lives but those who want a way out, should have a way out. 99% of the world outlawed assisted suicide and you point the finger to that one forum that that breaks the stigma around the right to die?
I'm done with my response. I think I made my case. And I think I was very clear about my opinion. It took a lot of time to write that. Thanks for reading.
I hope you all take care of this cagie.
nomotels1443
me and the birds
- Dec 19, 2022
- 27
I'm just gonna say this: I've tried to get help. Gotten help for years and years and it hasn't gotten better. All I'm doing is letting myself be miserable while worrying everyone else and wasting their time. No, I don't need anymore hope or help. What is there that can be done now? Goddamn drugs? Just let me go.
epic
Enlightened
- Aug 9, 2019
- 1,813
iLikeFrogs
Most likely dissociating
- May 5, 2023
- 98
I am so glad I didn't watch his video and decided to look here myself. But the fact that I've been searching for a forum like this for a good while made me lurk here and I know that normal people won't do that and would want to bring this place down. Also, it's disgusting how he made our community look like we're a bunch of creeps from amino whose only point of living is to drive minors to suicide. We're just a bunch of people who are troubled and we are pro recovery and anti minors on pages like this. Also, it's important to notice that this site is very useful and no matter how it sounds it reduces harm. Euthanasia and MAID aren't legal in all countries and having resources here helps to ctb the safe way (the way that you know all the pros and cons of methods and all the chances that you'll survive and end up in a wheelchair or worse). My great-grandfather hung himself because he had brain cancer and at the time he did this he knew that it was either this or a long painful death in the hospital. I'm in a very bad place and I've been getting help for years and I still get worse and worse again. There's a reason why one should be able to decide if they want to live or not. By robbing us from a place where we can talk about things we usually can't talk about and support each other, Tanracrul's doing more harm than good.
The Tablet
drawing myself to death ❀
- Jul 8, 2021
- 52
i want to fucking strangle him. holy shit.
he never once addresses how mental health (((professionals))) love locking up those they deem to be a "risk to themselves" or whatever, btw. he just says "they're really helpful trust me bro
" and leaves it at that. very well-formed argument there, buddy </s>
also, the whole "SS is a traffic funnel to exit" point is actually braindead. brother, if that were the case, why the fuck would there be links that allow you to download the PPeH for free, i.e., WITHOUT having to pay for an exit international subscription????
@Jonels, if you're reading this.... well. normally i'd say "kys", but honestly, creatures like you don't deserve the sweet release of death. hopefully you'll experience a similar amount of suffering to the people you trample on and speak over in your dogshit (((video))).
he never once addresses how mental health (((professionals))) love locking up those they deem to be a "risk to themselves" or whatever, btw. he just says "they're really helpful trust me bro
" and leaves it at that. very well-formed argument there, buddy </s>also, the whole "SS is a traffic funnel to exit" point is actually braindead. brother, if that were the case, why the fuck would there be links that allow you to download the PPeH for free, i.e., WITHOUT having to pay for an exit international subscription????
@Jonels, if you're reading this.... well. normally i'd say "kys", but honestly, creatures like you don't deserve the sweet release of death. hopefully you'll experience a similar amount of suffering to the people you trample on and speak over in your dogshit (((video))).
ringo99
Arcanist
- Apr 18, 2023
- 418
His video is full of cherry picked instances that conveniently ignore the broader views of this community as a whole. He barely acknowledges the fact that there's more than one forum here. If he worked in data analytics he'd be fired in less than a week. The data he's collected and the conclusions he draws from it are so idiotically biased it's honestly surprising how so many people are commenting positively in his channel. He's probably the genius who did the original data collection and analysis for Mike Lindell's election fraud bullshit
Most of the crap he's spewing is designed to manipulate emotions for views with zero attempt at objectivity.
Most of the crap he's spewing is designed to manipulate emotions for views with zero attempt at objectivity.
PurpleVoid
There's nothing left for me, but I'm still here.
- May 16, 2023
- 25
The comments on that video are very aggressive towards us. :-/
When I arrived here it took me a while to realize that this was even the same website he was talking about. I was expecting a bunch of people making suicide pacts and daring each other into CTB. I didn't expect that there would be a Recovery forum because he doesn't even mention it.
When I arrived here it took me a while to realize that this was even the same website he was talking about. I was expecting a bunch of people making suicide pacts and daring each other into CTB. I didn't expect that there would be a Recovery forum because he doesn't even mention it.
Pillow_chatmallow
New Member
- May 19, 2023
- 4
The youtuber Tantacrul, also known in this forum as @Jonels, finally recorded a video about this community, in which he slandered and insulted our members and I've decided to respond to him directly. He has been obsessed with this forum for the last few weeks, creating alt-account after alt-account to force his narrative on other people. A little reminder on how all of this started, back in November 2022.
These are some snippets of his posts before I kicked him from this community. I made pretty clear in that thread that he is allowed to use this forum and express criticism towards this forum as long as it's fair and in good faith. It's obvious from the posts above that this wasn't the case so I gave him the boot. As a result of that, he announced that he would make a video about this forum. It's pretty obvious that all of this is done solely because he wants to cause damage to this community because we didn't give him a platform for his immature behavior. And look, Tantacrul, you might not mention me and this forum by name but I'll mention you by name.
Chapter one. The real philosophy of this website
[responding to "How does the site work?", "The philosophy of this site"]
What's the purpose of this forum? Obviously Tantacrul isn't really interested in portraying this forum in a fair light, the video he made obviously doesn't have the intention to start a discussion about the moral implications of this forum with fair arguments. It's a direct response of us banning him for repeatedly(!) violating the rules back in November when he insulted the community and claimed we are reponsible for the death of another person. It's supposed to be another hitpiece, similiar to the one in December 2021 from the NYT.
I already explained this here but the purpose of this forum is to provide a safe space for suicidal or struggling people in general to discuss deeply personal topics without censorship. That's the most straight-forward answer. I would add that this forum also provides a space to talk about these subjects without a forced narrative and that's one of the reasons why this place is so appealing to so many people. If you talk about your problems with anyone out there, it always comes with restrictions. If you say a little bit too loud that you are suicidal, you have to expect severe backlash and in the worst case, involuntary hospitalisation. I'll get to this point later, this is gonna be a very detailed response to the accusations directed at this community.
Another aspects what makes this forum so appealing to so many people is the fact that you can talk about your suicidality in this place without the risk of intervention. Instead, you receive honest compassion and empathy because we're all mind-liked people. We all suffer together in this place and we're all respecting each others boundaries. And that's important because I didn't experience that out there, I simply didn't. And we talk to each other with an even ground, which isn't the case when you talk to a psychiatrist for example, there is a very different power dynamic in such conversations than here. And this aspect of the forum, which has caused so many people to stay, hasn't even been mentioned once. This forum saves lives, without a doubt.
And there are people in this community that have been suffering for years for various reasons and unlike Tantacruls narrative, this community doesn't just consist of young people who are impulsive and eager to engage in harmful behavior without much thought. Tantacrul doesn't understand that nobody becomes suicidal in a vacuum. We all have valid reasons to be in this forum. He pretends that people are lured into this community for no reason and then convinced to kill themselves just for fun. That's obviously not true, I don't even know where to start when I want to debunk this claim. But reading through the registration queue and the posts in this forum from new members makes very clear to me that most members who come to this place have a long experience with mental or physical health problems. And if someone comes to this place, they specifically seek out a forum with our philosophy, for a reason. Let's make one thing clear, people register in this place voluntarily because they have needs they want to address in this forum. And that's okay.
Here are some scientific articles digging into the nature of this forum and you will realize rather quickly that scientists have called this community pro-choice repeatedly in the past. These articles provide a very nuanced insight into this community and I appreciated the work that's been done.
Now, let's dig into the next claim.
You claim that this forum consists of 4 philosophies around the nine minute mark.
1. Nihilism.
2. Anti-natalism
3. Pro-mortalism
4. Libertarianism
While the first two philosophies are actually quite common in this forum, pro-mortalism and libertarianism isn't. There might be individual members who have libertarian or efilist beliefs but to say that these are dominant philosophies as you claim is absurd. There is a reason why nihilism and anti-natalism are common themes in this forum, it's because depressed people tend to have a more negative outlook on life compared to the rest of the population. It's quite natural actually and it's not really a surprise that this community tends to be more nihilistic compared to the average population. And anti-natalism, which is also more common in this community, is a belief that's shared in this forum because many of us didn't have the best parents and sometimes, our own parents contributed to our suffering. But I'll go into details about this later.
I don't know why you claim pro-mortalism is a dominant philosophy in this forum, it's not. Again, there might be individual posters who hold a pro-mortalist belief but that's in no way representative for the entire community. And that's really important because you use this framing over the course of the entire video to portray this forum as some kind of cult that pushes people into suicide because we supposedly gain satisfaction from doing so. That's a lie. Most members here recognise that ending your life is a serious act and shouldn't be done without severe introspection. But we regularly applaud and celebrate when members announce that they're leaving the forum because they have recovered. That's a good thing. Shouldn't that be obvious? Regarding libertarianism, you seem to confuse a fundamental basic human right like self-determination for libertarianism and I don't know why how you came to that conclusion. For me, it tells me a lot about your ignorance around this topic. The right to die is a human right and the ECHR has agreed with me on that topic repeatedly.
View attachment 103738
European Center for Law and Justice
View attachment 103737
The International Journal Of Human Rights
And that's the most shared value in this forum: self-determination, you being the only decision maker when it comes to matters that affect your welfare. And for many of us in this forum, we consider the right to die a human right. This has nothing to do with libertarianism as you claim but everything with individual autonomy, those are very fundamental values of every civilisation. And you live in the UK, right? So I wonder, why don't you value the right to die as a fundamental right? Do you disagree that people should have the right to make deeply personal decisions about their own life without interference of the state? That would be a regressive idea. Are you regressive, Tantacrul? Do you want to go back to times where women and men didn't have the legal right to make their own decisions concerning their welfare? I don't really think so.
But your attempt to slander this forum as some kind of obscure cult already failed. I believe in the right to die as a human right. I think every person who consider their life unworthy of living for various reasons, and the most common reason is chronic mental and physical pain, should have a right to exercise their right to die without interference of the state. And this sentiment has just recently been reinforced by the Federal Consitutional Court of Germany, making clear in their court ruling that the right to die isn't "restriced to serious or terminal diseases or specific phases of life or of a disease". It would contradict the fact that the right to die "is rooted in human dignity" and therefore does "NOT require any additional explanation or justification". The court also made clear that the right to die "also includes the right to seek and use voluntarily offered help to do so and that's by far the most progressive court ruling to this day, validating the right to die as a basic human right.
It seems to me that your entire video is based on a misunderstanding of the right to die. You consider the right to die a controversial topic and people fighting for ways to exercise said rights must be malicious actors according to your video but that's not really the case if you do some research about the ethical consensus in various countries regarding suicide and assisted suicide too. That's very important. You claim that sharing ressources and information regarding ways to exercise our right to die is bad and evil, I say it's an act of compassion. Let's end this here and come back to this topic later.
Chapter two. What are my beliefs
[responding to "who is responsible for setting up this site?"]
You dedicate a lot of your video talking about my beliefs without actually knowing why I'm a member in this forum.
I'm a trans woman who has suffered their entire life. My childhood was ruined by neglectful parents and I've had a terrible upbringing. As a result of that I experienced suicidal ideation very early in my life. Being trans teached me that we live in a society that doesn't really give a fuck about marginalised people. That's why I have become a member in this forum. During the years I have realized that the right to die is a deeply neglected right, in the majority of the world it's surpressed and you're not really allowed to talk openly about suicide. If you want to know more about the stigma around mental health, just talk to a few members of this forum and ask them why they are active in this forum.
I'm secular. I don't believe in any religion. And I consider the right to die when you're suffering so much that you can't take it any longer a compassionate and empathic position. I think people like you who fear monger about this forum and take valid criticism to the extreme are not acting in good faith. You claim this forum has anything to do with inceldom. If you did some research, you would know that inceldom isn't really a common theme in this forum. You will find so many different groups with different backgrounds in this community, we're actually quite diverse and people are here for very different reason. We're also very heterogenic when it comes to ideology. You claim we're a cult and that we all believe in the same thing. That's not really true. We disagree on so many topics. Some members are left-wing, some are right-wing, some are socially conservative and some are more liberal. I had so many political discussions with people who had a different opinion than me and that's okay. We don't really have any common goals in this forum. The only thing that truly connects us is the need for a place to talk about deeply personal topics without censorship and a forced narrative and the idea that we should have a right to make deeply decisions without intervention of a third party. And that's it.
Here is the deal. I've been suicidal my entire life. I'm not just an admin, I'm a member myself. I'm a human. And I'm trans. I know how it feels to be trapped in this place. I know how it feels to suffer. I know how it feels when nobody seems to understand you. I know how it feels when you can't open up to anybody because you fear judgemental reactions and involuntary hospitalisation when you just say the wrong words. And I know the dire need to find relief from pain. Do you, Jonels? You, who claims to speak for all the suicidal people out there, do you represent their interests and their needs? Really?
Chapter three. Are we a cult?
[responding to "Don't seek help", "A note about cults", "Malicious actors"]
You claim that this community is a cult, giving us three indicators that this is the case.
First, a cult has a "highly peculiar" alternative ideology, which runs contrary to mainstream - you claim that applies to us.
Second, a cult has "ridicilous hostility" towards mental health professionals and the idea of treatment.
Third, a cult is notorious for cutting people off from their support networks.
I mean, honestly, these are quite vague and I haven't seen a clear definition of a cult yet that would match the purpose of this forum. You could apply the first point to any community that whose ideals aren't mainstream yet and especially with the combination of the second or even the third point, I see a common theme. You know, I'm a trans woman. And there is a long history of the media misrepresenting who we are. And you're doing a similiar thing right now. I mean, let's look at some headlines, right?
How long can the cult of transgenderism last?
The Cult of Transgenderism
The Cult of Transgenderism:My Brother's Crisis of Identity in an America Gone MadBy "Lisa" Last year, my brotherThe Trans Cult
A few years ago, three things happened in the course of a single week in my life. First, a friend told me about a letter her daughter, then 11, had received from her closest summer-camp friend. The girl had some big news: She was now a boy. Then, another mother told me she and her […]
There are prominent vocal right-wingers who use exactly the same points to go after trans people. They call us the LGBT cult, they claim we groom children.
Libs of TikTok Goes on Tucker to Call LGBTQ Community a ‘Cult’ with ‘Evil People’ Who Want To Groom Kids
Fox News host Tucker Carlson sat down with the formerly anonymous creator Chaya Raichik, who declared the "LGBTQ community" has become a "cult."The Problem With How We Talk About Grooming
Allegations against Broadway star Alice Ripley, as well as a recent story about Millie Bobby Brown, sparked discussion about "grooming."Tucker Carlson and Libs of TikTok Spread Transphobia for the Holidays
Libs of TikTok creator Chaya Raichik called the LGBTQ community a "cult" and pushed more baseless grooming rumors on 'Tucker Carlson Today.'
It's exactly the same thing. If you apply some bad faith, you can make any movement look bad with the right framing. And that's you're doing right now. Congrats Tantacrul, you learned from the best. Take very vague descriptions of a cult and apply them without any nuance and consideration for context to the entire community and ooops, we look like the bad guys.
What do you know about me? Nothing. But you have no problem smearing me as a bad-faith actor, as someone who simply acts on bad intentions. I mean, that's a common theme, you know. I belong to many subcultures that have endured the same slander. I'm transgender, that's why I immediately knew where your narrative is coming from. Do you see how the media hounds us trans people? The way you talk about this community of struggling people comes from the same place of judgement. We're victims, not perpetrators. You're just a different color of judgement. This time you're not lashing out against trans people who supposedly groom vulnerable people, you're lashing out against suicidal people who supposedly do the same. Suicidal people who appreciate this forum, people who voluntarily seeked this community as a source of support. And don't they have a right to have a safe space without the forced narratives, the same bullshit you're pulling right now on suicidal people? Oh no, "we need to save them", right? We need to get the nanny state to take down this community, right? That's what you're doing right now but you're not speaking for anyone. You're only speaking for yourself and your language is bigotry.
Next, you you said this community is an echo chamber of negative thoughts and nihilistic view points and you claim to prove that with how many examples? 5 posts? 6 posts? Are these representative examples of the entire community? You mentioned "Cake123" who has several thousand posts but why are they representative of the entire community? You're cherry picking members who suit your narrative, we have members in this forum with even more posts who disagree with that particular member. I just want to make something clear. We have 1'700'000 posts in this forum and we have over 26'000 members and you pick a few anecdotal(!) cases, intentionally leaving out important context to paint a narrative I've already debunked repeatedly before, for example when I responded to the NYT article. So if you think debunking your video is gonna be difficult, you're mistaken, Tantarcul. As I just said, we have several thousand members who came to this place because it gave them something. Do you speak for them? You claim this forum has 10 million monthly visitors on average, doesn't that send a message to you, Tantacrul? Do you really speak for people who are struggling or are you just merely pretending to be talking for them? Maybe that's the problem. Let's make one thing clear, you are talking about suicidal people and not(!) for them. You haven't really engaged with this community in good faith and maybe that's the reason why people rather come to us? Who would want to seek support from someone who slanders 25k suicidal people, people who are literally suffering so much, as a cult of predators? That's so telling. It's always the same with you people, it's only judgemental toxic slander. Every single time and you always think it's so brilliant...
There are several scientific studies researching this forum and none of them describe this community as pro-mortalist. We might have individual members, vocal members who subscribe to an efilist worldview but then again, this is a forum for adults so shouldn't they have a right to speak their mind? That's the point of this forum, right? Being able to speak your mind in a safe space, right? That's absolutely the contrary of a cult. And all the active members who clearly disagree with me on various subjects prove that point.
Next, you take one case of someone who has been convicted and sentenced for doing things to other people outside of this forum and imply that we are in some way responsible for this. Again, predators exist in every community.
MySpace, Facebook attract online predators
If you don't know what it means to “facebook” someone, then odds are you don't have any young people in your house who do it all the time. It means to look for details about a person on any of the booming Internet sites where people post details about themselves. It's hugely popular, but police...Playstation Pedophiles « Filtering Facts
They're on Facebook, Youtube, Twitter, they are on Twitch, they have been on MySpace - pretending that this has anything to do with this forum just proves you're ignorant about the nature of the internet. Yeah, this forum does attract a few bad apples due to the nature of this forum but keep in mind, you have have one(!) conviction for a forum with 25k members that has existed for over 5 years and the conviction itself has nothing to do with the purpose of this community. This guy deserved to get punished for violating other people for sexual pleasure. I have no problem saying that. But are predators overrepresented in this community or are you just framing this forum in a particularly bad way with one singular case of a crime? Again, this community has 25k members. How representative is your little anecdotal case then? Not very representative at all, am I right?
Yeah, that's what I thought. Of course a community like ours that has vulnerable people (which doesn't translate to "no individual autonomy" btw) attracts bad apples. If we have reasonable doubts about someones intention, we reserve our right to boot them from the community. But you can't reads minds, that's why you're assuming I'm a bad-faith actor, and I can't read minds, that's why I don't know the intentions of people who come to this community. It's as simple as that. Of course I could ban anyone I consider dubious but who wants to be in a community where I single-handedly rule who is allowed to be here and who isnt?
Chapter four. Protecting the vulnerable
[responding to "protecting the vulnerable"]
You bring up the fact that people need to agree that they are of sound mind when they use the website. You quote a professor who said "People... take their own lives when they can see no end to their pain, when they feel trapped by it and that there is no way. Like physical pain, there is only so much mental pain that we can withstand and, when we reach our limit, something has to give. Sadly, for too many people, it is life that gives".
What an absurd quote. First of all, it implies that any kind of pain is temporary and that relief from pain is never an option if it results in someone's decision to exercise their right to die. I think your quote doesn't actually delegitimize the forum, it legitimizes it, making clear that some pain is so difficult to endure that providing relief in the form of death is an act of mercy. That's the key philosophy behind assisted suicide. What's the problem here? How does that relate to the forum?
And you criticise that we don't protect vulnerable people enough. Well, luckily I already addressed that talking point in a previous thread. Being vulnerable doesn't mean you are unable to make rational decisions, see this study:
Mental capacity in psychiatric patients: Systematic review - PubMed
Mental capacity can be reliably assessed. The majority of psychiatric in-patients have capacity, and socio-demographic variables do not have a major impact but clinical ones do.
I have to reject your entire premise based on that scientific study. I think vulnerable people have a right to individual autonomy, so they also have right to make decisions they consider appropiate for the current situation. We both know protecting "vulnerabel people" is a scape goat to go after all people who are struggling, it's a deeply regressive notion, it's an extension of the "think of the children"-fallacy and it comes from a social-conservative interpretion of liberty. I don't even know why you bring up that topic in the first place, it's not a topic specific to this forum, the question if vulnerable people should roam the internet freely without any protections is a conversation we should have when we talk about safety on the internet in general and if it's okay to infringe on the individual autonomy of adults in certain situations. But as I said, I reject your premise and the study I've linked seems to agree with me.
You're also implying that a distressed mental state is only temporary but how do you know? We had member in this forum who experience strong depression and suicidality for years, myself included by the way. What's the point of that talking point? We simply don't know if someone can recover from their struggle. I know a lot of people can't. Are we just gonna throw them under the bus and prolong their life indefinitely even when they scream and yell for relief? Is that a compassionate position?
As I said, you shouldn't pretend to talk for suicidal people. You don't. You have no idea about the subject matter and you should have sticked to music.
How do you even know if people who register in this community don't have the mental capacity to use this forum? It's just an assumption, nothing else. I think people who specifically seek out the content of this forum know what they want. And most people here don't sound like they're in some kind of episode as you suggest. The vast majority of members can describe very well why they are here. If you just spent a little bit of time here instead of being a judgemental dork, you would realize that we have plenty of members who have been struggling for years without relief. And you're essentially sitting on your chair, probably not knowing what it means to suffer, and you scream you want more, you want more? More of what? More suffering? And you think that's the compassionate position?
Chapter five. Instruction threads and the "marketplace"
[responding to "the instructions thread", "the marketplace"]
You're implying we work with Exit. It's a conspiracy theory. The forum doesn't make any profit, period. Your claim that this forum is illegal in most countries is therefore incorrect. Nobody is allowed to sell anything on the forum. If we find out, we take action. Your claim that the forum works as a marketplace is therefore false as well. You shouldn't listen so much to Kelli. She doesn't understand anything and she is simply spreading misinformation to make the forum look twice as bad. But I'll talk about her later.
Not a good look, Tantacrul. The website isn't illegal, that's why we're still here. There have been countless attempts to deplatform us, don't worry. Shout as much as you want.
Chapter six. Bobby C
[responding to "assisting those below 18"]
You claim that we knew who Bobby C was. We don't. It's as simple as that. It's all just really a fallacy. He was a member of your community too, right? So I could ask, hey why didn't this guy feel comfortable enough to open up in your server if you're such a great guy? I could play the same blame game but that doesn't really bring us anywhere. We can all point the fingers all day long and pretend this forum the only factor when it comes to someones decision to make a tragic choice. That's not the case and you know that. I'm just curious, why did you start caring about that guy when it was too late? Do you even care or is this video just an attempt to virtue signal what a great person you are? Your choice.
Chapter seven. Responsible reporting
Right at the very start, (at the 4 minute mark) Tantacrul claims that he wants to follow guidelines on media reporting about suicide and that's why he claims he doesn't want to mention the name of the website. But there is a just a problem. He already liked and followed several people on Twitter who have the name of the website in their bio. So it's unavoidable that his community will find its way to this forum.
View attachment 103733
If someone from his audience wants to dig a little bit deeper into the forum that's mentioned in his video, it's not gonna be very difficult to find it, thanks to him following people who use social media to spread awareness about this community. So let's make one thing clear. He intentionally exposes his audience to this forum, I consider this a little bit hypocritical. Just to make clear who acts responsible in this situation. And here is the thing, based on the screenshots you've included in your video, people will find this forum. What do you think happened every time when a news outlet covered the existence of this forum? It increased our member count.
It was a big mistake to talk about this forum because as I'm writing this thread, just a few hours after you published your video, we already had thousands of guests. The registration queue spiked, depressed people from your community want to join our forum. I'm asking you right now, given you think this is a very bad place: can you live with the guilt, when your audience makes accounts in this forum, a place that's apparently so bad, it needs political legislation to be taken down?
View attachment 103740
"Everyone's got their priority I suppose."
Your goal to follow media guidelines already backfired. And if you really think your video is gonna change anything, after the NYT already covered us on their front page, you're mistaken. I can defend my position, this community and the existence of this forum with a clear conscience. I've done this repeatedly in the past. And you know why I did that? Because I believe in something. I believe in individual autonomy and I believe in compassionate treatment of struggling people, so much, that I dedicate a large junk of my life for that cause. I don't spend a lot of time taking down what other people have built, I spent my time maintaining this community because I believe it's a good thing. And what are you doing? You're making a video concern trolling about this forum but I can assure you, if you read the messages I've read of people who were bedridden, haunted with so much physical pain they couldn't even leave their bed anymore, you'd think twice about posting such a video, throwing these people under the bus. No, if you have talked to these people, you would become an activist for compassionate treatment of these people and that includes the right to die. Because, here is the deal, for some people, the only relief from pain is death. That's why in my country we legalized assisted suicide to the fullest extend. The right to die is a neglected topic, almost every single country outlawed assisted suicide but there is a need for it, and that's why this forum has legitimacy and that's why people seek to participate in this forum. It's all about neglected needs. I live in one of the few countries that legalized assisted suicide. You don't. You don't want the forum to exist? Then get to work and make sure the people that write desperate messages to me don't have to use this forum to find peace in their last moments of their life.
Chapter eight. Who are the opponents of Sanctioned Suicide?
[responding to "taking action"]
A lot of your information is based on claims from people you call "grieving family members". The spearhead of these grieving parents is Kelli. She leads FixThe26 and is the most vocal opponent of this forum. I have thought about this for a long time but given that these people still successfully pretend to be victims, I have to break my silence about the behavior of these people. FixThe26 and the woman who is behind that organisation has a history of harassing, slandering, stalking, mocking and threatening members of our community. When she doxed Mahakali, a well-known member here, posting a picture of her on Twitter, it enraged the entire community. Let's take a look at her actions.
View attachment 103744
View attachment 103743
I have censored the image. Kelli didn't censor it. It was an attempt to silence a critic. Someone who has been a member in the forum. I talked to Mahakali and she confirmed that this instance here greatly contributed to her suffering. This is enough to push someone over the edge. She died one month later.
View attachment 103741
Here she encouraged physical violence on the past site owner, saying he should get publicly executed. Lynch mob. This is a woman that's highly unstable and she has every reason to spread misinformation and outright lies about this community. I know you didn't know that, Tantacrul. But maybe you should have done your research. You think I made it up? Just recently her account twitter.com/fixthe26 got suspended, finally.
View attachment 103745
She engaged in so much targeted harassement and abuse. There are more victims. And all the other family members you included in your video, I'm not gonna name them to protect their identity, have engaged in similiar behavior. Someone celebrated when a member of our community committed suicide after months of abuse and bullying she directed towards that member. They love to play with the identity, leak names. They play the intimidation games really well. Jeremy, an ex-member who has done an interview for Fixthe26, has stalked and harassed a trans member of our community. The list is long. But this thread isn't about these people, I don't play these games. This thread is about your inability to do proper research and take everything they say for granted to craft a narrative that's dangerous to say the least.
But here is the deal. These people aren't victims. They didn't take their own life. They're predators. And it's important to know that not one single "grieving parent" so far has condemned what Kelli has done under that username, the opposite is the case. They all engage in the same kind of harassement towards members of this community. Kelli has already created a new account, twitter.com/SanctionedStop. She is actively cirumcumventing her Twitter ban. So once again, these people weaponized grief. They have spread so many lies about this community and when I took leadership of this community, they did the same to me.
And look. I'm not gonna tell you what to think. I'm a free thinker, not a cultist as you claim. You can make up your own mind. But you should ask yourself, why are the most vocal opponents of this forum predators who harass and stalk individuals like that?
Read this thread if you want to know more about these people and their shady behavior.
Last but not least, these screenshot of me supposedly attacking these people doesn't display anything I have written. As I said, these people have every reason to spread misinformation. Every time someone takes time to criticise them on Twitter, they claim it's me. As if I don't have better things to do than create account after account after account. And if you knew what else they think to know about me, you would know that they don't know anything about me. They're not gonna like that, but that's the truth.
Chapter nine. Online safety bill
[responding to "taking action"]
I already wrote a thread about this and if you value freedom of speech and privacy, you shouldn't support it.
Chapter ten. The mental health system
[responding to "Please seek help. You are not alone."]
Last but not least you finally address the flaws in our system. I'm impressed. Your video takes 46 minutes to watch and you dedicate a few seconds when the video is about to end about the mental health system. Did you address coercision as a common practice? Human rights violations? No. You just claim there are a few problems and that's it, for example that many of us can't talk about being suicidal because we get shamed. But do you even understand the scope of the problem? It's not just about shaming people, which is one of the reasons people would rather come to this forum to discuss deeply personal issues, it's about coercision on a systemic level. Human rights violations. You can get locked up if you tell your doctor that you're suicidal. Talking about your suicidality is a game with fire, I have played it before and you can burn yourself really badly.
So when you claim that this forum or the community has cult-like behavior, referring to members of this community spreading negative sentiments towards mental health institutions or their parents, there is a fucking reason. First of all, I never did any of that, okay. I'm not aware that we are discouraging people from talking to important people in their lives about their problems. But we also need to look at the circumstances of most members in this community. I just recently launched a poll, asking members if their parents contributed to their suffering because my parents certainly played their role when it comes to my struggles. And according to that poll, around 75%(!) of all respondents said their parents contributed in some way to their struggles. So wouldn't it only be a natural theme of this community that members distrust their parents in some way? You don't think there is a very personal reason why so many of us are anti-natalists? And most importantly, many of us dealt with traumatic experiencs around involuntary hospitalisation, then again, wouldn't it be only natural to have concerns around that, especially when they neglect our individual autonomy and our bodily integrity, which are very fundamental concepts of any civilisation? I had close friends of mine describe very horrible and traumatic experiences, which happened as a result of involuntary hospitalisation, some even said they would rather die(!) then ever go back. Maybe you're simply arguing from a position of ignorance, Tantacrul. And maybe you said all of these things about this community because you don't really care about the well being of suicidal people, about the horrible human rights violations we have to endure in these institutions when we open up. Maybe that's the reason why all of that was so easy for you to say but you forget that the people you blame are the same people you claim to care so much about. Odd, isn't it. Again, if people in this community have a negative opinion of their family members or of their doctors, there is certainly a reason for that.
And about mental health, here is a tweet from someone who has recently committed suicide. She was a suicide prevention activist.
Maybe, the problem with mental health isn't just that you get shamed a little bit if you open up, you donk. Look here.
'Toxic culture' of abuse at mental health hospital revealed by BBC secret filming
BBC Panorama goes undercover and finds patients being humiliated, verbally abused and bullied by staff.www.bbc.co.uk
Maybe that gives you a hint? Come on.
And look, I also want to get one point across. No amount of therapy fixes physical or mental pain, political discrimination and financial problems. There are some problems you can't fix with the mental health system because we live in a society that doesn't really care about struggling people. You want some examples from a trans woman?
Oklahoma Could Force Trans People Under 26 Years Old To Detransition Medically
A new bill has been filed in Oklahoma that would ban gender affirming care under age 26. Republican states are moving towards banning transition entirely.UK government blocks Scotland's new gender recognition law | CNN
The UK government has blocked a new law intended to allow trans people in Scotland to change their legal gender without a medical diagnosis -- a controversial move that has added fuel to the already highly emotional debate over Scottish independence.
So you're essentially defending that system with that video and blaming us for speaking out. You're a part of the problem. I live in a country with a high rate of involuntary hospitalisation and it's not cool. You really need to be careful with your words if you value your freedom, especially when you're suicidal and talking to a doctor.
And let's make some things clear, before I end my response to your poorly researched video. You ended your video on this note:
"Every step closer can connect someone to life and the help they want, sometimes those steps are big but sometimes, all it takes is a smile"
That's literally how you decided to end that video, your most meaningful video ever - with an empty platitude. Do you think people in this community who are in so much pain that they literally want to end their lives want your smile? It just proves all over again that you have no idea about the suffering that's happening in this community. You're blind and you'll never be able to understand. Do you think that was a smart way to end the video? It wasn't. You're the perfect example of everything that's wrong with this society. You just showed us every problem with suicide, the way we handle it both as a societal problem but also as a human right. And it shows me you don't care.
My compassion for people doesn't end with suicide prevention. Suicide prevention without addressing systemic issues that causes suidiality in the first place is meaningless. There are so many problems in this world, repeating the suicide hotline every time you talk about suicide is merely a bandaid but it doesn't fix anything. I want more people to live happy and decent lives but those who want a way out, should have a way out. 99% of the world outlawed assisted suicide and you point the finger to that one forum that that breaks the stigma around the right to die?
I'm done with my response. I think I made my case. And I think I was very clear about my opinion. It took a lot of time to write that. Thanks for reading.
Here's my question, and this goes for everyone, would you recommend this site to a loved one ? If someone you deeply care about tell about their will to end themselves, would you be like "Oh it's okay, it's your freedom, btw here's some way to ctb, you're so brave" would you?
CrypticFawn
New Member
- May 15, 2023
- 3
MeltingBrain
Mage
- May 29, 2023
- 569
Your point seems to be -"If you can't recommend something to a loved one, that something must be bad " . This is not always true. In the case of serious health disease, some believe in fighting it while going down while others would like a peaceful exit. Both options are very compelling so the choice should be completely left up to the sufferer of the disease as to which path he chooses .
I see you got banned-good but I'll answer it for any other pro-lifers reading. No I wouldn't feel right about recommending anyone to come to this site, it's something people find all by themselves, hopefully only during their darkest times (not out of sheer curiosity from some dumb video) which is as it should be. It's a shame a site like this even needs to exist, but suicide is not something that can be openly spoken about otherwise. I tried it on another site and any discussion veering anywhere near the "S" word and you get your comment deleted and offered a bunch of helplines-they don't want to listen to your issues, they don't want to show you any understanding or empathy, they want to fob you off with helplines and for you to shut up. If people want that type of site where everything gets censored there are plenty about-all of the rest are like that and easier to find than this site. This place is just strangers on a forum sharing their experiences, speaking very openly, and it makes people feel less alone.
Family and friends should do all they can to help someone not to CTB, listen to them, advise therapy or seeing their doctor, tell them to wait a few months and see how they feel then, whatever it is-they know the person better than we do obviously, and are best placed to offer help. Sadly it still might not be enough, in the end that decision lies with the suicidal person. I think if we were to take into account what the pro-lifers say about how this site has any hand in anyone CTB I think it's only fair to say there is as much chance this site has helped people to NOT CTB. There is no way to know if a person would've still CTB without this site and no way to know if a person hasn't CTB because of being talked out of it thanks to this site. I just think no one on here can talk someone into or out of something as personal as suicide. It's just a forum with many different people struggling with many different things, helping each other feel less alone.
You know, Tantacrul is a lot like someone I knew. I had a friend kill herself because she just couldn't take life anymore, but the man that could have stopped her let it happen because she wouldn't sleep with him. Now think of Tantacrul, a young musician he knew dies and somehow he catches wind of that? He barely knew this kid allegedly. His relationship with this kid was always kinda sussy. Like, the kid was only a pawn. I think at any point Tantacrul himself could have reached out to this kid, but he refused to, likely for money. For the clicks on the video he could make about this site. I think Tantacrul should be held criminally liable, he could have stopped it, but hey, the fucking pervert sick disgusting piece of shit I knew of is STILL walking around a free man with his enabler wife. Fuck this world. Tantacrul is an example of WHY people WANT TO DIE
dreaming_of_pearl
I miss you I love you I’m sorry
- Jun 10, 2023
- 54
If anything tantacurl or whatever his name is, is kind of like promoting the website in his efforts to demonize it, like I found this site through him and I was like finally a way out from this hell it took me all of 2 seconds to figure out my way to here because of how much of the site he showed it was so easy to find the site,
PinkyStat
It’s killing me
- Jun 4, 2023
- 143
I mean, even though i still want to ctb you are right, it feels so much better when you are sorrounded by people with similar feelings and problems as you… this forum didnt really saved my life, but it has made it more confortable in the last week that i spent here ^^
Elysion
Member
- Jun 12, 2023
- 63
All human beings have rights, from the right to the type of clothing to the type of religion and... But the main, most important right of a human being is his decision to live, life is cruel, and no one can blame nature for bringing a child into this black world, so how can they blame the death of that child who chose voluntarily? ! . Anyone who opposes the right to commit suicide is actually trying to attract attention or is an idiot. But it doesn't matter, they can talk about this forum as much as they want, even unfairly. But they don't know that with every move, whether it is for the benefit of the association or against the association, the reputation of this association will only increase. Acceptance of homosexuals was impossible at one time in history, but now it is possible, the day will come when acceptance of the right to suicide will be possible for the world.
Children do not need groups or channels to commit suicide. If something leads them to suicide in the first idea, life alone is painful, without other people they can commit suicide.
Children do not need groups or channels to commit suicide. If something leads them to suicide in the first idea, life alone is painful, without other people they can commit suicide.
Touhou
2hu
- Mar 9, 2023
- 331
His video's so terrible that even Kiwifarmers're dunking on him for it LOL
Chika
Dead
- Jun 17, 2023
- 10
I came here because of his video a lot of people have, if he really thinks this place is bad he should have done a better job hiding it
delusionalgirl
I have my ticket. Awaiting my journey
- Jun 17, 2023
- 194
This is explains something I saw on ask red. It was what's the worst site. And this was in the last week. Someone mention saying it was a cult. I just came back on here but was on a couple years ago and I knew damn well it wasn't one.
As for the person that mention would you recommend to a loved one? In fact I have. Had a friend going thru a rough time. I explain what the site was and told her you can talk openly and find support.
As for the person that mention would you recommend to a loved one? In fact I have. Had a friend going thru a rough time. I explain what the site was and told her you can talk openly and find support.
flyingrabbitt
Member
- Jun 28, 2023
- 45
Psychology is my special interest and I spent a good chunk of time researching what cults actually behave like so I feel the need to use 'Steven Hassan's BITE Model of Authoritarian Control' to compare both sides of this, especially seeing as I discovered this site from Tantacrul. I am also a cult survivor so this is coming from the perspective of someone who has been through most things listed in the BITE model.
I am using this website as a source for this and will use SS to refer to this forum and AS (anti suicide) to refer to Tantacrul and their group. I have not spent much time in AS circles so my analysis on them is not 100% accurate.
Behaviour Control
From my understanding neither group uses behaviour control, no one is forced to do anything they aren't choosing to do themselves, especially considering the examples given on the website no side is using these.
Information Control
I'm going to start with SS which is very pro spreading of information including how to CTB but that goes back to the first point where no one is being forced to do these things, it is of their own free will. There is also no 'leadership' that we have to answer to on this forum, obviously there is moderators but from what I've seen everyone is treated pretty equally.
On the contrary AS seem to heavily push the narrative that CTB is always bad, that it shouldn't be an option for a whole list of reasons. I don't know whether they have leadership or not but I'm leaning towards no however the general vibes of the community tend to be very selective with information they share in regards to CTB and this forum, I don't think it's quite to cult level but I do feel like there is some level of information control going on.
Thought Control
I haven't seen much of this in SS aside from black and white thinking which is less SS forcing it onto people and more a side effect of mental illness, I've seen countless people with different opinions and I myself hold opinions fairly different than a good chunk of people here. I've never seen someone be 'punished' for questioning how the site is run and infact I've seen education and questions be encouraged.
As for AS, I believe they heavily rely on thought control paired with emotional control which I will cover in a minute but they are very in the "us vs them" mentality seen in cults and see beliefs different from theirs (in this case people being pro CTB) as inherently evil and dangerous. AS spreads this like wildfire and seems to be against any kind of discussion on this where the opposing view could be seen as a good thing, they're very against hearing the opposing side of things.
Emotional Control
SS doesn't use emotional control, infact I've found this group to be very open to whatever views someone may have because this form is a place of acceptance for people from all walks of life rather than a place of hatred.
AS uses this a lot, you see this with parents being told that their children have or will CTB because of this website, they're fearmongering. Of course some people will CTB because of the information on this forum but people need to take a step back and think why did they CTB? Especially if parents were present it assumes they were not safe people for the person who CTB. It is very reminiscent of the cult I was in where you had to bring your children in order to 'save' them from whatever evil lurked out there, which is the same premise here but taking away the right to die from said children no matter how old they are.
In conclusion I don't think either group is exactly a cult however AS follows a lot more cult behaviour than SS does which is definitely a red flag.
I am using this website as a source for this and will use SS to refer to this forum and AS (anti suicide) to refer to Tantacrul and their group. I have not spent much time in AS circles so my analysis on them is not 100% accurate.
Behaviour Control
From my understanding neither group uses behaviour control, no one is forced to do anything they aren't choosing to do themselves, especially considering the examples given on the website no side is using these.
Information Control
I'm going to start with SS which is very pro spreading of information including how to CTB but that goes back to the first point where no one is being forced to do these things, it is of their own free will. There is also no 'leadership' that we have to answer to on this forum, obviously there is moderators but from what I've seen everyone is treated pretty equally.
On the contrary AS seem to heavily push the narrative that CTB is always bad, that it shouldn't be an option for a whole list of reasons. I don't know whether they have leadership or not but I'm leaning towards no however the general vibes of the community tend to be very selective with information they share in regards to CTB and this forum, I don't think it's quite to cult level but I do feel like there is some level of information control going on.
Thought Control
I haven't seen much of this in SS aside from black and white thinking which is less SS forcing it onto people and more a side effect of mental illness, I've seen countless people with different opinions and I myself hold opinions fairly different than a good chunk of people here. I've never seen someone be 'punished' for questioning how the site is run and infact I've seen education and questions be encouraged.
As for AS, I believe they heavily rely on thought control paired with emotional control which I will cover in a minute but they are very in the "us vs them" mentality seen in cults and see beliefs different from theirs (in this case people being pro CTB) as inherently evil and dangerous. AS spreads this like wildfire and seems to be against any kind of discussion on this where the opposing view could be seen as a good thing, they're very against hearing the opposing side of things.
Emotional Control
SS doesn't use emotional control, infact I've found this group to be very open to whatever views someone may have because this form is a place of acceptance for people from all walks of life rather than a place of hatred.
AS uses this a lot, you see this with parents being told that their children have or will CTB because of this website, they're fearmongering. Of course some people will CTB because of the information on this forum but people need to take a step back and think why did they CTB? Especially if parents were present it assumes they were not safe people for the person who CTB. It is very reminiscent of the cult I was in where you had to bring your children in order to 'save' them from whatever evil lurked out there, which is the same premise here but taking away the right to die from said children no matter how old they are.
In conclusion I don't think either group is exactly a cult however AS follows a lot more cult behaviour than SS does which is definitely a red flag.
awman
drowning
- Jun 28, 2023
- 4
The youtuber Tantacrul, also known in this forum as @Jonels, finally recorded a video about this community, in which he slandered and insulted our members and I've decided to respond to him directly. He has been obsessed with this forum for the last few weeks, creating alt-account after alt-account to force his narrative on other people. A little reminder on how all of this started, back in November 2022.
These are some snippets of his posts before I kicked him from this community. I made pretty clear in that thread that he is allowed to use this forum and express criticism towards this forum as long as it's fair and in good faith. It's obvious from the posts above that this wasn't the case so I gave him the boot. As a result of that, he announced that he would make a video about this forum. It's pretty obvious that all of this is done solely because he wants to cause damage to this community because we didn't give him a platform for his immature behavior. And look, Tantacrul, you might not mention me and this forum by name but I'll mention you by name.
Chapter one. The real philosophy of this website
[responding to "How does the site work?", "The philosophy of this site"]
What's the purpose of this forum? Obviously Tantacrul isn't really interested in portraying this forum in a fair light, the video he made obviously doesn't have the intention to start a discussion about the moral implications of this forum with fair arguments. It's a direct response of us banning him for repeatedly(!) violating the rules back in November when he insulted the community and claimed we are reponsible for the death of another person. It's supposed to be another hitpiece, similiar to the one in December 2021 from the NYT.
I already explained this here but the purpose of this forum is to provide a safe space for suicidal or struggling people in general to discuss deeply personal topics without censorship. That's the most straight-forward answer. I would add that this forum also provides a space to talk about these subjects without a forced narrative and that's one of the reasons why this place is so appealing to so many people. If you talk about your problems with anyone out there, it always comes with restrictions. If you say a little bit too loud that you are suicidal, you have to expect severe backlash and in the worst case, involuntary hospitalisation. I'll get to this point later, this is gonna be a very detailed response to the accusations directed at this community.
Another aspects what makes this forum so appealing to so many people is the fact that you can talk about your suicidality in this place without the risk of intervention. Instead, you receive honest compassion and empathy because we're all mind-liked people. We all suffer together in this place and we're all respecting each others boundaries. And that's important because I didn't experience that out there, I simply didn't. And we talk to each other with an even ground, which isn't the case when you talk to a psychiatrist for example, there is a very different power dynamic in such conversations than here. And this aspect of the forum, which has caused so many people to stay, hasn't even been mentioned once. This forum saves lives, without a doubt.
And there are people in this community that have been suffering for years for various reasons and unlike Tantacruls narrative, this community doesn't just consist of young people who are impulsive and eager to engage in harmful behavior without much thought. Tantacrul doesn't understand that nobody becomes suicidal in a vacuum. We all have valid reasons to be in this forum. He pretends that people are lured into this community for no reason and then convinced to kill themselves just for fun. That's obviously not true, I don't even know where to start when I want to debunk this claim. But reading through the registration queue and the posts in this forum from new members makes very clear to me that most members who come to this place have a long experience with mental or physical health problems. And if someone comes to this place, they specifically seek out a forum with our philosophy, for a reason. Let's make one thing clear, people register in this place voluntarily because they have needs they want to address in this forum. And that's okay.
Here are some scientific articles digging into the nature of this forum and you will realize rather quickly that scientists have called this community pro-choice repeatedly in the past. These articles provide a very nuanced insight into this community and I appreciated the work that's been done.
Now, let's dig into the next claim.
You claim that this forum consists of 4 philosophies around the nine minute mark.
1. Nihilism.
2. Anti-natalism
3. Pro-mortalism
4. Libertarianism
While the first two philosophies are actually quite common in this forum, pro-mortalism and libertarianism isn't. There might be individual members who have libertarian or efilist beliefs but to say that these are dominant philosophies as you claim is absurd. There is a reason why nihilism and anti-natalism are common themes in this forum, it's because depressed people tend to have a more negative outlook on life compared to the rest of the population. It's quite natural actually and it's not really a surprise that this community tends to be more nihilistic compared to the average population. And anti-natalism, which is also more common in this community, is a belief that's shared in this forum because many of us didn't have the best parents and sometimes, our own parents contributed to our suffering. But I'll go into details about this later.
I don't know why you claim pro-mortalism is a dominant philosophy in this forum, it's not. Again, there might be individual posters who hold a pro-mortalist belief but that's in no way representative for the entire community. And that's really important because you use this framing over the course of the entire video to portray this forum as some kind of cult that pushes people into suicide because we supposedly gain satisfaction from doing so. That's a lie. Most members here recognise that ending your life is a serious act and shouldn't be done without severe introspection. But we regularly applaud and celebrate when members announce that they're leaving the forum because they have recovered. That's a good thing. Shouldn't that be obvious? Regarding libertarianism, you seem to confuse a fundamental basic human right like self-determination for libertarianism and I don't know why how you came to that conclusion. For me, it tells me a lot about your ignorance around this topic. The right to die is a human right and the ECHR has agreed with me on that topic repeatedly.
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European Center for Law and Justice
View attachment 103737
The International Journal Of Human Rights
And that's the most shared value in this forum: self-determination, you being the only decision maker when it comes to matters that affect your welfare. And for many of us in this forum, we consider the right to die a human right. This has nothing to do with libertarianism as you claim but everything with individual autonomy, those are very fundamental values of every civilisation. And you live in the UK, right? So I wonder, why don't you value the right to die as a fundamental right? Do you disagree that people should have the right to make deeply personal decisions about their own life without interference of the state? That would be a regressive idea. Are you regressive, Tantacrul? Do you want to go back to times where women and men didn't have the legal right to make their own decisions concerning their welfare? I don't really think so.
But your attempt to slander this forum as some kind of obscure cult already failed. I believe in the right to die as a human right. I think every person who consider their life unworthy of living for various reasons, and the most common reason is chronic mental and physical pain, should have a right to exercise their right to die without interference of the state. And this sentiment has just recently been reinforced by the Federal Consitutional Court of Germany, making clear in their court ruling that the right to die isn't "restriced to serious or terminal diseases or specific phases of life or of a disease". It would contradict the fact that the right to die "is rooted in human dignity" and therefore does "NOT require any additional explanation or justification". The court also made clear that the right to die "also includes the right to seek and use voluntarily offered help to do so and that's by far the most progressive court ruling to this day, validating the right to die as a basic human right.
It seems to me that your entire video is based on a misunderstanding of the right to die. You consider the right to die a controversial topic and people fighting for ways to exercise said rights must be malicious actors according to your video but that's not really the case if you do some research about the ethical consensus in various countries regarding suicide and assisted suicide too. That's very important. You claim that sharing ressources and information regarding ways to exercise our right to die is bad and evil, I say it's an act of compassion. Let's end this here and come back to this topic later.
Chapter two. What are my beliefs
[responding to "who is responsible for setting up this site?"]
You dedicate a lot of your video talking about my beliefs without actually knowing why I'm a member in this forum.
I'm a trans woman who has suffered their entire life. My childhood was ruined by neglectful parents and I've had a terrible upbringing. As a result of that I experienced suicidal ideation very early in my life. Being trans teached me that we live in a society that doesn't really give a fuck about marginalised people. That's why I have become a member in this forum. During the years I have realized that the right to die is a deeply neglected right, in the majority of the world it's surpressed and you're not really allowed to talk openly about suicide. If you want to know more about the stigma around mental health, just talk to a few members of this forum and ask them why they are active in this forum.
I'm secular. I don't believe in any religion. And I consider the right to die when you're suffering so much that you can't take it any longer a compassionate and empathic position. I think people like you who fear monger about this forum and take valid criticism to the extreme are not acting in good faith. You claim this forum has anything to do with inceldom. If you did some research, you would know that inceldom isn't really a common theme in this forum. You will find so many different groups with different backgrounds in this community, we're actually quite diverse and people are here for very different reason. We're also very heterogenic when it comes to ideology. You claim we're a cult and that we all believe in the same thing. That's not really true. We disagree on so many topics. Some members are left-wing, some are right-wing, some are socially conservative and some are more liberal. I had so many political discussions with people who had a different opinion than me and that's okay. We don't really have any common goals in this forum. The only thing that truly connects us is the need for a place to talk about deeply personal topics without censorship and a forced narrative and the idea that we should have a right to make deeply decisions without intervention of a third party. And that's it.
Here is the deal. I've been suicidal my entire life. I'm not just an admin, I'm a member myself. I'm a human. And I'm trans. I know how it feels to be trapped in this place. I know how it feels to suffer. I know how it feels when nobody seems to understand you. I know how it feels when you can't open up to anybody because you fear judgemental reactions and involuntary hospitalisation when you just say the wrong words. And I know the dire need to find relief from pain. Do you, Jonels? You, who claims to speak for all the suicidal people out there, do you represent their interests and their needs? Really?
Chapter three. Are we a cult?
[responding to "Don't seek help", "A note about cults", "Malicious actors"]
You claim that this community is a cult, giving us three indicators that this is the case.
First, a cult has a "highly peculiar" alternative ideology, which runs contrary to mainstream - you claim that applies to us.
Second, a cult has "ridicilous hostility" towards mental health professionals and the idea of treatment.
Third, a cult is notorious for cutting people off from their support networks.
I mean, honestly, these are quite vague and I haven't seen a clear definition of a cult yet that would match the purpose of this forum. You could apply the first point to any community that whose ideals aren't mainstream yet and especially with the combination of the second or even the third point, I see a common theme. You know, I'm a trans woman. And there is a long history of the media misrepresenting who we are. And you're doing a similiar thing right now. I mean, let's look at some headlines, right?
How long can the cult of transgenderism last?
The Cult of Transgenderism
The Cult of Transgenderism:My Brother's Crisis of Identity in an America Gone MadBy "Lisa" Last year, my brotherThe Trans Cult
A few years ago, three things happened in the course of a single week in my life. First, a friend told me about a letter her daughter, then 11, had received from her closest summer-camp friend. The girl had some big news: She was now a boy. Then, another mother told me she and her […]
There are prominent vocal right-wingers who use exactly the same points to go after trans people. They call us the LGBT cult, they claim we groom children.
Libs of TikTok Goes on Tucker to Call LGBTQ Community a ‘Cult’ with ‘Evil People’ Who Want To Groom Kids
Fox News host Tucker Carlson sat down with the formerly anonymous creator Chaya Raichik, who declared the "LGBTQ community" has become a "cult."The Problem With How We Talk About Grooming
Allegations against Broadway star Alice Ripley, as well as a recent story about Millie Bobby Brown, sparked discussion about "grooming."Tucker Carlson and Libs of TikTok Spread Transphobia for the Holidays
Libs of TikTok creator Chaya Raichik called the LGBTQ community a "cult" and pushed more baseless grooming rumors on 'Tucker Carlson Today.'
It's exactly the same thing. If you apply some bad faith, you can make any movement look bad with the right framing. And that's you're doing right now. Congrats Tantacrul, you learned from the best. Take very vague descriptions of a cult and apply them without any nuance and consideration for context to the entire community and ooops, we look like the bad guys.
What do you know about me? Nothing. But you have no problem smearing me as a bad-faith actor, as someone who simply acts on bad intentions. I mean, that's a common theme, you know. I belong to many subcultures that have endured the same slander. I'm transgender, that's why I immediately knew where your narrative is coming from. Do you see how the media hounds us trans people? The way you talk about this community of struggling people comes from the same place of judgement. We're victims, not perpetrators. You're just a different color of judgement. This time you're not lashing out against trans people who supposedly groom vulnerable people, you're lashing out against suicidal people who supposedly do the same. Suicidal people who appreciate this forum, people who voluntarily seeked this community as a source of support. And don't they have a right to have a safe space without the forced narratives, the same bullshit you're pulling right now on suicidal people? Oh no, "we need to save them", right? We need to get the nanny state to take down this community, right? That's what you're doing right now but you're not speaking for anyone. You're only speaking for yourself and your language is bigotry.
Next, you you said this community is an echo chamber of negative thoughts and nihilistic view points and you claim to prove that with how many examples? 5 posts? 6 posts? Are these representative examples of the entire community? You mentioned "Cake123" who has several thousand posts but why are they representative of the entire community? You're cherry picking members who suit your narrative, we have members in this forum with even more posts who disagree with that particular member. I just want to make something clear. We have 1'700'000 posts in this forum and we have over 26'000 members and you pick a few anecdotal(!) cases, intentionally leaving out important context to paint a narrative I've already debunked repeatedly before, for example when I responded to the NYT article. So if you think debunking your video is gonna be difficult, you're mistaken, Tantarcul. As I just said, we have several thousand members who came to this place because it gave them something. Do you speak for them? You claim this forum has 10 million monthly visitors on average, doesn't that send a message to you, Tantacrul? Do you really speak for people who are struggling or are you just merely pretending to be talking for them? Maybe that's the problem. Let's make one thing clear, you are talking about suicidal people and not(!) for them. You haven't really engaged with this community in good faith and maybe that's the reason why people rather come to us? Who would want to seek support from someone who slanders 25k suicidal people, people who are literally suffering so much, as a cult of predators? That's so telling. It's always the same with you people, it's only judgemental toxic slander. Every single time and you always think it's so brilliant...
There are several scientific studies researching this forum and none of them describe this community as pro-mortalist. We might have individual members, vocal members who subscribe to an efilist worldview but then again, this is a forum for adults so shouldn't they have a right to speak their mind? That's the point of this forum, right? Being able to speak your mind in a safe space, right? That's absolutely the contrary of a cult. And all the active members who clearly disagree with me on various subjects prove that point.
Next, you take one case of someone who has been convicted and sentenced for doing things to other people outside of this forum and imply that we are in some way responsible for this. Again, predators exist in every community.
MySpace, Facebook attract online predators
If you don't know what it means to “facebook” someone, then odds are you don't have any young people in your house who do it all the time. It means to look for details about a person on any of the booming Internet sites where people post details about themselves. It's hugely popular, but police...Playstation Pedophiles « Filtering Facts
They're on Facebook, Youtube, Twitter, they are on Twitch, they have been on MySpace - pretending that this has anything to do with this forum just proves you're ignorant about the nature of the internet. Yeah, this forum does attract a few bad apples due to the nature of this forum but keep in mind, you have have one(!) conviction for a forum with 25k members that has existed for over 5 years and the conviction itself has nothing to do with the purpose of this community. This guy deserved to get punished for violating other people for sexual pleasure. I have no problem saying that. But are predators overrepresented in this community or are you just framing this forum in a particularly bad way with one singular case of a crime? Again, this community has 25k members. How representative is your little anecdotal case then? Not very representative at all, am I right?
Yeah, that's what I thought. Of course a community like ours that has vulnerable people (which doesn't translate to "no individual autonomy" btw) attracts bad apples. If we have reasonable doubts about someones intention, we reserve our right to boot them from the community. But you can't reads minds, that's why you're assuming I'm a bad-faith actor, and I can't read minds, that's why I don't know the intentions of people who come to this community. It's as simple as that. Of course I could ban anyone I consider dubious but who wants to be in a community where I single-handedly rule who is allowed to be here and who isnt?
Chapter four. Protecting the vulnerable
[responding to "protecting the vulnerable"]
You bring up the fact that people need to agree that they are of sound mind when they use the website. You quote a professor who said "People... take their own lives when they can see no end to their pain, when they feel trapped by it and that there is no way. Like physical pain, there is only so much mental pain that we can withstand and, when we reach our limit, something has to give. Sadly, for too many people, it is life that gives".
What an absurd quote. First of all, it implies that any kind of pain is temporary and that relief from pain is never an option if it results in someone's decision to exercise their right to die. I think your quote doesn't actually delegitimize the forum, it legitimizes it, making clear that some pain is so difficult to endure that providing relief in the form of death is an act of mercy. That's the key philosophy behind assisted suicide. What's the problem here? How does that relate to the forum?
And you criticise that we don't protect vulnerable people enough. Well, luckily I already addressed that talking point in a previous thread. Being vulnerable doesn't mean you are unable to make rational decisions, see this study:
Mental capacity in psychiatric patients: Systematic review - PubMed
Mental capacity can be reliably assessed. The majority of psychiatric in-patients have capacity, and socio-demographic variables do not have a major impact but clinical ones do.
I have to reject your entire premise based on that scientific study. I think vulnerable people have a right to individual autonomy, so they also have right to make decisions they consider appropiate for the current situation. We both know protecting "vulnerabel people" is a scape goat to go after all people who are struggling, it's a deeply regressive notion, it's an extension of the "think of the children"-fallacy and it comes from a social-conservative interpretion of liberty. I don't even know why you bring up that topic in the first place, it's not a topic specific to this forum, the question if vulnerable people should roam the internet freely without any protections is a conversation we should have when we talk about safety on the internet in general and if it's okay to infringe on the individual autonomy of adults in certain situations. But as I said, I reject your premise and the study I've linked seems to agree with me.
You're also implying that a distressed mental state is only temporary but how do you know? We had member in this forum who experience strong depression and suicidality for years, myself included by the way. What's the point of that talking point? We simply don't know if someone can recover from their struggle. I know a lot of people can't. Are we just gonna throw them under the bus and prolong their life indefinitely even when they scream and yell for relief? Is that a compassionate position?
As I said, you shouldn't pretend to talk for suicidal people. You don't. You have no idea about the subject matter and you should have sticked to music.
How do you even know if people who register in this community don't have the mental capacity to use this forum? It's just an assumption, nothing else. I think people who specifically seek out the content of this forum know what they want. And most people here don't sound like they're in some kind of episode as you suggest. The vast majority of members can describe very well why they are here. If you just spent a little bit of time here instead of being a judgemental dork, you would realize that we have plenty of members who have been struggling for years without relief. And you're essentially sitting on your chair, probably not knowing what it means to suffer, and you scream you want more, you want more? More of what? More suffering? And you think that's the compassionate position?
Chapter five. Instruction threads and the "marketplace"
[responding to "the instructions thread", "the marketplace"]
You're implying we work with Exit. It's a conspiracy theory. The forum doesn't make any profit, period. Your claim that this forum is illegal in most countries is therefore incorrect. Nobody is allowed to sell anything on the forum. If we find out, we take action. Your claim that the forum works as a marketplace is therefore false as well. You shouldn't listen so much to Kelli. She doesn't understand anything and she is simply spreading misinformation to make the forum look twice as bad. But I'll talk about her later.
Not a good look, Tantacrul. The website isn't illegal, that's why we're still here. There have been countless attempts to deplatform us, don't worry. Shout as much as you want.
Chapter six. Bobby C
[responding to "assisting those below 18"]
You claim that we knew who Bobby C was. We don't. It's as simple as that. It's all just really a fallacy. He was a member of your community too, right? So I could ask, hey why didn't this guy feel comfortable enough to open up in your server if you're such a great guy? I could play the same blame game but that doesn't really bring us anywhere. We can all point the fingers all day long and pretend this forum the only factor when it comes to someones decision to make a tragic choice. That's not the case and you know that. I'm just curious, why did you start caring about that guy when it was too late? Do you even care or is this video just an attempt to virtue signal what a great person you are? Your choice.
Chapter seven. Responsible reporting
Right at the very start, (at the 4 minute mark) Tantacrul claims that he wants to follow guidelines on media reporting about suicide and that's why he claims he doesn't want to mention the name of the website. But there is a just a problem. He already liked and followed several people on Twitter who have the name of the website in their bio. So it's unavoidable that his community will find its way to this forum.
View attachment 103733
If someone from his audience wants to dig a little bit deeper into the forum that's mentioned in his video, it's not gonna be very difficult to find it, thanks to him following people who use social media to spread awareness about this community. So let's make one thing clear. He intentionally exposes his audience to this forum, I consider this a little bit hypocritical. Just to make clear who acts responsible in this situation. And here is the thing, based on the screenshots you've included in your video, people will find this forum. What do you think happened every time when a news outlet covered the existence of this forum? It increased our member count.
It was a big mistake to talk about this forum because as I'm writing this thread, just a few hours after you published your video, we already had thousands of guests. The registration queue spiked, depressed people from your community want to join our forum. I'm asking you right now, given you think this is a very bad place: can you live with the guilt, when your audience makes accounts in this forum, a place that's apparently so bad, it needs political legislation to be taken down?
View attachment 103740
"Everyone's got their priority I suppose."
Your goal to follow media guidelines already backfired. And if you really think your video is gonna change anything, after the NYT already covered us on their front page, you're mistaken. I can defend my position, this community and the existence of this forum with a clear conscience. I've done this repeatedly in the past. And you know why I did that? Because I believe in something. I believe in individual autonomy and I believe in compassionate treatment of struggling people, so much, that I dedicate a large junk of my life for that cause. I don't spend a lot of time taking down what other people have built, I spent my time maintaining this community because I believe it's a good thing. And what are you doing? You're making a video concern trolling about this forum but I can assure you, if you read the messages I've read of people who were bedridden, haunted with so much physical pain they couldn't even leave their bed anymore, you'd think twice about posting such a video, throwing these people under the bus. No, if you have talked to these people, you would become an activist for compassionate treatment of these people and that includes the right to die. Because, here is the deal, for some people, the only relief from pain is death. That's why in my country we legalized assisted suicide to the fullest extend. The right to die is a neglected topic, almost every single country outlawed assisted suicide but there is a need for it, and that's why this forum has legitimacy and that's why people seek to participate in this forum. It's all about neglected needs. I live in one of the few countries that legalized assisted suicide. You don't. You don't want the forum to exist? Then get to work and make sure the people that write desperate messages to me don't have to use this forum to find peace in their last moments of their life.
Chapter eight. Who are the opponents of Sanctioned Suicide?
[responding to "taking action"]
A lot of your information is based on claims from people you call "grieving family members". The spearhead of these grieving parents is Kelli. She leads FixThe26 and is the most vocal opponent of this forum. I have thought about this for a long time but given that these people still successfully pretend to be victims, I have to break my silence about the behavior of these people. FixThe26 and the woman who is behind that organisation has a history of harassing, slandering, stalking, mocking and threatening members of our community. When she doxed Mahakali, a well-known member here, posting a picture of her on Twitter, it enraged the entire community. Let's take a look at her actions.
View attachment 103744
View attachment 103743
I have censored the image. Kelli didn't censor it. It was an attempt to silence a critic. Someone who has been a member in the forum. I talked to Mahakali and she confirmed that this instance here greatly contributed to her suffering. This is enough to push someone over the edge. She died one month later.
View attachment 103741
Here she encouraged physical violence on the past site owner, saying he should get publicly executed. Lynch mob. This is a woman that's highly unstable and she has every reason to spread misinformation and outright lies about this community. I know you didn't know that, Tantacrul. But maybe you should have done your research. You think I made it up? Just recently her account twitter.com/fixthe26 got suspended, finally.
View attachment 103745
She engaged in so much targeted harassement and abuse. There are more victims. And all the other family members you included in your video, I'm not gonna name them to protect their identity, have engaged in similiar behavior. Someone celebrated when a member of our community committed suicide after months of abuse and bullying she directed towards that member. They love to play with the identity, leak names. They play the intimidation games really well. Jeremy, an ex-member who has done an interview for Fixthe26, has stalked and harassed a trans member of our community. The list is long. But this thread isn't about these people, I don't play these games. This thread is about your inability to do proper research and take everything they say for granted to craft a narrative that's dangerous to say the least.
But here is the deal. These people aren't victims. They didn't take their own life. They're predators. And it's important to know that not one single "grieving parent" so far has condemned what Kelli has done under that username, the opposite is the case. They all engage in the same kind of harassement towards members of this community. Kelli has already created a new account, twitter.com/SanctionedStop. She is actively cirumcumventing her Twitter ban. So once again, these people weaponized grief. They have spread so many lies about this community and when I took leadership of this community, they did the same to me.
And look. I'm not gonna tell you what to think. I'm a free thinker, not a cultist as you claim. You can make up your own mind. But you should ask yourself, why are the most vocal opponents of this forum predators who harass and stalk individuals like that?
Read this thread if you want to know more about these people and their shady behavior.
Last but not least, these screenshot of me supposedly attacking these people doesn't display anything I have written. As I said, these people have every reason to spread misinformation. Every time someone takes time to criticise them on Twitter, they claim it's me. As if I don't have better things to do than create account after account after account. And if you knew what else they think to know about me, you would know that they don't know anything about me. They're not gonna like that, but that's the truth.
Chapter nine. Online safety bill
[responding to "taking action"]
I already wrote a thread about this and if you value freedom of speech and privacy, you shouldn't support it.
Chapter ten. The mental health system
[responding to "Please seek help. You are not alone."]
Last but not least you finally address the flaws in our system. I'm impressed. Your video takes 46 minutes to watch and you dedicate a few seconds when the video is about to end about the mental health system. Did you address coercision as a common practice? Human rights violations? No. You just claim there are a few problems and that's it, for example that many of us can't talk about being suicidal because we get shamed. But do you even understand the scope of the problem? It's not just about shaming people, which is one of the reasons people would rather come to this forum to discuss deeply personal issues, it's about coercision on a systemic level. Human rights violations. You can get locked up if you tell your doctor that you're suicidal. Talking about your suicidality is a game with fire, I have played it before and you can burn yourself really badly.
So when you claim that this forum or the community has cult-like behavior, referring to members of this community spreading negative sentiments towards mental health institutions or their parents, there is a fucking reason. First of all, I never did any of that, okay. I'm not aware that we are discouraging people from talking to important people in their lives about their problems. But we also need to look at the circumstances of most members in this community. I just recently launched a poll, asking members if their parents contributed to their suffering because my parents certainly played their role when it comes to my struggles. And according to that poll, around 75%(!) of all respondents said their parents contributed in some way to their struggles. So wouldn't it only be a natural theme of this community that members distrust their parents in some way? You don't think there is a very personal reason why so many of us are anti-natalists? And most importantly, many of us dealt with traumatic experiencs around involuntary hospitalisation, then again, wouldn't it be only natural to have concerns around that, especially when they neglect our individual autonomy and our bodily integrity, which are very fundamental concepts of any civilisation? I had close friends of mine describe very horrible and traumatic experiences, which happened as a result of involuntary hospitalisation, some even said they would rather die(!) then ever go back. Maybe you're simply arguing from a position of ignorance, Tantacrul. And maybe you said all of these things about this community because you don't really care about the well being of suicidal people, about the horrible human rights violations we have to endure in these institutions when we open up. Maybe that's the reason why all of that was so easy for you to say but you forget that the people you blame are the same people you claim to care so much about. Odd, isn't it. Again, if people in this community have a negative opinion of their family members or of their doctors, there is certainly a reason for that.
And about mental health, here is a tweet from someone who has recently committed suicide. She was a suicide prevention activist.
Maybe, the problem with mental health isn't just that you get shamed a little bit if you open up, you donk. Look here.
'Toxic culture' of abuse at mental health hospital revealed by BBC secret filming
BBC Panorama goes undercover and finds patients being humiliated, verbally abused and bullied by staff.www.bbc.co.uk
Maybe that gives you a hint? Come on.
And look, I also want to get one point across. No amount of therapy fixes physical or mental pain, political discrimination and financial problems. There are some problems you can't fix with the mental health system because we live in a society that doesn't really care about struggling people. You want some examples from a trans woman?
Oklahoma Could Force Trans People Under 26 Years Old To Detransition Medically
A new bill has been filed in Oklahoma that would ban gender affirming care under age 26. Republican states are moving towards banning transition entirely.UK government blocks Scotland's new gender recognition law | CNN
The UK government has blocked a new law intended to allow trans people in Scotland to change their legal gender without a medical diagnosis -- a controversial move that has added fuel to the already highly emotional debate over Scottish independence.
So you're essentially defending that system with that video and blaming us for speaking out. You're a part of the problem. I live in a country with a high rate of involuntary hospitalisation and it's not cool. You really need to be careful with your words if you value your freedom, especially when you're suicidal and talking to a doctor.
And let's make some things clear, before I end my response to your poorly researched video. You ended your video on this note:
"Every step closer can connect someone to life and the help they want, sometimes those steps are big but sometimes, all it takes is a smile"
That's literally how you decided to end that video, your most meaningful video ever - with an empty platitude. Do you think people in this community who are in so much pain that they literally want to end their lives want your smile? It just proves all over again that you have no idea about the suffering that's happening in this community. You're blind and you'll never be able to understand. Do you think that was a smart way to end the video? It wasn't. You're the perfect example of everything that's wrong with this society. You just showed us every problem with suicide, the way we handle it both as a societal problem but also as a human right. And it shows me you don't care.
My compassion for people doesn't end with suicide prevention. Suicide prevention without addressing systemic issues that causes suidiality in the first place is meaningless. There are so many problems in this world, repeating the suicide hotline every time you talk about suicide is merely a bandaid but it doesn't fix anything. I want more people to live happy and decent lives but those who want a way out, should have a way out. 99% of the world outlawed assisted suicide and you point the finger to that one forum that that breaks the stigma around the right to die?
I'm done with my response. I think I made my case. And I think I was very clear about my opinion. It took a lot of time to write that. Thanks for reading.
Funny enough, i actually found this forum from his video. i was at first curious to see if what he was saying was true but it at all isn't. this is a place to express your thoughts freely without the consequences that you would get otherwise. but he honestly lead a LOT of people here with his video trying to "spread awareness" of this website. i literally just googled SS website and i found this. it's kinda funny lol
Shananaginns
BeautifullyBroken
- Jan 11, 2019
- 26
The youtuber Tantacrul, also known in this forum as @Jonels, finally recorded a video about this community, in which he slandered and insulted our members and I've decided to respond to him directly. He has been obsessed with this forum for the last few weeks, creating alt-account after alt-account to force his narrative on other people. A little reminder on how all of this started, back in November 2022.
These are some snippets of his posts before I kicked him from this community. I made pretty clear in that thread that he is allowed to use this forum and express criticism towards this forum as long as it's fair and in good faith. It's obvious from the posts above that this wasn't the case so I gave him the boot. As a result of that, he announced that he would make a video about this forum. It's pretty obvious that all of this is done solely because he wants to cause damage to this community because we didn't give him a platform for his immature behavior. And look, Tantacrul, you might not mention me and this forum by name but I'll mention you by name.
Chapter one. The real philosophy of this website
[responding to "How does the site work?", "The philosophy of this site"]
What's the purpose of this forum? Obviously Tantacrul isn't really interested in portraying this forum in a fair light, the video he made obviously doesn't have the intention to start a discussion about the moral implications of this forum with fair arguments. It's a direct response of us banning him for repeatedly(!) violating the rules back in November when he insulted the community and claimed we are reponsible for the death of another person. It's supposed to be another hitpiece, similiar to the one in December 2021 from the NYT.
I already explained this here but the purpose of this forum is to provide a safe space for suicidal or struggling people in general to discuss deeply personal topics without censorship. That's the most straight-forward answer. I would add that this forum also provides a space to talk about these subjects without a forced narrative and that's one of the reasons why this place is so appealing to so many people. If you talk about your problems with anyone out there, it always comes with restrictions. If you say a little bit too loud that you are suicidal, you have to expect severe backlash and in the worst case, involuntary hospitalisation. I'll get to this point later, this is gonna be a very detailed response to the accusations directed at this community.
Another aspects what makes this forum so appealing to so many people is the fact that you can talk about your suicidality in this place without the risk of intervention. Instead, you receive honest compassion and empathy because we're all mind-liked people. We all suffer together in this place and we're all respecting each others boundaries. And that's important because I didn't experience that out there, I simply didn't. And we talk to each other with an even ground, which isn't the case when you talk to a psychiatrist for example, there is a very different power dynamic in such conversations than here. And this aspect of the forum, which has caused so many people to stay, hasn't even been mentioned once. This forum saves lives, without a doubt.
And there are people in this community that have been suffering for years for various reasons and unlike Tantacruls narrative, this community doesn't just consist of young people who are impulsive and eager to engage in harmful behavior without much thought. Tantacrul doesn't understand that nobody becomes suicidal in a vacuum. We all have valid reasons to be in this forum. He pretends that people are lured into this community for no reason and then convinced to kill themselves just for fun. That's obviously not true, I don't even know where to start when I want to debunk this claim. But reading through the registration queue and the posts in this forum from new members makes very clear to me that most members who come to this place have a long experience with mental or physical health problems. And if someone comes to this place, they specifically seek out a forum with our philosophy, for a reason. Let's make one thing clear, people register in this place voluntarily because they have needs they want to address in this forum. And that's okay.
Here are some scientific articles digging into the nature of this forum and you will realize rather quickly that scientists have called this community pro-choice repeatedly in the past. These articles provide a very nuanced insight into this community and I appreciated the work that's been done.
Now, let's dig into the next claim.
You claim that this forum consists of 4 philosophies around the nine minute mark.
1. Nihilism.
2. Anti-natalism
3. Pro-mortalism
4. Libertarianism
While the first two philosophies are actually quite common in this forum, pro-mortalism and libertarianism isn't. There might be individual members who have libertarian or efilist beliefs but to say that these are dominant philosophies as you claim is absurd. There is a reason why nihilism and anti-natalism are common themes in this forum, it's because depressed people tend to have a more negative outlook on life compared to the rest of the population. It's quite natural actually and it's not really a surprise that this community tends to be more nihilistic compared to the average population. And anti-natalism, which is also more common in this community, is a belief that's shared in this forum because many of us didn't have the best parents and sometimes, our own parents contributed to our suffering. But I'll go into details about this later.
I don't know why you claim pro-mortalism is a dominant philosophy in this forum, it's not. Again, there might be individual posters who hold a pro-mortalist belief but that's in no way representative for the entire community. And that's really important because you use this framing over the course of the entire video to portray this forum as some kind of cult that pushes people into suicide because we supposedly gain satisfaction from doing so. That's a lie. Most members here recognise that ending your life is a serious act and shouldn't be done without severe introspection. But we regularly applaud and celebrate when members announce that they're leaving the forum because they have recovered. That's a good thing. Shouldn't that be obvious? Regarding libertarianism, you seem to confuse a fundamental basic human right like self-determination for libertarianism and I don't know why how you came to that conclusion. For me, it tells me a lot about your ignorance around this topic. The right to die is a human right and the ECHR has agreed with me on that topic repeatedly.
View attachment 103738
European Center for Law and Justice
View attachment 103737
The International Journal Of Human Rights
And that's the most shared value in this forum: self-determination, you being the only decision maker when it comes to matters that affect your welfare. And for many of us in this forum, we consider the right to die a human right. This has nothing to do with libertarianism as you claim but everything with individual autonomy, those are very fundamental values of every civilisation. And you live in the UK, right? So I wonder, why don't you value the right to die as a fundamental right? Do you disagree that people should have the right to make deeply personal decisions about their own life without interference of the state? That would be a regressive idea. Are you regressive, Tantacrul? Do you want to go back to times where women and men didn't have the legal right to make their own decisions concerning their welfare? I don't really think so.
But your attempt to slander this forum as some kind of obscure cult already failed. I believe in the right to die as a human right. I think every person who consider their life unworthy of living for various reasons, and the most common reason is chronic mental and physical pain, should have a right to exercise their right to die without interference of the state. And this sentiment has just recently been reinforced by the Federal Consitutional Court of Germany, making clear in their court ruling that the right to die isn't "restriced to serious or terminal diseases or specific phases of life or of a disease". It would contradict the fact that the right to die "is rooted in human dignity" and therefore does "NOT require any additional explanation or justification". The court also made clear that the right to die "also includes the right to seek and use voluntarily offered help to do so and that's by far the most progressive court ruling to this day, validating the right to die as a basic human right.
It seems to me that your entire video is based on a misunderstanding of the right to die. You consider the right to die a controversial topic and people fighting for ways to exercise said rights must be malicious actors according to your video but that's not really the case if you do some research about the ethical consensus in various countries regarding suicide and assisted suicide too. That's very important. You claim that sharing ressources and information regarding ways to exercise our right to die is bad and evil, I say it's an act of compassion. Let's end this here and come back to this topic later.
Chapter two. What are my beliefs
[responding to "who is responsible for setting up this site?"]
You dedicate a lot of your video talking about my beliefs without actually knowing why I'm a member in this forum.
I'm a trans woman who has suffered their entire life. My childhood was ruined by neglectful parents and I've had a terrible upbringing. As a result of that I experienced suicidal ideation very early in my life. Being trans teached me that we live in a society that doesn't really give a fuck about marginalised people. That's why I have become a member in this forum. During the years I have realized that the right to die is a deeply neglected right, in the majority of the world it's surpressed and you're not really allowed to talk openly about suicide. If you want to know more about the stigma around mental health, just talk to a few members of this forum and ask them why they are active in this forum.
I'm secular. I don't believe in any religion. And I consider the right to die when you're suffering so much that you can't take it any longer a compassionate and empathic position. I think people like you who fear monger about this forum and take valid criticism to the extreme are not acting in good faith. You claim this forum has anything to do with inceldom. If you did some research, you would know that inceldom isn't really a common theme in this forum. You will find so many different groups with different backgrounds in this community, we're actually quite diverse and people are here for very different reason. We're also very heterogenic when it comes to ideology. You claim we're a cult and that we all believe in the same thing. That's not really true. We disagree on so many topics. Some members are left-wing, some are right-wing, some are socially conservative and some are more liberal. I had so many political discussions with people who had a different opinion than me and that's okay. We don't really have any common goals in this forum. The only thing that truly connects us is the need for a place to talk about deeply personal topics without censorship and a forced narrative and the idea that we should have a right to make deeply decisions without intervention of a third party. And that's it.
Here is the deal. I've been suicidal my entire life. I'm not just an admin, I'm a member myself. I'm a human. And I'm trans. I know how it feels to be trapped in this place. I know how it feels to suffer. I know how it feels when nobody seems to understand you. I know how it feels when you can't open up to anybody because you fear judgemental reactions and involuntary hospitalisation when you just say the wrong words. And I know the dire need to find relief from pain. Do you, Jonels? You, who claims to speak for all the suicidal people out there, do you represent their interests and their needs? Really?
Chapter three. Are we a cult?
[responding to "Don't seek help", "A note about cults", "Malicious actors"]
You claim that this community is a cult, giving us three indicators that this is the case.
First, a cult has a "highly peculiar" alternative ideology, which runs contrary to mainstream - you claim that applies to us.
Second, a cult has "ridicilous hostility" towards mental health professionals and the idea of treatment.
Third, a cult is notorious for cutting people off from their support networks.
I mean, honestly, these are quite vague and I haven't seen a clear definition of a cult yet that would match the purpose of this forum. You could apply the first point to any community that whose ideals aren't mainstream yet and especially with the combination of the second or even the third point, I see a common theme. You know, I'm a trans woman. And there is a long history of the media misrepresenting who we are. And you're doing a similiar thing right now. I mean, let's look at some headlines, right?
How long can the cult of transgenderism last?
The Cult of Transgenderism
The Cult of Transgenderism:My Brother's Crisis of Identity in an America Gone MadBy "Lisa" Last year, my brotherThe Trans Cult
A few years ago, three things happened in the course of a single week in my life. First, a friend told me about a letter her daughter, then 11, had received from her closest summer-camp friend. The girl had some big news: She was now a boy. Then, another mother told me she and her […]
There are prominent vocal right-wingers who use exactly the same points to go after trans people. They call us the LGBT cult, they claim we groom children.
Libs of TikTok Goes on Tucker to Call LGBTQ Community a ‘Cult’ with ‘Evil People’ Who Want To Groom Kids
Fox News host Tucker Carlson sat down with the formerly anonymous creator Chaya Raichik, who declared the "LGBTQ community" has become a "cult."The Problem With How We Talk About Grooming
Allegations against Broadway star Alice Ripley, as well as a recent story about Millie Bobby Brown, sparked discussion about "grooming."Tucker Carlson and Libs of TikTok Spread Transphobia for the Holidays
Libs of TikTok creator Chaya Raichik called the LGBTQ community a "cult" and pushed more baseless grooming rumors on 'Tucker Carlson Today.'
It's exactly the same thing. If you apply some bad faith, you can make any movement look bad with the right framing. And that's you're doing right now. Congrats Tantacrul, you learned from the best. Take very vague descriptions of a cult and apply them without any nuance and consideration for context to the entire community and ooops, we look like the bad guys.
What do you know about me? Nothing. But you have no problem smearing me as a bad-faith actor, as someone who simply acts on bad intentions. I mean, that's a common theme, you know. I belong to many subcultures that have endured the same slander. I'm transgender, that's why I immediately knew where your narrative is coming from. Do you see how the media hounds us trans people? The way you talk about this community of struggling people comes from the same place of judgement. We're victims, not perpetrators. You're just a different color of judgement. This time you're not lashing out against trans people who supposedly groom vulnerable people, you're lashing out against suicidal people who supposedly do the same. Suicidal people who appreciate this forum, people who voluntarily seeked this community as a source of support. And don't they have a right to have a safe space without the forced narratives, the same bullshit you're pulling right now on suicidal people? Oh no, "we need to save them", right? We need to get the nanny state to take down this community, right? That's what you're doing right now but you're not speaking for anyone. You're only speaking for yourself and your language is bigotry.
Next, you you said this community is an echo chamber of negative thoughts and nihilistic view points and you claim to prove that with how many examples? 5 posts? 6 posts? Are these representative examples of the entire community? You mentioned "Cake123" who has several thousand posts but why are they representative of the entire community? You're cherry picking members who suit your narrative, we have members in this forum with even more posts who disagree with that particular member. I just want to make something clear. We have 1'700'000 posts in this forum and we have over 26'000 members and you pick a few anecdotal(!) cases, intentionally leaving out important context to paint a narrative I've already debunked repeatedly before, for example when I responded to the NYT article. So if you think debunking your video is gonna be difficult, you're mistaken, Tantarcul. As I just said, we have several thousand members who came to this place because it gave them something. Do you speak for them? You claim this forum has 10 million monthly visitors on average, doesn't that send a message to you, Tantacrul? Do you really speak for people who are struggling or are you just merely pretending to be talking for them? Maybe that's the problem. Let's make one thing clear, you are talking about suicidal people and not(!) for them. You haven't really engaged with this community in good faith and maybe that's the reason why people rather come to us? Who would want to seek support from someone who slanders 25k suicidal people, people who are literally suffering so much, as a cult of predators? That's so telling. It's always the same with you people, it's only judgemental toxic slander. Every single time and you always think it's so brilliant...
There are several scientific studies researching this forum and none of them describe this community as pro-mortalist. We might have individual members, vocal members who subscribe to an efilist worldview but then again, this is a forum for adults so shouldn't they have a right to speak their mind? That's the point of this forum, right? Being able to speak your mind in a safe space, right? That's absolutely the contrary of a cult. And all the active members who clearly disagree with me on various subjects prove that point.
Next, you take one case of someone who has been convicted and sentenced for doing things to other people outside of this forum and imply that we are in some way responsible for this. Again, predators exist in every community.
MySpace, Facebook attract online predators
If you don't know what it means to “facebook” someone, then odds are you don't have any young people in your house who do it all the time. It means to look for details about a person on any of the booming Internet sites where people post details about themselves. It's hugely popular, but police...Playstation Pedophiles « Filtering Facts
They're on Facebook, Youtube, Twitter, they are on Twitch, they have been on MySpace - pretending that this has anything to do with this forum just proves you're ignorant about the nature of the internet. Yeah, this forum does attract a few bad apples due to the nature of this forum but keep in mind, you have have one(!) conviction for a forum with 25k members that has existed for over 5 years and the conviction itself has nothing to do with the purpose of this community. This guy deserved to get punished for violating other people for sexual pleasure. I have no problem saying that. But are predators overrepresented in this community or are you just framing this forum in a particularly bad way with one singular case of a crime? Again, this community has 25k members. How representative is your little anecdotal case then? Not very representative at all, am I right?
Yeah, that's what I thought. Of course a community like ours that has vulnerable people (which doesn't translate to "no individual autonomy" btw) attracts bad apples. If we have reasonable doubts about someones intention, we reserve our right to boot them from the community. But you can't reads minds, that's why you're assuming I'm a bad-faith actor, and I can't read minds, that's why I don't know the intentions of people who come to this community. It's as simple as that. Of course I could ban anyone I consider dubious but who wants to be in a community where I single-handedly rule who is allowed to be here and who isnt?
Chapter four. Protecting the vulnerable
[responding to "protecting the vulnerable"]
You bring up the fact that people need to agree that they are of sound mind when they use the website. You quote a professor who said "People... take their own lives when they can see no end to their pain, when they feel trapped by it and that there is no way. Like physical pain, there is only so much mental pain that we can withstand and, when we reach our limit, something has to give. Sadly, for too many people, it is life that gives".
What an absurd quote. First of all, it implies that any kind of pain is temporary and that relief from pain is never an option if it results in someone's decision to exercise their right to die. I think your quote doesn't actually delegitimize the forum, it legitimizes it, making clear that some pain is so difficult to endure that providing relief in the form of death is an act of mercy. That's the key philosophy behind assisted suicide. What's the problem here? How does that relate to the forum?
And you criticise that we don't protect vulnerable people enough. Well, luckily I already addressed that talking point in a previous thread. Being vulnerable doesn't mean you are unable to make rational decisions, see this study:
Mental capacity in psychiatric patients: Systematic review - PubMed
Mental capacity can be reliably assessed. The majority of psychiatric in-patients have capacity, and socio-demographic variables do not have a major impact but clinical ones do.
I have to reject your entire premise based on that scientific study. I think vulnerable people have a right to individual autonomy, so they also have right to make decisions they consider appropiate for the current situation. We both know protecting "vulnerabel people" is a scape goat to go after all people who are struggling, it's a deeply regressive notion, it's an extension of the "think of the children"-fallacy and it comes from a social-conservative interpretion of liberty. I don't even know why you bring up that topic in the first place, it's not a topic specific to this forum, the question if vulnerable people should roam the internet freely without any protections is a conversation we should have when we talk about safety on the internet in general and if it's okay to infringe on the individual autonomy of adults in certain situations. But as I said, I reject your premise and the study I've linked seems to agree with me.
You're also implying that a distressed mental state is only temporary but how do you know? We had member in this forum who experience strong depression and suicidality for years, myself included by the way. What's the point of that talking point? We simply don't know if someone can recover from their struggle. I know a lot of people can't. Are we just gonna throw them under the bus and prolong their life indefinitely even when they scream and yell for relief? Is that a compassionate position?
As I said, you shouldn't pretend to talk for suicidal people. You don't. You have no idea about the subject matter and you should have sticked to music.
How do you even know if people who register in this community don't have the mental capacity to use this forum? It's just an assumption, nothing else. I think people who specifically seek out the content of this forum know what they want. And most people here don't sound like they're in some kind of episode as you suggest. The vast majority of members can describe very well why they are here. If you just spent a little bit of time here instead of being a judgemental dork, you would realize that we have plenty of members who have been struggling for years without relief. And you're essentially sitting on your chair, probably not knowing what it means to suffer, and you scream you want more, you want more? More of what? More suffering? And you think that's the compassionate position?
Chapter five. Instruction threads and the "marketplace"
[responding to "the instructions thread", "the marketplace"]
You're implying we work with Exit. It's a conspiracy theory. The forum doesn't make any profit, period. Your claim that this forum is illegal in most countries is therefore incorrect. Nobody is allowed to sell anything on the forum. If we find out, we take action. Your claim that the forum works as a marketplace is therefore false as well. You shouldn't listen so much to Kelli. She doesn't understand anything and she is simply spreading misinformation to make the forum look twice as bad. But I'll talk about her later.
Not a good look, Tantacrul. The website isn't illegal, that's why we're still here. There have been countless attempts to deplatform us, don't worry. Shout as much as you want.
Chapter six. Bobby C
[responding to "assisting those below 18"]
You claim that we knew who Bobby C was. We don't. It's as simple as that. It's all just really a fallacy. He was a member of your community too, right? So I could ask, hey why didn't this guy feel comfortable enough to open up in your server if you're such a great guy? I could play the same blame game but that doesn't really bring us anywhere. We can all point the fingers all day long and pretend this forum the only factor when it comes to someones decision to make a tragic choice. That's not the case and you know that. I'm just curious, why did you start caring about that guy when it was too late? Do you even care or is this video just an attempt to virtue signal what a great person you are? Your choice.
Chapter seven. Responsible reporting
Right at the very start, (at the 4 minute mark) Tantacrul claims that he wants to follow guidelines on media reporting about suicide and that's why he claims he doesn't want to mention the name of the website. But there is a just a problem. He already liked and followed several people on Twitter who have the name of the website in their bio. So it's unavoidable that his community will find its way to this forum.
View attachment 103733
If someone from his audience wants to dig a little bit deeper into the forum that's mentioned in his video, it's not gonna be very difficult to find it, thanks to him following people who use social media to spread awareness about this community. So let's make one thing clear. He intentionally exposes his audience to this forum, I consider this a little bit hypocritical. Just to make clear who acts responsible in this situation. And here is the thing, based on the screenshots you've included in your video, people will find this forum. What do you think happened every time when a news outlet covered the existence of this forum? It increased our member count.
It was a big mistake to talk about this forum because as I'm writing this thread, just a few hours after you published your video, we already had thousands of guests. The registration queue spiked, depressed people from your community want to join our forum. I'm asking you right now, given you think this is a very bad place: can you live with the guilt, when your audience makes accounts in this forum, a place that's apparently so bad, it needs political legislation to be taken down?
View attachment 103740
"Everyone's got their priority I suppose."
Your goal to follow media guidelines already backfired. And if you really think your video is gonna change anything, after the NYT already covered us on their front page, you're mistaken. I can defend my position, this community and the existence of this forum with a clear conscience. I've done this repeatedly in the past. And you know why I did that? Because I believe in something. I believe in individual autonomy and I believe in compassionate treatment of struggling people, so much, that I dedicate a large junk of my life for that cause. I don't spend a lot of time taking down what other people have built, I spent my time maintaining this community because I believe it's a good thing. And what are you doing? You're making a video concern trolling about this forum but I can assure you, if you read the messages I've read of people who were bedridden, haunted with so much physical pain they couldn't even leave their bed anymore, you'd think twice about posting such a video, throwing these people under the bus. No, if you have talked to these people, you would become an activist for compassionate treatment of these people and that includes the right to die. Because, here is the deal, for some people, the only relief from pain is death. That's why in my country we legalized assisted suicide to the fullest extend. The right to die is a neglected topic, almost every single country outlawed assisted suicide but there is a need for it, and that's why this forum has legitimacy and that's why people seek to participate in this forum. It's all about neglected needs. I live in one of the few countries that legalized assisted suicide. You don't. You don't want the forum to exist? Then get to work and make sure the people that write desperate messages to me don't have to use this forum to find peace in their last moments of their life.
Chapter eight. Who are the opponents of Sanctioned Suicide?
[responding to "taking action"]
A lot of your information is based on claims from people you call "grieving family members". The spearhead of these grieving parents is Kelli. She leads FixThe26 and is the most vocal opponent of this forum. I have thought about this for a long time but given that these people still successfully pretend to be victims, I have to break my silence about the behavior of these people. FixThe26 and the woman who is behind that organisation has a history of harassing, slandering, stalking, mocking and threatening members of our community. When she doxed Mahakali, a well-known member here, posting a picture of her on Twitter, it enraged the entire community. Let's take a look at her actions.
View attachment 103744
View attachment 103743
I have censored the image. Kelli didn't censor it. It was an attempt to silence a critic. Someone who has been a member in the forum. I talked to Mahakali and she confirmed that this instance here greatly contributed to her suffering. This is enough to push someone over the edge. She died one month later.
View attachment 103741
Here she encouraged physical violence on the past site owner, saying he should get publicly executed. Lynch mob. This is a woman that's highly unstable and she has every reason to spread misinformation and outright lies about this community. I know you didn't know that, Tantacrul. But maybe you should have done your research. You think I made it up? Just recently her account twitter.com/fixthe26 got suspended, finally.
View attachment 103745
She engaged in so much targeted harassement and abuse. There are more victims. And all the other family members you included in your video, I'm not gonna name them to protect their identity, have engaged in similiar behavior. Someone celebrated when a member of our community committed suicide after months of abuse and bullying she directed towards that member. They love to play with the identity, leak names. They play the intimidation games really well. Jeremy, an ex-member who has done an interview for Fixthe26, has stalked and harassed a trans member of our community. The list is long. But this thread isn't about these people, I don't play these games. This thread is about your inability to do proper research and take everything they say for granted to craft a narrative that's dangerous to say the least.
But here is the deal. These people aren't victims. They didn't take their own life. They're predators. And it's important to know that not one single "grieving parent" so far has condemned what Kelli has done under that username, the opposite is the case. They all engage in the same kind of harassement towards members of this community. Kelli has already created a new account, twitter.com/SanctionedStop. She is actively cirumcumventing her Twitter ban. So once again, these people weaponized grief. They have spread so many lies about this community and when I took leadership of this community, they did the same to me.
And look. I'm not gonna tell you what to think. I'm a free thinker, not a cultist as you claim. You can make up your own mind. But you should ask yourself, why are the most vocal opponents of this forum predators who harass and stalk individuals like that?
Read this thread if you want to know more about these people and their shady behavior.
Last but not least, these screenshot of me supposedly attacking these people doesn't display anything I have written. As I said, these people have every reason to spread misinformation. Every time someone takes time to criticise them on Twitter, they claim it's me. As if I don't have better things to do than create account after account after account. And if you knew what else they think to know about me, you would know that they don't know anything about me. They're not gonna like that, but that's the truth.
Chapter nine. Online safety bill
[responding to "taking action"]
I already wrote a thread about this and if you value freedom of speech and privacy, you shouldn't support it.
Chapter ten. The mental health system
[responding to "Please seek help. You are not alone."]
Last but not least you finally address the flaws in our system. I'm impressed. Your video takes 46 minutes to watch and you dedicate a few seconds when the video is about to end about the mental health system. Did you address coercision as a common practice? Human rights violations? No. You just claim there are a few problems and that's it, for example that many of us can't talk about being suicidal because we get shamed. But do you even understand the scope of the problem? It's not just about shaming people, which is one of the reasons people would rather come to this forum to discuss deeply personal issues, it's about coercision on a systemic level. Human rights violations. You can get locked up if you tell your doctor that you're suicidal. Talking about your suicidality is a game with fire, I have played it before and you can burn yourself really badly.
So when you claim that this forum or the community has cult-like behavior, referring to members of this community spreading negative sentiments towards mental health institutions or their parents, there is a fucking reason. First of all, I never did any of that, okay. I'm not aware that we are discouraging people from talking to important people in their lives about their problems. But we also need to look at the circumstances of most members in this community. I just recently launched a poll, asking members if their parents contributed to their suffering because my parents certainly played their role when it comes to my struggles. And according to that poll, around 75%(!) of all respondents said their parents contributed in some way to their struggles. So wouldn't it only be a natural theme of this community that members distrust their parents in some way? You don't think there is a very personal reason why so many of us are anti-natalists? And most importantly, many of us dealt with traumatic experiencs around involuntary hospitalisation, then again, wouldn't it be only natural to have concerns around that, especially when they neglect our individual autonomy and our bodily integrity, which are very fundamental concepts of any civilisation? I had close friends of mine describe very horrible and traumatic experiences, which happened as a result of involuntary hospitalisation, some even said they would rather die(!) then ever go back. Maybe you're simply arguing from a position of ignorance, Tantacrul. And maybe you said all of these things about this community because you don't really care about the well being of suicidal people, about the horrible human rights violations we have to endure in these institutions when we open up. Maybe that's the reason why all of that was so easy for you to say but you forget that the people you blame are the same people you claim to care so much about. Odd, isn't it. Again, if people in this community have a negative opinion of their family members or of their doctors, there is certainly a reason for that.
And about mental health, here is a tweet from someone who has recently committed suicide. She was a suicide prevention activist.
Maybe, the problem with mental health isn't just that you get shamed a little bit if you open up, you donk. Look here.
'Toxic culture' of abuse at mental health hospital revealed by BBC secret filming
BBC Panorama goes undercover and finds patients being humiliated, verbally abused and bullied by staff.www.bbc.co.uk
Maybe that gives you a hint? Come on.
And look, I also want to get one point across. No amount of therapy fixes physical or mental pain, political discrimination and financial problems. There are some problems you can't fix with the mental health system because we live in a society that doesn't really care about struggling people. You want some examples from a trans woman?
Oklahoma Could Force Trans People Under 26 Years Old To Detransition Medically
A new bill has been filed in Oklahoma that would ban gender affirming care under age 26. Republican states are moving towards banning transition entirely.UK government blocks Scotland's new gender recognition law | CNN
The UK government has blocked a new law intended to allow trans people in Scotland to change their legal gender without a medical diagnosis -- a controversial move that has added fuel to the already highly emotional debate over Scottish independence.
So you're essentially defending that system with that video and blaming us for speaking out. You're a part of the problem. I live in a country with a high rate of involuntary hospitalisation and it's not cool. You really need to be careful with your words if you value your freedom, especially when you're suicidal and talking to a doctor.
And let's make some things clear, before I end my response to your poorly researched video. You ended your video on this note:
"Every step closer can connect someone to life and the help they want, sometimes those steps are big but sometimes, all it takes is a smile"
That's literally how you decided to end that video, your most meaningful video ever - with an empty platitude. Do you think people in this community who are in so much pain that they literally want to end their lives want your smile? It just proves all over again that you have no idea about the suffering that's happening in this community. You're blind and you'll never be able to understand. Do you think that was a smart way to end the video? It wasn't. You're the perfect example of everything that's wrong with this society. You just showed us every problem with suicide, the way we handle it both as a societal problem but also as a human right. And it shows me you don't care.
My compassion for people doesn't end with suicide prevention. Suicide prevention without addressing systemic issues that causes suidiality in the first place is meaningless. There are so many problems in this world, repeating the suicide hotline every time you talk about suicide is merely a bandaid but it doesn't fix anything. I want more people to live happy and decent lives but those who want a way out, should have a way out. 99% of the world outlawed assisted suicide and you point the finger to that one forum that that breaks the stigma around the right to die?
I'm done with my response. I think I made my case. And I think I was very clear about my opinion. It took a lot of time to write that. Thanks for reading.
I just saw his video and stopped watching after a few minutes. It scares me that they're trying to take this site away. I truly hope that never happens.
Andro_USYD
Artificially happy on medicine
- Jul 1, 2023
- 136
I just think Tantacrul has the opinion of Ur average wealthy, non depressed white guy and has no idea about the suffering and inescapability of life for a lot of us. It's why after watching his video I immediately signed up to this forum. He is probably rich with his software developing company and has never experienced even a hair's breath of depression. + The forum's aim is to bring a community of people feeling the need to potentially CTB together and discuss these issues, it leads to better practices and the right to free speech without judgement.
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