KnightOfEnceladus

KnightOfEnceladus

Lost child in time
May 20, 2019
231
It wouldn't help with the set and setting, that's for sure, but my experience and research tells me no one stays "in Hell" longer than they deserve to, and the one doing the judging is the person themselves. People "find their level" rather quickly, though some needs help.

You're spreading fear where it doesn't belong. This is doing others a disservice.
 
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mea.culpa

mea.culpa

Member
Jun 4, 2019
6
The perfect hell is the one we are living in... So worst case scenario, going to hell is just being reincarnated.
Was looking to see if someone else had replied as I would've. Bam, found it. Well put, brother.
 
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GeorgeJL

GeorgeJL

Enlightened
Mar 7, 2019
1,621
It wouldn't help with the set and setting, that's for sure, but my experience and research tells me no one stays "in Hell" longer than they deserve to, and the one doing the judging is the person themselves. People "find their level" rather quickly, though some needs help.

You're spreading fear where it doesn't belong. This is doing others a disservice.
I agree that hell isn't forever. And that it's peoples conscious that judges themselves. And I disagree that I am spreading fear where it doesn't belong.

Look I think the devil is in the details. I think we both have unique perspectives to offer. The fact of the matter is that reality is much more nuanced than what either of us are capable of understanding. No one has a monopoly on reality and truth, neither the Buddha, or Christ, or any of the other masters.

I can listen to Howard Storm give a sermon one day and the next listen to Richard Dawkins the next, then listen to Deepak Chopra the next. I think you and I think differently and that is just fine.

I think I would be over stepping my boundaries if I was saying hell is forever and homosexuals and atheists will burn forever etc.
 
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Rukia

Rukia

Enlightened
Jun 3, 2019
1,078
Did any of you guys read the Gloria Polo's testimony? It has a passage about suicide...and it scares me... :'(
 
GeorgeJL

GeorgeJL

Enlightened
Mar 7, 2019
1,621
Did any of you guys read the Gloria Polo's testimony? It has a passage about suicide...and it scares me... :'(
That is in another language. If it's the typical Christian narrative I don't buy it.
 
KnightOfEnceladus

KnightOfEnceladus

Lost child in time
May 20, 2019
231
@Rukia (and @GeorgeJL): the overarching message my research and experience has distilled out for me is that we judge ourselves. There is no actual "other" being doing the judging. What we see, experience, and suffer is a result of our minds filtering experiences they've never had and can't directly comprehend through the lenses of our cultural upbringing and shared meme-plexes.

I read one NDE account by a Christian minister who went to Burma to spread Christianity, and that included being chased around by "Yamatoots," or servants of Lord Yama. Hindus unexposed to other religionsoften see Lord Yama or another mythological official and get told "your name is not up to be called yet, go back." Christians see the image they have of Jesus, wildly incorrect as it is, all long hair and pale skin and blue eyes, rather than looking like the kind of person they'd suspect of being a suicide bomber if they met him face to face.

People see what their culture dictates, but it's all an illusionary layer over the underlying reality. Knowing this, and knowing that we judge ourselves with complete, 100% inescapable brutal honesty for the things we've done and failed to do, is perhaps the most powerful and important knowledge it is possible to have.
 
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GeorgeJL

GeorgeJL

Enlightened
Mar 7, 2019
1,621
@Rukia (and @GeorgeJL): the overarching message my research and experience has distilled out for me is that we judge ourselves. There is no actual "other" being doing the judging. What we see, experience, and suffer is a result of our minds filtering experiences they've never had and can't directly comprehend through the lenses of our cultural upbringing and shared meme-plexes.

I read one NDE account by a Christian minister who went to Burma to spread Christianity, and that included being chased around by "Yamatoots," or servants of Lord Yama. Hindus unexposed to other religionsoften see Lord Yama or another mythological official and get told "your name is not up to be called yet, go back." Christians see the image they have of Jesus, wildly incorrect as it is, all long hair and pale skin and blue eyes, rather than looking like the kind of person they'd suspect of being a suicide bomber if they met him face to face.

People see what their culture dictates, but it's all an illusionary layer over the underlying reality. Knowing this, and knowing that we judge ourselves with complete, 100% inescapable brutal honesty for the things we've done and failed to do, is perhaps the most powerful and important knowledge it is possible to have.
I agree with this, but at the same time I believe a violent death would cause ones negative karma/emotions to come to the surface forcing them to deal with the totality of their bad karma all at once making it almost impossible to deal with all at once. I mean getting splattered on the front of a train for instance is going to force some deep shit to come out all at once perhaps overwhelming them to a hellish place. The fact is neither of us knows the answer to this question. It's all just theory and speculation. And I realize that. But I sure hell am not going to play Russian roulette with my dignity and I don't think others should as well. Which is why I talk about this.
 
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stupidmansuit

stupidmansuit

Member
May 16, 2019
24
Idk, but if god exist they can suck my fucking dick.
 
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First loss

First loss

Specialist
Jan 28, 2019
393
In Islam and Christianity it is a sin to kill yourself and grants you immediate access to hell. But, according to Islamic scholars, if you are mentally ill and insane so you can't comprehend what you are doing, and you commit suicide, the statement above does not include you.
 
KnightOfEnceladus

KnightOfEnceladus

Lost child in time
May 20, 2019
231
Islam and Christianity are false religions, seeing as they sprang from the merger of Zoroastrianism and Judaism, which are also false religions. I wouldn't worry about the entire Abrahamic family at all; if anything, they are responsible for most of the suffering on this planet over the last 3000+ years!
 
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idecidewhen

idecidewhen

Member
Feb 15, 2019
18
Interesting point. I have two thoughts. One, if you a believer in karma, many say that killing yourself will result in you having to restore that wrong in the next life. But what if your current pain is you making up or paying for the sins of a previous life. It's possible that you may actually find yourself in the clear having restored your wrongs and you are in the clear.

Second, if you believe the Christian view of thou shalt not kill, the commandments, say "not kill"....no exceptions, not just humans. So if you are a meat eater, or killed a bug you have already killed, so you are screwed anyway.
 
Crystal Labeija

Crystal Labeija

Experienced
Jun 3, 2019
216
Here is how I see it: if there is a god out there, why would he care? It seems to me that in most religions, suicide is a grave sin that leads to some sort of eternal damnation. Yet I find it hard that all knowing and all powerful entity that is also supposed to be merciful would be so arrogant as to punish a simpleton with a lifetime of suffering for acting on their pain. Seriously, god must be a sadist if he insists on you being alive when you're in such pain. There is no mercy in keeping those in pain alive. I just find it difficult that an entity with god's might and knowledge would be as petty as a human being.
 
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N

NOT

Experienced
Apr 16, 2019
250
Yes but there comes in the idea of original sin.
Adam and Eve comitted grave sin against god, and therefore lost all their rights as citizens of heavenly garden.
Something like nowdays when you attemp suicide you get locked in psych ward losing all your constitutional and human rights.
You are terrorizing entire belief system unknowingly with you CBT.
 
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Soul

Soul

gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha
Apr 12, 2019
4,704
Islam and Christianity are false religions, seeing as they sprang from the merger of Zoroastrianism and Judaism, which are also false religions. I wouldn't worry abouut the entire Abrahamic family at all; if anything, they are responsible for most of the suffering on this planet over the last 3000+ years!

All right all right: What's wrong with Judaism now!? Jews invented the day off - that's got to be worth something! And a lot of the ethical principles are quite all right.

A religion built on a story of emancipating slaves instead of glorifying the ruling class, and telling us to make this world a righter place instead of expecting a reward for suffering obediently, should count for something. But you're right of course that all three of the Abrahamic religions have gotten direly fucked up and misused. What is it about them that makes them so susceptible to that?
 
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KnightOfEnceladus

KnightOfEnceladus

Lost child in time
May 20, 2019
231
@Soul: Judaism itself started as a trauma reaction. The (ancestors of) the Hebrews were a branch of Canaanites/Sumerians (cf. the Bible's reference to "Ur of the Chaldees" and Abram being one). You can think of it as a type of Bronze-Age liberation theology; there is the same element of turning around a horrible situation into something like "well actually God chose us because we're just better despite what we suffered!" That kind of thing inevitably leads to genocide once the oppressed group frees itself from its shackles; human nature being what it is, slaves very often don't desire freedom but slave ownership.

As it is, we now know the Exodus never happened, so the foundational myths of Judaism are either false (Exodus) or cribbed from earlier cultures (the Noah's Ark story is a retelling of the Atrahasis/Ut-Napishtim myth, Sargon was found in the bulrushes before Moses, etc).

Yahweh himself existed as one of the pantheon at Ugarit, and there are stone tablets which read "To Yahweh and His Asherah" in abundance. The words that usually appear as "groves" or "pillars" are actually "Asherah" in the singular or plural. Remember, to Bronze-Age people, gods were local foci of divine power, who each had home bases and spheres of influence; we even have on record, in 2 Kings if I remember right, Yahweh's Israelite army losing to the soldiers of the pagan god Chemosh, after the pagan king powered Chemosh up with human sacrifice no less!

Judaism took a long time, arguably all the way until the Babylonian Exile, to become truly monotheistic; before this it was henotheistic, where other gods were acknowledged, but Yahweh explicitly stated to be the strongest and Israel's patron/only/chief God. Post-Exilic Judaism is basically Zoroastrianism rewritten anyway, as Judaism had no idea of eschatology or reward/punishment in the afterlife before then.

All the ingredients for a toxic, perpetually-genocidal religious mix are thus gathered together: born in pain and rage, in an era of widespread brutality, conquered over and over again, delusional in the extreme each time and seeing it as some kind of mark of divine favor, and then syncretized with another religion that in no uncertain terms preached The End of Times and a hideous doom for all evildoers--define "evildoer" as convenient--and you can see what a mess we have on our hands.

It only got worse when the Romans destroyed the Second Temple around 70AD. Whatever Jesus believed in, he was no Christian as we would understand the term, and indeed even the idea of three coequal parts of the Trinity, the Athanasian view, was chosen for politically-motivated reasons at Nicaea in 325AD on Constantine's orders. He was a devout Jew, for example enjoining in Matthew 5:17-20 that all 613 mitzvot of the Mosaic law be upheld, and firmly believed that "there be some standing here who shall not taste of death before the Son of Man be come in glory." In other words, he was on fire with the idea that the end of the world was coming Real Soon Now (TM). Well, some 1990 years later...

I'm not even going to get into Islam. It's lunacy, plain and simple. Mohammed was a pedophile, a racist, a warmonger, and unfortunately also a master propagandist.
 
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Crystal Labeija

Crystal Labeija

Experienced
Jun 3, 2019
216
Yes but there comes in the idea of original sin.
Adam and Eve comitted grave sin against god, and therefore lost all their rights as citizens of heavenly garden.
Something like nowdays when you attemp suicide you get locked in psych ward losing all your constitutional and human rights.
You are terrorizing entire belief system unknowingly with you CBT.

I'm not sure if you were replying to me or someone else, but I'll assume that you are.

I think it's wrong to assume that the Abrahamic god is the real god, so the story of Adam and Eve is irrelevant. I was looking at things from a secular logic perspective. Secular logic acknowledges that we don't know certain things, but we ascertain knowledge from our surrounding and capabilities as human beings. The Abrahamic faiths are basically spoon-fed nonsenses with a lot of intellectual insecurity. Why is it that the god of the Abrahamic faith is so afraid of having his legitimacy be questioned? It's because he is false.
 
N

NOT

Experienced
Apr 16, 2019
250
[/QUOTE]

"there be some standing here who shall not taste of death before the Son of Man be come in glory."

[/QUOTE]

I always thought this means that certain spirit he he was reffering to was doomed for reincarnation over and over again until messiah comes back and establishes kingdom of heaven on earth.
But I was insane obviously.
 
Soul

Soul

gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha
Apr 12, 2019
4,704
@Soul: Judaism itself started as a trauma reaction. The (ancestors of) the Hebrews were a branch of Canaanites/Sumerians (cf. the Bible's reference to "Ur of the Chaldees" and Abram being one). You can think of it as a type of Bronze-Age liberation theology; there is the same element of turning around a horrible situation into something like "well actually God chose us because we're just better despite what we suffered!" That kind of thing inevitably leads to genocide once the oppressed group frees itself from its shackles; human nature being what it is, slaves very often don't desire freedom but slave ownership.

As it is, we now know the Exodus never happened, so the foundational myths of Judaism are either false (Exodus) or cribbed from earlier cultures (the Noah's Ark story is a retelling of the Atrahasis/Ut-Napishtim myth, Sargon was found in the bulrushes before Moses, etc).

Yahweh himself existed as one of the pantheon at Ugarit, and there are stone tablets which read "To Yahweh and His Asherah" in abundance. The words that usually appear as "groves" or "pillars" are actually "Asherah" in the singular or plural. Remember, to Bronze-Age people, gods were local foci of divine power, who each had home bases and spheres of influence; we even have on record, in 2 Kings if I remember right, Yahweh's Israelite army losing to the soldiers of the pagan god Chemosh, after the pagan king powered Chemosh up with human sacrifice no less!

Judaism took a long time, arguably all the way until the Babylonian Exile, to become truly monotheistic; before this it was henotheistic, where other gods were acknowledged, but Yahweh explicitly stated to be the strongest and Israel's patron/only/chief God. Post-Exilic Judaism is basically Zoroastrianism rewritten anyway, as Judaism had no idea of eschatology or reward/punishment in the afterlife before then.

All the ingredients for a toxic, perpetually-genocidal religious mix are thus gathered together: born in pain and rage, in an era of widespread brutality, conquered over and over again, delusional in the extreme each time and seeing it as some kind of mark of divine favor, and then syncretized with another religion that in no uncertain terms preached The End of Times and a hideous doom for all evildoers--define "evildoer" as convenient--and you can see what a mess we have on our hands.

It only got worse when the Romans destroyed the Second Temple around 70AD. Whatever Jesus believed in, he was no Christian as we would understand the term, and indeed even the idea of three coequal parts of the Trinity, the Athanasian view, was chosen for politically-motivated reasons at Nicaea in 325AD on Constantine's orders. He was a devout Jew, for example enjoining in Matthew 5:17-20 that all 613 mitzvot of the Mosaic law be upheld, and firmly believed that "there be some standing here who shall not taste of death before the Son of Man be come in glory." In other words, he was on fire with the idea that the end of the world was coming Real Soon Now (TM). Well, some 1990 years later...

I'm not even going to get into Islam. It's lunacy, plain and simple. Mohammed was a pedophile, a racist, a warmonger, and unfortunately also a master propagandist.

Thank you, KoE - I could soak in all this for hours, and I have miles of questions, but I don't want to be a nuisance.

Yep, that "chosen people" misunderstanding has been a serious problem, but in the Torah it's downright comical how the Hebrews dressed up in their best clothes to meet God but chickened out and sent Moses up the mountain alone. "We agree in advance to whatever! Just make him stop swirling and bellowing!" That's how chosen we were. 8]

And Judaism doesn't allow slavery, or even being crappy to strangers. Unless they happen to be living where we feel like settling ... o.0

But I digress. All religions make stuff up and/or crib from earlier sources, and yet some (one?) got more stuff right than the others. How did that happen? How did that group and not others get more pieces in place? Divine intervention? more NDEs? better hallucinogens?
 
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marcusuk63

marcusuk63

CTB
Mar 24, 2019
1,735
which one there are over 3,000 to follow one is to deny the existence of all the others , so i believe in just one less god than you :wink:
 
D

Deleted member 1768

Enlightened
Aug 15, 2018
1,107
No karma is not as simple as eye for an eye. No buddhist schools teaches it that way although alot of people believe it to be that way.


The full workings of karma is generally said to be an imponderable meaning that it cannot be comphrended by dualistic mind. You pretty much need to have super-clairvoyance of Buddhahood to see the full workings of karma. Karma and samsara is generally not really fair which is why buddhas and bodhisattavas want us to get out of it immediately. Good actions are also said to outweigh bad actions. Is that really fair?
Value judgements: who defines 'good actions'?
According to christians, suicide is the greatest sin committed against god. If you ask them where in the bible it says that, they don't have an answer.
'cause there is no mention of it in the Bible. Tah-dah...smile.
 
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D

Deleted member 1768

Enlightened
Aug 15, 2018
1,107
That experience that Storm went through is exactly the kind of shit nobody wants to go through, and regardless of how one accepts their self deliverance, the very moment one carries out their ctb one might go through a traumatic emotional state which might put them in the hell realm.

What is the best way to avoid that realm?
Accepting your death. That's it...acceptance.
God can kiss my fat pink ass.
I'm much more concerned with whether the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny, and Harry Potter will forgive me.

(if a compassionate god actually existed, I'm sure it would forgive you.)
If there was a 'compassionate god' we would not be here. Nope.
 
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Parasite#5231995

Parasite#5231995

Smile<Kill
Jun 4, 2019
1
Personally, I am terrified about the idea that if one commits suicide, they will go to hell. I do not know why one would go to hell after they suffered so much on Earth though. It seems really unreasonable and unfair that only more pain awaits after death. But still, the question remains if God would forgive people like me.
God does not exist.
 
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Rukia

Rukia

Enlightened
Jun 3, 2019
1,078
That is in another language. If it's the typical Christian narrative I don't buy it.
It is available in English too...I dont want to put excerpt here because that would be fear-mongering but yes, it is the typical Christian narrative and even much worse...
 
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Raggas

Raggas

Suicide is self expression
Dec 31, 2018
306
It is well said in the New Testament that God forgives all sins except the sin of unbelief. So yes, he does forgive suicides.
 
S

Shamana

Warlock
May 31, 2019
716
Value judgements: who defines 'good actions'?

'cause there is no mention of it in the Bible. Tah-dah...smile.

It's not hard to define positive and negative actions on a basic level. Good/positive actions are actions which bring about happiness, wisdom, health and succes etc. Negative actions are actions which bring unhappiness, sickness, death, failure etc.

You don't really a divine being making definitions for us.
 
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KnightOfEnceladus

KnightOfEnceladus

Lost child in time
May 20, 2019
231
@Rukia, people see what they are conditioned to see and believe what they are conditioned to believe. Hindus who have NDEs and were never exposed to Christianity do not see Jesus; they see Lord Yama or one of his scribes and are told to go back because their name has not been written in the ledger of deaths for that point in time.

Point is, what we believe has a marked effect on what we see. All the research I've done, and experiences I've had, point to there not even being an actual place called Hell, more a state of mind (so "Hell" can be anywhere) and a self-inflicted one at that. This woman was obviously very Christian, and old memories like that die hard even if they were only subconscious for her. This is why it's so important to know the truth.
 
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First loss

First loss

Specialist
Jan 28, 2019
393
Islam and Christianity are false religions, seeing as they sprang from the merger of Zoroastrianism and Judaism, which are also false religions. I wouldn't worry about the entire Abrahamic family at all; if anything, they are responsible for most of the suffering on this planet over the last 3000+ years!
Based. I am not religious at all? What do you think, which religion has the highest probability of being true?
 
KnightOfEnceladus

KnightOfEnceladus

Lost child in time
May 20, 2019
231
@First loss: None of them have the entire truth, but most of them have at least some of it. I would say the less-dogmatic forms of Buddhism are the least wrong religions, but even they get a lot wrong, some of it very badly to the detriment of their followers.
 
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S

Shamana

Warlock
May 31, 2019
716
Based. I am not religious at all? What do you think, which religion has the highest probability of being true?

IMO Buddhadharma is highest and truest of all reliigions. Study it you'll how advanced it. It was taught in originally in this world when Buddha archieved Enlightenment. From his qualities of buddhahood sprang omniscience, unconditioned love and compassion for all beings.

Budhism is extremely rich and complex. If you have established a close relationship with geninunely enlightended teacher then all doubt about the truth of buddhadharma vanishes rapidly.
 
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