Does God forgive suicide?

[GeorgeJL]

George - but what about those ctb by jumping off a bridge or in front of a train or pistol to the mouth? These methods can put one in the hell realm?

Maybe, meditational masters certainly taught that having a violent death could cause one to be born into a hell dimension. Heck even having a bad death by cancer is said to pull ones vibration down. That is at least in part why some of them starve to death (Prayopavesa and Sallekhana) at the end of their life rather than be overtaken by illness like cancer, or by some other very painful death. There is a lot we don't know about how all this works.

If your going to die then going peacefully is preferred. I still think there is an extreme aversion and self hatred in most suicides. There is not really buddhist teachings on good suicides since its not condoned.

Some hindus and jains are known to starve themselves to death at the end of their life so that they don't have a violent/painful death by illness. Such as Prayopavesa and Sallekhana.

 

[KnightOfEnceladus]

And this sort of thing is why I'm trying to go out peacefully. It's really, really fucked up that someone who did nothing tremendously wrong would end up "in hell" just because s/he died a violent death, too. That is supremely unjust.

 

[Jean Améry]

If there is a God, I would think he would frown upon CTB. Put yourself in his shoes. He gives us the greatest possible gifts, that of self-awareness, life, and free will, and we just piss it away. Imagine buying your kid a cherry red Ferrari Testarossa and he took a sledge hammer to it. How would you feel about that? Would you just say, Oh well, it's your choice!

Put yourself in his shoes: seriously? He lets babies be born with horrible birth-defects who die soon after birth or worse live on to lead agonizing lives, millions of people die of diseases and other natural causes each year and you think there is a god and he actually cares about us?

You can't have it both ways: you can't claim free will exists and then allow for punishment for those exercising their free will. The very ideas of a god and free will are contradictory: if a deity made us and knows everything we will do then our will can't exactly be free, can it?

Life, self-awareness and (supposed) free will aren't gifts but curses. Being alive means you're subjected to suffering and death (your own and others you love), self-awareness means mental suffering (realizing one's own inadequacy and how vulnerable one is aswell as the fact that one is going to die someday which usually provokes anxiety) and free will (assuming it indeed exists) is a terrible burden that forces one to make choices with potentially very heavy repercutions. "We are condemned to freedom" as Sartre put it. There's a good case to be made that animals suffer less than we do and for the very absence of self-awareness and 'free will'.

If you really believe suicide is a crime against god what are you doing here? Shouldn't you be in a church praying for god's redemption and salvation from the evil temptation of suicide? If your goal is to convert people and steer them away from suicide at least be honest about it. First you pretend to doubt then you talk as if you actually know what god is, wants and expects us to do. You clearly are a believer on a mission.

This really is the cherry on the cake: "Would you just say, Oh well, It's your choice!" How effing condescending can you be? Thanks for the warning, truly. Also a nice parody on the pro choice stance on this forum.

The whole gift analogy is a classic religious argument against suicide. Regardless of whether there is a god it's clear that it's faulty: a gift that comes with strings attached isn't a gift. If one gives something away legally that means transfer of ownership meaning it's no longer the giver's business what the receiving party does with it. A gift you can't throw away or destroy without serious repercutions is most certainly not a gift but something that was merely borrowed.

Life isn't a gift, it's an imposition. It was forced upon us: there never was a choice to make about whether we wanted it or not.

A religious pro-lifer who pretends to be pro choice but warns us of the terrible consequences of suicide (god!): priceless.

According to you suicide is pissing away god's great gifts of life, self-awareness and free will (what a refreshing breeze of optimism: life is swell! pro life all the way!): classic religious condemnation of suicide not to mention supremely insulting to those who completed CTB (such dummies for throwing away such wonderful gifts). You are a troll. Go worship your hero on the cross somewhere else (ironically a 'suicide by cop/the justice system').

"Life without suffering would be hell": lmao. Factually this is a meaningless statement as there is no way to know what it would be like. More importantly the attitude that this is an expression of is again condescending: if you had actually suffered gravely you wouldn't be spouting such nonsense. People who are genuinly suicidal aren't so glib about suffering. You actually have the gall to claim suffering is a gift aswell (post nr. 35 in this thread)... Implying people should be grateful for their mental and physical afflictions. On this forum where there is so much suffering that people frequently take the only route open to them...

I'm having trouble not to swear at you right now. The supreme, cold-hearted arrogance... Your attitude is worse than shitty. Revel in your own masochism all you like but leave others out of it.

In a thread you started you made the following remarks: "The talk of how easy it is to CTB is leading me to believe that's the easy way out. Death is going to come for each of us soon enough with no help from ourselves. These dark thoughts are a vicious circle. I get depressed and think there's no way out but death, then wish to die, then get more depressed. I have just gotten deeper and deeper into despair. But when I step back and look at my situation, it's not as bad as it feels. It's bad, but people have suffered worse than me. I need to quit feeling sorry for myself and stop being afraid. ... Get up and fight dammit. Quit being a coward and fight. " ( https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/i-want-to-live.16775/#post-321119 )

Suicide is easy (I'ver never read that here btw), it's the easy way out, death will come anyway, some have it worse, there are reasons to live, dark thoughts are a vicious cycle, depression takes away one's ability to see clearly, get up and fight, suicide results from (temporary) despair...

Google 'suicide' and this is the sort of prevention tripe you'll find.

In that same post you claim you suddely saw the light after a few days on this forum. Yet you hung around, apparantly to teach us about the lord and the spiritual dangers of suicide aswell as the benefits of suffering. You joined very recently so after the whole media circus. In the thread I mentioned you offer 'help where I can. Sometimes we all just want to be heard and understood, and that's all that it takes' (yeah all that is needed to solve our problems is a good talk: that's all it takes to make everything go away, isn't it?). You started an 'honesty thread' (group therapy children: you actually called it 'therapeutic' btw and of course 'honesty' is a big buzzword in psychotherapy/the mental health system). Now this religious preaching and barely contained glee at the supposed fate of suicides.

It all adds up, doesn't it? Not_a_robot, Soul, Alchemist, LMAO Fockers and Spanishguy22 (see their comments in that thread) were right. I can't believe I actually fell for your Spiel.

You all heard it from the master's own lips so to speak: life is a Ferrari so go have a blast!

 

[KnightOfEnceladus]

@Jean Améry: THANK YOU for this! I was so sick of that self-righteous claptrap but didn't want to go all guns blazing on it because a previous post of mine got deleted for doing that. What you wrote really needed to be said, though. All of it.

 

[NOT]

If you are born into this world, already that's some unspeakable punishment.

 

[Jean Améry]

@Jean Améry: THANK YOU for this! I was so sick of that self-righteous claptrap but didn't want to go all guns blazing on it because a previous post of mine got deleted for doing that. What you wrote really needed to be said, though. All of it.

You're welcome. I thought about merely reporting this to a mod but I could not let the grotesque, insulting statements this individual made stand. Not for me personally but for what this forum stands for. If it was just one or two incidents I wouldn't have bothered (one should be careful not to jump to conclusions) but this is too obvious/blatant. Plus others noticed the same thing so I don't think I'm biased here.

I do not subscribe to any sort of glorification of suicide (like it's a cool thing to do instead of a tragic necessity) and I'm actually glad when people choose life but to spit on brave souls' memory like that by implying what they did was stupid and they ought to be punished for it...

I do not take issue with religious beliefs as such (to each his/her own) but the completely ridiculous analogy was too much especially the total lack of respect it expresses. If people's lives were like a Ferrari they wouldn't be thinking about suicide. The correct analogy here is a completely run-down, broken, unsalvagable car that is taken to the scrapyard because it cannot possibly be fixed.

To triviliaze severe suffering is sickening and I will not stand for it. I've read about too much misery here for that and received too much genuine empathy. It's bad enough I can't help anyone in the real sense of the word but at least they have a safe place here to honestly express themselves. 'Wideawake' here clearly thinks that shouldn't be the case and they should be subjected to psychotherapeutic 'tough love' bullshit.

 

[ManWithNoName]

Maybe, meditational masters certainly taught that having a violent death could cause one to be born into a hell dimension. Heck even having a bad death by cancer is said to pull ones vibration down. That is at least in part why some of them starve to death (Prayopavesa and Sallekhana) at the end of their life rather than be overtaken by illness like cancer, or by some other very painful death. There is a lot we don't know about how all this works.

Some hindus and jains are known to starve themselves to death at the end of their life so that they don't have a violent/painful death by illness. Such as Prayopavesa and Sallekhana.

I would speculate that dying via starvation is not entirely painless.

What about those who are happy in life but end up dying in a horrible plane crash, or in an ISIS beheading? So these folks end up in hell realm?

Scary thought - is there anything that one can do to avoid hell realm when he / she dies or ctb?

 

[KnightOfEnceladus]

This doesn't comport with the research I've done. Sure, no one who commits suicide is going to go immediately into sweetness and light, but that's just ridiculous.

 

[Person]

I would think that, if a god of any form exists, firstly, they wouldn't allow us to feel such pain that we want to ctb to begin with. And secondly, if we did ctb, I feel God would be understanding and forgiving, because they could see the pain we were in, and that we felt there was no other escape.
I don't believe an all-knowing, all-loving God could condemn someone for returning their life because they can't bare the suffering anymore.

That's just my opinion though.

 

[NOT]

Gods. Dimensions. Vibrations. Karmic wheel of fortune.
I dont think mods are happy.
This is sanctioned suicide people.
Very basic and down to earth place.

 

[fisil]

We all going in the same place, where animals end up we do. It really scars me that meat is delicious and vegatable not so. The creator is pretty sick inside his head, but that's just my opinion.

 

[WideAwake]

Put yourself in his shoes: seriously? He lets babies be... and you think there is a god and he actually cares about us?

I think I was pretty clear that I don't know if a God exists. And I make no claim to know whether any such God cares about us or not.

you can't claim free will exists and then allow for punishment for those exercising their free will.

I've made no such claim, though I can't see why such a claim could not be made. Free will and punishment for one's actions are not mutually exclusive.

The very ideas of a god and free will are contradictory: if a deity made us and knows everything we will do then our will can't exactly be free, can it?

I don't see why not. Just because a deity knows what you're going to do doesn't make your actions compulsory.

Life, self-awareness and (supposed) free will aren't gifts but curses.

Cursed by whom? Are you conceding that you believe a vindictive God exists here?

Being alive means you're subjected ... 'free will'.

I suppose it is a matter of perspective. But your description of life sounds like hyperbole to me. To know suffering, one must know well-being and contendedness, meaning that life is not all suffering.

If you really believe suicide is a crime against god what are you doing here?

I am begining to think you may have a reading comprehension problem, as you repeatedly assign statements to me which I have not made. Do you not know that it is rude to put words in other people's mouths?

Shouldn't you be in a church ... You clearly are a believer on a mission.

I have no response to this, as it is errant presumptuousness. I am not religious, nor have I claimed to know what God is. I've merely used logical deduction to make conclusions about a God if such God does exist.

This really is the cherry on the cake: "Would you just say, Oh well, It's your choice!" How effing condescending can you be? Thanks for the warning, truly. Also a nice parody on the pro choice stance on this forum.

I am not sure what you're trying to communicate here.

The whole gift analogy is a classic religious argument against suicide. Regardless of whether there is a god it's clear that it's faulty: a gift that comes with strings attached isn't a gift. If one gives something away legally that means transfer of ownership meaning it's no longer the giver's business what the receiving party does with it. A gift you can't throw away or destroy without serious repercutions is most certainly not a gift but something that was merely borrowed.

Everything has consequences. That's life.

Life isn't a gift, it's an imposition. It was forced upon us: there never was a choice to make about whether we wanted it or not.

Forced upon you by whom?

A religious pro-lifer who pretends to be pro choice but warns us of the terrible consequences of suicide (god!): priceless.

You are quite the Don Quixote. It has been very entertaining watching you set up strawman after strawman and then proceed to slay each one you construct.

According to you suicide is pissing away god's great gifts of life, self-awareness and free will (what a refreshing breeze of optimism: life is swell! pro life all the way!): classic religious condemnation of suicide not to mention supremely insulting to those who completed CTB (such dummies for throwing away such wonderful gifts). You are a troll. Go worship your hero on the cross somewhere else (ironically a 'suicide by cop/the justice system').

If I were religious, why would you presume I'm Christian? I am not sure how you come to your conclusions other than just outright mental masturbation.

Life without suffering would be hell": lmao. Factually this is a meaningless statement as there is no way to know what it would be like.

I think it only requires an imagination and an ability to rationalize logically.

More importantly the attitude that this is an expression of is again condescending: if you had actually suffered gravely you wouldn't be spouting such nonsense. People who are genuinly suicidal aren't so glib about suffering. You actually have the gall to claim suffering is a gift aswell (post nr. 35 in this thread)... Implying people should be grateful for their mental and physical afflictions. On this forum where there is so much suffering that people frequently take the only route open to them...

I find it glib and pompous that you actually claim to speak for all suicidal people here. And at this point I have grown weary of responding to your strawmen.

I'm having trouble not to swear at you right now. The supreme, cold-hearted arrogance... Your attitude is worse than shitty. Revel in your own masochism all you like but leave others out of it.

If there is no God and life is meaningless, what restrains you from swearing at me? Are you concerned about my feelings? It doesn't seem like it. Are you putting on airs that you are taking the higher road? Again, obviously not the case. I can't really see what might hold you back. Perhaps you're worried that might offend someone? LOL It's really entertaining to imagine what held you back here. I think it was just you trying to position your own ego in a position of superiority by reaffirming to yourself that you are able to control yourself. But that's just my guess.

In a thread you started you made the following remarks: "The talk of how easy it is to CTB is leading me to believe that's the easy way out. Death is going to come for each of us soon enough with no help from ourselves. These dark thoughts are a vicious circle. I get depressed and think there's no way out but death, then wish to die, then get more depressed. I have just gotten deeper and deeper into despair. But when I step back and look at my situation, it's not as bad as it feels. It's bad, but people have suffered worse than me. I need to quit feeling sorry for myself and stop being afraid. ... Get up and fight dammit. Quit being a coward and fight. " ( https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/i-want-to-live.16775/#post-321119 )

Suicide is easy (I'ver never read that here btw), it's the easy way out, death will come anyway, some have it worse, there are reasons to live, dark thoughts are a vicious cycle, depression takes away one's ability to see clearly, get up and fight, suicide results from (temporary) despair...

Google 'suicide' and this is the sort of prevention tripe you'll find.

If by "tripe" you mean truths and facts, then yes, I agree.

In that same post you claim you suddely saw the light after a few days on this forum.

You'll have to refresh my memory as to where you read such nonsense. I'm pretty sure you weren't reading anything that I wrote.

Yet you hung around, apparantly to teach us about the lord and the spiritual dangers of suicide aswell as the benefits of suffering. You joined very recently so after the whole media circus. In the thread I mentioned you offer 'help where I can. Sometimes we all just want to be heard and understood, and that's all that it takes' (yeah all that is needed to solve our problems is a good talk: that's all it takes to make everything go away, isn't it?). You started an 'honesty thread' (group therapy children: you actually called it 'therapeutic' btw and of course 'honesty' is a big buzzword in psychotherapy/the mental health system). Now this religious preaching and barely contained glee at the supposed fate of suicides.

I assure you that I am legitimately suicidal. I grow more so every day. And I have very good reasons for feeling this way. I do want to live, but I feel that my life has become unsustainable and miserable. But I see others here whose circumstances are not so bad. Not everyone of course, but there are some. For instance, people that want to kill themselves because their significant others broke up with them. Heartbreak is a normal part of everyone's life. Sure, it sucks, but it's not grounds to kill yourself really.

It all adds up, doesn't it? Not_a_robot, Soul, Alchemist, LMAO Fockers and Spanishguy22 (see their comments in that thread) were right. I can't believe I actually fell for your Spiel.

There are definitely a lot of angry trolls in these forums, I will give you that. If my "spiel" is so transparent and ineffectual, I wonder why it makes you all so angry?

You all heard it from the master's own lips so to speak: life is a Ferrari so go have a blast!

Well, that was quite a melodramatic ham-fisted tirade. Do you feel better now?

 

[KnightOfEnceladus]

@WideAwake, you...kind of messed up here.

Most importantly, yes, if a being is omniscient it knows all possible knowledge, including what you will do. Far from being a foreign notion to Christianity, this doctrine expressly appears in Calvinism and other members of the "Reformed" tradition.

Your "hurr if i'm so weak den wai u mad, bro?!" is a classic troll. Cut that crap out. It has no place here.

And you commit a fallacy by saying that if there is no God nothing matters. You, for someone who claims agnosticism, are parroting a large chunk of apologetics right here, in this case the idea of Divine Command Theory.

This particular mental disease happens to be one of my specialties. How exactly would a God or its commands create obligation? That is, how does the existence of a God or the mere fact that it commands something lead to the idea that we should obey it? What is the "normative force" behind a God giving a command to us?

Oh yes, and you do not refer to @Soul as "angry troll." She is one of the most genuinely compassionate and caring people on this forum, and her behavior stands in sharp contrast to yours. You owe her an apology.

 

[WideAwake]

@WideAwake, you...kind of messed up here.

Most importantly, yes, if a being is omniscient it knows all possible knowledge, including what you will do. Far from being a foreign notion to Christianity, this doctrine expressly appears in Calvinism and other members of the "Reformed" tradition.

Your "hurr if i'm so weak den wai u mad, bro?!" is a classic troll. Cut that crap out. It has no place here.

Who do you think you are, telling others what they can and cannot say or think? How pompous! I will respond as I see fit, if that's okay with you, thanks. If you don't like what I type, you can exercise your free will not to respond, right?

And you commit a fallacy by saying that if there is no God nothing matters. You, for someone who claims agnosticism, are parroting a large chunk of apologetics right here, in this case the idea of Divine Command Theory.

I made no such assertion.

This particular mental disease happens to be one of my specialties. How exactly would a God or its commands create obligation? That is, how does the existence of a God or the mere fact that it commands something lead to the idea that we should obey it?

I am not sure why you are asking me this, but I would assume the answer religious people would give is that if you don't obey God then you get to go to Hell.

What is the "normative force" behind a God giving a command to us?

Eternal damnation is the answer you're looking for.

Oh yes, you do not refer to @Soul as "angry troll." She is one of the most genuinely compassionate and caring people on this forum, and her behavior stands in sharp contrast to yours. You owe her an apology.

I will apologize if you can show where I referred to the person in question explicitly as an angry troll.

 

[Taylored]

I've read the bible a while back and from what I've understood is that suicide won't send you to hell. God doesn't exactly approve of suicide but won't punish you for it. A couple people in the Bible committed suicide but didn't get send down.

But I'm not very into religious stuff so I can't say that I'm 100% right.

 

[GeorgeJL]

I would speculate that dying via starvation is not entirely painless.

What about those who are happy in life but end up dying in a horrible plane crash, or in an ISIS beheading? So these folks end up in hell realm?

Scary thought - is there anything that one can do to avoid hell realm when he / she dies or ctb?

I've thought about this a lot. If there is a way to go directly to heaven it would be to use a psychedelic and then take your life with like an inert gas. But I would warn against this because if you get a bad trip then you could end up going to hell, in theory at least. Using something like N could actually lower your vibration compared to inert gas because N makes you sleepy, meaning it a drug that causes inhibition. The best state to be in spiritually is wide awake and aware. I even remember reading a story of someone that inhaled too much helium and he passed out then had a heavenly like experience then came back. Did he actually go to heaven? IDK but it's an interesting idea. This is all just theory. I don't know ultimately speaking. All I know is that the afterlife is real because I've experienced ghosts, and because I've been in it with afterlife with an astral projection. And through reading the experiences of many other people with the afterlife, I've come to learn that meditational masters warn against having a bad death.

In fact that is why when a family member is about to die family will spend days chanting over and over in their own language. "Go to the clear light of the void" over and over. Because they know that death is a very sacred transition.

Even if you die and find yourself in the belief territories, you can still go to heaven. Just speak with authority "higher self now" and demand it with your whole heart and you can go higher. The last two paragraphs is all stuff that William Buhlman teaches, a famous astral projector.

Personally, I am terrified about the idea that if one commits suicide, they will go to hell. I do not know why one would go to hell after they suffered so much on Earth though. It seems really unreasonable and unfair that only more pain awaits after death. But still, the question remains if God would forgive people like me.

@Shorine There is no place in the Bible where it directly says you will go to hell for taking your life. Judas doesn't count because he betrayed Jesus. "Thou shalt not kill" is actually originally "thou shalt not murder." So I don't think there is anyplace that condemns suicide, and I've read the bible cover the cover. Read the new testament several times.

This article agrees with me that suicide isn't condemned in the Bible.

Suicide in the Bible
[URL="http://www.bibleodyssey.org/en/people/related-articles/suicide-in-the-bible[/URL]"]www.bibleodyssey.org/en/people/related-articles/suicide-in-the-bible[/URL]

 

[Jessica5]

Anyway, I just read an article about the history of Christianity and suicide. It was fascinating.

Suicide is occasionally mentioned in both the Old and New Testaments, but the morality of suicide is never discussed in the Bible. Apparently the early Christians had a high rate of suicide because the religion basically taught that life on earth is pointless and the afterlife is what matters.

St Augustine convinced the Church to take a stance against suicide. This stance was taken because there were fears that Christianity wouldn't survive if the adherents kept committing suicide.

I'm an atheist, but I found it interesting.

 

[KnightOfEnceladus]

@Jessica5: Augustine is responsible for a tremendous amount of fucked-up shit Christianity got lumbered with. If you have the time and a strong stomach, you can read about some of it. He was tormented by his own psychosexual neuroses, and it shows.

@GeorgeJL: with respect, it's really not as bad as you're portraying it. I've done plenty of NDE research, and while it seems like a lot of suicides do end up in dark places, it's not the Buddhist idea of the Naraka realms. Also, you seem to be conflating heaven (deva-loka?) with actual liberation in the clear light of death if I'm reading you right...?

At any rate, I'm going to attempt to use metoclopramide (a friend, to whom I owe an eternal debt, will be helping me with this), 100mL of 2-methyl-2-butanol, and an absolute shedload of propranolol to catch the bus, and I'll be doing it on my laptop, talking with my wonderful girlfriend, and listening to music that puts me in a meditative state of mind. Yes, I'll likely end up in some dark "limbo," but I know to ask for help, and I have a firm resolve to take on a form that can benefit other beings, rather than coming back here.

 

[GeorgeJL]

with respect, it's really not as bad as you're portraying it. I've done plenty of NDE research, and while it seems like a lot of suicides do end up in dark places, it's not the Buddhist idea of the Naraka realms. Also, you seem to be conflating heaven (deva-loka?) with actual liberation in the clear light of death if I'm reading you right...?

Maybe, but you should read the NDE of Howard Storm. He was an atheist and when he had his NDE he was in the afterlife and in a safe place, but some negative entities came and told him they were there to help him. And since he was in a hospital he thought he was fine, he thought they were their to help him. And just before he left that brightly lit room to follow them into the darkness he knew deep down that there was no going back once he followed them. But he followed them anyway. He followed them for what seemed like a very long time. Every time he protested they would get angrier and angrier urging him that he had to come with them. Eventually he found himself in compete darkness having no idea where he was or who these people are. They proceeded to torment him. They tormented him for what seemed like a very long time. They loved every reaction they got out of him. Every time he tried to fight back just feed their desire for more. Eventually when they tormented him so much that he couldn't get any reaction out of him anymore. They left, leaving him utterly desolate. Pain so strong it would make Hitlers death camps seem like childs play. He found that if he started to say anything wholesome that they would be repelled by that. Like the pledge of allegiance. He heard a voice come from his heart that said, call out to Jesus. He remembered as a young child in Church Sunday school the song. "Jesus loves me this I know because the Bible tells me so." He noticed that they were repelled by this so he started singing it. He didn't think anything was going to happen, then eventually he saw a light in the distance. And this light got bigger and bigger. Eventually it engulfed the whole area, and any evil entities fled away. And it was Jesus. Jesus not only healed him but brought him to heaven. Where he meet the angels of light. He asked the angels of light "what is the best religion" they said "the religion that brings you closest to God." They showed him many things. And many other worlds. Some more advanced than our own and some worse than our own. Then he came back and he's written many books about his experience. He was an atheist professor. If an atheist professor can find hell so easy, then we are not that far off ourselves from potentially finding it.

 

[ManWithNoName]

Maybe, but you should read the NDE of Howard Storm. He was an atheist and when he had his NDE he was in the afterlife and in a safe place, but some negative entities came and told him they were there to help him. And since he was in a hospital he thought he was fine, he thought they were their to help him. And just before he left that brightly lit room to follow them into the darkness he knew deep down that there was no going back once he followed them. But he followed them anyway. He followed them for what seemed like a very long time. Every time he protested they would get angrier and angrier urging him that he had to come with them. Eventually he found himself in compete darkness having no idea where he was or who these people are. They proceeded to torment him. They tormented him for what seemed like a very long time. They loved every reaction they got out of him. Every time he tried to fight back just feed their desire for more. Eventually when they tormented him so much that he couldn't get any reaction out of him anymore. They left, leaving him utterly desolate. Pain so strong it would make Hitlers death camps seem like childs play. He found that if he started to say anything wholesome that they would be repelled by that. Like the pledge of allegiance. He heard a voice come from his heart that said, call out to Jesus. He remembered as a young child in Church Sunday school the song. "Jesus loves me this I know because the Bible tells me so." He noticed that they were repelled by this so he started singing it. He didn't think anything was going to happen, then eventually he saw a light in the distance. And this light got bigger and bigger. Eventually it engulfed the whole area, and any evil entities fled away. And it was Jesus. Jesus not only healed him but brought him to heaven. Where he meet the angels of light. He asked the angels of light "what is the best religion" they said "the religion that brings you closest to God." They showed him many things. And many other worlds. Some more advanced than our own and some worse than our own. Then he came back and he's written many books about his experience. He was an atheist professor. If an atheist professor can find hell so easy, then you better believe some of us are in grave danger.

That experience that Storm went through is exactly the kind of shit nobody wants to go through, and regardless of how one accepts their self deliverance, the very moment one carries out their ctb one might go through a traumatic emotional state which might put them in the hell realm.

What is the best way to avoid that realm?

 

[Nem]

I don't know if god exists or not, you'd think being all knowing of our situations, God would understand. When life turns from living to just existing, one shouldn't be held hostage or forced to continue when there is little to no hope of change
Peace/hugs

 

[GeorgeJL]

That experience that Storm went through is exactly the kind of shit nobody wants to go through, and regardless of how one accepts their self deliverance, the very moment one carries out their ctb one might go through a traumatic emotional state which might put them in the hell realm.

What is the best way to avoid that realm?

Well there is more than one way to skin a cat as a universalist. But in general stay away from negative emotions. That is number one. Second is know the truth. I don't believe Howard would have followed those evil beings if he knew the truth. But man that is a double whammy if someone is deceived and they have a bunch of negative emotions in the wrong directions on top of it. Then add to that a violent death, IDK man but it's better to be safe than sorry. Perhaps you should know that Howard Storm was an alcoholic too before he had this experience.

Instead of focusing on the negative you must focus on the positive. Because the antidote is it's opposite. Which is universal knowledge, love, peace, harmony.

 

[ManWithNoName]

Well there is more than one way to skin a cat as a universalist. But in general stay away from negative emotions. That is number one. Second is know the truth. I don't believe Howard would have followed those evil beings if he knew the truth. But man that is a double whammy if someone is deceived and they have a bunch of negative emotions in the wrong directions on top of it. Then add to that a violent death, IDK man but it's better to be safe than sorry. Perhaps you should know that Howard Storm was an alcoholic too before he had this experience.

Instead of focusing on the negative you must focus on the positive. Because the antidote is it's opposite. Which is universal knowledge, love, peace, harmony.

Thanks for posting the charts. So when you say "stay positive" then what you mean is focus on the emotions of the left spiral?

 

[KnightOfEnceladus]

@GeorgeJL: Yes, I've known about Storm for almost a decade now. That is not the "Hell realm" of Buddhism, certainly not as described in any sutra I've read.

 

[GeorgeJL]

Thanks for posting the charts. So when you say "stay positive" then what you mean is focus on the emotions of the left spiral?

Something like that, not only should you focus on positive emotions, but the truth that will lead you to better and better emotions. There are two types of truth. There is your individual truths like my truth is that I like the color blue. Then there is the Truth with a capital T which is the immutable unchangeable truth such I am source. Then there is a truth that is kind of in the middle like I am a teacher or policemen. Those are only temporarily true, but you will always remain eternally a part of your source.

Speaking of feeling great positive emotions, psychedelics are perfect for this.

Yes, I've known about Storm for almost a decade now. That is not the "Hell realm" of Buddhism, certainly not as described in any sutra I've read.

They all point to the same thing, hell. Just the fact that they agree on that means a lot. Besides the Buddha taught of many hells. There as hells that the Buddha didn't even talk about from what I remember.

 

[KnightOfEnceladus]

Missing the point, @GeorgeJL. At no time I can remember did any sutra state you can get helped out of those realms by simply asking for it. Yes, I know there are supposed to be Buddhas even for the hell realms, chief among them Ksitigarbha (Jizou-sama), but that's not who or what appeared here. And how much do you want to bet Storm saw a long-haired, pale, fair-skinned hippie Jesus rather than the real thing, who would have looked like someone most Americans wouldn't want to let on an airplane? The mind creates these things. You've become far too dogmatic.

 

[bugfriendly]

If there is a hell it can't be any worse than this agony. Fuck it I'll take my chances.

 

[GeorgeJL]

Missing the point, @GeorgeJL. At no time I can remember did any sutra state you can get helped out of those realms by simply asking for it. Yes, I know there are supposed to be Buddhas even for the hell realms, chief among them Ksitigarbha (Jizou-sama), but that's not who or what appeared here. And how much do you want to bet Storm saw a long-haired, pale, fair-skinned hippie Jesus rather than the real thing, who would have looked like someone most Americans wouldn't want to let on an airplane? The mind creates these things. You've become far too dogmatic.

The Buddha never said that a master can't bring someone out of these hell realms.

Look both of us have points. I get it Howard Storm describes an experience not reported in the sutras. What is your point?

It's like if my mom goes to England she is going to have a vastly different experience than if my nephew goes to England.

 

[KnightOfEnceladus]

My point, @GeorgeJL, is that you are being far too dogmatic. The experiences and research I've done have convinced me that while Buddhism is the least wrong of all religions, there is plenty it still gets wrong, and it's too negative about the actual reality of things. And coming from a professional pessimist like me that is saying something.

 

[GeorgeJL]

My point, @GeorgeJL, is that you are being far too dogmatic. The experiences and research I've done have convinced me that while Buddhism is the least wrong of all religions, there is plenty it still gets wrong, and it's too negative about the actual reality of things. And coming from a professional pessimist like me that is saying something.

I agree with you, I do tend to think that the Buddha viewed life through a very pessimistic lens on life. At the same time we don't have hardcore data on how many go to hell like Howard, and how many don't. At the same time I agree that most people that have NDEs don't experience any kind of hell, even atheists for the most part don't have a Howard Storm like experience, at least that is what the data suggests. It could be that violent deaths are not the main predictor of who goes to hell. But IMO in all likelihood it's a risk factor. Can we at least agree that a violent death could be a risk factor for going to hell among other things?