Does God forgive suicide?

[KnightOfEnceladus]

@Shamana: Okay, fair enough, but you've gone "all in" and have contracted your worldview around it. With this comes the assumption that everything you are taught about in Buddhism is the way things actually work. I have less depth in Buddhism than you do, but a wider spread of knowledge, and that spread has included more empirical research and observation. Were it not for that I might actually have been a Buddhist convert as well, but I've seen things outside the system that contradict it.

@Soul: Oh...I'm not actually sure how to elaborate on that. But basically it's like "what if we found out this whole karma thing is just some unimaginably old, unimaginably powerful, incredibly evil being gaslighting us to make us keep reincarnating and suffering because it feeds on our pain?"

There's no way to prove or disprove that, because it's on a scale far too large for us to comprehend.

Alternatively, it could be "what if this karma thing is actually being maintained by someone that thinks it's some kind of God, but actually isn't, and it thinks it's doing justice but isn't really? What happens, then, if this being has its equivalent of a bad day and decides to drop us all into endless suffering or something?"

Again: no way to prove it or disprove it.

 

[Shamana]

Okay, fair enough, but you've gone "all in" and have contracted your worldview around it. With this comes the assumption that everything you are taught about in Buddhism is the way things actually work. I have less depth in Buddhism than you do, but a wider spread of knowledge, and that spread has included more empirical research and observation. Were it not for that I might actually have been a Buddhist convert as well, but I've seen things outside the system that contradict it.
@Soul: Oh...I'm not actually sure how to elaborate on that. But basically it's like "what if we found out this whole karma thing is just some unimaginably old, unimaginably powerful, incredibly evil being gaslighting us to make us keep reincarnating and suffering because it feeds on our pain?"

There's no way to prove or disprove that, because it's on a scale far too large for us to comprehend.

Alternatively, it could be "what if this karma thing is actually being maintained by someone that thinks it's some kind of God, but actually isn't, and it thinks it's doing justice but isn't really? What happens, then, if this being has its equivalent of a bad day and decides to drop us all into endless suffering or something?"

Again: no way to prove it or disprove it.

I've experienced quite a lot of stuff. I lived for a year 2-3 mins max away from a buddhist family I consider to be the most enlightened family in the western world. In Dzogchen it is said that highly adept practioners can manifest the rainbow body. I've witnessed 2 from this family show me this on 2 seperate occasions.

https://www.lionsroar.com/what-is-rainbow-body/

When I was in better health and somewhat fully comitted to practice, I could experience my body transmute into rainbow light and then dissolve into space and just vanish. I couldn't feel much benefit from it though apart from it being a cool psychedelic experience.

I also for a period had spontaneus visions of buddhas and my yidam deity very frequently.

I've also witnessed their freakish clairvoyance for years.

The people I know are the most omniscient people I've ever met so I willy fully honestly admit that I faith in the fact that they most likely know a lot more about the workings of karma and universe than I do while what they want more than anything is that we attain our liberation as soon as possible.

The full workings of karma is not unknowable, but you really need some very special abilities to see it.

 

[KnightOfEnceladus]

@Shamana: okay, no argument there. It's impressive they're able to do that, for certain. My own take on that, though, is that it's just one of many paths (maybe the best?) to The Absolute. And I don't think it's one that holds all the answers, and indeed may have serious problems or deficiencies in some of their purported answers, this being based on my own experiences and research.

I am lightly clairvoyant/telepathic myself, and over the last year or so have noticed one incident of that almost daily, usually. This has been going on since childhood, and while I didn't get inducted into it or anything, I've been training those skills all alone for whatever they may lead to. People have always said I'm an old soul, and I have a very "healing" nature, hence the attraction to working in hospitals and such. So while no Buddhist myself, I seem to have some sort of similar psionic skills, though certainy nothing like manifesting a rainbow body.

 

[Weems]

I quite simply to do not at the current moment possess the capacity to attain the omniscience needed

Been there brotha

 

[Shamana]

@Shamana: okay, no argument there. It's impressive they're able to do that, for certain. My own take on that, though, is that it's just one of many paths (maybe the best?) to The Absolute. And I don't think it's one that holds all the answers, and indeed may have serious problems or deficiencies in some of their purported answers, this being based on my own experiences and research.

I am lightly clairvoyant/telepathic myself, and over the last year or so have noticed one incident of that almost daily, usually. This has been going on since childhood, and while I didn't get inducted into it or anything, I've been training those skills all alone for whatever they may lead to. People have always said I'm an old soul, and I have a very "healing" nature, hence the attraction to working in hospitals and such. So while no Buddhist myself, I seem to have some sort of similar psionic skills, though certainy nothing like manifesting a rainbow body.

I think there are tons of path that have merit. I'm attracted to the world of shamanism though. However If I have to choose a refuge it's buddhadharma. Actually i feel so ashamed and so sad that I my mental and bodily health have been ruined, because I know how extremely rare it is for a western person to connect with Dzogchen teachings so young and meet and have a relationship with real Dzogchen masters and adepts.

I definitely consider Dzogchen the most rapid path to the absolute, but it's only really suitable for people who are prepared to give 100% commitment. The same goes for Vajrayana/Tibetan Buddhism in general.

FX as a said Karma of a tantric intiate commiting suicide is much heavier than a non-tantric intiate comitting suicide. So a person like me who is trapped in my own personal nightmare, it's a bit of a pickle.

It's cool you have some clairvoyant abilities. Generally at buddhist centers there are quite a lot people about who have some kind of ability one way or another. They are really nice too.

 

[TAW122]

I'm an atheist, but according to my understanding of the bible, suicide is not necessarily a sin (some theologians may debate this). Also, if I recall, it was the RCC (Roman Catholic Church) that forbade suicide and decreed it to be a 'sin'.

 

[KnightOfEnceladus]

@Shamana, have you asked why it's supposedly worse karma for a tantric initiate? I know the answer you gave, but it doesn't actually answer the question; what is it about being trained to see yourself as a mandala that makes suicide so much worse?

 

[Lefty]

I'm not very religious. However I think God does forgive suicide. Also, I don't believe in hell. I think that is just fear-mongering by the church/religious elites. If you really loved someone you wouldn't want them to suffer for all eternity. I'm agnostic, but that's just my take on it.

 

[Jessica5]

No, God doesn't forgive suicide. In fact, God doesn't forgive anything, or do anything. Since God isn't real.

 

[KnightOfEnceladus]

@Lefty: the idea of Hell the Abrahamic religions have came from Zoroastrianism with some Greek religion thrown in. Post-Exilic Judaism is to blame for this. I wish more people knew these things and didn't have to suffer! Hellfire and brimstone as a little girl are what ultimately lead me to this place; I've known better for ages, but the damage has long since been done.

 

[PatKat]

If there is a God, I would think he would frown upon CTB. Put yourself in his shoes. He gives us the greatest possible gifts, that of self-awareness, life, and free will, and we just piss it away. Imagine buying your kid a cherry red Ferrari Testarossa and he took a sledge hammer to it. How would you feel about that? Would you just say, Oh well, it's your choice!

What are these "greatest possible gifts" you speak of??? I do not understand what you mean.

 

[3dworldsucks]

theres no God. However, I do believe when you die, you are at "peace".

 

[GeorgeJL]

Karma does not work that way according to Buddha's teaching. If you commit a violent act with hatred that karma you receive back will be 7 or 8 fold. Similary if you are in a band of soldiers who commit killing, even if you do not kill "enemies"/civilians, but you support your fellow soldiers and do not try to stop them, then the karma you recieve in potentiated by number of humans killed and potentiated by the number of soldiers in the group. This is why it said that soldiers generally do not attain higher rebirths (human or higher). On a similar note intentionally injuring a buddha is said to cause instant rebirth hell as will murdering your parents.

Karma is not quite as simple as an eye for an eye.

I'm surprised that you didn't say probably the most important thing for OP from the meditational perspective. That is we should have a peaceful death because a violent death can actually cause a birth into the hell realms.

 

[Shamana]

I'm surprised that you didn't say probably the most important thing for OP from the meditational perspective. That is we should have a peaceful death because a violent death can actually cause a birth into the hell realms.

If your going to die then going peacefully is preferred. I still think there is an extreme aversion and self hatred in most suicides. There is not really buddhist teachings on good suicides since its not condoned.

 

[LMFAO FOCKERS]

I'm not sure I believe in God but if I were to believe I see God as omniscient and infinite. If he's in everything there is no bad or good only contrast for learning and deep understanding. That would mean there is free choice in everything covering both life and death. That would also mean God is in you and he/she couldn't be mad at you without being mad at him/herself. Free choice means no limitations. Our human mind rarely thinks in that manner because everything that is concrete shapes how we live and perceive thus creating the idea of a finite outcome. So if God is infinite and not subject to the limitations of human mind that creates limiting outcomes then there is no judgement at all.

And if I God doesnt exist then I just wasted 10 minutes of my life typing a bunch of BS responding to a question that never mattered to begin with.

 

[Soul]

@Shamana: Okay, fair enough, but you've gone "all in" and have contracted your worldview around it. With this comes the assumption that everything you are taught about in Buddhism is the way things actually work. I have less depth in Buddhism than you do, but a wider spread of knowledge, and that spread has included more empirical research and observation. Were it not for that I might actually have been a Buddhist convert as well, but I've seen things outside the system that contradict it.

@Soul: Oh...I'm not actually sure how to elaborate on that. But basically it's like "what if we found out this whole karma thing is just some unimaginably old, unimaginably powerful, incredibly evil being gaslighting us to make us keep reincarnating and suffering because it feeds on our pain?"

There's no way to prove or disprove that, because it's on a scale far too large for us to comprehend.

Alternatively, it could be "what if this karma thing is actually being maintained by someone that thinks it's some kind of God, but actually isn't, and it thinks it's doing justice but isn't really? What happens, then, if this being has its equivalent of a bad day and decides to drop us all into endless suffering or something?"

Again: no way to prove it or disprove it.

Thank you, KoE. This is all eerily familiar, although I don't know where from. That's what's shivering me, and why I want to hear more and more.

You also mentioned "what if it's not a who but a what?" Can you say more about that, please please and thank you kindly? I'm not looking for proof of anything - just what possibilities you were referring to.

 

[iwanttosleepforever]

yes he does, we have to stop suffering

 

[Soul]

If your going to die then going peacefully is preferred. I still think there is an extreme aversion and self hatred in most suicides. There is not really buddhist teachings on good suicides since its not condoned.

@Shamana, thank you so much for your fascinating posts. You and KoE are touching me deeply. Thank you.

 

[Alucard]

For my part, I do not forgive God for having created me. But he has an excuse : he does not exist ...

 

[ManWithNoName]

Personally, I am terrified about the idea that if one commits suicide, they will go to hell. I do not know why one would go to hell after they suffered so much on Earth though. It seems really unreasonable and unfair that only more pain awaits after death. But still, the question remains if God would forgive people like me.

I think this concern crosses the minds of almost everyone who is considering ctb. From the perspective of the Christian faith, and having spoken with bible scholars, pastors and priests, one does not go to hell.

Though I'm a Christian, I find many buddists beliefs very interesting, those that are congruent with Christ (some say he visited india but there has yet to be evidence to this)

The problem I have with "suicide is a sin" mantra is that how does one define a suicide? Obviously taking ones own life directly is suicide. But what about those who enjoy life but do tons of drugs and end up dead from an overdose? Or those who engage in high risks sports like skydiving or rock climbing? These are nebulas areas - what will the powers that be say should one pass from either of those two activities? "You went rock climbing, you know it's risky, the cable came loose and you have fallen to your death - that's suicide! Now you will reincarnate back to another miserable Human existence!"

See what I mean?

Many, if not most, consider the means of one's death to be the same - be it 'natural' or a intentional ctb.

 

[Jean Améry]

Ask him and you will find out. His book doesn't mention any prohibition in any case. It does mention 7 concrete suicides though and none in dissaproving terms.

The arrogance of those who think they can speak in the name of their supposed god is baffling. Especially in cases like this when the matter is clear (even by the very weak standard of 'biblical authority'). Nowhere does it say: 'thou shalt not commit suicide' or something to that extent.

Any rational person would think a divine lawgiver (being more perfect than any human by definition) would make his laws (especially trespasses, transgressions and prohibitions - a forteriori if the punishment could consist of eternal hell) very clear and specific. Especially when the commandments are aimed at fallible humans. When talking to small children adults generally use very simple language that cannot be misunderstood. Since god regards us as children I'd think he'd use the same methodology.

In law it's a firmly established principle that anything that isn't expressly forbidden is allowed. Unless god is deliberately vague and expects us to guess his intentions I'd think it's reasonable to conclude suicide isn't forbidden in this context.

Of course theologians and so called 'christian philosophers' are masters at manipulation and twisting the bible to fit their doctrines. They basically make them up as they go and given that the bible is so vague and contradictory virtually any position can be defended (black is white and vice versa) they'll always be able to claim the bible supports their position. As Shakespeare famously wrote even the devil can cite scripture for his purpose.

The catholic church claims suicide is a mortal sin: on whose authority I wonder. Except their own of course.

 

[ManWithNoName]

I'm surprised that you didn't say probably the most important thing for OP from the meditational perspective. That is we should have a peaceful death because a violent death can actually cause a birth into the hell realms.

George - but what about those ctb by jumping off a bridge or in front of a train or pistol to the mouth? These methods can put one in the hell realm?

 

[Chalken]

There is literally zero scientific evidence that any kind of god, or heaven, or hell exists. It's just something that religious nutcases made up a few thousand years ago because they needed something to believe in. Then again, one could say that there is zero evidence that god doesn't exist, but I raise you the question: if a god allowed so much suffering in this world, would he really be worth worshipping? I doubt it.

 

[LogicalConclusion]

My thoughts on this are very fragmented due to dissociative disorder and trauma, but I feel like maybe suicide just /is/. Like...I feel fairly certain there are infinite universes and possibilities and timelines (and have had some creepy experiences that make me wonder if I've jumped timelines somehow), so assuming this is true, some of the "you"s are going to commit suicide while some of "you" might live and even be happy. It feels beyond judgment to me.

As for some sort of god or creator...I feel that there very well could be one and that It/They wouldn't care what we call it because it's beyond our trivial distinctions of he/she/it/whatever, and I feel like things generally happen as they are meant to. Maybe I'm delusional (this is highly possible, I am very mentally ill) but lately I've been thinking that maybe I've done everything I'm meant to have done and this is the end and that's okay. And also I think intention matters. If someone is in agonizing pain all or most of the time then it would be cruel to sentence them to further torment. We torment ourselves enough.

Also I have been drawn to reading about NDEs lately and it's very comforting and from what I have read, assuming that most of the stories are true, overall people sound at peace before they come back. Idk, maybe all of this is dumb and I'm delusional, but I think it's just beyond our understanding and that the general rule is likely "do what feels right in your heart and logical mind." All we can do is our best, and sometimes that might be ctb.

 

[pleasethistime]

do i forgive God for my years of suffering for nothing? i dont even want heaven. just nonexistence without hurting people. is that too much to ask? haha. actually i dont give a fuck about religion anymore. living out of pity for mom until icant one day.

Goodness does not create.

 

[Sanguinius]

Haven't you heard about it? god is dead!
joke apart: probably, benzodiazepines would help you immediatly before ctb, if you decide to ctb... they might help you to overcome the fear just before, at least for me this was the most featful hours.

what makes you believe in he and in the idea he could judge the people?
probably, you could try to read the bible, exspecially the newer parts of jesus, to see that he is a god of forgiveness.
or, maybe it would help you to destroy the people who told you that kind of stuff with their own arguments to see there are at least no logical reason to believe so. In example, if they say on one hand jesus was/is absolutely good, and on another he eats animals or fishes and they can't tell you waht the difference in worth of an animal and a human, there's a logic error.

hope this was helpful.
personally, I don't believe in good nor bad. I don't believe in values.

 

[ManWithNoName]

If there is a God, I would think he would frown upon CTB. Put yourself in his shoes. He gives us the greatest possible gifts, that of self-awareness, life, and free will, and we just piss it away. Imagine buying your kid a cherry red Ferrari Testarossa and he took a sledge hammer to it. How would you feel about that? Would you just say, Oh well, it's your choice!

I hear what you're are saying, but God should also know that the Human condition is about suffering for the most part. Life aint a Ferrari Testarossa.

 

[Deathmandie]

If there is god you dont have to suicide

 

[ManWithNoName]

Karma does not work that way according to Buddha's teaching. If you commit a violent act with hatred that karma you receive back will be 7 or 8 fold. Similary if you are in a band of soldiers who commit killing, even if you do not kill "enemies"/civilians, but you support your fellow soldiers and do not try to stop them, then the karma you recieve in potentiated by number of humans killed and potentiated by the number of soldiers in the group. This is why it said that soldiers generally do not attain higher rebirths (human or higher). On a similar note intentionally injuring a buddha is said to cause instant rebirth hell as will murdering your parents.

Karma is not quite as simple as an eye for an eye.

If what you say about Karma is correct, then that sounds to me as unjust and unfair as a fire-and-brimstone Abrahamic God.

So what does one do if one is forcibly drafted into the army? Conscious Objector status as a soldier is no longer an option.

As another scenario, let's say, for example, America engages in an absolute unjust war for geopolitical purposes. And let's say the American civilians are supporting said war because they bought all the bullshit rhetoric / propaganda and think it is just because they were lied to. So you are saying those civilians are to receive the negative karma?

 

[Tally]

If there was a god and he punished suicide, would this actually be someone you would place any value in? It wouldn't for me