Venting New Moon: Victim Porn

[GideonVandaleur]

OP: Women are dangerously retarded for reading Twilight!

Also OP: I spent a week reading Twilight!

Seeking gets it. I don't know what's up with the rest of you.

 

[jandek]

Twilight and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race.

 

[Chinaski]

It was implied that a critical number of men are also clearly dangerously retarded based upon the state of the world. Are you happy now? If you people weren't so damn busy having a knee jerk reaction and hyper focusing on and being offended by a specific detail of the post long enough to read it carefully enough to understand the main point which I've already clarified several times now.....what was that about people not misunderstanding again? Because clearly it's being misunderstood or else no one would be offended right now. It's a joke rant people, it's kinda my thing, you don't have to read it if you don't want to.

It can't be argued from any reasonable standpoint that people have misunderstood the content of it or failed to meet you on your own assumed intellectual level to spot the nuance within. If you write a block of text criticising women specifically you can't then expect to be taken seriously when stating that the explicit criticism of women was also an implicit criticism of men, invisible to the naked eye of the unintelligent and unenlightened.

I also do get that the delivery is "your thing" but if beneath there was a vaguely serious point as you state it's probably not going to be made with any clarity when consistently adopting the character of, and borrowing antagonistic riffs from, edgy late-nineties stand-ups.

Nobody has misunderstood or over-reacted here, the responses to the post are not unreasonable given the content imo - and yes, nobody is compelled to read your post, but in order to assess whether or not a post is worth reading it has to be read in the first place.

 

[GideonVandaleur]

It can't be argued from any reasonable standpoint that people have misunderstood the content of it or failed to meet you on your own assumed intellectual level to spot the nuance within. If you write a block of text criticising women specifically you can't then expect to be taken seriously when stating that the explicit criticism of women was also an implicit criticism of men, invisible to the naked eye of the unintelligent and unenlightened.

I also do get that the delivery is "your thing" but if beneath there was a vaguely serious point as you state it's probably not going to be made with any clarity when consistently adopting the character of, and borrowing antagonistic riffs from, edgy late-nineties stand-ups.

Nobody has misunderstood or over-reacted here, the responses to the post are not unreasonable given the content imo - and yes, nobody is compelled to read your post, but in order to assess whether or not a post is worth reading it has to be read in the first place.

It can be argued from a reasonable standpoint that people have misunderstood the nuanced point when the original post directly stated that this was also a criticism of men "I'm not saying men are any better, I mean listen to me, I'm a fucking asshole! Plus, I'm an idiot! I let pop culture hurt my feelings; But then again, why shouldn't I? It turns people into fuckwits." It wasn't invisible, you missed it because you were blinded by your own knee jerk offended response. Everyone else in this thread understood where I was coming from save for you and WhiteRabbit. Hell even Sister of the Moon reacted to my post with love and she's a kind, intelligent, wonderful woman, and someone I consider a dear friend. She knew none of it was aimed at her. Your overintellectualized response dripping with holier than thou attitude doesn't make you sound nearly as smart as you think it does. I've stated multiple times already that this also applies to men so you need to recognize that you're criticism is misplaced/wrong and drop it.

 

[Chinaski]

It can be argued from a reasonable standpoint that people have misunderstood the nuanced point when the original post directly stated that this was also a criticism of men "I'm not saying men are any better, I mean listen to me, I'm a fucking asshole! Plus, I'm an idiot! I let pop culture hurt my feelings; But then again, why shouldn't I? It turns people into fuckwits." It wasn't invisible, you missed it because you were blinded by your own knee jerk offended response. Everyone else in this thread understood where I was coming from save for you and WhiteRabbit. Hell even Sister of the Moon reacted to my post with love and she's a kind, intelligent, wonderful woman, and someone I consider a dear friend. She knew none of it was aimed at her. Your overintellectualized response dripping with holier than thou attitude doesn't make you sound nearly as smart as you think it does. I've stated multiple times already that this also applies to men so you need to recognize that you're criticism is misplaced/wrong and drop it.

To reiterate, l read the post in full, the highlighted part does not dilute and diminish the preceding bullshit, nor was it only myself and White Rabbit who found it to be toe-curling.

I'm not sure why you're bringing Sister of the Moon into this, l mean yes your friend liked your post, I'm not sure how or why you see that as something important enough to shift opinion.

I'd be interested to know which parts of any of my posts you consider to be "overintellectualising". Given l generally communicate in a direct and concise manner without a needlessly bloated word count designed to obscure a flaccid, performative edginess within an ouroboros of self-serving literary pretension this seems a very peculiar observation, but to each their own l guess.

 

[GideonVandaleur]

To reiterate, l read the post in full, the highlighted part does not dilute and diminish the preceding bullshit, nor was it only myself and White Rabbit who found it to be toe-curling.

I'm not sure why you're bringing Sister of the Moon into this, l mean yes your friend liked your post, I'm not sure how or why you see that as something important enough to shift opinion.

I'd be interested to know which parts of any of my posts you consider to be "overintellectualising". Given l generally communicate in a direct and concise manner without a needlessly bloated word count designed to obscure a flaccid, performative edginess within an ouroboros of self-serving literary pretension this seems a very peculiar observation, but to each their own l guess.

Really? Still at this? Okay I'll play your silly game. The highlighted part does in fact "dilute and diminish the bullshit" as you so smugly put it because it shouldn't be that difficult for anyone of intellect to infer that every statement in that post is equally applicable to men. All anyone needed to do was substitute the word women for men i.e. womens magazine to mens magazine etc. in their mind as they read it and the post would still work. Is that really so difficult for you to do?! If you or anyone else for that matter reacted with toe curls it means by definition that you missed the point of the post. It wasn't an offensive post, it was simply pointing out the non controversial fact that everyone including me is full of shit to a more or less degree. If you're offended by that then it's only because your perception of my post is entirely flawed. That's your problem not mine. I'm only responsible for what I say not for what you understand because I have no control over other peoples inaccurate perceptions regarding reality. The post just so happened to be focused on women as an example and there's plenty of content on the internet that is almost entirely focused on criticizing men in very unfair ways without anyone batting an eye. Apparently, it's more socially acceptable for women to speak in such a manner about men, but as soon as a man does anything remotely similar talking about women in a fair way suddenly everyone's offended.

I mentioned Sister of the Moon because she's a woman and didn't react by being offended because she actually understood the post unlike you lot; And if a woman isn't offended then you have no reason to be offended either. Full fucking stop! Or is that concept also too difficult for you to grasp. Your over all tone in general in any post I've read of yours drips with overintellectualized smugness. So you criticizing my comedic tone, ranty as it may be, is rich coming from you and wreaks of hypocrisy. I'm sorry if I seem a bit hostile at the moment because you're really starting to test my patience. This will be my second time plainly asking you to drop it mate. I don't really know how to be any clearer.

 

[Chinaski]

Well, now l know why you prefer to post in character.

 

[SuicidallyCurious]

people like fantasy worlds

We've replaced the boring old Bible with stuff that makes pussies wet and dicks hard

 

[odradek]

I am mostly joke ranting but I'm also trying to make some kind of a point.

Well I think your point was lost in how you presented it. There are women hating men everywhere including here so people are rightly defensive as your language was pretty hateful and targeted. Your own defensiveness in being challenged makes your motives seem somewhat suspect imo. Your post is viewed by those who are not you as basically this:



This is a forum full of the suicidal after all... well mostly. Maybe don't die on on the hill of being edgy with misogyny if you have a larger point to make and perhaps people will respond to that. Or maybe your intention was to just piss off people in which case I'm sure you don't care about anything I've said here, rant on I suppose.

 

[LastLoveLetter]

It shouldn't be controversial here to point out that phrases such as "I think a critical number of women are dangerously retarded" are sexist, harmful and don't belong anywhere. They certainly don't belong on a suicide forum. It may be a joke rant, but it still reeks with sexism. There is more misogyny than actual criticism of Twilight.

Hostility and insults directed at those who highlight that do not change this fact.

 

[whatevs]

Twilight and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race.

Someone needs to send a letter bomb to the original editorial that picked up the series for printing. I have some spare time and a cabin in the woods, we'll see what can be done...

I might write an ecofascist manifesto while I'm at it.

@GideonVandaleur Regardless of everything else, what came to mind personally is... why rant about this now? Isn't Twilight a thing of the past? 'Retarded women' have moved on to new cultural products of mass consumption or fresh instances of infraculture.

 

[CrossroadsCurious]

 

[GentleJerk]

@whatevs actually I was wondering the same thing, but assumed maybe there was some new Twighlitage I wasn't aware of.

As for the obviously unbalanced and questionable OP... I know that, probably, we should all be vigilantly on guard against any speech or thought that exhibits even a trace of inflammatory/antagonistic qualities, and strive to call out and enlighten every poor soul on the internet who draws a picture that is anything less than 100% respectful, equal, and progressive. Educate those troglodytes and let em' know this is 2022 and the only group of people it's ever ok to give shit to are the Russians and communists!

But I guess I'm just a jerk who loves a good old fashioned roast. I can't help it. I enjoy it when men and women give each other shit, if they can manage to at least make it funny, then that's like offensive art to me. I know it's vulgar and very hit-or-miss, but I can appreciate it.

I also appreciate those who don't appreciate it, and feel the need to always be in a position to shoot it down on sight. I only hope those people don't lose the ability to laugh at these things too and let them roll off like water on a ducks back, should they ever be so inclined to put the gun down from time to time...

 

[odradek]

@whatevs actually I was wondering the same thing, but assumed maybe there was some new Twighlitage I wasn't aware of.

As for the obviously unbalanced and questionable OP... I know that, probably, we should all be vigilantly on guard against any speech or thought that exhibits even a trace of inflammatory/antagonistic qualities, and strive to call out and enlighten every poor soul on the internet who draws a picture that is anything less than 100% respectful, equal, and progressive. Educate those troglodytes and let em' know this is 2022 and the only group of people it's ever ok to give shit to are the Russians and communists!

But I guess I'm just a jerk who loves a good old fashioned roast. I can't help it. I enjoy it when men and women give each other shit, if they can manage to at least make it funny, then that's like offensive art to me. I know it's vulgar and very hit-or-miss, but I can appreciate it.

I also appreciate those who don't appreciate it, and feel the need to always be in a position to shoot it down on sight. I only hope those people don't lose the ability to laugh at these things too and let them roll off like water on a ducks back, should they ever be so inclined to put the gun down from time to time...

I think we have different definitions of "trace". There is a spectrum to this kind of humour I can't deny, however I feel like your missing the forest for the trees here. I not trying to educate "troglodytes" (your words), far from it. They would never listen to me anyway. I do have a sense of humour, I didn't find most of this particularly funny tbh. I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that language matters on a site entirety composed of text, or at least it should, not that we have to be serious all the time.

 

[whatevs]

To reiterate, l read the post in full, the highlighted part does not dilute and diminish the preceding bullshit, nor was it only myself and White Rabbit who found it to be toe-curling.

I'm not sure why you're bringing Sister of the Moon into this, l mean yes your friend liked your post, I'm not sure how or why you see that as something important enough to shift opinion.

I'd be interested to know which parts of any of my posts you consider to be "overintellectualising". Given l generally communicate in a direct and concise manner without a needlessly bloated word count designed to obscure a flaccid, performative edginess within an ouroboros of self-serving literary pretension this seems a very peculiar observation, but to each their own l guess.

At least half of Gideon's pretentious threads are engorged to a decent extent, and the rest are half stiff. Complete flaccidness hasn't occurred, thankfully.

Bibliography:

engorged penis

:warn: sorry if it's a offensive to any. Can the word engorged be used to describe an erected penis? opinions?

forum.wordreference.com

 

[WhiteRabbit]

@whatevs actually I was wondering the same thing, but assumed maybe there was some new Twighlitage I wasn't aware of.

As for the obviously unbalanced and questionable OP... I know that, probably, we should all be vigilantly on guard against any speech or thought that exhibits even a trace of inflammatory/antagonistic qualities, and strive to call out and enlighten every poor soul on the internet who draws a picture that is anything less than 100% respectful, equal, and progressive. Educate those troglodytes and let em' know this is 2022 and the only group of people it's ever ok to give shit to are the Russians and communists!

But I guess I'm just a jerk who loves a good old fashioned roast. I can't help it. I enjoy it when men and women give each other shit, if they can manage to at least make it funny, then that's like offensive art to me. I know it's vulgar and very hit-or-miss, but I can appreciate it.

I also appreciate those who don't appreciate it, and feel the need to always be in a position to shoot it down on sight. I only hope those people don't lose the ability to laugh at these things too and let them roll off like water on a ducks back, should they ever be so inclined to put the gun down from time to time...

I like a good witty roast as well, but this guys post just felt hateful. And for what? Some book that came out almost 20 years ago?

 

[whatevs]

I like a good witty roast as well, but this guys post just felt hateful. And for what? Some book that came out almost 20 years ago?

The movies are more recent, but it was a strange pick. Perhaps Gideon is a boomer or something and thinks Twilight is current. Personally Tik-Tok is where I'd put my misogyny to work but to each their own.

 

[GentleJerk]

@foxdieΩ Oh I'm aware it's more than a trace! I wasn't referring explicitly to the OP. Nor did I find it particularly funny either. Except for the 'your not a princess princess' part, that actually made me laugh. It's an Australian joke. I was surprised when I made my first comments to see how long it was taking for people to zero in and start to criticise. Usually it's pretty instant, relentless, and severe. Unless it's people talking about how jealous they are of lucky terminal cancer patients. One reason why I didn't bother to criticise whatsoever is because I knew it was coming. I expected it and welcome it.

 

[LastLoveLetter]

I like a good witty roast as well, but this guys post just felt hateful. And for what? Some book that came out almost 20 years ago?

Yeah, exactly. I'm not devoid of a sense of humour. I just don't find referring to women as "retarded" (also an unacceptable word choice), idiots and full of shit to be particularly funny.

And the members here who actually have made me laugh during my time here didn't lean on discriminatory comments under the guise of banter or wit.

As much as I appreciate that my sense of humour isn't representative of everyone else's, the content here came across as thinly veiled contempt.

 

[GentleJerk]

I honestly thought the OP would expect retaliation and criticism, so the fact that he seems upset by it is kind of strange tbh.

Oh well.

 

[WhiteRabbit]

the content here came across as thinly veiled contempt.

Bingo. If OP had put this on some incelsphere Reddit forum, it would have killed.

 

[GentleJerk]

Also, things don't always need to be funny for me to laugh at them.

 

[whatevs]

the content here came across as thinly veiled contempt.

I don't think the contempt was veiled in any way.

 

[GideonVandaleur]

This thread is still going?! This must be some kind of a record. Anyway, allow me to address some of the points that have been brought up.

Well I think your point was lost in how you presented it. There are women hating men everywhere including here so people are rightly defensive as your language was pretty hateful and targeted. Your own defensiveness in being challenged makes your motives seem somewhat suspect imo. Your post is viewed by those who are not you as basically this:

View attachment 92504

This is a forum full of the suicidal after all... well mostly. Maybe don't die on on the hill of being edgy with misogyny if you have a larger point to make and perhaps people will respond to that. Or maybe your intention was to just piss off people in which case I'm sure you don't care about anything I've said here, rant on I suppose.

The language was indeed strong yes but hateful? No because I specifically pointed out that, "I don't really hate women, I just think they're mostly completely full of shit; And they know it! But they think we don't know it; How full of shit is that? Women! We can see your magazines! We know you're idiots! How stupid do you think we are? Jesus Christ!" Or did you miss that part? I think you did. Plenty of smart people who've read my post or work in general aren't lost by my presentation. The only people lost are the badge carrying members of the tone police who have a habit of being so emotionally triggered by a single sentence that their brain shuts down and they ignore/can't process the rest of the post accurately and in context that would soften the blow of the initial statement if they let it. The intent wasn't to piss anyone off and I do care about your response on some level otherwise I wouldn't be responding would I? You're picture doesn't apply here in the slightest because I have no issue with intelligent criticism based on an accurate understanding of what I was really saying. What I do get irritated and lose my limited patience over is when I have to repeatedly point out over and over again how someone's criticism isn't accurate and it never sinks in. Especially when I ask them to drop it not once but twice and they just keep ploughing through. That doesn't make my intent suspect. And the people who view my post that way are being really superficial and missing the deeper non misogynistic message. Again if you flip a few phrases around as I keep point out you're supposed to do then the post is equally misandrist but you miss that part because your criticism is one sided, blind, and unfair. The truth is that it's neither misogynistic nor misandrist, it's more misanthropic really and if you read carefully enough it only has the thin veneer of misanthropy and underneath that is just disappointment and sadness at the state of pop culture and by extension humanity as a whole. But you missed all of that because you thought you detected the slightest bit of politically incorrect speech a good number of you decided to jump down my throat. Then you have the audacity to blame me for defending myself? Really?! The only one missing the forest through the trees is you.

Next!

It shouldn't be controversial here to point out that phrases such as "I think a critical number of women are dangerously retarded" are sexist, harmful and don't belong anywhere. They certainly don't belong on a suicide forum. It may be a joke rant, but it still reeks with sexism. There is more misogyny than actual criticism of Twilight.

Hostility and insults directed at those who highlight that do not change this fact.

If that phrase was standalone without further context then I agree that it can be construed as sexist etc. But the fact that you ignore that in my next breath I clearly state that the same statement applies to men by virtue of saying that I don't think men are any better changes the context and meaning of the original statement, it's easy to miss I know if you're too busy being offending right off the bat. The hostility and insults are directed at idiots who keep repeatedly insisting that I'm some sort of sexist pig based on one out of context sentence they've decided to pluck out to spin a narrative web of inaccuracy is not undeserved. You don't see me insulting anyone who actually grasped the intended message of my post, you only see me insulting people who are apparently lack the cognitive capacity, imagination, and nuance to interchange words like women to men in there heads as they read. Especially when there are clear hints in the og post that this wasn't intended to be sexist and that this equally applied to men. Got it? Good.

Moving on!

Someone needs to send a letter bomb to the original editorial that picked up the series for printing. I have some spare time and a cabin in the woods, we'll see what can be done...

I might write an ecofascist manifesto while I'm at it.

@GideonVandaleur Regardless of everything else, what came to mind personally is... why rant about this now? Isn't Twilight a thing of the past? 'Retarded women' have moved on to new cultural products of mass consumption or fresh instances of infraculture.

Two reasons. One: I had finally gotten around to witnessing the twilight phenomena first hand after many years of avoiding it out of some morbid curiosity. That was a mistake, instant regret just add water. Two: Twilight is just an example of the general phenomena, anyone reading this can easily substitute oh I don't know 50 shades of grey and the point of the post would still stand. If I had picked source as an example there will always be someone who whines about why that particular piece was chosen. Expecting me to list all sources as an example is a bit unrealistic don't you think? Also can confirm not a boomer, I'm not that old. Millennial last I checked.

Another one!

I like a good witty roast as well, but this guys post just felt hateful. And for what? Some book that came out almost 20 years ago?

You're right about one thing, I do hate idiots regardless of sex, gender, etc. But can anyone sensible really blame me for hating the very same idiots who have and continue to ruin everything they touch in this world? It's not a secret that I'm a bit unhinged, angry and bitter at the world. But I'm so hate filled to the point of evil. I'm a lonely farmer living in the middle of fucking no where specifically to avoid interacting with suburban fools who fill me with contempt due to their idiotic beliefs and behaviors. What exactly where you expecting stumbling into this post? A field of roses? Also I'm not an incel because I'm not a virgin and I'm actually MGTOW you sanctimonious ass hat!

Let's keep rolling.

Yeah, exactly. I'm not devoid of a sense of humour. I just don't find referring to women as "retarded" (also an unacceptable word choice), idiots and full of shit to be particularly funny.

And the members here who actually have made me laugh during my time here didn't lean on discriminatory comments under the guise of banter or wit.

As much as I appreciate that my sense of humour isn't representative of everyone else's, the content here came across as thinly veiled contempt.

Judging by your reaction, you are by definition devoid of a sense of humor, Also I don't care how politically incorrect the word retarded is I'm still using it. It's a prefect good word and only weaklings need to ban certain words. Need I refer you to the list of 7 words you can't say on TV by George Carlin? Or do you understand now that censorship of any kind serves no practical tangible purpose aside from making control freaks such as yourself feel good on the inside.

Last but not least,

I honestly thought the OP would expect retaliation and criticism, so the fact that he seems upset by it is kind of strange tbh.

Oh well.

Oh I always expect retaliation from every corner, but for those who wish to do so better be able to take it as well as they dish it out. So heed this warning. I am a flame war veteran both online as a keyboard warrior and offline in real personal discussions. I have never once shied away from telling people exactly what's on my mind. If your criticism is intelligent and fair then I will have no problem accepting it. If on the other hand you say something stupid then I will at first attempt to patiently explain myself to you. Once my patience runs thin be prepared for things to escalate and for the kid gloves, made from actual kids, to come off, figuratively speaking. Play stupid games with me win stupid prizes.

Are we done here? I can do this all day. Just kidding, I can't do this all day, I'm no Captain America.

 

[Chinaski]

I'm not reading all that.

 

[WhiteRabbit]

You're right about one thing, I do hate idiots regardless of sex, gender, etc. But can anyone sensible really blame me for hating the very same idiots who have and continue to ruin everything they touch in this world? It's not a secret that I'm a bit unhinged, angry and bitter at the world. But I'm so hate filled to the point of evil. I'm a lonely farmer living in the middle of fucking no where specifically to avoid interacting with suburban fools who fill me with contempt due to their idiotic beliefs and behaviors. What exactly where you expecting stumbling into this post? A field of roses? Also I'm not an incel because I'm not a virgin and I'm actually MGTOW you sanctimonious ass hat!

Misogynistic Ted Kaczynski vibes.

I've always considered r/MGTOW to be part of the larger incelsphere, even if they aren't the same thing.

 

[LastLoveLetter]

Trying to suggest that we simply fail to understand your incredibly nuanced posts and choose to cherry pick - when almost the entirety of your post is a description of how stupid women are - is insulting. Resorting to personal attacks doesn't help either. Misogyny disguised as comedy is not going to fly.

Your post certainly reads like an attack on us, no matter how you attempt to justify it or reframe it. Female members have enough bullshit to contend with, considering that there is no shortage of sexism to be found on here. I know I'm not the only woman here who actively avoids reading the vast majority of threads these days, as a result of regular exposure to hateful content.

It seems unlikely that this will be accepted or that you will understand where we're coming from, so this is the last comment I'll post on this thread. If multiple members are all raising the same concerns about your output, it could be an opportunity to consider that it could actually be offensive and inappropriate, rather than concluding that we're all humourless, lacking capacity and unimaginative.

 

[GideonVandaleur]

I'm not reading all that.

You're still here? Good, don't read it, you're not the intended audience anyway. Why do you feel the need to smugly point out that you're not going to read something, just don't read it. No one asked you to read it. Who are you trying to impress with your lack of capacity to read something?

Misogynistic Ted Kaczynski vibes.

I've always considered r/MGTOW to be part of the larger incelsphere, even if they aren't the same thing.

They're not even remotely related and you're a moron for thinking so. No wonder you didn't understand the OG post. You're also an incredible asshole for comparing me to Ted Kaczynski so casually. I'm nothing like him, now kindly fuck off.

 

[MellowAvenue]

The movies are more recent, but it was a strange pick.

The last movie still came out nearly a decade ago now… And now I feel even older than I already did.

 

[GideonVandaleur]

Trying to suggest that we simply fail to understand your incredibly nuanced posts and choose to cherry pick - when almost the entirety of your post is a description of how stupid women are - is insulting. Resorting to personal attacks doesn't help either. Misogyny disguised as comedy is not going to fly.

Your post certainly reads like an attack on us, no matter how you attempt to justify it or reframe it. Female members have enough bullshit to contend with, considering that there is no shortage of sexism to be found on here. I know I'm not the only woman here who actively avoids reading the vast majority of threads these days, as a result of regular exposure to hateful content.

It seems unlikely that this will be accepted or that you will understand where we're coming from, so this is the last comment I'll post on this thread. If multiple members are all raising the same concerns about your output, it could be an opportunity to consider that it could actually be offensive and inappropriate, rather than concluding that we're all humourless, lacking capacity and unimaginative.

Chinaski already made this facile argument and I shut them down for it. Again for the last fucking time women are just the example I happened to use. It's not an attack against women it's an attack at popular culture and it's aimed at everyone from both sexes. It's funny that you only zero in and take offense to the misogyny angle and have no problem with the misandry angle. If the post had used men as a primary example you would have had no issue with it because you and everyone else who complained are misandrist scum! How does that make you any better or less bitter/hateful than me?! I didn't want to call you out on it out of fairness and kindness but you've left me no choice because your skulls are 6 inches thick. When I say that you've misunderstood the point the post that is an undeniable fact evidenced tangibly by your reactions. How many times do you intend to go back and forth on this. The point is dead we've both stabbed it to death. Move the hell on! Go fruitlessly bother someone else.