A thorough story on Shawn Shatto

[Shamana]

And I can present you lots of thousands who find a pile of steaming poo apetizing. BUt nice pro-life propaganda.



The ones who are making life even harder for vulnerable people by taking their means to find peace and parading across the media to satisfy their need of protagonism.

It's not really propaganda. The typical SS member does not represent the general population. There are lots of people out there who are suffering. There are also lost who in general are doing fine.

 

[Ruffian]

It's not really propaganda. The typical SS member does not represent the general population. There are lots of people out there who are suffering. There are also lost who in general are doing fine.

If we do not represent the general population, how is that a motivation to press onwards? What is the endgame exactly?

"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather a skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, throughly used up, totally worn out, proclaiming, what a ride!" Hunter S. Thompson.

I put this quote in for a damn good reason. One, I love baseball so it's a great analogy. I can still skip past these last 5 years and look at times even 6 years ago that were hilarious and wonderful. But when I was young, man did I have FUN. I mean, I took my damn good time growing up, and it was possible to do that then. I always worked hard, but goddamn did I play hard. In my last few days on Earth I'm calling my best friend from high school to say goodbye. He is the only person IRL understands and will allow me to do so. After goodbye, I hope to spend the rest of our conversation recounting every crazy stunt we pulled in our youth. How we aren't dead already is amazing. Or that we didn't go to juvie jail. That is my "what a ride" time, as being young should be.

After that, I want to reflect on my years of self-reflection and alone time mountain climbing. I was alone so long I could tolerate loneliness after awhile. And I was a hot chick in my youth, (now I'm older hot chick) so I could have easily hooked up and started a family. But I did not want all my problems to interfere with a child's happiness. When do the young people here have time from their academic pressures or their 2 and 3 jobs to take long journeys or adventures anymore? You do realize many here are also physically suffering?

If I had the money, I would open a goddamn SS commune. My point is, everyone here needs to be taken very seriously about suicide, especially young people. Where is the fun now, exactly? Every minute has to be carefully landscaped so we look beautiful and our lives are awesome. When all there really is to life is love and work. And most people struggle with one or both. I don't know how many nights I spent hanging out where I forgot to wax my eyebrows, or my hair was a grease pit. But I didn't have to document every minute of my night like it was "everything." There was no need to present myself as some gorgeous diva indulging in Food Porn, or some other nonsense. Speaking of porn, if you hooked up with someone, sex was sex. There wasn't all this amazing, crazy porn out there to create unrealistic expectations about how amazing it is. Do you read? There's plenty of information on how difficult it is for young women to speak up about what they like after millions of views of women taking no time at all to warm up or get comfortable. And I'm not anti-porn, it's just another example of how distorted everything is now.


Good lord, did that go off the rails. Let me state for the record: I am NOT SAYING: Young people kill yourself now. I am saying what brings young people here is understandable from just a baseline view of their lives IMHO. Then I start PMing or moving past an initial dislike of someone posting and start to hear them. Cyber-bullying, people living with autism who can talk to us just fine but see no hope for the future, shit jobs for shit pay, lack of health care, cameras and phones everywhere so one slip up can be recorded for eternity. THAT all needs to be taken seriously. Where is the spontaneity and joy in life when you're always worried about the future, what you say, how you look, etc?

"Normal" friends (sort of, it's hard keeping up with people,) of mine are being prescribed anti-anxiety meds and some have started smoking weed. These are people who are financially secure and had wonderful families growing up, with wonderful children of their own. But they are worried all the time, and they can't put a finger on it. Their kids are worried.

So I'm not sure what your point is that we don't represent the "average" population? Your world view could be as completely dysfunctional as ours, but it's just that society co-signs on your bullshit, so you "fit in." In other words, sanctioned. Do you even see the posts where people are encouraged to seek help? Or that as a community we decided to grow and add a recovery forum? I'm so glad it's here, because it's people going to get get help and sharing about all the barriers that exist in getting real help. It isn't mindfulness and positive thinking and you're magically cured. My therapist told me recently that the new graduates doing therapy are really motivated, and their dedication makes up for their lack of experience. Maybe they will pave the way to true reform in mental health care, that's my hope.

We're not a bucket of crabs pulling down anyone who makes it to the top. I'm searching for the right words, and I only have one, LOVE. There's infighting and arguing here, there's snarkiness and pot-shots. But in some ways, we are a family, and a lot of people don't have that IRL.

What I do know is that it would be wonderful if we could all move forward and maybe judge and assume less? I don't know your situation, but again, I don't like being compared to the "average," person. My guess is most people here are above average, which more studies are showing is depressing in itself.


This isn't even really about Ms. Shatto or her mother anymore. This is a larger problem that could be the beginning of a more honest dialogue about suicide. It's hard to evaluate a situation involving a group of society's most stigmatized people, and a family immersed in such horrific grief. @Tortured_empath, I know I mentioned you a few times, but I respect your ability to view things from the mother's side of things. Even if I disagree with the crusade she's leading, how else could we expect her to act?

I know this post was long, but I hope I made some kind of sense to someone. If it ends up on FB, I really don't even want to know. I posted earlier I'm starting to feel ghoulish about monitoring this family's grief process. I don't care if they're making it everyone's business, I'd like to go back to minding my own.

 

[Shamana]

If we do not represent the general population, how is that a motivation to press onwards? What is the endgame exactly?

"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather a skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, throughly used up, totally worn out, proclaiming, what a ride!" Hunter S. Thompson.

I put this quote in for a damn good reason. One, I love baseball so it's a great analogy. I can still skip past these last 5 years and look at times even 6 years ago that were hilarious and wonderful. But when I was young, man did I have FUN. I mean, I took my damn good time growing up, and it was possible to do that then. I always worked hard, but goddamn did I play hard. In my last few days on Earth I'm calling my best friend from high school to say goodbye. He is the only person IRL understands and will allow me to do so. After goodbye, I hope to spend the rest of our conversation recounting every crazy stunt we pulled in our youth. How we aren't dead already is amazing. Or that we didn't go to juvie jail. That is my "what a ride" time, as being young should be.

After that, I want to reflect on my years of self-reflection and alone time mountain climbing. I was alone so long I could tolerate loneliness after awhile. And I was a hot chick in my youth, (now I'm older hot chick) so I could have easily hooked up and started a family. But I did not want all my problems to interfere with a child's happiness. When do the young people here have time from their academic pressures or their 2 and 3 jobs to take long journeys or adventures anymore? You do realize many here are also physically suffering?

If I had the money, I would open a goddamn SS commune. My point is, everyone here needs to be taken very seriously about suicide, especially young people. Where is the fun now, exactly? Every minute has to be carefully landscaped so we look beautiful and our lives are awesome. When all there really is to life is love and work. And most people struggle with one or both. I don't know how many nights I spent hanging out where I forgot to wax my eyebrows, or my hair was a grease pit. But I didn't have to document every minute of my night like it was "everything." There was no need to present myself as some gorgeous diva indulging in Food Porn, or some other nonsense. Speaking of porn, if you hooked up with someone, sex was sex. There wasn't all this amazing, crazy porn out there to create unrealistic expectations about how amazing it is. Do you read? There's plenty of information on how difficult it is for young women to speak up about what they like after millions of views of women taking no time at all to warm up or get comfortable. And I'm not anti-porn, it's just another example of how distorted everything is now.


Good lord, did that go off the rails. Let me state for the record: I am NOT SAYING: Young people kill yourself now. I am saying what brings young people here is understandable from just a baseline view of their lives IMHO. Then I start PMing or moving past an initial dislike of someone posting and start to hear them. Cyber-bullying, people living with autism who can talk to us just fine but see no hope for the future, shit jobs for shit pay, lack of health care, cameras and phones everywhere so one slip up can be recorded for eternity. THAT all needs to be taken seriously. Where is the spontaneity and joy in life when you're always worried about the future, what you say, how you look, etc?

"Normal" friends (sort of, it's hard keeping up with people,) of mine are being prescribed anti-anxiety meds and some have started smoking weed. These are people who are financially secure and had wonderful families growing up, with wonderful children of their own. But they are worried all the time, and they can't put a finger on it. Their kids are worried.

So I'm not sure what your point is that we don't represent the "average" population? Your world view could be as completely dysfunctional as ours, but it's just that society co-signs on your bullshit, so you "fit in." In other words, sanctioned. Do you even see the posts where people are encouraged to seek help? Or that as a community we decided to grow and add a recovery forum? I'm so glad it's here, because it's people going to get get help and sharing about all the barriers that exist in getting real help. It isn't mindfulness and positive thinking and you're magically cured. My therapist told me recently that the new graduates doing therapy are really motivated, and their dedication makes up for their lack of experience. Maybe they will pave the way to true reform in mental health care, that's my hope.

We're not a bucket of crabs pulling down anyone who makes it to the top. I'm searching for the right words, and I only have one, LOVE. There's infighting and arguing here, there's snarkiness and pot-shots. But in some ways, we are a family, and a lot of people don't have that IRL.

What I do know is that it would be wonderful if we could all move forward and maybe judge and assume less? I don't know your situation, but again, I don't like being compared to the "average," person. My guess is most people here are above average, which more studies are showing is depressing in itself.


This isn't even really about Ms. Shatto or her mother anymore. This is a larger problem that could be the beginning of a more honest dialogue about suicide. It's hard to evaluate a situation involving a group of society's most stigmatized people, and a family immersed in such horrific grief. @Tortured_empath, I know I mentioned you a few times, but I respect your ability to view things from the mother's side of things. Even if I disagree with the crusade she's leading, how else could we expect her to act?

I know this post was long, but I hope I made some kind of sense to someone. If it ends up on FB, I really don't even want to know. I posted earlier I'm starting to feel ghoulish about monitoring this family's grief process. I don't care if they're making it everyone's business, I'd like to go back to minding my own.

I'm sorry, I don't have the mental stamina to read the whole of this post properly. Not because there is anything wrong with it, I just can't maintain concentration.

 

[Ruffian]

I'm sorry, I don't have the mental stamina to read the whole of this post properly. Not because there is anything wrong with it, I just can't maintain concentration.

I know - sometimes I write stuff out and it's end up a shitstorm of stuff I needed to say just to myself. I need to start writing in journal again, not using SS as a dumping ground. If I remember my point was just that A. I'm sorry about the whole situation, B. People here are treatment-resistant and need to be considered on a case by case basis, i.e. we are way beyond being compared to even "average" people with mental health issues, and C. Maybe someday this situation will have helped people accept pro-choice more in the future. Oh, and Ms. Shatto was young, and young people here have opened up my eyes a lot to a lot of different issues I wouldn't have thought of otherwise. I think that needs to be considered when we discuss young people seeming to have so much to live for.

 

[Ruffian]

That is a good point honestly, I think this is happening a lot around here. I have some really horrible days mentally, where all I can think about is how other people are having great lives or at least far better than mine, and that I was screwed.

I can see where all these guys are coming from, but the horrible truth is we are a very small minority who have been royally fucked while others are having a great time.

Yes, the people here on SS are in a small minority in that we feel suicidal chronically, or we have at different times in life. I don't know if it's a coincidence, but in the last few months I worked with 2 young women and had some conversations with a young woman I know personally. They aren't officially diagnosed, but they're really, really depressed and anxious. About the stuff I mentioned. I can't imagine living with my parents past 20-21 just for starters. It's not wrong, it's just a complete bummer. I don't think everyone's having the great time they constantly present to others.

Too much money and time is spent on suicide prevention that only keeps people from committing the act. It does nothing to address the underlying causes that MAKE someone suicidal. Ive posted about this A LOT. I've literally gone bankrupt from paying for treatment and hold on to jobs by a thread sometimes. So It just saddens me that things seem to actually be getting worse for people that need more help than a med adjustment & 6 months of talk therapy.

 

[DepressionsAHo]

You have never been pro-choice. You believe in the option of suicide only to be granted within your very narrow little purview in which you think you have moral authority to dictate to others whether or not their suffering is worthy of suicide.
You are staunchly anti-choice and always have been. "Pro-choice" doesn't just mean you enjoy dictating what choices other people are allowed to make. It's the opposite of that.
"

"good reasons" according to *your preferences*, not theirs.
You couldn't be more anti-choice if you tried.

My damn browser wouldn't let me type it bit this one will. What I was trying to say when i quoted you was that you have called mine and many other peoples reasons for seeking death stupid and bull shit when no one was speaking to you in the first place. Not only did you do that, but you then attacked me again and tried to further engage in completely unnecessary aggression when I apologized to the op for replying to her cause i thought it was her attacking me not you. You attempted taunts and name calling because let me make this clear here
my weren't "good reasons" to YOU.
You dont get to come here and act like you're some moral God. Especially with this under your belt. I don't care if your friend gave you drugs that made you act like an asshole and it justjust then wore off. I haven't said anything until now cause I wish for no arguments but that statement coming from you is the biggest load of bull shit I've ever seen.

sorry for frequent ggrammatical errors. This phone is bull shit too and fuck editing

 

[Meretlein]

Would you like to meet my nephews and explain to me why bringing them into the world was evil and twisted. Would you like to explain why bringing me into the world was evil and twisted?

Most people in the world are in fact living. Most of them don't have a death wish.

Have you heard of "Better Never to Have Been" by David Benatar. While I don't believe procreation to be vile and twisted it is certainly selfish.

"Bringing people into existence as well as failing to bring people into existence can be regretted. However, only bringing people into existence can be regretted for the sake of the person whose existence was contingent on our decision. This is not because those who are not brought into existence are indeterminate. Instead it is because they never exist. We can regret, for the sake of an indeterminate but existent person that a benefit was not bestowed on him or her, but we cannot regret, for the sake of somebody who never exists and thus cannot thereby be deprived, a good that this never existent person never experiences. One might grieve about not having had children, but not because the children that one could have had have been deprived of existence. Remorse about not having children is remorse for ourselves—sorrow about having missed childbearing and child-rearing experiences. However, we do regret having brought into existence a child with an unhappy life, and we regret it for the child's sake, even if also for our own sakes. The reason why we do not lament our failure to bring somebody into existence is because absent pleasures are not bad."
-David Benatar

The presence of pain is always bad and the absence of pain is always good but the absence of pleasure is only bad if there is someone able to feel deprived of it.

 

[Shamana]

Have you heard of "Better Never to Have Been" by David Benatar. While I don't believe procreation to be vile and twisted it is certainly selfish.

"Bringing people into existence as well as failing to bring people into existence can be regretted. However, only bringing people into existence can be regretted for the sake of the person whose existence was contingent on our decision. This is not because those who are not brought into existence are indeterminate. Instead it is because they never exist. We can regret, for the sake of an indeterminate but existent person that a benefit was not bestowed on him or her, but we cannot regret, for the sake of somebody who never exists and thus cannot thereby be deprived, a good that this never existent person never experiences. One might grieve about not having had children, but not because the children that one could have had have been deprived of existence. Remorse about not having children is remorse for ourselves—sorrow about having missed childbearing and child-rearing experiences. However, we do regret having brought into existence a child with an unhappy life, and we regret it for the child's sake, even if also for our own sakes. The reason why we do not lament our failure to bring somebody into existence is because absent pleasures are not bad."
-David Benatar

The presence of pain is always bad and the absence of pain is always good but the absence of pleasure is only bad if there is someone able to feel deprived of it.

I don't think it's selfish to have children if you have the quality and rescources to be a good parent. But sure there can be selfish motives at play, but I don't believe selfishness permeates the whole thing in most or all cases.

As one of the few one here, I'm a believing buddhist though. Which means that I believe that our individual mindstreams are constantly reborn/reincarnate as long as we generate karma. Not just in this world, but other worlds and not just in this universe, but in infinite universes. Which for me adds another perspective, but I don't expect other people to share it.

I would for sure agree that the world would a lot better place if only people qualified to be good parents had kids.

 

[Meretlein]

I don't think it's selfish to have children if you have the quality and rescources to be a good parent. But sure there can be selfish motives at play, but I don't believe selfishness permeates the whole thing in most or all cases.

As one of the few one here, I'm a believing buddhist though. Which means that I believe that our individual mindstreams are constantly reborn/reincarnate as long as we generate karma. Not just in this world, but other worlds and not just in this universe, but in infinite universes. Which for me adds another perspective, but I don't expect other people to share it.

I would for sure agree that the world would a lot better place if only people qualified to be good parents had kids.

I know you're a Buddhist which changes things. I just wanted to show you there is some logic in what Alchemist said even if he was not saying it in a way I would.

 

[omoidarui]

Like I said on another thread last week

"Shatto Mère and her state rep are trying to pass "Shawny's Law", legislation to make sites like this one illegal because they give information on suicide - or at least give someone a peaceful means to do so. Fighting for something to curb people's rightful choice is one thing but assigning their daughter's name this 'legacy' as if she'd be happy about it... I hate to think as Shawn's looking down how hard she must be cringing rn goddam"

do the rules need to be changed in regards to this? then again we already have a Recovery board which plainly demonstrates we believe in hope and any member who encourages suicide is warned, so beyond obeying the law which this site does already i think we're gd !

 

[Bea]

i hate to sound callous, but i would love the "instructions" Shawn received because my plan has been a gun in my mouth. and this site has nothing to do with any of it. except for support from people who understand suicidal thinking and a place to vent. meanwhile, Shawn is at peace. i do hope her family finds peace, as well.

 

[Stan]

Shatto Mère and her state rep are trying to pass "Shawny's Law", legislation to make sites like this one illegal because they give information on suicide - or at least give someone a peaceful means to do so. Fighting for something to curb people's rightful choice is one thing but assigning their daughter's name this 'legacy' as if she'd be happy about it... I hate to think as Shawn's looking down how hard she must be cringing rn goddam"

do the rules need to be changed in regards to this? then again we already have a Recovery board which plainly demonstrates we believe in hope and any member who encourages suicide is warned, so beyond obeying the law which this site does already i think we're gd !

Be very hard to actually follow through on that law. If the server the site resides on is not in the US then I can't see how they can do anything

i hate to sound callous, but can i get the instructions she got? i need to look into SN,

SN megathread

 

[Meretlein]

Like I said on another thread last week

"Shatto Mère and her state rep are trying to pass "Shawny's Law", legislation to make sites like this one illegal because they give information on suicide - or at least give someone a peaceful means to do so. Fighting for something to curb people's rightful choice is one thing but assigning their daughter's name this 'legacy' as if she'd be happy about it... I hate to think as Shawn's looking down how hard she must be cringing rn goddam"

do the rules need to be changed in regards to this? then again we already have a Recovery board which plainly demonstrates we believe in hope and any member who encourages suicide is warned, so beyond obeying the law which this site does already i think we're gd !

Just watching her parents act like this is giving me second hand embarrassment

 

[Shamana]

Just watching her parents act like this is giving me second hand embarrassment

I'm quite symphathetic to this. You have to look at from a parent's pov who's lost a child to suicide. Calling it Shawn's law seems a bit over the top though. But a forum like this is really fucked up for anyone to witness if they are not in a similar situation themselves.

 

[omoidarui]

Be very hard to actually follow through on that law. If the server the site resides on is not in the US then I can't see how they can do anything

Good point but I was just wondering if it applied to Pennsylvanian users even though the site itself is based abroad - otherwise what would the point of this law be if there was such an easy loophole

Calling it Shawn's law seems a bit over the top though.

i would be turning in my grave if my parents made a legacy i don't believe in, in my name, when i'm gone

 

[Roger]

As I read it, from this side of the Pond, a Bill has been proposed in the state of Pennsylvania to increase sentences for offences which already exist.

No new law, as such.

 

[Meretlein]

I'm quite symphathetic to this. You have to look at from a parent's pov who's lost a child to suicide. Calling it Shawn's law seems a bit over the top though. But a forum like this is really fucked up for anyone to witness if they are not in a similar situation themselves.

I do have some understanding. But I would be horrified if my parents were doing this with me. They refer to her as someone with no agency, power, or will of her own.

 

[Rachel74]

I can see both sides of this, the mother wants someone to blame so she blames this site, no parent will blame themselves and feel vindicated when they have someone else to blame.
Not everyone on here is going to commit suicide this is also a support group.

 

[woxihuanni]

When you stand at the brink of your death, shinkery only pushes you over the edge by denying you have control over anything. All your feelings are invalid, you are only allowed to feel so much. The only way a suicidal person can even have a fighting chance at life is if they can safely do it if they truly wish so.

I wonder how many people die not because they are miserable, but deep down they have enough honour such that wrenching their rightful feelings from their hearts forcefully again and again simply leaves no way to have dignity in themselves but for dying.

 

[Soul]

When you stand at the brink of your death, shinkery only pushes you over the edge by denying you have control over anything. All your feelings are invalid, you are only allowed to feel so much. The only way a suicidal person can even have a fighting chance at life is if they can safely do it if they truly wish so.

Sorry my dear - what is shinkery?

 

[woxihuanni]

Sorry my dear - what is shinkery?

MH service industry/religion.

 

[omoidarui]

I wonder how many people die not because they are miserable, but deep down they have enough honour such that wrenching their rightful feelings from their hearts forcefully again and again

shinkery

that an ounce of sense did not make

 

[epic]

I sympathize with her daughters death.
But her assertion that this site encourages suicide is not true at all-
This site allows people to be vulnerable.All the posts I have come across always try to encourage people to find a constructive way out of their problems.Be it mental/health issues or relationships.There is also a recovery section if anyone wants to come out of their suicidal thoughts.Anyone (and I have seen no one) who encourages suicide is banned according to the rules.The site provides information on killing yourself and its the last of the last resorts.Which is in accordance with its pro-choice viewpoint.
Also the words like, "Safe journey" are heartfelt parting words meant for comfort,that the person will be missed.In no ways can that be interpreted as encouraging suicide.

 

[epic]

There are also members here who think that living is merely preserving life.

If this forum was not present they would be feeling the same way anyway. In fact they can express their feelings here and get some words of support.

 

[woxihuanni]

If this forum was not present they would be feeling the same way anyway. In fact they can express their feelings here and get some words of support.

Not even the same way, they would be feeling MORE entrapped and invalidated so that it wouldn't even be a feeling of preserving life but enduring imprisonment.

 

[epic]

The relevant posts in the topic have been removed. Just went looking for it.

There you go. So the post was removed...

 

[woxihuanni]

The relevant posts in the topic have been removed. Just went looking for it.

But the whole attitude that death=peace

Leads to well, a certain culture.

It's incredible how even child-rape cultures are respected nowadays (Oh but it's their religion :/) but this one is so offensive? It is a simple fact that if you don't exist, you cannot suffer. Accepting that makes it possible to freely decide whether you'd hang on and fight to get what you want out of life instead. It is a choice.

 

[epic]

Death=Peace is a separate debate.In some cases it truly is.The matter has subjective morality.
Anyways the forum is pro choice.It doesnt say Death=Peace nor does it say Death ~= Peace.The forum cannot be held responsible for something it doesnt encourage or discourage.

 

[Shamana]

It's incredible how even child-rape cultures are respected nowadays (Oh but it's their religion :/) but this one is so offensive? It is a simple fact that if you don't exist, you cannot suffer. Accepting that makes it possible to freely decide whether you'd hang on and fight to get what you want out of life instead. It is a choice.

I'm not really aware of child-rape cultures being respected?

 

[woxihuanni]

I'm not really aware of child-rape cultures being respected?

I'm not going to give a crash course on some religion.