Discussion Which sounds better to you and why?

[marcy2022]

I almost have everything for a few methods. A few of those are well know ctb methods and some not so much.
I'm having doubts cuz of inacurate research data and complications which makes it difficult for me to choose one over the other.
I know I've to choose this myself but I just thought to ask what another person would do given the same information and access to things.


I have SN 100g and all necessary pills to go with it except benzos (I tried getting benzos with no luck but I might try again)

I have thiopental 30g and anti-emetics. Can go both oral or IV route (still have to test cannula setup and run some trials with IV)

I have vecuronium bromide 60mg. (this isn't that well know ctb method. its used in lethtal injections, euthnesia along with anesthetic such as thiopental. Also used in surgeries to paralyze patients for the duration)


SN
48 hour fasting and anti-emetic regime or 3x10mg metocloprmide and 8mg ondansetron 40 minutes before
esomeptizole 80mg (same time as meto)
propranolol 400mg to potentiate (probably same time as meto)
diazepam or lorazepam (don't have but I can try to acquire them, idk if I'll be successful)
25g SN in 50ml water
Possibly have another 25g SN in 50ml water prepared as a backup drink
I'm scared of vomiting as its said way too many times in online documents and also here that regardless of anti-emetics the chances of vomiting are 50%. After vomiting, some suggests to abort, while there's another suggestion of taking another drink. I think if one vomits after taking SN, the drugs taken before, maybe they vomit those out too and then taking another drink of SN might make things painful or unpredictable to say the least. Stopping after vomiting could still complicate things where one maybe in so much pain or other physical or mental conditions requiring a visit to hospital. I for one would like to avoid hospitals as if its a plague (I've bad memories from failed attempts using another method). Even after all of that SN does sound promising to me considering the SN itself is reliable however the vomiting and complications which may arise following vomiting scares me and puts me in doubt. Also not having benzos is something to consider but I guess it can be done without. I would if one could vomit while being asleep under the effect of benzos and that would complicate things. I'm concerned about the vomiting part and complications associated with it.

Thiopental
Oral (probably won't go for oral route this time around)
3x10mg metocloprmide 40 minutes before
1-3g phenytoin sodium mixed with thiopental drink
30g thiopental in 150ml water
IV route (if cannula works without complications)
3x10mg metocloprmide 40 minutes before (maybe or not)
1-3g phenytoin sodium mixed with thiopental in the IV solution (maybe or not)
30g thiopental mixed in 150ml 0.9% Sodium Chloride/NS/normal saline
I've tried oral theoptal of almost 20g before with 48 hour fasting and anti-emetic regime and I was found around 8 hours later. No idea what went wrong but somehow I'm still here. This time I've 30g and probably can get more. I'm thinking to try intravenous route this time given that I manage to learn to setup the cannula properly or get a cannula from a hospital with a fake excuse, which is doubtful. If I manage to get the cannula going there's still the matter the cannula itself getting dislodged or IV tubing getting blocked by involuntary physical movements while unconscious. I've read a few online articles which suggests that there's intense pain involved with thiopental injection which some patients described as "burning sensation" and there's reports of involuntary withdrawal movements of the arm where the cannula is located. Itss also said there's chances of involuntary muscle movements while one is unconscious. I fear this could happen and complicate things where maybe the IV tubing gets blocked while half the solution still is in the IV bag or maybe the cannula gets dislodged and the fluid isn't being delivered. Fear of failure with oral route cuz of bad previous experience and IV route with its complications of burning pain sensations, possible cannula and tubing sensations scares me. It sounds like a good method provided everything works but the complications worries me.

Vecuronium Bromide
vecuronium bromide 60mg mixed in 30ml 0.9% Sodium Chloride/NS/normal saline
Vecuronium paralyzes a person, full body paralysis. The way this works is by paralysis of whole body including diaphragm. With diaphragm paralysis breathing is suspended or gets the point of almost nonexistent. In surgeries patients are put into ventilation when vecuronium is induced. In this method one suffocates to death. Suffocation/asphyxiation takes around 10 minutes for an average person do die. In lethal injection protocols usually 20mg vecuronium is given after induction of anesthetic agents so one is unconscious when they receive the paralytic agent followed by another substance which disables the heart. Doing all 3 steps without proper equipment by oneself is almost impossible so I thought to try vecuronium and thiopental. The problem here is that they can't be mixed as it causes precipitation (simply put if that happens either one or both drugs might be ineffective and/or may result in further complications). Both of these drugs given at at clinically suggested dosage would still put one to sleep or paralysis in a sort period of time depending on which is administered first. If thiopental is administered first then there's a high chance of one falling unconscious before vecuronium or if vecuronium is administered first then one might get paralyzed before administration of thiopental. Also its suggested in a number of medical guidelines to flush the IV lines/cannula with saline solution to avoid precipitation. There's also suggestion of injecting each drug in a different arm followed by saline flush to avoid precipitation. So the risk of precipitation is there and it should be given priority. That made me think vecuronium by itself should work as a single drug solution as it results in paralysis of diaphragm which will result in asphyxiation. During suffocation first stage is body craving air, next is feeling discomfort because of the lack of air followed by apnea but maybe its irrelevant as diaphragm is already paralyzed and therefore breathing has already stopped followed by increased heart rate, vasoconstriction, increased respiratory rate, Cerebral ischemia, Cardiac failure, etc., ultimately leading to death. One good thing about asphyxiation is that one should lose consciousness soon enough after the initial discomfort of not getting enough air. I suppose I won't be awake through the whole 10 minutes or however long it takes. One thing to note here is that medical journals suggests the same "burning" sensation of pain when vecuronium injection is being administered and same involuntary withdrawal of the arm. However if its vecuronium only and the dosage is 60mg/30ml, its not that much maybe I can manage with a syringe and large needle or something like 18g cannula, it should take around 20 seconds to deliver the whole 30ml solution. Also if I'm not mistaken, even a low dosage of 20mg, it should be sufficient enough for diaphragm paralysis but I'm just going with a stronger dosage cuz why not. As for the discomfort before losing consciousness, maybe I can deal with it. I mean there's already the part of "burning" sensation of pain while the drug is injected. I'm not sure how to deal with this burning sensation part.

I've thought about taking a small dosage (not sure how much) of oral or intravenous thiopental and SN but then I feel like it only adds another thing that I may vomit or if intravenous thiopental, vomit while being unconscious maybe idk. Not travenous thiopental is really fast and the likelyhood of being unconscious before the drink maybe quite high.
Perhaps something similar can also be considered with small dosage of oral of intravenous thiopental and after a little bit (maybe a min with saline flush if taking intravenous route of administration for thiopental) vecuronium can be administered. For oral thiopental, I couldn't find any information regarding how oral thiopental interacts with vecuronium and there's risk of precipitation somehow. This also has the same level of uncertainty where thiopental being really fast, falling unconscious before the administration of vecuronium is a possibility.

I know some methods maybe considered horrible to some people. However almost every method involves some pain, panic, discomfort, physical or mental distress. How one perceives such conditions are largely subjective to individuals. Given the information above what would you choose?

 

[jodes2]

I'd choose SN because it's better documented here. And I don't want to mess with IV s and cannulas and stuff if I can possibly avoid it

 

[bigsadbean]

So.. if I had all of these and had to choose for myself, I would use the SN.

I'm squeamish around needles and don't like the idea of something that paralyzes me. I would be worried about ending up permanently paralyzed but not dead. SN seems pretty effective and I've even read about people dying from it accidentally while trying a test dosage. I'm really annoyed that I can't get in the US anymore.

 

[k1w1]

Yup. SN only because it has a method which shows positive results. Replicating lethal injection was a helluva brave thing to shoot for but syringes dont replave cannulas and drips. We used to use butterflys, or winged infusion sets. Theyre fairly straightforward and available at needle exchange programs. That would be an unusual visit if you have not been in one before but they carry a surprising amount of gear. Best.

 

[marcy2022]

Like everyone else ofcourse ideally I too prefer to got the least painful and complicated method. However due to access, legality and factors like everyone else my choices are limited. I'm okay with needles or pain from them but I feel like the thiopental or vecuronium at the dosage and the concentration that I've found leaves a lot of space for something to go awry, specially findings in medical journals which reports of burning pain at medically recommended dosage makes me think at the high concentration I'll be using them would be really really painful which maybe specially true for thiopental. Then there's also possibilities of complication such as falling unconscious or being paralyzed before the whole solution is administered. And even to get to that I still have to get the cannula placement right and everything else. This is not to say SN is the method, there's still the matter of pain and not having enough benzos for my SN plan, not knowing how long it would take for whichever benzo I'll be using and at which dosage leaves SN plan incomplete too. Then there's the huge matter of vomiting with SN which essentially could ruin things.

And there's a big chance that if I fail one or the other method, I'll lose access to everything else that. So I'm trying to figure out which one is most likely to work for me while also considering should I fail, maybe I can keep some of the stuff for future.
Sigh! this is so difficult. I just want peace

 

[letsmakeitagoodworl]

I'm not sure what country your in but I use both benzos and z drugs for sleep (on different nights), zopiclone is a very claming medication but if your not used to it it can make you very disoriented, forgetful confused etc, however it's a heck of a lot easier to get in my country and you lose alot of the confusion & forgetfulness but keep the anxiety easing properties after a bit
Just my experience, I prefer zop to benzos for calming

 

[tokapi]

OP, do you have a source on the 50% vomiting probability on SN? That seems high...

 

[makethepainstop]

SN for this boy! Quick easy and effective! GO TEAM!

 

[marcy2022]

OP, do you have a source on the 50% vomiting probability on SN? That seems high...

No and I probably shouldn't have said 50% chance of vomiting. Its not an exact science and I don;t think there's been proper controlled medical trials regarind vomiting with anti-emetics and SN. Its said that SN has a strong taste and may result in gag reflex and even after swallowing one could vomit. If I'm not mistaken even in ppeh or stan's guide and the SN megathread here its been mentioned numerous times that just because one takes anti-emetics doesn't mean they'll not vomit. Anti-emetic may help but the probablity of vomiting is still there. Chance and probablity are different which is why my its my thinking that regardless of the presence of anti-emetics or not, either one vomits or not. And thats pretty much the only complication with SN method provided if everything is done right and not found. Vomit also can result in further complications where one didn't vomit all of it and maybe there's pain or discomfort which maybe too much for some people. Some may seek medical assistance and once that happens medical professionals may notice SN poisoning and bad unwated things may follow afterwards. The way I see it, vomit is in the center of it and if there was no possiblity of vomit it would probably be a even better choice than N. This is not to discourage anyone but only my thoughts. I wish I could do something about the vomiting. That is why I'm still trying to decide whether to go for SN or another method.

 

[Jason Steele]

SN is the simplest as of now.

 

[locked*n*loaded]

You sound like a very intelligent person. Surely, with such intelligence it isn't beyond conception that you could devise a device to automatically inject the thiopental and vecuronium in the order you choose at the interval you choose. Some type of a small, pneumatic, linear cylinder with some modest controls comes to mind.

 

[Sunset Limited]

Another way to Thiopental. If I wanted to infuse thiopental, put 10 grams of thiopental in 500 cc of 0.9 saline. That's 20mg/ml. At a concentration low enough not to irritate the vein when infused. A single IV access is enough to infuse. 2 or 3 infusion sets to IV bag if available. Connect the infusion sets to the triple vein valve. So, even if flow stops in one infusion line, it continues in the others. That means 7-8 cc/min flow rate so 150 mg/min. That's my plan with propofol at hotel room but ı will use 2 x IV access.

 

[marcy2022]

Another way to Thiopental. If I wanted to infuse thiopental, put 10 grams of thiopental in 500 cc of 0.9 saline. That's 20mg/ml. At a concentration low enough not to irritate the vein when infused. A single IV access is enough to infuse. 2 or 3 infusion sets to IV bag if available. Connect the infusion sets to the triple vein valve. So, even if flow stops in one infusion line, it continues in the others. That means 7-8 cc/min flow rate so 150 mg/min. That's my plan with propofol at hotel room but ı will use 2 x IV access.

20mg/ml isn't it much lower than the dosage of other pentobarbitals used for euthnesia in both people and animals? Nembutal is around 50mg/ml and Fatal-plus is around 390mg/ml.

IV flow rate, does it not also depend on cannula gauge? Or do you mean to set the IV flow controller in a precise way based on drop per min to make it so?

If I'm not mistaken the concentration of the dosage matters. The problem is all the IV bags I can find have one spike port. I don't know how to connect 3 or even 2 infusion sets to one IV bag. Perhaps something like this may work:



Without the infusion devices cuz I don't have access too those and it would be too expensive.
Maybe 3 x IV bags of 100cc, each mixed with 3.3g thiopental. Here the concentration will be a little more at 33.3mg/ml. 7-8 cc/min is the flow rate should result in 250 mg/min

Or alternatively use 2 x 500cc IV bags and empty them until 250cc is left on each IV bag. Mix each 250ml with 5g thiopental, where the conceentration will be 40mg/ml and connecting both into the same cannula at IV port and the injection port should work, no? What'll be the flow rate here?
This may noy require multi vein valve connectors but I could be mistaken while losting the 3rd IV line and at a stronger dosage per min.

Regardless thiopental or vecuronium, anything intravenous requires IV access and I've yet to get it done right. I'll try again today and hopefully that'll work.
For IV access/cannula setup, if I can get the cannula in the vein but screw up when it goes all the way into the vein, can I just leave it like that where some part of the cannula needle is in the vein and rest of it is outside and I just tape it in? Or is it too risky?

 

[freedomcalls]

I'd 100% go with SN

The risk of vomiting seems to me much lesser than the risks associated with your other options
There seem to have been a lot of SN posts here recently that seem to have been effective

 

[marcy2022]

I'd 100% go with SN

The risk of vomiting seems to me much lesser than the risks associated with your other options
There seem to have been a lot of SN posts here recently that seem to have been effective

I tried setting up cannula yesterday and failed, will try again today. If I can't get it done by myself and can't get with fake excuse from a medical professionals I guess I'll probably go for SN.

 

[Sunset Limited]

If you increase the drug concentration, the risk of irritation increases. 20 mg/ml is not low because thiopental is not easily eliminated. The plasma concentration continues to increase. 7-8 cc/min is the rate I got from my flow rate test. I used 22g blue cannula. When you connect 3 infusion sets to the same IV bag, even if one of them stops flowing, the others continue and eventually all the liquid in the bag runs out. When you use 3 serum bags, if one of them stops flowing, that serum bag becomes useless. That's why I connect 3 IV lines to an IV bag. You cannot connect an IV line to the injection port. I don't know if there is an adapter for this.

 

[marcy2022]

If you increase the drug concentration, the risk of irritation increases. 20 mg/ml is not low because thiopental is not easily eliminated. The plasma concentration continues to increase. 7-8 cc/min is the rate I got from my flow rate test. I used 22g blue cannula. When you connect 3 infusion sets to the same IV bag, even if one of them stops flowing, the others continue and eventually all the liquid in the bag runs out. When you use 3 serum bags, if one of them stops flowing, that serum bag becomes useless. That's why I connect 3 IV lines to an IV bag. You cannot connect an IV line to the injection port. I don't know if there is an adapter for this.

Thanks! That's very informative. Actually a good point about not using multiple bags.
When you used 22g blue cannula, did you have the IV flow controller open all the way?
What did you say when buying the IV multi connector or what would be an ideal excuse if you were to buy again? (I was think science experiment but idk, some people could get suspicious or curious and no one wants that)

I just tried to setup cannula again and this time it worked for a little bit. Pretty sure it was in the vein but at first when I tried to use saline flush it wasn't working. So I moved the cannula a bit outside and it was working. I managed to do little bit of saline flush (I felt the cold fluid in my veins) and draw blood with regular luer lock syringe. Based on the videos I've watched if I'm not mistaken I did it correctly this time. Then I thought to try IV with full setup with saline only and after priming the IV as I connected it to the cannula, for whatever reasons it wasn't working (the air vent cap kept falling off instead of opening but I did manage to put it back and prime the IV bag with the cap closed but then when the IV wasn't working I tried opening the cap and still didn't work. Even when I squeezed the IV bag for it to start flowing, there were few drips but I didn't feel anything in my veins). I tried moving the cannula back and forth but it wasn't working. Then I thought to try saline flush again (but this time with a non luer lock syringe) and It wasn't working either. So I stopped for now. I'm not sure what happened? Why did it work and then stop working? Could it be that I was using my toes press down on the IV needle so blood doesn't spill when trying to connect IV line to the cannula. I did the same when connecting the luer lock syringe to the cannula, could it be that I did something wrong there and using my toes to put pressure on the IV needle wasn't the best idea? Idk but any idea what happened

How do you deal with this problem? Prevent blood flow when connecting a syringe or IV line to the cannula? I mean I only have one hand free and the cannula is at the dorsum of the other arm. would a makeshift tourniquet with IV tubing work to put pressure on the needle inside the veins?

Any idea how to heal the cannula needle bruising fast? I feel like I have some practicing to do and I can only do so much on one arm. While other arm being dominant, I may not be able to do it properly using non dominant arm to insert needles and setting everything up properly.