Things That Should Be Tried Prior to Considering a Suicide Attempt

[Eudaimonic]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand why you posted this here instead of the recovery section. You're not going to convince prolifers that actually this site is fine because it tells people they should try harder before killing themselves. I guarantee that the vast majority of people outside of this site would disagree with that claim because of something along the lines of "no one should ever kill themselves because even with a miniscule 0.01% chance of things ever improving there's still hope" and "but think of your loved ones."

This post is frustratingly gatekeep-y (especially the suggestion that 18–20-year-olds should stay off the site until then, as if this would even achieve anything in the way of improving the site's optics) and outright inapplicable in many people's cases. A rational adult (defined as any adult capable of constitutive rationality, which, btw, depression and most other mental disorders do not preclude) should not have to jump through hoops to prove that their wish to die is valid. Not everyone wants to put in the effort (or believes that it is worthwhile to do so) to recover, and we should respect their wishes instead of telling them "You probably haven't tried hard enough."

This is what being pro-choice means - respecting the decision of a rational adult to pursue self-deliverance even if you ultimately disagree with their reasons for doing so or believe that they could have recovered.

Think of it like assisted dying: you will not be given access to it unless you have unbearable and **incurable** suffering. That means you should have to demonstrate that you have exhausted all treatment options before even considering suicide.

I resent this notion. It is not at all like assisted suicide/voluntary euthanasia with its gatekeeping and bureaucracy, and I don't know why you're appealing to such arbitrary requirements to justify your own beliefs. DIY suicide for a rational adult does not require, nor should it, approval from anyone. The "unbearable and incurable suffering" requirements are quite literally a product of pro-life attitudes in society rather than being based on a compassionate suffering-focused ethical framework.

 

[WatchmeBurn]

I won't really call this a pro-choice post. Its a pro-choice under certain conditions. Being pro-choice would mean allowing anyone the freedom to die no matter what reason (aside from few exceptions like being a parent.) While this should be recommended to people who are considering to suicide but still want to give recovery ago, no one should have to do even one of these things if they don't want to. Recovery is really really difficult and I shouldn't have to do that for others cus I was forced into this mess. Its my all parents' fault for creating me that this happened, I don't owe them anything good especially as they trap me. I would say they deserve punishment and to grief from my suicide.

I mean most people have limits to how 'pro choice' they are. You have written "except for parents" in your post, so you're not 'fully' pro choice, either. I suspect many here would not support, say, an 8 year old using this forum to learn how to kill themselves, right? Even in the forum rules it says no under 18s (though this is frequently violated).

Very few people are 'universally' pro choice in this respect, so I don't think it really means anything if OP isn't fully so, either. The conditions under which it is unethical to enable or abet someone to kill themselves is a valid point of discussion and, indeed, it is one of the most defining philosophical questions of this whole forum.

Why shouldn't this forum encourage people to seek out treatment options first if they have access to them, given that it could lead to a lot of people actually finding happiness? No, not everyone can be helped through medication/therapy, but some (in fact, most people with depression) certainly can, hence why only a minority of suicidal people stay suicidal throughout their whole lives.

Certainly I don't see how it is ethical to support people just acting on impulse, and I think that is something a lot of the forum shares, having lurked here for years (much longer than I have commented for).

I appreciate the sentiment but to be honest, I have already tried to fix myself. I've pretty much given up. Going through this whole game just to make my monkey brain stop hating itself is not worth it to me. I'm just ready to leave at this point...

It's not for me to decide what you want to do, but there is a valid discussion of the ethics of how the site should conduct itself. I don't know what you have tried and what you haven't, nor do I know anything about your life personally, so it's not for me to say.

For instance, under 18s are banned from this site. It's already in place that there are limitations in the 'community culture' as to who is 'permitted' to seek out death, so the boundaries are very much something that can and should be debated.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand why you posted this here instead of the recovery section. You're not going to convince prolifers that actually this site is fine because it tells people they should try harder before killing themselves. I guarantee that the vast majority of people outside of this site would disagree with that claim because of something along the lines of "no one should ever kill themselves because even with a miniscule 0.01% chance of things ever improving there's still hope" and "but think of your loved ones."

This post is frustratingly gatekeep-y (especially the suggestion that 18–20-year-olds should stay off the site until then, as if this would even achieve anything in the way of improving the site's optics) and outright inapplicable in many people's cases. A rational adult (defined as any adult capable of constitutive rationality, which, btw, depression and most other mental disorders do not preclude) should not have to jump through hoops to prove that their wish to die is valid. Not everyone wants to put in the effort (or believes that it is worthwhile to do so) to recover, and we should respect their wishes instead of telling them "You probably haven't tried hard enough."

This is what being pro-choice means - respecting the decision of a rational adult to pursue self-deliverance even if you ultimately disagree with their reasons for doing so or believe that they could have recovered.

I resent this notion. It is not at all like assisted suicide/voluntary euthanasia with its gatekeeping and bureaucracy, and I don't know why you're appealing to such arbitrary requirements to justify your own beliefs. DIY suicide for a rational adult does not require, nor should it, approval from anyone. The "unbearable and incurable suffering" requirements are quite literally a product of pro-life attitudes in society rather than being based on a compassionate suffering-focused ethical framework.

I don't think it should be about 'convincing pro forced-lifers', it's about ethics. Should a site aid and abet people to kill themselves who could realistically, and often quite readily, achieve happiness and peace without doing so? If people who could theoretically respond well to medication and therapy just haven't tried it despite having access, then should people accept their actions or try to dissuade them? If you disagree with the ethical stance OP or I have given then that's fair enough, but there's nothing wrong with discussing where the ethical boundaries of the site's culture and rules should be. There already ARE limitations in place, e.g., certain methods are discouraged, under 18s are not allowed, encouraging suicide is banned, so it's perfectly contestable where these boundaries should be, especially when they're not even at the 'legal minimum' (e.g., no particular legal reason to 'permit' suicide by SN but not by something more painful, it's purely moral) anyway.

I agree that 'pro forced-lifers' will never accept even the most drastic cases of unbearable suffering if it's derived from mental health, so there's not much point of trying to convince them. This place will end up banned in the UK soon no matter what. I care more about fostering an ethical social community that has moral practices and cultural guidelines, not some fruitless attempt at convincing the BBC to stop reporting on it or whatever. They wont do that as it's a "juicy" story that'll get clicks.

There are always limits to how pro choice someone is, unless you think-what-an 8 year old should be able to come on here and talk about acquiring SN? You yourself have given a limit to your pro-choice position (limited to adults of sound mind), the OP just has a different position to you. Indeed, it's not even about FORCIBLY STOPPING people from doing it-it's not like the site admins are gonna call the police if you post a thread without trying 15 anti-depressants first-but it's about establishing certain moral/ethical norms and guiding principles of behaviour that people use when interacting with each other. For instance, when someone comes on here and says they're about to swallow a load of paracemetamol, the social norm is to dissuade them because it's extremely painful and prolonged.

On an issue like this people are always going to have a different position on where the boundary for 'acceptability' is. I think it's pretty reasonable to want people to actually try to find happiness and peace before taking the final, last resort option of suicide. Most people who are suicidal don't stay suicidal, they end up finding some level of peace/satisfaction/happiness. A lot of them will do this through medication or therapy, which is proven to have a certain (very imperfect) level of efficacy in studies.

I think from a moral position it makes the most sense to discourage suicide unless you have actually exhausted your options. If you disagree then that's fine, but it doesn't make someone unsuited for the site or even this sub-page, which is "suicide discussion" and thus open to interpretation by definition.

On the contrary, while I think the person who is suffering should have (obviously) the primary say in their decision, if there is an alternative that could see them be happy, I think it makes sense to strongly encourage them to take that path. I'd much, much rather people be happy than be dead, frankly, even if I think a peaceful and dignified exit is desirable in cases where there is no cure. I do not think it is ethical to just say "here's the gun" (figuratively) when someone is first suicidal when the majority of them can have a good quality of life with treatment, no. I don't think that's a "compassionate" ethical framework whatsoever. E.g., I am here because I actually have exhausted all my options and am effectively immune to treatment. I wonder how many people here could be happy if they were encouraged to pursue treatment options before giving up entirely? Probably quite a lot of them. The pursuit of human happiness is good.

 

[The_Hunter]

I think your points are fair here. And the general reason/ethos of it too.

Pro-choice means ensuring that choice, is a well-informed one, a proper one. Both absolute ultimatums of pro-choice & pro-life ("ALL suicidal people should ALWAYS commit suicide: regardless of circumstance", "NO suicidal person should EVER commit suicide: regardless of circumstance") are fundamentally broken in real practice. Both of those scenarios would mean: (example provided for both sides) any person who becomes suicidal for even one day of their lives should end it all immediately--even if they would have recovered in a few days--and people with genuinely incurable terminal illnesses (ie; terminal cancer, etc) should be forced to live as long as possible, against their wishes. Neither are those are any good results at all, and both are absurd at face [value].

As someone in that age range, I will actually go on out a limb here, and say I strongly agree with you.

I can definitely see where the voluminous criticism you are recieving is coming from; but I think your intentions are valid, regardless.

I believe that being "fully" pro-choice is merely the same level of the horse-shoe of being "fully" pro-life. To be "fully" either side, is to be making an a priori decision, disregarding any and all context of the situation or possible paths in human psychology.

I think if we can all agree that nobody under 18 should commit suicide (an assumption [that] I understand others on that forum may disagree with), that it would be fair enough to extend this age range to 18-21, without much jump in reason. But if someone is to say that making this extension means it may be "extended infinitely to all ages", then I merely dismiss that as an instance of the slippery slope fallacy.

A few arguments for that extension:

• 18-21 is the age most head to college. College is a bigchange in life. It could turn your entire life around. Maybe for the bad as well as good; but such a serious change warrants serious consideration. I can personally attest to an example of a pretty suicidal person's life drastically improving once they headed to college; ofc not perfect, but something of note, I might add.
  • You meet an entirely fresh array of newcomers when you head to your first year of college. Behindwise in your local high school experience and always felt left out and alienated due to lacking "social tenure" in HS? This is a fresh slate on that. Yes, maybe it could just be another disappointment; but if loneliness or societal alienation is a key part of your reasons; this ought to be in consideration.
• Significantly increased independence. If you stayed inside a lot in your high school years; you experience a relatively significantly increased of freedom--being able to waltz around campus, and whatnot. And you might work a job during college as well; owing to more freedom and potenitally having a touch of cash to check around places--such as coffee shops and book stores--owing more to things that might potentially allow you to find something worthy in society and art experience.

If we look at a "pascal's wager" style quadrilateral to this post; then I argue it does significant benefit to encourage the convincable to take one more look at their life to ensure the idealness of their desired course of death; and arguably doesn't do too much harm to inform the truly unconvincable, who can truly have a level of suffering that is actually unfixable, to hear yet another message they have likely heard before. At worst it is yet another deep sigh of many. Therefore, I think accounting all "risks" of your post, that it is more benefit than risk; therefore I agree with the proposal concept of your post. Maybe I myself might have made a similar post, since I think I might align with your view here. But usually I don't go about making forum posts, I tend more towards commenting, it seems--for some reason.

I am well aware that there is a significant population of people who disagree with my post and the host post; in such case I welcome such disagreement for people to share their own ideas. I think it does us all good to realize the nuance of every situation and judge based off of rational odds, and acknowledge that we ourselves may not always be aware of everything all the time; that sometimes we aren't aware of certain details or facts / pieces of information that could potentially alter our perspective on a situation. But given what I know about this subject, this is my own view; and I support it with the regards of evidence I have thus provided. My best of wishes with anyone reading this.

 

[Haematemesis]

these stuff don't matter. you won't regret them once you're gone
you wont be able to say "oh i wish didn't commit it this early"
it doesn't matter.

 

[Namelesa]

I mean most people have limits to how 'pro choice' they are. You have written "except for parents" in your post, so you're not 'fully' pro choice, either. I suspect many here would not support, say, an 8 year old using this forum to learn how to kill themselves, right? Even in the forum rules it says no under 18s (though this is frequently violated).

Very few people are 'universally' pro choice in this respect, so I don't think it really means anything if OP isn't fully so, either. The conditions under which it is unethical to enable or abet someone to kill themselves is a valid point of discussion and, indeed, it is one of the most defining philosophical questions of this whole forum.

Why shouldn't this forum encourage people to seek out treatment options first if they have access to them, given that it could lead to a lot of people actually finding happiness? No, not everyone can be helped through medication/therapy, but some (in fact, most people with depression) certainly can, hence why only a minority of suicidal people stay suicidal throughout their whole lives.

Certainly I don't see how it is ethical to support people just acting on impulse, and I think that is something a lot of the forum shares, having lurked here for years (much longer than I have commented for).

I only see the exception with being a parent as I think its immoral to procreate and forceful create new life and so if someone does that then they have the obligation to stay with their child so they don't suffer as much. Other than that I don't see any other suicide to be immoral. I do think the rule of under 18s not interacting with this site should be kept as to keep them safe from getting manipulated by other malicious members, I don't see anything wrong with under 18s killing themselves as its their life.

I don't encourage impulsive attempts as I not one to decide on whether someone else should kill themselves or not but I also don't discourage them cus a dead person doesn't suffer any negative effects from their death. While we should encourage treatment options to people who want to recover, people who want to die and attempt to should have their actions be respected and shouldn't be forced to have to do anything they don't want to, and that includes recovery and any treatments.

 

[Arin]

If you are 18-21, you are too young to attempt suicide. It's a permanent decision and things could change, your brain can change, 18-21 is a hard time for many, many people.

This resource will definitely help some people here. That being said, I don't think it's fair to claim that absolutely no-one under 21 should ever CTB. This site is open to 18-21-year-olds for a reason. For some of us, we have issues that will never be solved, and waiting until we're 21 will only prolong our suffering. It really depends on the issue - if it's solvable, then definitely give different methods a go and try to see if they help. But sometimes there simply is no solution, and trying to get us to stay alive for no reason other than the pointless belief that 'things will get better' after 21 (when they can't, it is literally impossible) is cruel.

In my case, the longer I stay alive, the worse my situation gets. I'd rather CTB now, than wait until I'm 21 and either homeless or disfigured past the point of repair. No matter what happens, it's a lost cause, and I'd rather end my life now rather than live through three more years of pointless pain, with no end in sight.

 

[cme-dme]

• 18-21 is the age most head to college. College is a bigchange in life. It could turn your entire life around. Maybe for the bad as well as good; but such a serious change warrants serious consideration. I can personally attest to an example of a pretty suicidal person's life drastically improving once they headed to college; ofc not perfect, but something of note, I might add.
• You meet an entirely fresh array of newcomers when you head to your first year of college. Behindwise in your local high school experience and always felt left out and alienated due to lacking "social tenure" in HS? This is a fresh slate on that. Yes, maybe it could just be another disappointment; but if loneliness or societal alienation is a key part of your reasons; this ought to be in consideration.
• Significantly increased independence. If you stayed inside a lot in your high school years; you experience a relatively significantly increased of freedom--being able to waltz around campus, and whatnot. And you might work a job during college as well; owing to more freedom and potenitally having a touch of cash to check around places--such as coffee shops and book stores--owing more to things that might potentially allow you to find something worthy in society and art experience.

I wish I could understand this viewpoint because my time in college was some of the most stressful times in my life. The workload was overwhelming, the work was all boring and unrelated to my major, I felt extremely alienated from everybody else. It felt like I was back in HS which I was told that college was nothing like HS but that was just a lie. Same old shit but the pieces are rearranged a little bit. I also did things like going to book stores and coffee shops but it was just a meaningless distraction, didn't make me feel any better. I'm not happy about dropping out but I am also not too stuck up about it because I know I couldn't stay long enough to get my associates or BS.

 

[needthebus]

I won't really call this a pro-choice post. Its a pro-choice under certain conditions. Being pro-choice would mean allowing anyone the freedom to die no matter what reason (aside from few exceptions like being a parent.) While this should be recommended to people who are considering to suicide but still want to give recovery ago, no one should have to do even one of these things if they don't want to. Recovery is really really difficult and I shouldn't have to do that for others cus I was forced into this mess. Its my all parents' fault for creating me that this happened, I don't owe them anything good especially as they trap me. I would say they deserve punishment and to grief from my suicide.

I believe anyone should have the freedom to die matter what reason. But I still hope as a 19 year old you keep trying things for a while...

This is not meant to be condescending at all. I'm sure you're very intelligent, know you best, and have already thought about things. It's just my view, I am still pro-choice, I still support whatever you decide but hope you wait until past 21 if you can.

I actually have love for everyone mentioned on SaSu (except the BBC) because here is one of the few places that I don't feel like a freak for being unhappy and other people understand how miserable I am because they are unhappy too.

Im starting Emdr therapy soon. Have you done that before?

I haven't tried EMDR! I've heard about it!

Although I do have trauma and EMDR could possibly help, a lot of my misery is due to physical injuries and also due to major life events that I feel like I've missed out on due to the effects of the injuries, including depression and being involuntary held by the mental health industry.

I've also had such a bad experience with the mental health industry that even if there is objective evidence the industry could be helpful, I am tired of lying to people and can't really interact with the mental health industry and be truthful without a risk of prolonged hospitalization for suicide ideation and intent. Although I expect to commit suicide likely within 2 years, I also am so frustrated I could impulsively commit suicide at any time and the risk is high enough that there's an imminent risk of suicide for me. If I tell any mental health professional this, they would be under an ethical obligation to involuntarily hospitalize me, which for me is a fate worse than death. I have no religious beliefs, I don't think dying or suicide is immoral, and I don't want to be involuntarily treated. So yeah, no EMDR for me! I want my time back and my physical health back, that's what was stolen from me the most. There is no treatment for my injuries at this point and I can't explain more without providing identifying information, which I won't do.

I realize the hypocrisy of all of this and rather than pretend it doesn't exist, I'll just say "yep... and?" I still hope 18-21 year olds on this site try to wait it out a bit, try working full-time and dating and living independently, try everything they can, and I'm still pro-choice if they decide to ignore me. I still think some suicidal 18 and 19 years old wind up happy if they don't die.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand why you posted this here instead of the recovery section. You're not going to convince prolifers that actually this site is fine because it tells people they should try harder before killing themselves. I guarantee that the vast majority of people outside of this site would disagree with that claim because of something along the lines of "no one should ever kill themselves because even with a miniscule 0.01% chance of things ever improving there's still hope" and "but think of your loved ones."

This post is frustratingly gatekeep-y (especially the suggestion that 18–20-year-olds should stay off the site until then, as if this would even achieve anything in the way of improving the site's optics) and outright inapplicable in many people's cases. A rational adult (defined as any adult capable of constitutive rationality, which, btw, depression and most other mental disorders do not preclude) should not have to jump through hoops to prove that their wish to die is valid. Not everyone wants to put in the effort (or believes that it is worthwhile to do so) to recover, and we should respect their wishes instead of telling them "You probably haven't tried hard enough."

This is what being pro-choice means - respecting the decision of a rational adult to pursue self-deliverance even if you ultimately disagree with their reasons for doing so or believe that they could have recovered.

I resent this notion. It is not at all like assisted suicide/voluntary euthanasia with its gatekeeping and bureaucracy, and I don't know why you're appealing to such arbitrary requirements to justify your own beliefs. DIY suicide for a rational adult does not require, nor should it, approval from anyone. The "unbearable and incurable suffering" requirements are quite literally a product of pro-life attitudes in society rather than being based on a compassionate suffering-focused ethical framework.

I think you have a some valid points. It is a little bit gate-keepy cringe, right? lol. "Suicide for me, but not for Thee"

And I get your point about optics: the site optics are bad no matter what. But also, the BBC and others are saying people here are encouraging others to end it, and I think that's not true.

I also want this post to be here. Because sometimes, I will see someone in the 18-21 range say they are going to attempt and I wonder "Could they have been okay? Did they try enough?" and I think that because at 18, people may be living with shitty parents or bored in school and a full-time job would change things immensely. So I just want this post to be here so that if someone is 18-21 and I can't stop it and they could have gotten better and it was just a temporary depression, well, at least this is here and I tried.

But your post makes a lot of persuasive points and I can't really debate anything you've said.

 

[ShatteredSerenity]

I agree with the concept, and I appreciate the work that went into putting it in writing because there's a LOT of ground to cover.

It would be interesting to see something like it in flowchart form, although that would get really complex quickly.

Although I'm pro-choice, I still think suicide is always tragic, and it's always better if someone can figure out how to turn their life around and live a life they feel good about. Most people want that for themselves. That's not always possible, but having a road map to help navigate some of the major issues that lead to suicide could be helpful to people. If the road map leads to dead ends then it provides more evidence that suicide may be the answer, which could be helpful information as well.

 

[onthefence]

Im starting Emdr therapy soon. Have you done that before?

I have and it can be helpful BUT ensure you are seeing someone who is certified to teach EMDR. They have more experience and are less likely than someone who is just starting out to really mess you up. I started with someone who didn't have much experience and they would get me in the traumatic memory but couldn't get me out so I would be stuck there for weeks. The person I saw with a ton of experience was able to clear 3-4 memories in one session.

 

[The_Hunter]

I wish I could understand this viewpoint because my time in college was some of the most stressful times in my life. The workload was overwhelming, the work was all boring and unrelated to my major, I felt extremely alienated from everybody else. It felt like I was back in HS which I was told that college was nothing like HS but that was just a lie. Same old shit but the pieces are rearranged a little bit. I also did things like going to book stores and coffee shops but it was just a meaningless distraction, didn't make me feel any better. I'm not happy about dropping out but I am also not too stuck up about it because I know I couldn't stay long enough to get my associates or BS.

I am sorry to hear that. My regards.

I agree with the concept, and I appreciate the work that went into putting it in writing because there's a LOT of ground to cover.

It would be interesting to see something like it in flowchart form, although that would get really complex quickly.

Although I'm pro-choice, I still think suicide is always tragic, and it's always better if someone can figure out how to turn their life around and live a life they feel good about. Most people want that for themselves. That's not always possible, but having a road map to help navigate some of the major issues that lead to suicide could be helpful to people. If the road map leads to dead ends then it provides more evidence that suicide may be the answer, which could be helpful information as well.

Flowchart could be great, agree!

 

[unworthy_]

This is really a good post. I really hope young people would re-consider your attempt.
I know I am in no position to give advise because I am considering attempt myself.

It makes me so sad what society has become. When I was 17 - 19 or younger (I am 39y, F), things were simpler. Suicide wasn't so prevalent back then (although I don't have the statistic to back it up) due to lack of suicide resources. Back then the suicides were mostly slitting the wrist, drowning or jumping off the building (at least in my country). Now we have more peaceful exit methods, and the thought of suicide isn't as such gruesome, stress inducing anymore.

Although I have suicidal ideation every now and then, I truly am sad for younger peers that makes the majority in this forum ?, I really hope your life gets better if you are holding on a lil bit longer.

 

[fallingtopieces]

I won't really call this a pro-choice post. Its a pro-choice under certain conditions. Being pro-choice would mean allowing anyone the freedom to die no matter what reason (aside from few exceptions like being a parent.) While this should be recommended to people who are considering to suicide but still want to give recovery ago, no one should have to do even one of these things if they don't want to. Recovery is really really difficult and I shouldn't have to do that for others cus I was forced into this mess. Its my all parents' fault for creating me that this happened, I don't owe them anything good especially as they trap me. I would say they deserve punishment and to grief from my suicide.

Pro-choice means allowing the freedom to die no matter what reason, aside from exceptions that you've chosen. See the contradiction there already? The default belief of exhausting options of recovery is moral and quite frankly makes sense, and it's understood that individual context matters. No one will force us to recover, but know that also, you only know what you know. And that a depressed mind skews perception, especially self-perception. I certainly speak from experience in that regard. But if we haven't tried, we cannot know. That is a fact and very different from saying, well recovery is difficult and why should i have to do it for others.

 

[Pluto]

 

[Namelesa]

Pro-choice means allowing the freedom to die no matter what reason, aside from exceptions that you've chosen. See the contradiction there already? The default belief of exhausting options of recovery is moral and quite frankly makes sense, and it's understood that individual context matters. No one will force us to recover, but know that also, you only know what you know. And that a depressed mind skews perception, especially self-perception. I certainly speak from experience in that regard. But if we haven't tried, we cannot know. That is a fact and very different from saying, well recovery is difficult and why should i have to do it for others.

There's a reason why I said that exception in a previous post here.

I only see the exception with being a parent as I think its immoral to procreate and forceful create new life and so if someone does that then they have the obligation to stay with their child so they don't suffer as much. Other than that I don't see any other suicide to be immoral.

I don't see how recovery is more moral than suicide. Suicide is no way immoral cus we were forced into this world so it's totally fair to quit this life no matter the reason.

Personally I see recovery as more risky as that is less guaranteed for my suffering to lessen than if I die cus in non existence I can't suffer at all and can't regret dying in the first place. Others can absolutely take that risk if they want to but I would rather not but I am forced to live cus of my lack of access to effective methods.

 

[acidreflux]

What advice would you give to any 18-21 year olds in the same state as you?

Although I expect to commit suicide likely within 2 years, I also am so frustrated I could impulsively commit suicide at any time and the risk is high enough that there's an imminent risk of suicide for me.

 

[needthebus]

What advice would you give to any 18-21 year olds in the same state as you?

Who are afraid of cruel involuntary hospitalizations and don't want to lie? The bulk of what is on the list doesn't involve mental health professionals. Also, life coaches won't demand you do suicide risk assessments. I would hope you choose something on that list and try to do it. I think one of them is go jogging every day for two weeks to see if you feel better. if you want to try that one, you set an alarm for some time, possibly early, go jogging for 30 minutes outside (not walking!!!!) and then come back. This also needs to be 14 consecutive days (not some of the 14 days). If you've done that, and you still feel awful, cross it off. If you've never dated, try datings apps, at least 4, and try dating people for 6 months. If you get no replies or go on no dates or go on dates and it doesn't work, cross it off. The trying three jobs things will take at least 9 months to try. If you can, try it. Still feel terrible after all 3 jobs? Cross it off. If you've done everything on the list except meeting with mental health professionals and are afraid of involuntary hospitalization and unwilling to lie, it's up to you whether to meet with mental health professionals and lie, meet with mental health professionals and not lie, or not meet with them at all. You also have the option to meet with those types now, lie immediately, and get medications and try therapy. That industry's terrible ethical rules and cruel and financially exploitative involuntary care create a quagmire in which many suicidal people lie to get care without being involuntarily hospitalized and subject to cruelty and financial ruin. (If your society covers the financial cost of involuntary care, this should be less of a concern. In my country, if a person lived in a car, and is involuntary hospitalized, the hospital can get a judgment and take the car leaving a person on the street.) I would just be careful when seeing these people to be aware of financial cost, as mental health professionals NEVER care about financial well-being and can be financially exploitative. If you are in a country without a right to housing and food, I would just be very aware of mental health costs. I say this because some people are suicidal, want to try but fail due to survival instinct, and then end up financially ruined if they didn't anticipate that an attempt may not result in death. It depends on the country and the person's financial predicament.


I doubt many 18-21 year olds on this site were violently sexually assaulted, suffered permanent damage that couldn't be corrected despite medical attempts, and are effectively unable to date. I can't tell you why nothing can be done now without posting stuff that is identifiable. There's some chance at some point I'll ctb and post who I am after and what happened to me through a delayed post somehow. If you're depressed for that reason, it would probably put you into the major permanent injury/chronic pain category, which is different from depression. I don't think I would have my current level of suicidal intention if I were not physically injured and had given up on dating as a result. There are many people here who are suicidal because of these vague general reasons and not for specific incurable medicable problems that can't be easily treated.

 

[acidreflux]

There are many people here who are suicidal because of these vague general reasons and not for specific incurable medicable problems that can't be easily treated.

Fair enough, I didn't realise that it was like that. I was assuming at the very least, especially as a young person, that they may have complex mental health needs that they can't and won't be able to do or find any results from trying these things (unless by some miraculous stroke of luck, they get sent to a less-deprived area where the healthcare is good). I think what you're saying is a given for anybody who feels like they have exhausted everything out of life (when they haven't) which is what a lot of young people feel.

 

[Dot]

Flowchart could be great, agree!

Slf cld attmpt t/ pt smethng 2gthr

I doubt many 18-21 year olds on this site were violently sexually assaulted, suffered permanent damage that couldn't be corrected despite medical attempts, and are effectively unable to date. I can't tell you why nothing can be done now without posting stuff that is identifiable. There's some chance at some point I'll ctb and post who I am after and what happened to me through a delayed post somehow. If you're depressed for that reason, it would probably put you into the major permanent injury/chronic pain category, which is different from depression. I don't think I would have my current level of suicidal intention if I were not physically injured and had given up on dating as a result. There are many people here who are suicidal because of these vague general reasons and not for specific incurable medicable problems that can't be easily treated.

Slf wld sggest agnst makng n.e assumptns abt wht usrs hve bn thru tho - histry of SA = v commn on sasu mny hve complx m.h cnditns

Also whle slf d/ spport th/ idea of Ncourgng ppl t/ mke sre tht all ctbs r proprly thght out & nt implsve & tht cld try othr thngs etc jst kp in mnd tht sayng 'ths = wht u shld d/' mght nt alwys b accptd as ppl mght fl as tho thy r spokn dwn 2

Slf am persnlly pro-recvry tho & thnk tht sayng 'hve u thght ths thru' & 'wht hve u trid' r legitm8 questns t/ ask sme1 wh/ = cnsidrng ctb bcse obvsly thre r 0 othr decsns tht a persn cn mke aftr ctb

 

[nembutaldream]

this belongs in the recovery section nobody wants self help in the suicide discussion area

i first became suicidal at 18 after a relationship break up i wish i'd kill my self straight away back then because my life never did get any better

Word. I wish I'd ctb'ed back when I first wanted to before the age of 9, lol. Have tried all the bullshit on this list. OP might be well-meaning but doesn't understand the complexities and nuances of a lot of suicidality.

 

[needthebus]

Word. I wish I'd ctb'ed back when I first wanted to before the age of 9, lol. Have tried all the bullshit on this list. OP might be well-meaning but doesn't understand the complexities and nuances of a lot of suicidality.

i know i was very suicidal by 13, probably before. if you have tried all of this bullshit and are over 21 and have tried 3 different jobs, then this post wasn't really for you, since you fought hard and nothing has worked well. it doesnt mean you should end things, and not encoraging you, but if you are over 21 and did everything on the list, then you arent just impulsively considering suicide because of short-term depression.

i also dont think this list should suggest i dont understand nuance. no one has to follow this list, i am pro-choice, i just wanted to make the post.

if anyone (not part of the mental health industry) wants to use these ideas or rewrite this in a better way they are welcome to do that. id be thrilled if someone one this site can adapt it and make it better (as long as they arent a clinician)

i would be happy if someone rewrote it, as long as they werent some financial exploitative company/practitioner, and as long as they werent trying to profit off of it.

flow chat would be great, im not good with that and can't do it

 

[nembutaldream]

i know i was very suicidal by 13, probably before. if you have tried all of this bullshit and are over 21 and have tried 3 different jobs, then this post wasn't really for you, since you fought hard and nothing has worked well. it doesnt mean you should end things, and not encoraging you, but if you are over 21 and did everything on the list, then you arent just impulsively considering suicide because of short-term depression.

i also dont think this list should suggest i dont understand nuance. no one has to follow this list, i am pro-choice, i just wanted to make the post.

if anyone (not part of the mental health industry) wants to use these ideas or rewrite this in a better way they are welcome to do that. id be thrilled if someone one this site can adapt it and make it better (as long as they arent a clinician)

i would be happy if someone rewrote it, as long as they werent some financial exploitative company/practitioner, and as long as they werent trying to profit off of it.

flow chat would be great, im not good with that and can't do it

The thing is that people who are suicidal are often overwhelmed, and reading your post with all of its to-dos that require resources, money, good health, etc would likely cause them to spiral anymore. If you're genuinely trying to help people I think this post should really be in the Recovery section. It could be triggering to people who have been seriously contemplating suicide for a long time. Perhaps this is counterintuive to you which is why I said this post sounds as though it was written without an understanding of the nuance driving suicidality. How many people can afford a life coach, for instance? How many people are working three jobs and have no time to do the other suggestions you made? etc etc If the implict message is "you haven't tried hard enough" that is very discouraging and demoralizing to suicidal people. I get you wrote this with good intentions, but believe or not I think you might have done / be doing more harm than good with this way of trying to help.

 

[quietism]

I'm 26. I know I've been suicidal since I was 6. I've done everything on this list - but it's not "for me", right? Written for someone more "lazy"? Yes this thread is probably a bit too pro life, but that's not my real problem with it.

I doubt many 18-21 year olds on this site were violently sexually assaulted, suffered permanent damage that couldn't be corrected despite medical attempts, and are effectively unable to date.

This is what bothers me; the individualism. The central issue with gatekeeping roles in general is never that the criteria are too strict, but the implicit idea that only some individuals are "good enough" for certain things. In other words, behind the scenes there's a moral divide between good and bad people - which I feel nothing but incredulous towards.

A hypothetical comparison:
"My life is miserable, but I don't deserve to be happy because [a gatekeeper] said I shouldn't be."
"My life is miserable, and I want to end it, but I don't deserve to because [a gatekeeper] said I shouldn't."
They seem more similar than different if you ask me.

My problems are not really "my" problems. They are problems that come from not having a family, more broadly not having a familial culture to run off to, living in an ecosystem set on a time limit, with vested interests in isolating and hurting individuals. Living in a generation where individuals are incapable of solving meaningful problems of their own and also incapable of rallying to a common cause in any kind of coherent or productive way. Instead daily lives occupied with people I'd otherwise like to be friends with, wasting themselves on drugs in bars and too occupied in wage slavey jobs to organise resources to make their and other people's lives better. I rewatched the movie They Live yesterday - it makes me think of that.

We make our own wind - we create our own suffering as a species, directed arbitrarily and quite often completely randomly. The vast, vast majority of suffering is inflicted from one member of our species to another through stigma, cronyism, social hierarchies, and so on. And that's a problem that no life coach, no psychologist or medication can fix. What a therapist really does is take away the finger that can point at the precise issues, the self-organisation, and replace the focus of eliminating stigma with a desire to avoid it.

See also:
Arnstein, Sherry R. "A Ladder Of Citizen Participation." Journal of the American Institute of Planners 35, no. 4 (July 1969): 216–24. https://doi.org/10.1080/01944366908977225.

 

[needthebus]

The thing is that people who are suicidal are often overwhelmed, and reading your post with all of its to-dos that require resources, money, good health, etc would likely cause them to spiral anymore. If you're genuinely trying to help people I think this post should really be in the Recovery section. It could be triggering to people who have been seriously contemplating suicide for a long time. Perhaps this is counterintuive to you which is why I said this post sounds as though it was written without an understanding of the nuance driving suicidality. How many people can afford a life coach, for instance? How many people are working three jobs and have no time to do the other suggestions you made? etc etc If the implict message is "you haven't tried hard enough" that is very discouraging and demoralizing to suicidal people. I get you wrote this with good intentions, but believe or not I think you might have done / be doing more harm than good with this way of trying to help.

No one has to follow the post.

No one has to do anything or everything in the post.

It's not a list of requirements. Or a "if you haven't done these things and commit suicide you're immoral" post.

It's more of a list of "here are some things that sometimes work for people and make them less depressed. have you tried all of them before taking such a drastic step as considering a suicide attempt?"

Contrary to all the negative responses, it's not a gate-keeping post. I'm not trying to say "You don't deserve to die and stop suffering unless you've done this, this, and this and..."

It's more like "Are you sure you want to consider suicide when you haven't done these things?" Perhaps I could have phrased it better, but if I worried about the phrasing of everything over and over, I never would have posted it. Everyone's situation is individual. If someone is not healthy enough for jogging, but has tried everything else, I wouldn't expect them to try jogging. I am not asking people to work three jobs. My point with 3 jobs is that working, and making money, can sometimes make life less awful, but if someone starts working and still feels terrible, it could just be a terrible job. However, if someone has tried working a job, feels terrible, quits, tries another job, feels terrible, quits, and tries another job, feels terrible... then it's probably not just a terrible job and not having money that's leading them to feel awful. I wasn't saying someone should work 3 jobs at once.

I don't think people considering suicide are immoral or people who commit suicide are immoral. If you have found SaSu, you are either very curious or very unhappy or both. Most people who are extremely unhappy are just doing the best they can.

I realize this post could do more harm than good, but honestly, everything in my life seems to always go horribly wrong and so I would expect this post to cause more harm than good because nothing ever goes the way I want. But I felt like I should post it anyway.
Also there are cheap life coaches on Fiverr and even AI life coaches. If you can't afford a life coach or don't want to try an AI life coach or try it once and hate it, just cross that off as something not doable.

Anything financially impossible or just impossible for you can be crossed off if absolutely impossible or you've tried for a long time (ie, you are in a country with an unemployment rate of 20 percent and have been searching for a job consistently for two years and haven't been able to find one or can't work because of a disability, then you can cross of the stuff about trying to work)

 

[benjamind2020]

I doubt many 18-21 year olds on this site were violently sexually assaulted, suffered permanent damage that couldn't be corrected despite medical attempts, and are effectively unable to date. I can't tell you why nothing can be done now without posting stuff that is identifiable. There's some chance at some point I'll ctb and post who I am after and what happened to me through a delayed post somehow. If you're depressed for that reason, it would probably put you into the major permanent injury/chronic pain category, which is different from depression. I don't think I would have my current level of suicidal intention if I were not physically injured and had given up on dating as a result. There are many people here who are suicidal because of these vague general reasons and not for specific incurable medicable problems that can't be easily treated.

Wow, this sounds truly horrific. I was interfered with when I was 9 and have scar tissue in a part of my body I won't discuss. It was a stranger, a lone female foreign tourist who came into my town. I only ever saw them twice. They obviously sensed that I was lost and confused, and took advantage of that. They abused me twice in the space of about 10 days, and I never told anyone.

I find it more difficult to experience true intimacy and have trouble trusting women. I'm asexual and cannot ever conceive myself being involved in an intimate relationship. I can't even look at porn, because it doesn't arouse me, or if it does, it's only fleeting, and doesn't truly satisfy.

 

[slowdance]

This is 100% bait with bad diet info. Gluten-free only works if you have celiacs, keto only works if you have epilepsy, and vegan is a moral decision that is going to make it harder for you to get needed nutrients like B12. You forgot to recommend trying 20 years of homeopathy and 40 years of Scientology before truly knowing if you want to CTB

 

[needthebus]

This is 100% bait with bad diet info. Gluten-free only works if you have celiacs, keto only works if you have epilepsy, and vegan is a moral decision that is going to make it harder for you to get needed nutrients like B12. You forgot to recommend trying 20 years of homeopathy and 40 years of Scientology before truly knowing if you want to CTB

Edit to the original post:

-Also try 20 years of homeopathy and 40 years of Scientology or else you aren't allowed to ctb!!!!! EVER!!!!!!

I am the official gatekeeper of SaSu™!!!!

These people may ctb, and these people must pout and not ctb!!!!!!!!!!!! >:-(

You're depression is real, but you're depression is not! ONLY I may decide!!!!!!

 

[Mooseanonsky]

I don't have the mental energy for all that. I'm lazy and suicidal lmao.

 

[needthebus]

This is 100% bait with bad diet info. Gluten-free only works if you have celiacs, keto only works if you have epilepsy, and vegan is a moral decision that is going to make it harder for you to get needed nutrients like B12. You forgot to recommend trying 20 years of homeopathy and 40 years of Scientology before truly knowing if you want to CTB

As someone who has a registered dietician/ghost living in my brain at all times, I also find your post very insulting and inaccurate. Where did you even get your so-called "information"?

 

[NonEssential]

If I had to date and have a job before dying, I'd become immortal.