Venting procreation is wrong in my eyes

[Darkover]

these are just my opinion

You don't have to presume that everyone's life is unworthy, or that the lives of specific people are unworthy, or that actually no one's life is unworthy, in order to hold anti-natalist positions.

It is sufficient to know that the life of certain people would be unworthy in their eyes and that they would prefer not to have been created, in order to oppose reproduction.

And the reason is that with every reproduction there is a chance of creating a life that is unworthy, not in our eyes but in the eyes of those who will live it. Since it is impossible to know in advance which cases of reproduction will create an unworthy life, or if and when a life will become unworthy in the eyes of those who live it, all cases of reproduction are morally wrong.

We do not have to determine for people that their lives are unworthy, but only to know that unworthy lives in the eyes of those who live them are always a possibility, and that it is never a possibility that those who were never created will somehow be harmed by it. These two premises are sufficient to establish an anti-natalist claim without any need to determine for anyone that their lives are not worthy.

 

[waterworks]

Suppose we say, though you are unable to determine the worth of an unborn person's life in their eyes, if you have the necessary facilities in place to allow them to peacefully exit their life should they choose, then procreation is not inherently wrong.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Suppose we say, though you are unable to determine the worth of an unborn person's life in their eyes, if you have the necessary facilities in place to allow them to peacefully exit their life should they choose, then procreation is not inherently wrong.

I agree there is something in this. If we truly were free to pursue our own wishes- including suicide and, if assisted suicide was painless and reliable- it would seem more fair. That person genuinely would have a choice in life and who knows? Maybe, they will turn out to enjoy it- even for a while.

Life isn't like that at all though. We get born into a system we are expected to comply to. It isn't a particularly nice or fair system for a lot of people. Illnesses occur, tragedies occur, major traumas occur. That person will very likely have to comply to getting a job to (just about) support themselves.

And they won't just be allowed to leave when they want. It will be made incredibly difficult for them to leave in fact. Both emotionally- through emotional blackmail- think of how your suicide will devastate your loved ones, suicide is a selfish and cowardly act etc.

And, physically it's made so that the relatively painless methods are illegal or hard to access. So- the choice we do get is to risk maiming ourselves via a brutal method, possibly traumatising others- again- playing on emotional blackmail- do you really want to inflict that image on strangers or loved ones? And if we fail- involuntary sectioning, possible loss of employment, likely change in the way everyone sees and treats us.

I agree- it would be slightly different if suicide was seen differently and if it were permissable in this society but- it isn't- whatsoever in many parts of the world. They won't even let you die peacefully if you're terminally ill and dying anyway!

So- for some of us, we're literally being born into a prison sentence that we don't even get let out of for good behaviour. Ironically, we're all pretty much born onto death row when you think about it. It would be funny if it didn't involve so much suffering.

 

[Tesha]

I'd just like to acknowledge it was good to see you weren't directly attacking 'people who procreate', thank you.

I understand your concern that even one person feeling unworthy is one too many - but is it really concern about that 'hypothetical one person' or is it about your negative experiences of the world? Many people go through life - they have challenges - but ultimately the good outweighs the bad.

By telling people not to do something, that is perfectly natural, I feel you are trying to control others and make them do what you want. Is this any different to what you say the world is doing to you?

Why not focus energy on making all lives worthy (to use your phrase) instead?

 

[ijustwishtodie]

Suppose we say, though you are unable to determine the worth of an unborn person's life in their eyes, if you have the necessary facilities in place to allow them to peacefully exit their life should they choose, then procreation is not inherently wrong.

I agree with this. The moment where euthanasia is legal and easily accessible to everybody is when I'll stop being an antinatalist. However, I don't think that the pro lifers will ever make euthanasia be legal for us