Pro-life

[Sisyphus]

He's a bit of a hypocrite. He's pro-choice mostly when it comes to his right to choose...

Listen, I didn't really want to get into an argument here. I knew it was going to be controversial, what I had to say. I think probably people do not understand what I am trying to say. By saying more on this subject I seem to be digging myself into a deeper hole, so I am just going to quit now.

 

[Meditation guide]

Listen, I didn't really want to get into an argument here. I knew it was going to be controversial, what I had to say. I think probably people do not understand what I am trying to say. By saying more on this subject I seem to be digging myself into a deeper hole, so I am just going to quit now.

Go into a nursing home sometime and look at the elderly people who are vegetating with incurable diseases and bedsores, suffering pains WORSE THAN DEATH without any way out. Tell them they have to be forced to keep on suffering.

 

[Sisyphus]

This thread has gotten a bit out of hand at this point. Obviously, what I am saying is offending some people. I apologize, because my intention was only to stimulate a lively discussion. You guys are giving me some things to think about.

Go into a nursing home sometime and look at the elderly people who are vegetating with incurable diseases and bedsores, suffering pains WORSE THAN DEATH without any way out. Tell them they have to be forced to keep on suffering.

Well, I never really said anything like that. I think you are making my view into kind of a caricature. Try to be reasonable here.

 

[OnlyTheWind]

The point is, if a person says their situation is hopeless, when from an outside perspective it really isn't; there is still no obligation to avoid choosing death.

 

[Meditation guide]

This thread has gotten a bit out of hand at this point. Obviously, what I am saying is offending some people. I apologize, because my intention was only to stimulate a lively discussion. You guys are giving me some things to think about.

Well, I never really said anything like that. I think you are making my view into kind of a caricature. Try to be reasonable here.

I want to end my life and I have good reasons which should make it easy but so far it's impossible. Day to day existence is unbearable. Should I get a rope and hang myself? What do you suggest? And yes I've spent years struggling to figure out how to go on.

Since you don't want to have anyone like me find a simple way to end my life, what do you recommend for me?

It makes me angry that there are people who think the way you do.

 

[motel rooms]

The point is, if a person says their situation is hopeless, when from an outside perspective it really isn't; there is still no obligation to avoid choosing death.

The point is that we have a right to choose to die even if we don't think our situation is hopeless. My life belongs to me & me alone, not to my country & its government or any imaginary god(s).

 

[Sisyphus]

The point is, if a person says their situation is hopeless, when from an outside perspective it really isn't; there is still no obligation to avoid choosing death.

I do understand that. For instance, years ago I got into a world class prestigious university that it had been my dream to attend since childhood. Unfortunately, due to my health problems I was not able to attend. It was such a disappointment, it sent me into a deep depression. I felt the situation was hopeless.

It turned out that eventually I was able to go to another university close to my area and I did very well there. I was wrong about the situation, and it was not hopeless. Consider in that situation if I had had access to an easy suicide method and I had killed myself. That would have been a tragedy, not because I died, but because I died based on a distorted view of things. This is my point.

 

[Meditation guide]

I do understand that. For instance, years ago I got into a world class prestigious university that it had been my dream to attend since childhood. Unfortunately, due to my health problems I was not able to attend. It was such a disappointment, it sent me into a deep depression. I felt the situation was hopeless.

It turned out that eventually I was able to go to another university close to my area and I did very well there. I was wrong about the situation, and it was not hopeless. Consider in that situation if I had had access to an easy suicide method and I had killed myself. That would have been a tragedy, not because I died, but because I died based on a distorted view of things. This is my point.

What about me?

Can you see that not everyone is just like you?

Do you have a concept of there being people who might not have a situational depression?

I feel you cannot relate to that or understand it.

 

[Sisyphus]

I want to end my life and I have good reasons which should make it easy but so far it's impossible. Day to day existence is unbearable. Should I get a rope and hang myself? What do you suggest? And yes I've spent years struggling to figure out how to go on.

Since you don't want to have anyone like me find a simple way to end my life, what do you recommend for me?

It makes me angry that there are people who think the way you do.

I don't know your situation and I don't want to offend you, causing you more pain than you are already in. Everybody, including myself, on the site is in a lot of pain, or else we wouldn't be here, and therefore we have a mutual basis of understanding. I support your right to do what you can to alleviate your pain.

At the same time I want to prevent people throwing their lives away for nothing. I know, I know, who am I to say it's nothing. It's up to the person.

It's a tough position, trying to avoid a problem on the one side while giving people like you and me the means to end our suffering. There is no right answer, but what I am attempting to do with my position is to minimize suffering overall.

 

[newave3]

What about me?

Can you see that not everyone is just like you?

Do you have a concept of there being people who might not have a situational depression?

I feel you cannot relate to that or understand it.

Maybe I have had situational depression for the last 40 years of my adult life
Every situation I have gotten myself into has made me more depressed. LOL
Patrick Henry, one of America's founding fathers in 1775 said : " Give me liberty, or give me death!"
In 2021 @newave3 says : " Give me Nembutal and give me death!"

 

[Sisyphus]

That's a good one. I feel the same way. I have had a "situational" depression now for over 20 years.

 

[Meditation guide]

There is no right answer, but what I am attempting to do with my position is to minimize suffering overall.

So agree that I should be able to legally purchase an easy painless way to end my life, that would minimize suffering. That would be the right answer.

I can't be helped any other way. I didn't wake up yesterday and say oh darn I need to change my college, I should kill myself instead.

 

[Sisyphus]

So agree that I should be able to legally purchase an easy painless way to end my life, that would minimize suffering. That would be the right answer.

If you don't mind me asking, why can't you purchase something like that? I heard people were purchasing SN for $10.

 

[hʚll]

i am promortalist. but that doesn't matter because the forum is pro choice. so if one wants to die, then you should support their decision, no matter what their reason is. you have no means/right to judge if the life of someone is tragic enough to kill themselves or if they're suffering enough. don't use your standards for everyone else. what seems tolerable for you is not for someone else. but you talk like you know better than all us. and that's what makes me angry at you and your prosuffering friends.

 

[OnlyTheWind]

That would have been a tragedy, not because I died, but because I died based on a distorted view of things.

In this case, every suicidal person needs to be able to discern what is real and what is distorted. Unfortunately, we can't all have the ability to hang on and see what the near future holds. Many of those who are planning to end their lives don't even want to see it because the distortion IS real to them and no amount of help will get them to see otherwise. Sure, it's tragic when a turn for the better was just around the corner, but to have a sober and rational perception of reality is down to the individual and the state they find themselves in. Just my 2c.

 

[Sisyphus]

i am promortalist. but that doesn't matter because the forum is pro choice. so if one wants to die, then you should support their decision, no matter what their reason is. you have no means/right to judge if the life of someone is tragic enough to kill themselves or if they're suffering enough. don't use your standards for everyone else. what seems tolerable for you is not for someone else. but you talk like you know better than all us. and that's what makes me angry at you and your prosuffering friends.

So lets do a reductio ad absurdum. Suppose a person was sorting papers and one of the papers gave them a paper cut. They insisted that because of the paper cut they were suffering so much that they had to kill themselves. According to your position, you would support them killing themselves in this case?

 

[hʚll]

So lets do a reductio ad absurdum. Suppose a person was sorting papers and one of the papers gave them a paper cut. They insisted that because of the paper cut they were suffering so much that they had to kill themselves. According to your position, you would support them killing themselves in this case?

if that's what they want, if they say the suffering is unbearable then who am i to say that what they are feeling is wrong. so yeah i would support them and help them find a peaceful method to kill themselves. my position is that no one should have existed and death is always better. so you are playing this game with the wrong person.but i can see that you really don't want to discuss in a "good faith". whatever

 

[motel rooms]

So lets do a reductio ad absurdum. Suppose a person was sorting papers and one of the papers gave them a paper cut. They insisted that because of the paper cut they were suffering so much that they had to kill themselves. According to your position, you would support them killing themselves in this case?

I certainly wouldn't stop them. If they can't deal with a paper cut, they have a right to put themselves out of their misery ASAP cuz life's gonna fucking tear them apart.

 

[BottomlessPit]

@Sisyphus
You operate under the assumption that life has inherent value, and therefore it should be protected whenever possible. This manifests itself in your statement that suicide is only a last resort and that one shouldn't throw it away easily. And this makes sense, as long as one operates under this core assumption (the value of life). This seems to be the crux of the matter here. But you will find that the supposed value of life is far from uncontested. Attributing value to life can only be done in two ways: by some metaphysical belief like religion, or by a subjective value judgment and personal preference. And the latter of those two can only apply to the one making the value judgment, in other words, just because you personally hold life itself in such high regard, doesn't mean that everyone should follow suit or be forced to comply with laws passed under this personal preference.

I am a promortalist as well, that means I think it is always better to cease to exist, regardless of the circumstances. I won't go into the reasons for that belief here, I only bring it up to make a point: even though I belief that everyone would be better off dead, I don't go around and force my belief onto the lives of other people. I don't coerce them into killing themselves, I don't manipulate them, nor do I even suggest to them that they are better off dead. Why? Because I recognize that only they can make that choice. They have the right to decide for themselves if they want to "throw life away", or attempt recovery. This is what being pro-choice means, to neither impose life nor death. I would always support someone's choice to attempt recovery, just as much as I would always support someone's choice to commit suicide.

They insisted that because of the paper cut they were suffering so much that they had to kill themselves. According to your position, you would support them killing themselves in this case?

Yes, if "supporting" in this case means that I will not interfere with their attempt. Let's reduce it a little more: one doesn't need any reason to kill oneself. We have the right to do with our lives as we please, with or without a cause.

 

[Sisyphus]

@Sisyphus
You operate under the assumption that life has inherent value, and therefore it should be protected whenever possible. This manifests itself in your statement that suicide is only a last resort and that one shouldn't throw it away easily. And this makes sense, as long as one operates under this core assumption (the value of life). This seems to be the crux of the matter here. But you will find that the supposed value of life is far from uncontested. Attributing value to life can only be done in two ways: by some metaphysical belief like religion, or by a subjective value judgment and personal preference. And the latter of those two can only apply to the one making the value judgment, in other words, just because you personally hold life itself in such high regard, doesn't mean that everyone should follow suit or be forced to comply with laws passed under this personal preference.

I am a promortalist as well, that means I think it is always better to cease to exist, regardless of the circumstances. I won't go into the reasons for that belief here, I only bring it up to make a point: even though I belief that everyone would be better off dead, I don't go around and force my belief onto the lives of other people. I don't coerce them into killing themselves, I don't manipulate them, nor do I even suggest to them that they are better of dead. Why? Because I recognize that only they can make that choice. They have the right decide for themselves if they want to "throw life away", or attempt recovery. This is what being pro-choice means, to neither impose life nor death.

Yes, if "supporting" in this case means that I will not interfere with their attempt. Let's reduce it a little more: one doesn't need any reason to kill oneself. We have the right to do with our lives as we please, with or without a cause.

You see, this is the kind of response I like to see. Yes, I do assume that life has value, but not from a religious perspective. Why would I say that it has value? For a start, because it allows us to experience things that non existence would not allow us to experience. Life would be awfully dull never experiencing anything, don't you think?

I would like you to go into the reasons why it is better to not exist, if you have the time, because I would be interested. I would think that a person who was "pro-death" as I called it, would not even be alive to type to me. Why would you ever stay alive if death was so much better? And how would you ever know if it was better?

 

[Blondi]

For a start, because it allows us to experience things that non existence would not allow us to experience. Life would be awfully dull never experiencing anything, don't you think?

Those experiences are literally just the removal of pain.
Food=hunger
Entertainment= boredom
Sex= sexual frustration
Love= loneliness

Why would you ever stay alive if death was so much better?

Dying sucks and is painful.

And how would you ever know if it was better?

Science and philosophy.

 

[motel rooms]

Yes, I do assume that life has value, but not from a religious perspective. Why would I say that it has value? For a start, because it allows us to experience things that non existence would not allow us to experience. Life would be awfully dull never experiencing anything, don't you think?

Yes, life allows beings like me to experience magical things like being raped & beaten by my own father for ten years. Forgive me for not thinking that my life has value. I don't have a problem with anyone believing that their life has immense value, but please don't claim that life in general / every life has inherent value

 

[Mr2005]

Browsing this forum, I have come across this term "pro-life." In this forum, those people who are "pro-life" are often mocked, ridiculed, and disparaged.

It's a little disturbing to me because I would consider myself to be "pro-life." By that I mean: I support living, provided you aren't living in unbearable torture. I'd rather help somebody than supply them with a way to end it, and I would consider dying to be a last resort only reserved for a time when nothing can help.

I may get in trouble for saying this, but I think a lot of people in this forum are under the impression that nothing can help them when really they are just suffering from depression, grief, a tragedy, or a very difficult situation. I count myself in this group.

It can seem like death is the only way, but something could change or things could be not as they now seem. So, you see, I am "pro-life." Still, I have a noose sitting right here and I have researched methods from 3 books I got online. It's always good to have an insurance policy.

Now, I do support the right of people to committ suicide if they are truly hopeless, but that is probably a small fraction of those who ultimately end up dying by their own hand. Suicide is usually a tragedy, albeit a tragedy sometimes used to avert a bigger tragedy, that of continuing to live on in torturous situations. Even so, I don't think i could ever count myself among the opposite group, the "pro-death."

Every group needs an enemy. In this case it's 'pro lifers ' or 'normies '

 

[SuicidalAgain]

You see, this is the kind of response I like to see. Yes, I do assume that life has value, but not from a religious perspective. Why would I say that it has value? For a start, because it allows us to experience things that non existence would not allow us to experience. Life would be awfully dull never experiencing anything, don't you think?

I would like you to go into the reasons why it is better to not exist, if you have the time, because I would be interested. I would think that a person who was "pro-death" as I called it, would not even be alive to type to me. Why would you ever stay alive if death was so much better? And how would you ever know if it was better?

How would life be dull without experiences if we didn't exist at all? Non-existence protects us from the unlimited potential for pain. Sure there are nice experiences to have in life, but sometimes the pain outweighs those fleeting pleasures.

As for why a person who is "pro-death", or just someone who is suicidal, is still here having this conversation is because of our survival instinct, that's really not easy to overcome. Other reasons may include not wanting to cause pain to those left behind, or wanting to keep things in a certain way before they ctb, fear of failure... Ending your own life is not as easy a task as most people say it is ("the easy way out")

 

[UberYeets]

iT's OnLy DePrEsSiOn. iT gEtS bEtTeR.

 

[BottomlessPit]

Why would I say that it has value? For a start, because it allows us to experience things that non existence would not allow us to experience.

That is indeed true. But I don't think that life can derive value from that because 1) the nonexistent don't have the ability to mourn their lack of phenomenological experience, since that would require them to exist in the first place. If all life died out tomorrow, no one could find any fault in that, since everyone would be dead.
2) You don't outright say it, but when you say "experience" you probably think of all the nice and good things, like sunsets and pizza. But this argument can be turned around to say that life enables us to experience all the nasty and bad things, like anxiety, sadness, physical pain, rape, abuse, trauma, etc. And even if you didn't mean pleasurable experiences, then I wonder how experience itself, regardless of the contents of consciousness, can be said to have value, outside of subjective preference.

Life would be awfully dull never experiencing anything, don't you think?

See number 1)

I would like you to go into the reasons why it is better to not exist, if you have the time, because I would be interested.

For one, pain has more weight than pleasure, meaning that it deserves more consideration when weighing the benefits/costs of pleasure and pain. If we were given the option to save person A from painfully burning to death, or give another person B one million dollars, we would choose to save person A, because humans already have an intuition which tells us that pain is more negative than pleasure is positive.

Since life has the potential for unimaginable amounts of pain, it would be prudent to end it as fast as possible, since one never knows what the future might hold. The future could very well be even worse than the present.

Also, this post here: https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/life-itself-is-the-problem.67278/

And might I quote Schöngeist:

"Most people, let's call them "normal" for lack of a better word, would say that life is mainly good with bad parts in between, but all life consists fundamentally of suffering. This can easily be proven:
If you sit down and don't do anything, you will die of starvation and dehydration.
If you eat and drink, but don't do anything else, you will go insane from lack of mental exercise and suffer horribly from lack of physical exercise.
Essentially, your entire life consists of conscious and unconscious effort to avoid suffering; you have to work all the time to at least live a neutral existence. This leads to the conclusion that life is mainly bad with good parts in between."

This is all I have to say on the topic of promortalism for now.

I would think that a person who was "pro-death" as I called it, would not even be alive to type to me. Why would you ever stay alive if death was so much better?

See what @SuicidalAgain said.

And how would you ever know if it was better?

I had been nonexistent for billions of years, and I never suffered any slight from it. All my problems started after my birth.

 

[Deleted member 8579]

"Most people, let's call them "normal" for lack of a better word, would say that life is mainly good with bad parts in between, but all life consists fundamentally of suffering. This can easily be proven:
If you sit down and don't do anything, you will die of starvation and dehydration.
If you eat and drink, but don't do anything else, you will go insane from lack of mental exercise and suffer horribly from lack of physical exercise.
Essentially, your entire life consists of conscious and unconscious effort to avoid suffering; you have to work all the time to at least live a neutral existence. This leads to the conclusion that life is mainly bad with good parts in between."

You may add to this the following line which I recently found in an older thread on this website:
"Chronic sadness exists in abundance but chronic happiness doesn't exist at all."

 

[Callie Arcale]

This has been discussed countless times in the past.

Pro-life is a misnomer.

What we mean to say is that those people are anti-choice.

I had been nonexistent for billions of years, and I never suffered any slight from it. All my problems started after my birth.

:-D Ha ha ha. I could not agree more.

This thread has gotten a bit out of hand at this point. Obviously, what I am saying is offending some people. I apologize, because my intention was only to stimulate a lively discussion. You guys are giving me some things to think about.

Hi there Sisyphus,

First of all, I love the user name and the avatar. Perhaps you are familiar with Camus' (absurd) conclusion that "one must imagine Sisyphus happy". Alas, I see you are not happy with the course this conversation has taken.

I just wanted to say that these kinds of topics tend to get a bit out of hand because feelings run high around here when it comes to pro-lifers.

Try not to take it personally, if you can. You have been gracious and respectful in your replies and that's a great quality to have on this forum.

Welcome to SS

 

[BottomlessPit]

For one, pain has more weight than pleasure, meaning that it deserves more consideration when weighing the benefits/costs of pleasure and pain. If we were given the option to save person A from painfully burning to death, or give another person B one million dollars, we would choose to save person A, because humans already have an intuition which tells us that pain is more negative than pleasure is positive.

Since life has the potential for unimaginable amounts of pain, it would be prudent to end it as fast as possible, since one never knows what the future might hold. The future could very well be even worse than the present.

Also, this post here: https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/life-itself-is-the-problem.67278/

@Sisyphus
I realize that this was neither the most comprehensive nor the most eloquent summary of my reasons for promortalism. I was under some time constrains, but I guess it's enough to give you a rough idea.

I just wanted to say that these kinds of topics tend to get a bit out of hand because feelings run high around here when it comes to pro-lifers.

Try not to take it personally, if you can. You have been gracious and respectful in your replies and that's a great quality to have on this forum.

Welcome to SS

I agree with this.

 

[Midgardsorm]

I guess I was wrong about the trouble with the thread. But it actually has been a very healthy conversation about choice.

Everyone has a right to choose. No human is born with the desire to die.

You see, you spoke about Kevin Hines and his regret just after he jumped from Golden Gate. Yes, that's true. There's a lot of people who regret their decision and some people do speak about how they change their hearts after attempting to take their lives.

But it's not everyone. If that was true, why would the people that is more likely to commit suicide is those who have had previous attempts? Shouldn't they all regret their decision?

Kevin Hines is just spreading the words of one type of point of view.
It would be the same thing if I recorded a video about how chocolates are awesome, completely ignoring that this is just my opinion.

Life is just as a blessing to some as a curse to others. Depression, Chronic Pain, Disabilities, Porverty, Traumas... The pain is too much and believe that "It gets better" is just clinge to a childish dream, without sense that this world is not perfect.

Even those people who are completely healthy can simply be tired of life. The question is: Why force them to live a unhappy life? Death is a natural part of life. It is indeed sad when someone passes, but everyone has the right to choose.