Discussion Is bp/genetic determinism/lookism discussion still allowed on here?

[stepanch1k]

Is talking about incel adjacent content allowed on here, as long as there's no misogyny/discrimination? Also, in which section should it be talked about?
P.S. I'm a new user coming from blackpill/lookism forums

 

[_Gollum_]

I think discussing "lookism" is accepted but when you start getting into the more "biological"/"genetic" stuff then that's probably too far. I would also refrain from pointing out gender differences or turning it into a men vs women thing because those threads tend to explode very quickly and get locked. If lookism is related to your suicidality then it probably belongs in the main Suicide Discussion section but if it's about lookism itself then it probably belongs in Offtopic. Welcome to the forum.

 

[mawsonia]

I think it's fine if you express that you feel "hopelessly ugly," as it's something I think many people (including myself) can relate to.
It's also probably best to avoid talking about anything that could be construed as "gender war-y."

 

[rotthjärta]

I mean its a real thing but fuck if I know I haven't been here long enough. Theres a section for Politics and or Philosophy, I spoke about Ig sort of a Topic of being ugly and how it contributed to being treated different through out my life, some comments agreed or pitched in their experience so I think Lookism talk would be fine.

 

[AnxiousLife]

I would say they have a much higher censorship on these topics, than they should. Even on topics that are about scientifically proven issues

 

[extremelyugly]

I think discussing "lookism" is accepted but when you start getting into the more "biological"/"genetic" stuff then that's probably too far. I would also refrain from pointing out gender differences or turning it into a men vs women thing because those threads tend to explode very quickly and get locked. If lookism is related to your suicidality then it probably belongs in the main Suicide Discussion section but if it's about lookism itself then it probably belongs in Offtopic. Welcome to the forum.

Lookism is very much a genetic and biological thing though, so it would be pointless to talk about without considering it. About the gender war, sure, if it starts getting into an infight I agree, but lookism affects either sex differently, so if there isn't any forced invalidation of the other gender's experiences then it should be ok, right? Because some people (in the internet, idk about here) try to adamantly deny the existence of such a thing, either positive (Halo) or negative (Horns). Idk.

 

[Tobacco]

You could try but some people would immediately jump at it.

I could offer you to talk on PMs. Though I'm a failed normie.

 

[violetforever]

what is bp?

 

[mawsonia]

what is bp?

The "blackpill;" it's the idea that looks are everything in life (in dating or otherwise), that looks (and thus your fate) are determined at birth via your genetics, and that human nature creates a societal construct that makes the previous two things inescapable truths of life. Certain parts of it are very controversial topics and might cause a lot of arguments/chaos in threads so I imagine people would want to avoid talking about the topic too much to prevent people from fighting.

 

[violetforever]

The "blackpill;" it's the idea that looks are everything in life (in dating or otherwise), that looks (and thus your fate) are determined at birth via your genetics, and that human nature creates a societal construct that makes the previous two things inescapable truths of life. Certain parts of it are very controversial topics and might cause a lot of arguments/chaos in threads so I imagine people would want to avoid talking about the topic too much to prevent people from fighting.

oh yeah ive heard that term. i never saw it as an acronym though lol. i wasnt really familiar with what the description of it was so thx.

 

[extremelyugly]

The "blackpill;" it's the idea that looks are everything in life (in dating or otherwise), that looks (and thus your fate) are determined at birth via your genetics, and that human nature creates a societal construct that makes the previous two things inescapable truths of life. Certain parts of it are very controversial topics and might cause a lot of arguments/chaos in threads so I imagine people would want to avoid talking about the topic too much to prevent people from fighting.

I'm not the one who ask about the BP, but even though I admit I know mostly only the lookism part of the BP, and the deterministic nature of it, I think most people want to avoid looking at those stuff because it's a very uncomfortable truth about society, after all, being considered shallow is almost seen as an insult to basically everyone isn't it? But it's... mostly true. We are very, very shallow creatures, that one thing is undeniable; that it's mostly defined at birth is also true, and it attacks the "just world" mentality of most people, which is another reason most don't want to even entertain the idea of properly discussing it (well, there isn't much to discuss frankly but ok).
For me, the truth is that the actual insanity is denying its existance (lookism) and its importance (immense), and divert to typical bulletpoints about "confidence" or "personality" immediately, but what can I do? It's better to live in a delusion for most people.

 

[_Gollum_]

what is bp?

Me sitting here wondering why we're talking about binging and purging on a lookism thread

Lookism is very much a genetic and biological thing though, so it would be pointless to talk about without considering it. About the gender war, sure, if it starts getting into an infight I agree, but lookism affects either sex differently, so if there isn't any forced invalidation of the other gender's experiences then it should be ok, right? Because some people (in the internet, idk about here) try to adamantly deny the existence of such a thing, either positive (Halo) or negative (Horns). Idk.

I'm not the one who ask about the BP, but even though I admit I know mostly only the lookism part of the BP, and the deterministic nature of it, I think most people want to avoid looking at those stuff because it's a very uncomfortable truth about society, after all, being considered shallow is almost seen as an insult to basically everyone isn't it? But it's... mostly true. We are very, very shallow creatures, that one thing is undeniable; that it's mostly defined at birth is also true, and it attacks the "just world" mentality of most people, which is another reason most don't want to even entertain the idea of properly discussing it (well, there isn't much to discuss frankly but ok).
For me, the truth is that the actual insanity is denying its existance (lookism) and its importance (immense), and divert to typical bulletpoints about "confidence" or "personality" immediately, but what can I do? It's better to live in a delusion for most people.

Agreed on both points. By "biological" I meant moreso like measuring skull proportions or whatever.

I will say that this forum is better than most for at least accepting that lookism is a reality for many people and not assuming it's just a matter of self-confidence or personality. I've been able to complain about being fat on here before without getting much "toxic positivity" back.

 

[violetforever]

Me sitting here wondering why we're taking about binging and purging on a lookism thread

thats exactly why i had to ask thats what i associate it with

 

[neurotoxic]

I don't know of any incel-adjacent content that isn't misogynistic

 

[stepanch1k]

I don't know of any incel-adjacent content that isn't misogynistic

Lookism and genetic determinism just of the top of my head

 

[neurotoxic]

Lookism and genetic determinism just of the top of my head

Never heard either discussed without additional misogynistic dogwhistling. Blackpill is inherently misogynistic is the issue.

 

[extremelyugly]

Never heard either discussed without additional misogynistic dogwhistling. Blackpill is inherently misogynistic is the issue.

So reality is misogynistic now? No. Nothing about lookism nor genetic determinism is misogynistic; that some people infuse misogyny in between the facts is another thing, and of that there is no denying, but lookism, the halo effect, the horns effect (this fucking one), those are all literally rooted in reality, undeniable, to deny that is to believe the Earth is flat; otherwise I wouldn't need to CTB. So, lets just stop trying to gaslight anyone here, please.

 

[neurotoxic]

So reality is misogynistic now? No. Nothing about lookism nor genetic determinism is misogynistic; that some people infuse misogyny in between the facts is another thing, and of that there is no denying, but lookism, the halo effect, the horns effect (this fucking one), those are all literally rooted in reality, undeniable, to deny that is to believe the Earth is flat; otherwise I wouldn't need to CTB. So, lets just stop trying to gaslight anyone here, please.

Ah, a compelling argument. "But its reality!" Man, if you had as much unearned confidence in yourself as you do some wacko social theory, you might be confident enough to break out of the nonexistant male loneliness epidemic!

 

[liquid jen]

I don't know of any incel-adjacent content that isn't misogynistic

I feel like most people have that idea of incels, but in actuality I the term/community has just been run over by those types of people. Being chronically online and terminally lonely is what it really means to most, and I think mocking and grouping us together with the hateful extremists is just unfair and counter-intuitive.

 

[neurotoxic]

I feel like most people have that idea of incels, but in actuality I the term/community has just been run over by those types of people. Being chronically online and terminally lonely is what it really means to most, and I think mocking and grouping us together with the hateful extremists is just unfair and counter-intuitive.

Another user made an entire post about this, and he explains it better along with several other pointers for self-identified incels on how to not be associated with the misogyny, but to sum it up the best way to not be mistaken for a misogynist is to stop identifying with and using terms used mainly by misogynists. Nobody hears "I'm a virgin" and thinks misogynist, but you can't blame people for assuming you are one when you use the word "incel" instead. Nobody is forcing you to identify with a hate group. Stop using words like incel and blackpill and you will immediately find people are way more sympathetic.

you can identify as one and insist that youre not associated with the bad incels, but when the bad incels are the ones who control the narrative around the word by running and using incel forums and generally being far more visible than the nice ones, it makes sense for the nice ones to just dissociate themselves from the terminology and use normal people words.

here is the post: https://sanctioned-suicide.net/thre...-a-virgin-man-to-incels-and-adjacents.245873/

 

[liquid jen]

Another user made an entire post about this, and he explains it better along with several other pointers for self-identified incels on how to not be associated with the misogyny, but to sum it up the best way to not be mistaken for a misogynist is to stop identifying with and using terms used mainly by misogynists. Nobody hears "I'm a virgin" and thinks misogynist, but you can't blame people for assuming you are one when you use the word "incel" instead. Nobody is forcing you to identify with a hate group. Stop using words like incel and blackpill and you will immediately find people are way more sympathetic.

you can identify as one and insist that youre not associated with the bad incels, but when the bad incels are the ones who control the narrative around the word by running and using incel forums and generally being far more visible than the nice ones, it makes sense for the nice ones to just dissociate themselves from the terminology and use normal people words.

here is the post: https://sanctioned-suicide.net/thre...-a-virgin-man-to-incels-and-adjacents.245873/

Eh, it's not like I go proclaiming this association to people anyway. Incel feels more fitting and gives me some sense of solidarity. Still, not something I outwardly claim besides on online places like these where people get it. A 'virgin' just hasn't gotten laid. An 'incel' is too far gone. I really don't think I'll ever feel loved, and I've largely accepted that. I don't hate anybody for this, just the world, and that's just the way it is.

 

[neurotoxic]

I mean look at the word and what it stands for. "involuntarily celibate" is not a term used by someone who doesn't have a victim complex around their own lack of intimacy. The word itself implies a belief that you are owed something and by extension lack of regard for consent for the people incels seem to think they deserve to be intimate with.

 

[makebelieve]

I mean look at the word and what it stands for. "involuntarily celibate" is not a term used by someone who doesn't have a victim complex around their own lack of intimacy. The word itself implies a belief that you are owed something and by extension lack of regard for consent for the people incels seem to think they deserve to be intimate with.

I think this is a stupid arguement. Being involuntary celibate just means you are aware that you are unwanted by the majority of the population whether by looks or other circumstance, just because you assume that position doesn't mean you feel like you are owed intimacy from others.

 

[mawsonia]

I mean I do think people should not call themselves "incels" due to the negative connotation associated with it. To be honest, it's nigh impossible to "reclaim" that word and change the minds of most people. I think using "blackpill words" tends to derail threads away from their actual purpose (ie expressing hopelessness) and more towards whether the terminology used is good or bad (which also causes a lot of fighting from the few threads I've seen regarding these topics). Saying you feel hopelessly lonely due to your appearance already talks about both "lookism" and "genetic determinism" but garners a lot more sympathy from people.

However, I do get the reason because want to identify under the "incel" label since "virgin" does not capture the hopelessness people feel, which is valid. I also don't think the term is inherently bad either. As has been said above, just because you feel incapable of getting into a relationship doesn't imply that you think you are owed one since the language of being/feeling incapable doesn't mean you are owed anything. At most it removes blame from the individual but doesn't shift the blame to anyone else (well, maybe "God" or "fate" if you believe in those.)

 

[neurotoxic]

No such thing as involuntary celibacy, if you ain't getting it, people are making choices. Incels just don't like the fact that other people have the choice to steer clear of them. Embracing an extremist community creates a feedback loop where incels can make themselves unapproachable and then self-victimize because they made themselves unwantable.

 

[extremelyugly]

I think this is a stupid arguement. Being involuntary celibate just means you are aware that you are unwanted by the majority of the population whether by looks or other circumstance, just because you assume that position doesn't mean you feel like you are owed intimacy from others.

Don't bother, they love to think being someone who is unwanted is because of some magical ability that those who reject us have to read our minds, not because of purely how we look (lookism). They have it all backwards. We don't become unapproachable, we always were and always will be, no matter how much they want to blame us for what is esentially being very ugly. Just plain old delusion and good old "just world" fallacy. Plus, the typical "oh it's ok if no one wants you, everyone can live by themselves", said by people who have never lived by themselves one single day and would CTB immediately after one month of being unwanted.

Ah, a compelling argument. "But its reality!" Man, if you had as much unearned confidence in yourself as you do some wacko social theory, you might be confident enough to break out of the nonexistant male loneliness epidemic!

Oh, the old "just be confident". Sure, be confident that your face will stop being asymmetric, that'll work. Be confident that they will magically ignore your garbage face just because you're faking some actually unearned confidence. So, you're denying lookism... why exactly? What is there to gain by denying it? Is it just gaslighting? Is that it? I don't get it. I cannot fathom with any fiber of my being why there are people who still choose to play the "it's your fault your genetics are garbage" card with that confidence garbage. I'm sorry but no, I won't take any gaslighting anymore, like I'm already forced to take it in real life just to come here and it still happens? How disgusting.

 

[stepanch1k]

Don't bother, they love to think being someone who is unwanted is because of some magical ability that those who reject us have to read our minds, not because of purely how we look (lookism). They have it all backwards. We don't become unapproachable, we always were and always will be, no matter how much they want to blame us for what is esentially being very ugly. Just plain old delusion and good old "just world" fallacy. Plus, the typical "oh it's ok if no one wants you, everyone can live by themselves", said by people who have never lived by themselves one single day and would CTB immediately after one month of being unwanted.

Oh, the old "just be confident". Sure, be confident that your face will stop being asymmetric, that'll work. Be confident that they will magically ignore your garbage face just because you're faking some actually unearned confidence. So, you're denying lookism... why exactly? What is there to gain by denying it? Is it just gaslighting? Is that it? I don't get it. I cannot fathom with any fiber of my being why there are people who still choose to play the "it's your fault your genetics are garbage" card with that confidence garbage. I'm sorry but no, I won't take any gaslighting anymore, like I'm already forced to take it in real life just to come here and it still happens? How disgusting.

Brother just dnr these people, there no point in arguing because you won't change their opinion. They immediately get mad because their belief is tied to their identity so when you start arguing with them they think you're attacking them instead of the argument . Just don't get mad at these people it won't change anything, just ignore them and go about your day. Don't add more fuel to the fire

 

[extremelyugly]

Brother just dnr these people, there no point in arguing because you won't change their opinion. They immediately get mad because their belief is tied to their identity so when you start arguing with them they think you're attacking them instead of the argument . Just don't get mad at these people it won't change anything, just ignore them and go about your day. Don't add more fuel to the fire

It's ok, I'm just countering because I cannot accept being gaslit anymore, but I know that they don't change their minds, after all, it's the only way they can maintain their just world fallacy intact.

 

[neurotoxic]

Don't bother, they love to think being someone who is unwanted is because of some magical ability that those who reject us have to read our minds, not because of purely how we look (lookism). They have it all backwards. We don't become unapproachable, we always were and always will be, no matter how much they want to blame us for what is esentially being very ugly. Just plain old delusion and good old "just world" fallacy. Plus, the typical "oh it's ok if no one wants you, everyone can live by themselves", said by people who have never lived by themselves one single day and would CTB immediately after one month of being unwanted.

Oh, the old "just be confident". Sure, be confident that your face will stop being asymmetric, that'll work. Be confident that they will magically ignore your garbage face just because you're faking some actually unearned confidence. So, you're denying lookism... why exactly? What is there to gain by denying it? Is it just gaslighting? Is that it? I don't get it. I cannot fathom with any fiber of my being why there are people who still choose to play the "it's your fault your genetics are garbage" card with that confidence garbage. I'm sorry but no, I won't take any gaslighting anymore, like I'm already forced to take it in real life just to come here and it still happens? How disgusting.

hey, I can't deny the convenience of your views. If people are inherently shallow, and your only flaws are inherent as well, than there never has to be any responsibility on you. If anyone implies otherwise, you can just accuse them of being a bluepilled normie who doesn't understand reality. Easy-peasy and always everyone else's fault.

Lookism absolutely exists, but blackpill as collection of views is so rigid that it accepts no nuance and there's no room for personal responsibility or accountability whatsoever, and living like that eventually turns even the nice guys into the worst type of incel.

 

[makebelieve]

hey, I can't deny the convenience of your views. If people are inherently shallow, and your only flaws are inherent as well, than there never has to be any responsibility on you. If anyone implies otherwise, you can just accuse them of being a bluepilled normie who doesn't understand reality. Easy-peasy and always everyone else's fault.

Lookism absolutely exists, but blackpill as collection of views is so rigid that it accepts no nuance and there's no room for personal responsibility or accountability whatsoever, and living like that eventually turns even the nice guys into the worst type of incel.

Being bullied for my looks was definitely my fault