It genuinely doesn't bother me at all but then again I'm an evil person anyway. Food just happens to taste better to me if someone or something involved suffered along the way. I've had Impossible or Beyond meat before but while they taste alright, I honestly found them even tastier when combining them with meat.
I wonder if you watched "Earthlings", you might find it actually does bother you - maybe you're just more drained and burnt out than "evil"
I understand that you want people to go vegan and all, but you kind of have to accept the fact that most people probably aren't going to. Veganism isn't the most accessible diet out there and a lot of people aren't going to want cut out foods that they like for it. To add onto this, certain points that vegans commonly make about animals suffering don't apply to many places around the world. For example, farm animals in my mom's country are actually treated fairly well and are able to roam around freely. By the time they are about to he slaughtered many of them have already lived very good lives.
I think being plant based is becoming more and more accessible, though I appreciate being 100% plant based is not possible for *everyone* (e.g. some indigenous people, people in food deserts) - veganism is about doing what is possible and practisable. I do kind of think if people have the view "most people won't go vegan" it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy - no one thinks anyone else will do anything, so no one does themselves. Unfortunately I disagree on the second point. There might be some animals who have led good lives up until slaughter (though then isn't it wrong to slaughter them, if they want to live?) - but in reality, there is so much awful treatment of farm animals - all around the world (and the slaughter process can be terrible too). Have you seen "Earthlings"? That is horrific and sadly standard practice. What makes you think the animals are treated well? I think the animals treated "well" are more of the exception, plus farmers have an incentive to be dishonest about how "well" animals are treated
Maybe the simple fact I don't want to:
- Expose myself to illnesses from lack of meat
- Expose myself to higher risk of depression
- Pay more for shittier food
- Deviate welfare discussions from improving farms instead of outright abolishing them
- Crops use animal products in virtually every case, so even if the diet wasn't so flawed you still contribute nothing.
You can read here about that. Skip the philosophical part tho, it's strawmen and overall utter BS. The rest is pretty good.
I'm openly against veganism and don't hide from it. Not only it brings nothing to the table, iy's bad for your health and has a serious enough chance to fuck your body up irreversibly.
I'm not sure there's much evidence for the first two points you make - do you have any sources?
The third point - it depends what you're buying. Some vegan alternatives are expensive, but things like rice, beans - are extremely cheap.
The fourth point - I can see that if we KNEW that no one would ever go vegan and campaigning for veganism over "welfare" hindered animals being treated better, then this might be a valid point, but I'm not sure we do know that
Fifth point - sorry, I'm not quite clear what it is you're saying? I would look at the article but I'm really really tired rn. Are you saying that we need animal products to fertilize crops (there is vegan fertilizer) so there's no point eating plant based? sorry I genuinely don't understand what the argument is?
most health bodies say you can be perfectly healthy on a plant based diet, you can get any nutrient you need on a plant based diet, so I disagree that it's unhealthy
For me it is a largely a lack of willpower. I'm dependent on my parents and eat what they eat, and though I could simply make my own meals every day, I genuinely don't have the energy for that. Certainly not an excuse, but that's why.
It's also worth mentioning I don't think death is intrinsically bad; I think if animals live healthy lives and are slaughtered humanely no harm is done, or at least, any potential cost will be outweighed by the benefits. Unfortunately, most meat comes from factory farms, so eating meat is probably unethical is most scenarios, since culinary pleasure most likely does not occur on a scale that outweighs the essential torture that factory farmed animals go through.
That said, I don't really understand some of the reasons given in this thread. Sure, when you're at the store deciding whether to buy meat or not, the animal you're potentially going to eat is already dead, but every person who reduces their meat consumption has an impact, however minuscule, on the level of meat production in the world, and those minuscule impacts add up. Animal suffering and suffering in the world, in general, exists on a continuum. It's obvious that going vegan/eating ethically sourced meat won't lead to the total elimination of suffering but it's equally obvious that it would reduce it to some measure, which is why some people bother at all.
I'm not trying to be sanctimonious; I can't, because as mentioned, I do eat meat. It just bothers me that so many arguments against veganism seem so illogical. I think vegans generally have the moral high ground and it's annoyed me in the past to see them being nutpicked or memed (especially when the punchline is just something about how great bacon tastes). I think it's at least partially because of the cognitive dissonance it creates, especially for people who think life has
intrinsic value, like most outside of this site.
Other points:
I find it hard to believe that the existence of crop deaths implies that vegans are implicitly hurting animals
more than meat-eaters, considering that both meat-eaters and livestock also eat said crops.
Not all animals are equal. Consider cows and chickens, for instance. Not only does the average chicken live in worse conditions than the average cow, but chickens are much smaller than cows. That is, some amount of cooked chicken is the result of more suffering than the same amount of cooked beef. For similar reasons, eating eggs causes more suffering than eating a similar amount of dairy. And as said before, considering animal suffering is a continuum, I think it makes sense to choose to eat meat that has suffered less, so to speak.
reducing-suffering.org
Since animal suffering exists on a continuum I also don't understand why eating meat is typically conceived of as a dichotomy; reducing one's meat consumption even by, say, 50%, would naturally have some impact.
I can certainly accept that for some people, it's simply not viable from a health point of view to cut out meat from one's diet. I do find it hard to believe that this applies to everyone considering the availability of vitamin supplements and other protein sources in most developed places and the fact that plenty of vegans do exist. But I'd stand to be corrected there.
I have heard vegans say that it's not ethical to
breed obligate carnivores (like cats) since this would lead to more livestock suffering as you say. I'm inclined to think similarly. But realistically, cats and dogs already exist—plenty of pets are rescues/adoptees—and
arguably unlike humans, they do need to eat meat (cats, certainly... I'm not so sure what the deal is with dogs).
I can understand the first point, particularly if you're depressed, it can feel overwhelming to change your diet
to your second point about death not being intrinsically bad - I don't think it is either, but I think living beings should be allowed to CHOOSE if they live or die. Most farm animals show that they want to live. Would it be ok if we bred humans, treated them "well", then killed them and ate them without their consent?
also, eating plant based has so many potential benefits for humans - it is much better for the environment as animal agriculture is so resource intensive, we would produce more food for people, many people will argue that people would be healthier, and we wouldn't have violence normalised in society (people who hurt animals are more likely to go on to hurt people), and slaughterhouse workers wouldn't end up with PTSD
yes - there would be FEWER crop deaths if everyone was plant based, because we would be producing fewer crops than if people ate meat - because crops are grown to feed livestock
I agree that it's better to cut down on meat consumption rather than do nothing, but I still would argue for not eating meat at all
Because I don't really think that being a vegan would have an impact on anything and because it'd be super, super annoying to try and convince my parents that I'm vegan (especially due to how they are muslims and have eid once a year dedicated to killing an animal for its meat and making the entire family eat said meat). Additionally, I've noticed that I'm more selfish and more self serving as I only really tend to consider my own suffering for the most part.
Yes, animal suffering sucks and it really does suck to see how animals get treated like (perhaps I'd care more if I saw a video of what goes on in a slaughter house) but I don't really have an impact on that. I think of it as analogous to the right to die or anti work where, whilst these things are good to believe in, it won't ever be implemented in society no matter how much activism you do merely because the power increases with numbers and there are many, many, many, many people who justify wage slavery or prolonging life as long as possible or eating meat. In this world, you really are expendable and your efforts are negligible. I wish that it wasn't this way and that there was a better alternative, I really do, but there unfortunately isn't. If there was a magical red button that instantaneously ends all sentience and thus all suffering, I'd press that button but life isn't that generous and we really have negligible impact on the suffering that occurs within the entire planet.
That said, I do respect anybody who is vegan due to acknowledging suffering that the animals experience. You guys have way more empathy and kindness than I ever could so I just want to say thank you
maybe you're not any more selfish than the average person, maybe you're suffering and overwhelmed? I think you would care more if you watched something like "Earthlings", yes :(
I appreciate it's difficult when people around you encourage eating meat/ it's seen as a part of your culture/ religion - although (I may be wrong) as far as I am aware, there is nothing in Islam saying you HAVE to eat meat
idk - has positive change never happened in society then? not that slavery doesn't still exist, but arguably it doesn't exist on the same level that it used to - because people campaigned against it
I don't think I have any more empathy or kindness than you or anyone here. I just (I feel like this comes across patronising when I don't mean it to at all) think I've thought about this particular topic more than the average person has, maybe. I grew up vegetarian, not realising the intense suffering the dairy/egg industry causes, and then I learnt about what really happens to animals, and knowing what I know now, having seen disturbing, awful, footage - I just can't contribute to it any more. I am definitely flawed in many, many many other ways.
20% of people who return to meat for health don't get it fully back.
I find it funny how vegan defenders think you just get a magic diagnosis like something ordinary, when in truth they usually don't appear until you already fell for it.
may I ask what your source for this is?
Nothing prevents me from becoming a Vegan. Becoming a Vegan for moral reasons just doesn't appeal to me. Perhaps one day I will approach vegetarianism purely because I love eating vegetables. I certainly don't mind replacing certain meats with mushrooms in recipes. But I don't plan on outright depriving myself of food options for the sake of an ideology or calming a guilty conscious. My diet strikes a balance between health, cost and pleasure (gastronomy).
I wonder if you knew more about the reality of how animals are treated, if you'd feel differently
i'm a vegetarian and have been for 8 years, but personally, i don't think any life is more valuable than any other life, be it plant, animal, or human. to sustain your life, you have to take life. unless you can afford to eat entirely synthetic lab food or something.
not claiming i don't have biases, obviously there are lives i value more than others, i don't cry when i kill a bug, but i think in an objective sense, that bug's life is worth the same amount as any other. some plants are believed to feel pain too.
in my eyes, it's better to be more respectful towards all living things and be grateful that they gave their life to extend yours. although i am absolutely against the current state of the meat and dairy industry and think that needs to be completely reworked because it's horrifying.
also, for those with eating disorders, going vegan is generally a very bad idea, although i'm not recovering anymore.
in response to the eating disorder point - I can understand that. I think you can still engage in other aspects of veganism, e.g. not buying animal tested products.
I don't know enough about whether or not bugs feel pain, so I think it's best to err on the side of caution and not harm them unnecessarily. I don't think there's any evidence for plants feeling pain, as they don't have a central nervous system - but even if they did, by eating plant based we would cause fewer plants to suffer - more plants are grown if we eat meat, as we need to feed livestock
i just don't care enough to. it would also be self-contradictory for me to do so, given how i'm one who seldom metes out moralistic pash in the first place
I wonder if you would care more if you saw the footage of what happens to animals
My depression is worse without meat and cheese. Its expensive to be Vegan and I hate cooking
I can understand it's hard if you're really depressed, giving up comfort food - although I would say there are more and more nice tasting vegan alternatives out there. I don't think being plant based requires any more cooking than not being plant based. Also, being plant based can be really cheap - it depends on what you buy
www.globalvegans.com
