Venting ICE and Police Brutality in General...

[Dejected 55]

Let me preface by saying not all police are bad or corrupt. I believe the systems and government for which they work are definitely corrupt, and that corruption taints the good officers who work within the system over time, even as I recognize the good cops can sometimes be powerless to clean up within their squads due to the corruption at the top that tends to want to sweep stuff under the rug. I have known and interacted with good people who are police. I have not known or interacted with any ICE agents. I am willing to extend my general "not all cops" sentiment to everyone until proven otherwise... so the rest of my commentary here is specifically for the bad ICE agents and cops out there, and doesn't mean to impugn any good ones.

Okay, so for much of my life there has been discussion of police brutality and sometimes murder of minorities. The victims are often black, but sometimes are other minorities. These stories do not often make the news, and even when they do they tend to be underplayed by many people who just assume they "must be guilty of something." Far too many people tend to have the opinion that unless and until a thing happens to them, it must be only happening to those who deserve it. Sad, but true.

Anyway, it was easy to frame these scenarios as prejudice racist cops out of control who were being protected from their crimes. I completely get how it appeared this way, especially given this country's history of slavery and how you constantly hear about how black parents have to raise their kids, especially the sons, differently to be especially compliant involving encounters with police.

But here's the thing... while I'm certain there are some racist cops who do it out of prejudice... *I* have always maintained that was just a smokescreen. In truth, I think it has always been a power play and bad cops who thought they were better than you because of their position. Period. The fact that it tended to play out more often with minorities as victims is more a reflection of greater society than racist cops. Why do I say that?

Because... if an out of control cop used excessive force on a white person in the past and it made the news that shit was almost unanimously condemned. But when the victim was a minority? People would divide up, along racial lines, and white folk would tend to band together and decide the minority must have "done something" to earn being mistreated by the cops. Do you get what I'm saying? IF you were a cop on a power trip and wanted to put your thumb on people to show who was boss... you knew you had a MUCH better chance of getting away with it if you abused a minority than a white person. Society showed you that daily with how they reacted to minorities making complaints vs whites.

Something is subtly changing in society now... prejudice by race still exists of course... but we are now clearly seeing cases of white people being murdered in front of people by ICE agents and there is a scramble by many to defend how those people "deserved" to die. This was unthinkable even 10 years ago that a white person could be the victim of such a crime and there not be a public outcry. That was usually reserved for when police trampled over minorities.

What's happening now is the divide is happening less often across racial boundaries and more often across political or religious ones... So the cops who always wanted to power trip are finding they can now abuse anyone with the same impunity that used to only be reserved for when they attacked minorities. Basically, the bad cops are now getting to do what they always wanted to do anyway because society has changed slightly to support them attacking anyone who is "different" regardless of race, as long as that difference is in line with the current group-think.

So... Republicans are okay with police killing Democrats... Democrats are okay with police killing Republicans. Both sides are okay with protestors being killed depending on what they are protesting... and the outrage is trending mostly along political lines and less across racial ones.

This is neither better nor worse... just different.

Meanwhile, at least one crazy thing is starting to emerge too. Used to be when a black man with a gun was killed everyone said "he didn't need a gun anyway" even if he legally owned said gun. Second Amendment rights people got eerily quiet when these types of things happened because it confused their brains of how they have to support guns for everyone even when there were certain people they didn't want to have a gun!

But... I heard today that the NRA had spoken up about the recent killing of the ICU nurse who was carrying a legal weapon. Many on the right were saying about him like they used to only say about black people that "he had a gun so he was dangerous, why have a gun at a protest if you aren't there to hurt people"... you know, they used to like to say that a "good guy with a gun stops a bad guy with a gun" which would mean good guys with guns would have to take guns to protests... you know, like that dude years back who took his gun across state lines to go to a protest and shoot protestors? He was lauded by a hero for doing that shit by the right... meanwhile, this ICU nurse was starting to be raked over the coals by 2nd amendment folks saying "why does he need a gun if he is peaceful" and shit that contradicts every other usual thing they say about second amendment rights... nevermind that he didn't draw his gun or use his gun or that his gun was taken from him BEFORE he was shot nearly a dozen times to death.

But... the NRA actually spoke up and said "what the fuck are you talking about?" to the people condemning the guy over having a lawful gun per his constitutional rights. NRA actually said, hey wait this is the kind of guy we defend... he was the literal good guy with a gun only he was shot by a bad guy with a gun without justification under the guise of police action.

It will be fucking weird if the NRA is the rational voice on this shit all of a sudden.

But anyway, to my original point... I don't think it was usually about racism... I think it was always about power, and the societal shift to be less prejudice about race and more prejudice about politics/religion is going to show us just that... The bad cops who are out there just want to oppress and punish and they will apply that pressure wherever society most allows them to get away with it.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I'd like to hope that the majority of cops, priests, soldiers, teachers, scout leaders, therapists, people working with animals, anyone in a position of power or care, are good. But sadly- I agree. All of those jobs present opportunities for people who want to abuse that power. They give them access to potentially vulnerable people and they provide them with circumstances where it's sometines hard to prove they are in the wrong or, it's legally complicated so- they may end up being protected. Almost like some are looking for ways to just about legally offend or offend profusely before they are caught.

As for the horror show happening in Minneapolis- I'm just astounded really at the seeming lack of screening and training that seems to be happening for armed ICE officers. To me- both shootings looked like straight forward executions because the officers felt irritated and insulted- not threatened. I wouldn't have thought their rules of engagement were so very different to the police. As in- you don't stand in front of a moving vehicle, you don't shoot someone who is driving away and you don't shoot an already restrained and already unarmed man.

It shouldn't necessarily happen but- officers are sometimes verbally abused or impeded or threatened. You'd think they'd be more careful in not arming trigger happy officials though. A friend of mine applied to join the police. Part of the interview were people standing in each corner of the room, yelling abuse at them! Like- you really think you can handle this in a calm, confident and non reactionary manner?

It's tricky to say though- whether people join the police say to act on a pre- existing prejudice. Whether they just want the chance to Lord it over everyone and use/ abuse the power they have. Maybe some become jaded during the job too. We shouldn't of course. Everyone should be given an equal chance and be treated the same.

I've not worked in law enforcement but, I have worked in a care setting where some residents could become violent. Obviously, it wasn't pleasant dealing with them and- you would be more on your guard around them. We had the benefit there of knowing them individually and their risk of lashing out. It really isn't to excuse their behaviour if they are clearly in the wrong but on the other hand, I'd hate that job!

Really though- it can only be a case by case analysis. What did the offender do? What's their history? What threat do they present to the public and officers? How did they react when they were approached? Was there enough reason to arrest them and was that articulated? Was an appropriate amount of force used in response to their behaviour?

I have seen shocking footage of officers simply losing their temper and striking out. It is the sort of job you imagine a robot might be better at in a way. If they worked entirely off of established rules and couldn't be wound up.

 

[Dejected 55]

And the thing is... lets pause for a second and say that Goode *was* a terrorist impeding lawful operations... and lets say Pretti *was* a terrorist who brought a gun to threaten police. Even in those completely fabricated scenarios they are using to try and cover their asses... You still CANNOT execute people in the street like that. That's not what America is supposed to be about. Hell, our own President is simultaneously cheering for the actions of the ICE agents while threatening leaders in Iran for doing the exact same thing (killing unarmed protestors) in their country. How the hell can someone do that with a straight face? Acknowledge how horrible it is to kill unarmed protestors on the spot AND justify it when your side is doing it. It's insane.

Even IF those recent victims were somehow a danger to others... the ICE agents acted completely inappropriately. They are taking the whole "kill them all and let God sort it out" mantra to heart way too seriously. This is going to escalate and end badly.

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

What I don´t understand, why do some people want uncontrolled immigration in their countries? Especially, why do they want it in the overpopulated EU, contayning of traditionally countries of emigration not immigration? Those people who want immigration are not the majority but a loud minority who terrorize the majority with their excessive morality. Every country has the right to decide who enters it and who not. If immigration without permission is a crime, all illigal immigrants are criminals and it is all right to treat them like criminals. And anybody who supports criminals is a criminal too. And as alway is actio equal to reactio.

 

[Dejected 55]

What I don´t understand, why do some people want uncontrolled immigration in their countries? Especially, why do they want it in the overpopulated EU, contayning of traditionally countries of emigration not immigration? Those people who want immigration are not the majority but a loud minority who terrorize the majority with their excessive morality. Every country has the right to decide who enters it and who not. If immigration without permission is a crime, all illigal immigrants are criminals and it is all right to treat them like criminals. And anybody who supports criminals is a criminal too. And as alway is actio equal to reactio.

Answering in reverse order...

Anyone who commits any crime is a criminal... so anyone who breaks speed limit laws is a criminal and anyone who supports speeding is a criminal too. Not all crimes are the same, but that doesn't matter, right? Criminals are criminals and all should be treated the same... and we all know that someone in the country illegally who never breaks any other laws is exactly the same as someone in the country illegally who kills people... right? I mean, that's how the US government is trying to treat illegal immigrants right now. They said they were going after the worst of the worst criminals who were illegal immigrants, and yet they seem to be rounding up otherwise non-criminals AND people who are here legally and are even right now killing American citizens just for good measure.

To use your ending phrase... the reaction from the government is not equal to the actions of the people they are harassing and killing.

Meanwhile... why is illegal immigration so rampant? I can explain it EASILY here in the US... Despite the protestations, politicians, people in power, wealthy people, and corporations LOVE illegal immigrants because they can be exploited for cheap labor and they will not complain because they don't want to be deported. IF people who came here were only able to find work through legal immigration status, then we would have less immigrants and nobody would have any labor they could exploit. But people and companies who want to pinch pennies and oppress know they can't do that as easily to American citizens, so they make it as difficult as possible to legally immigrate here AND on the side encourage and help people to get here illegally and employ them under the table to cut corners.

I can't speak for the rest of the world... but if you want to blame anyone for illegal immigration being out of control... blame the wealthy, the corporations, the farmers, and anyone who hires people without legal status knowingly and exploits them. It's that simple. Punish people who do this with large fines and imprisonment and that shit will stop... and the only people immigrating here will do so legally. Of course we also need to improve that process, but that's a side conversation.

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

For someone who don´t wants to loose his home country, uncontrolled immigration is the worst imaginable crime. Or do you think, the native Americans appreciated the uncontrolled immigration of Europeans?

I have the same suspicion, if capitalism rules the world, nothing happens unless it serves capitalism. So, the do-gooders and communist are unsuspecting vicarious agents of capitalism. But my impression is, that like "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" capitalism will not get rid of the spirits invoced.

 

[Dejected 55]

For someone who don´t wants to loose his home country, uncontrolled immigration is the worst imaginable crime. Or do you think, the native Americans appreciated the uncontrolled immigration of Europeans?

I have the same suspicion, if capitalism rules the world, nothing happens unless it serves capitalism. So, the do-gooders and communist are unsuspecting vicarious agents of capitalism. But my impression is, that like "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" capitalism will not get rid of the spirits invoced.

That's the thing. We could absolutely control immigration in a humane way and protect the sanctity of the country. While I have nothing against "foreigners" I've argued that IF we truly have a problem with too many immigrants, then it shouldn't matter if they are legal or otherwise and we should just stop allowing anyone not already in the legal process to immigrate. That means nobody... not just the "brown" ones... IF the problem is overpopulation and not enough infrastructure to support it, then we can't handle more white people from Europe any more than "brown" people from Mexico, right?

We could setup a proper and reasonable immigration process and then enforce it. As I said, impose sharp penalties on Americans who break the law by hiring and importing immigrants under the table. We can meanwhile work on a humane way to deal with those already here.

Nobody seems to remember in the US about 40 years ago when Reagan and the Republicans were in favor of amnesty for immigrants already here and it was Democrats who opposed that and wanted to close the borders... until the two parties switched sides. I think both sides basically want the immigrants here illegally for the cheap labor but want to talk as if they don't for appearances sake. Meanwhile, we seem to want doctors and engineers and such from other countries even with our supposedly not being able to handle more immigrants.

Which... brings up a good conversation I recently heard about why immigration is bad for us and bad for other countries. Why? IF we in the US keep importing doctors and scientists and engineers from outside the US... we are making it harder and discouraging US citizens from pursuing those career paths... simultaneously we are taking GOOD SMART people away from other countries of the world who could use them in their own countries to improve their lot in life... but we don't tend to give fuck all about that if we get ours... unfortunately.

Point really here is... the people in power are the ones creating and exploiting these problems... and then convincing the average citizen that it is the "evil immigrants" coming to "take their jobs" and such... when it is the powerful who are stealing your jobs from you and then encouraging the immigrants to come here illegally and fill them.