Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[DOGMA67]

These adapters go into the output/low pressure part of the system, so they are totally safe to use.

Hi, thanks for suggesting this method! Would you mind detailing the set up? For example, the specifications of the quick coupling adapter. Because I know the specs of the fitting on the nitrogen pressure regulator, but I can't find the specs of the fitting on the demand valve? How do I make sure the quick coupling adapter will match my demand valve?

 

[NAB]

Hello everyone!

This is my first post and I would like some advice on the exit bag method. I have felt kind of overwhelmed with the different aspects and technicalities - as well as seemingly conflicting information on it, but I hope to be able to finally be able to get it all right and order everything now. For that I have a few questions I hope you can help with:

1. Choice of gas: The general consensus seems to be that there is a preference for nitrogen or argon over helium, but no difference between those two. I however read an article referring to a study done on mice that argon was way more effective (thought I cant find it again). However, nitrogen seems to be easier to explain to others (beer). I have not decided which to go with and they seem to be the same price. What is the general consensus and advice here?

2. Volume of gas: I have been torn between getting a 5l or 8l at 200b. 8 seems excessive, but are only marginally more expensive in case I have a leakage or waste of some kind. I was also wondering if a 2l ought to suffice (would be easier to transport and hide). I'm a 50kg female, so I should not need that much, but I'm not sure. Does anyone have any advice here?

3. Exit bag: I have read some of the information and guidance out there - where considerations on scuba masks and NRB masks have been made. The conclusion I seem to have come to is however that the scuba masks are too advanced and expensive, while the NRB masks seem too high risk. So that leaves a traditional exit bag. I have been looking for the Betsy video, but it has been taken down and I have not been able to identify any other information though it would be very helpful. I had also considering using a standard 20l plastic bin bag with adjustable string closing mechanism. Would this suffice?


4: The combined regulator/flowmeters I can find are surprisingly expensive. I'm kind of bothered that the PPH only shows the Max Dog one, as its not the same kind as I would otherwise find and use, but for oxygen. It makes the process more difficult and makes me feel less confident about everything. The ones I can find are for CO2/Argon/Mix and are mostly around 150-250USD (Im in Europe). I dont want to spend this money to find out its the wrong kind. The pictures are all bad and I cant see the details on them, such as where and if I can adjust the flow to the ideal recommendation of 15-20 l/m. This one is by far the cheapest (less than 100 USD):


While the ones that are 2.5-3 times as expensive look more like this:



Are these alright for the purpose? Which one should I get? Should I be concerned about potentially using an Argon/CO2 one with Nitrogen?

5. Attaching the tube to the tank: I havent been able to get the oxygen tubing recommended in the PPH and plan on using 6mm plastic tubing for aquarium. However, I'm concerned about how to ensure that its securely attached to the tank. I dont want any leakage or end up with a botched attempt because of this. PPH recommends using a hose clamp instead, however I dont have any experience or knowledge about this so I dont feel very confident. A hose clamp seems to be for cars: Would something like this really do it? I dont need any other screw or mechanism to make sure its securely fastened?

Thank you everyone for your help and guidance!

 

[GasMonkey]

the specifications of the quick coupling adapter

You need to know the thread on the output of your regulator before getting the adapter, most regulators are 1/4" male or 3/8" male.

How do I make sure the quick coupling adapter will match my demand valve?

I have seen and used myself a bunch of demand valves and all of them have the same plug-in nipple. I'm almost sure that they are 1/4" but I can measure it the next time I go to work.

 

[BeyondTheHorizon]

Hi guys,

I tried to buy a bottle of Nitrogen yesterday. My story was that my dad was starting a beer-brewing venture and that my brother and I wanted to supply him with nitrogen and a regulator for Christmas. Unfortunately, my story fell through, as I had selected a "technical grade" nitrogen bottle over a "food grade" one.

My question is, is "food grade" nitrogen still useful to CTB? The company said they don't have anything below 30L cylinders for food grade, which is much too big and heavy obviously. If food grade is fine, I'll take my story to another vendor, and if not, does anyone have a good story to purchase "technical grade" nitrogen?

To clarify, they were willing to supply, but didn't have an appropriate size food-grade cylinder and I couldn't change my story to suit the technical grade stuff after I said it was for beer brewing.

Cheers,

BTH

 

[GasMonkey]

my story fell through

Buy it online, directly shipped to your house, no stupid stories or explanations needed. I'd never give any explanations to any company, it's not their business what I'm using the gas for, if they don't want to take my money another company will take it.

My question is, is "food grade" nitrogen still useful to CTB?

You need at least a purity rating of 2.8 (99.8%).

The company said they don't have anything below 30L cylinders for food grade, which is much too big and heavy obviously.

30L is huge and VERY HEAVY, don't buy anything over 10L. The most balanced size is 5L 200bar.

 

[GasMonkey]

I however read an article referring to a study done on mice that argon was way more effective (thought I cant find it again).

I think Argon was better in the mice study due to weighing more, so it was positioned better for being inhaled by quadrupedal animals. For the manually crafted ExitBag any of the inert gases it's valid. I think Helium could be a little better due to being the lighter one. For SCBA/SCUBA setups Nitrogen is the way to go since the gear is designed for air (which is 78% Nitrogen).

However, nitrogen seems to be easier to explain to others (beer).

Buy it online, directly shipped to your house, no explanation needed. I'd never give any explanations to any company, it's not their business what I'm using the gas for, if they don't want to take my money another company will take it.

2. Volume of gas: I have been torn between getting a 5l or 8l at 200b. 8 seems excessive, but are only marginally more expensive in case I have a leakage or waste of some kind.

Anything between 5 and 10L is valid, more than 10L is too much, too big and too heavy. 5L 200bar is a very balanced size.

I was also wondering if a 2l ought to suffice (would be easier to transport and hide).

2L * 200bar / 15 LPM = 26 minutes. It is enough since you obviously are not gonna survive 26 minutes in a 0% O₂ environment, but I'd get the 5L in case you wanna do some purity checking or tests, and increase the confidence in the setup. My main cylinder is 10L 200bar 4.0 (99.99%) and I have a second one 2L 200bar 2.8 (99.8%) for tests.

The conclusion I seem to have come to is however that the scuba masks are too advanced and expensive

My latest proposed SCBA setup is around ~$180 (cylinder not included) depending on the shipping and taxes. You would need to determine the correct adapter for your regulator tho. The Canadian source has entire kits ready to use but they are expensive.

NRB masks seem too high risk

I don't recommend NRB masks, even tho they are plausible to CTB and likely to work, they are not explicitly designed to protect you from the external air.

Exit bag

The pattern proposed in the PPeH is probably the best one.

4: The combined regulator/flowmeters I can find are surprisingly expensive.

There is a german shop that sells native N₂ flow regulators, the cheapest one being 119.99 € (taxes and shipping included).

Should I be concerned about potentially using an Argon/CO2 one with Nitrogen?

You would need to adjust the flow. Or you can just buy a N₂ regulator and suppress that variable. :)

I havent been able to get the oxygen tubing recommended in the PPH

That's strange, I have seen a bunch online, specially on uncle J3ff B3z0s site.

Would something like this really do it? I dont need any other screw or mechanism to make sure its securely fastened?

A small hose clamp it's enough yep, uncle J3ff has a lot of those. :-P

 

[Wunderkind]

Perhaps the post will be useful to someone.
I did a number of tests on myself with N2 (fortunately, unlike SN, this is completely safe).
What I found (these are just my subjective observations and everything below is not scientifically proven research):
1. I feel sorry for people who can buy a filled tank but don't have the ability to refill it. I strongly advise you to personally experiment and check N2. If there is such an opportunity.
2. I managed to lose consciousness only once, and then, literally for 10 seconds, due to the non-hermetic nature of my mask, which I used when applying to my face for testing. Basically, I was able to quickly reduce the level of oxygen in the blood below 70%, while I stopped hearing sounds and lost control of my body.
3. The third point arises from the second point. The tightness and ventilation of your exhaled air of your mask, bag or whatever you will be using is very important! Each % of oxygen inhaled with nitrogen catastrophically delays the whole process. Moreover, the SI may begin to turn on due to discomfort if the oxygen level in the inhaled nitrogen is high enough due to non-nervousness.
4. It's not as hard to buy a tank and attach a gear as it is to make a perfect bag or remake a mask.
5. Cost - if you don't have a budget, this method is probably not for you, skimping on parts exposes you to CTB failure.
6. If you have assembled a design in which you will breathe exclusively with what your tank is filled with - absolute painlessness, no anxiety is guaranteed! You will either not feel anything at all and simply lose consciousness, or you will have various sensations that cause absolutely no pain. If you feel anxiety or discomfort with a properly assembled structure - I recommend that you think about whether you really want and are ready for CTB, or you still need to sort yourself out and you have other options but you are playing CTB for some reason.

 

[GasMonkey]

The tightness and ventilation of your exhaled air of your mask, bag or whatever you will be using is very important!

What mask have you used in your tests?

In an SCBA the seal is perfect at all times, a positive pressure is maintained inside the mask so is physically impossible for any external air to enter.

 

[Wunderkind]

What mask have you used in your tests?

In an SCBA the seal is perfect at all times, a positive pressure is maintained inside the mask so is physically impossible for any external air to enter.

Thank you for your concern. The first problem, I pressed the mask with my hand, which also affects the tightness. I used a medical mask for high concentration of oxygen, which also has an extremely negative effect. Me need to take the mask that you and other forum members mentioned earlier. Other options are extremely doubtful for CTB and are only suitable for testing, as in my case.

 

[Wunderkind]

I have discovered that there are quick coupling adapters that can be connected to normal Nitrogen pressure regulators, enabling them to connect to SCBA demand valves (which have a plug-in nipple). With these adapters is possible to reduce the costs of SCBA setups a lot and build them in every region.

Demand valves only need around 7.5bar pressure and N₂ regulators with low pressure output ranges (0-10 bar) are the cheapest ones.

View attachment 102081

These adapters go into the output/low pressure part of the system, so they are totally safe to use.

In what protocol is it used?
With a frequent flow of 15 liters per minute?
Or in the automatic gas supply mode when I take a breath?
If in automatic mode, what flow rate of liters should be set on the gearbox?

 

[GasMonkey]

There is no flow rate in SCBA, the demand valve supplies all the gas you need and maintains a positive pressure inside the mask at all times, guaranteeing that you only breath the gas in the cylinder.

The regulator must be set to supply the demand valve with the adequate pressure, which is ~7bar for most models (can be consulted in the manufacturer's documentation).

 

[forced2live]

There is no flow rate in SCBA, the demand valve supplies all the gas you need and maintains a positive pressure inside the mask at all times, guaranteeing that you only breath the gas in the cylinder.

The regulator must be set to supply the demand valve with the adequate pressure, which is ~7bar for most models (can be consulted in the manufacturer's documentation).

How to prevent carbon dioxide inhalation?

 

[GasMonkey]

SCBA masks have one-way valves for CO₂ exhalation.

 

[GasMonkey]

Just measured the plug-in nipple of the demand valve, it's 3/8".

 

[Wunderkind]

Does nitrogen have enough lift to accumulate at the top of a limited space, effectively displacing carbon dioxide and oxygen? Or is it better to use helium?
Thinking about making a large waist-length Exit Bag for use in the car. I don't have the strength to collect a mask with a breathing apparatus ...
The flow meter, the nitrogen of the tube is there, the bag is not so difficult, there are fears about the Exit Bag that is attached to the neck

 

[ph0enix]

is there anything to remember or be aware of using a helium cylinder in a car with outside temperature of ~ -5 degree celsius (C)…

also will the low temp affect the corpse?
(will be there for 5-10h)
push it's urgent

 

[Wunderkind]

Spoiler: Photo

@GasMonkey
I have a question if I can buy a full face mask. But there is no way to purchase a breathing apparatus. If you put a hose with a nitrogen supply of 15 liters per minute instead of filters, will it work?
Or air will come in from outside when you inhale

 

[GasMonkey]

is there anything to remember or be aware of using a helium cylinder in a car with outside temperature of ~ -5 degree celsius (C)…

also will the low temp affect the corpse?
(will be there for 5-10h)
push it's urgent

Nothing special about that temperature, is not that low.

@GasMonkey I have a question, is able to purchase a full face mask. But there is no way to purchase a breathing apparatus. If you put a hose with a nitrogen supply of 15 liters per minute in place of the filters, will it work?
Or will air get in from outside when you inhale?

How do you wanna connect the hose to the mask? 15 LPM will be too low for a mask, it has a low volume and your inhaling will demand more than that.

Are you from Russia? You are banned from buying on EU right? Can you buy to China?

 

[Wunderkind]

Nothing special about that temperature, is not that low.


How do you wanna connect the hose to the mask? 15 LPM will be too low for a mask, it has a low volume and your inhaling will demand more than that.

Are you from Russia? You are banned from buying on EU right? Can you buy to China?

I am not from russia.
I'm from Europe, I had an error with google translate.
I am very grateful to you and came to the conclusion that my ideas are very mediocre. Of the options, either use the classic Exit Bag, or a normal diving mask. I don't have the option to buy the latter. Question for you, if you use a regular Exit Bag, does it make sense to wear a medical mask to direct the flow of nitrogen to the face?

 

[GasMonkey]

does it make sense to wear a medical mask to direct the flow of nitrogen to the face?

No.

 

[QuieterTimes]

The one thing I can't work out is exactly how loose/tight the bag should be around the neck? Ii know it shouldn't be sealed/taped to the skin, but how loose should it be and how do you assess it?

 

[Teardrop2021]

The one thing I can't work out is exactly how loose/tight the bag should be around the neck? Ii know it shouldn't be sealed/taped to the skin, but how loose should it be and how do you assess it?

I'm wondering the same thing. I have an EEDB hood and it has elastic around the neck but is not tightly fitting. I read that CO2 is heavier than nitrogen so I guess it will get pushed down and the Nitrogen will remain?

 

[GasMonkey]

The one thing I can't work out is exactly how loose/tight the bag should be around the neck? Ii know it shouldn't be sealed/taped to the skin, but how loose should it be and how do you assess it?

The PPeH doesn't specify an exact gap size, just "firm but not tight".

I'm wondering the same thing. I have an EEDB hood and it has elastic around the neck but is not tightly fitting. I read that CO2 is heavier than nitrogen so I guess it will get pushed down and the Nitrogen will remain?

The neck fitting is nothing to worry about in the EEDB hood, since it has one way valves for CO₂ exhalation.

 

[BrokenOak]

The PPeH doesn't specify an exact gap size, just "firm but not tight".


The neck fitting is nothing to worry about in the EEDB hood, since it has one way valves for CO₂ exhalation.

Hey mate, as you seem knowledgable on these things, could you say whether this is going to work?

Picked up a Draeger SCBA which came with a LDV and a hose running off it (about 1m length) with that regular end (sorry not sure what they;re called)

My plan was just to get a 5L cannister of argon with a regulator and flow meter, get a short attachment hose onto the regulator and just heavily duck tape the other end to the mask hose.

Is that all going to work? Seems simple enough but i just have no exerience to SCBA.

 

[Wunderkind]

I'm wondering the same thing. I have an EEDB hood and it has elastic around the neck but is not tightly fitting. I read that CO2 is heavier than nitrogen so I guess it will get pushed down and the Nitrogen will remain?

What does he look like? Can you send a link? I'm just looking for anything but a homemade Exit Bag.

 

[Wunderkind]

What flow to put in the classic Exit Bag, 15 or 25 liters? Sorry for the stupid question, I'm confused

 

[GasMonkey]

Hey mate, as you seem knowledgable on these things, could you say whether this is going to work?

Picked up a Draeger SCBA which came with a LDV and a hose running off it (about 1m length) with that regular end (sorry not sure what they;re called)

My plan was just to get a 5L cannister of argon with a regulator and flow meter, get a short attachment hose onto the regulator and just heavily duck tape the other end to the mask hose.

Is that all going to work? Seems simple enough but i just have no exerience to SCBA.

So you have the mask and the demand valve.

You would need a pressure regulator (to send the demand valve the pressure it needs, which is 7.5 bar in the model that you have), quick coupling adapter to connect the demand valve to the regulator, and a NITROGEN cylinder with a purity rating of 2.8 (99.8%) or higher.

You could also get and SCBA regulator + air-to-nitrogen adapter.

Where are you from?

What flow to put in the classic Exit Bag, 15 or 25 liters? Sorry for the stupid question, I'm confused

15 LPM.

 

[color_me_gone]

The one thing I can't work out is exactly how loose/tight the bag should be around the neck? Ii know it shouldn't be sealed/taped to the skin, but how loose should it be and how do you assess it?

I seem to remember a "two finger" rule. It came either from the PPH, or Dr Philip Nitschke at Exit International.
You should be able to easily slip two fingers between your neck and the drawstring.
If you have trouble, then too tight.
If easy to slip three fingers, then too loose.

 

[Wunderkind]

Using nitrogen and a classic homemade Exit Bag, what is the best position to travel by bus? Lying, half-sitting, sitting?

 

[daveyb]

Hey folks, I must of read every post on this forum regarding this method, have my tank and diving reg but thinking of using a DIN with it now instead of the flow meter because I'd like to use the full mask set up, don't want any chance of staying when I finally come to using it but I'm confused with respirator masks etc, will the diving reg fit straight in, I want this method because I wanna be lights out rapid don't trust the exit bag method!