Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[QuieterTimes]

Ahhh you mean the EEBD hood.

Yeah that's totally viable for CTB, is a system intended exactly for the subject matter (to breath a gas from a cylinder while being isolated and protected from the external gas), which is precisely what you need to CTB. It works on constant flow.

The internal mask is for CO₂ exhalation via one-way valves. No problems with the neck fitting. It's much better designed than the average "TurkeyBag" that you craft at home, since it's a real commercial product used emergencies.

How does the black mask part stay in place over the mouth (does it fit snuggly over the mouth, using what to hold it in place?

Do you breathe the external gas through the black mask part, or just breathe it in the hood?

 

[GasMonkey]

More quick coupling photos

How does the black mask part stay in place over the mouth (does it fit snuggly over the mouth, using what to hold it in place?

Looks like is the fit on the head what holds it in place.

@outrider567 has done a lot of tests with the EEBD hood.

Do you breathe the external gas through the black mask part, or just breathe it in the hood?

You don't breathe any external gas at all, just the gas in the cylinder that enters the hood via the hose.

 

[BrokenOak]

I have seen and used myself a bunch of demand valves and all of them have the same plug-in nipple, I measured it and it was 3/8" width (~0,95mm)


View attachment 102360

View attachment 102361

Is this the kind of thing im looking for?

RS PRO Steel Female Hydraulic Quick Connect Coupling, BSP 3/8 Female | RS

uk.rs-online.com

 

[Wunderkind]

Help, I need an adapter from Drager to my nitrogen bottle (you can use a large or a small bottle, it doesn't matter)
Dräger PAS

 

[GasMonkey]

Is this the kind of thing im looking for?

Yeah but it needs to have the same thread size as your regulator.

 

[BrokenOak]

Yeah but it needs to have the same thread size as your regulator.

Yeah, of course. Easy enough to get adapters regardless of size.

So my mask was delivered earlier. Are they meant to be so damn hard to breathe through when not connected to anything? Feels like im gonna pass out after trying to take 4 or 5 breaths!

 

[GasMonkey]

Yeah they are not designed to be used without gas, but they don't really choke you or anything, I have worn SCBA masks with no gas connection for minutes.

 

[BrokenOak]

Yeah they are not designed to be used without gas, but they don't really choke you or anything, I have worn SCBA masks with no gas connection for minutes.

Fair enough. Think im pretty much sorted. One question about regulators though but, are they 'smart'?

What i mean is, say i buy a 10 bar regulator (will that be fine btw to use with a 7.5 bar mask?) will it only let more gas flow when the pressure in the hose between the regulator and mask drops below 10 bar? Like, its not going to try and keep forcing more air and cause a blow out? This seems obvious, like why wouldnt it work that way, but figured id make sure!

 

[Wunderkind]

Thanks to you, I managed to assemble SCBA. How the mask works cannot be described in words. I think SARCO works the same way. Exit Bag is undeniably working. But I don't trust myself as a designer. Special thanks to @GasMonkey for their support and assistance. Without you, I wouldn't be able to do anything. A little later I will provide photos and the name of all the components, if I succeed, I do not promise anything. I will give a brief description. This is a complete Dräger with a red button which I connected via an adapter to a nitrogen tank.

 

[GasMonkey]

say i buy a 10 bar regulator (will that be fine btw to use with a 7.5 bar mask?)

Mask is irrelevant to that, the regulator (1st stage) must be set to supply the adequate pressure for the demand valve (2nd stage), which you can see in the manufacturer's documentation (7.5 bar in your case). This adjusment is not needed if you connect to demand valve to an SCBA regulator, but in that case you would need an air-to-nitrogen adapter.

will it only let more gas flow when the pressure in the hose between the regulator and mask drops below 10 bar?

The regulator will maintain the configured pressure in the hose between it and the demand valve. If there is a drop in pressure it will allow more gas to pass until the pressure reachs the configured value again.

Like, its not going to try and keep forcing more air and cause a blow out?

Nope.

 

[QuieterTimes]

Thanks to you, I managed to assemble SCBA. How the mask works cannot be described in words. I think SARCO works the same way. Exit Bag is undeniably working. But I don't trust myself as a designer. Special thanks to @GasMonkey for their support and assistance. Without you, I wouldn't be able to do anything. A little later I will provide photos and the name of all the components, if I succeed, I do not promise anything. I will give a brief description. This is a complete Dräger with a red button which I connected via an adapter to a nitrogen tank.

Please post the component details, so they can be easily sourced. Thanks for the help!

 

[Wunderkind]

Please post the component details, so they can be easily sourced. Thanks for the help!

I purchased the Drager fully assembled with a red button and a mask. It includes a whistling pressure gauge (when the pressure drops below 50 bar), a lung apparatus and a reducer. All I had to do was buy a g 5/8 adapter and connect it to my nitrogen tank. The lung governed demand valve is one that maintains positive pressure in the mask. Blue Drager will not work, be careful. Very soon I will try to give more useful information.
In the last five pages of this thread, @GasMonkey and other forum members posted a lot of valuable information.

 

[Wunderkind]

Hello everyone again. As I wrote earlier, thanks to you, I was able to assemble SCBA and that's it required for method N2. I did not have a large budget, so all the components diligently searched on Ebay (you can use any site with ads). It was difficult, but the result exceeded all my expectations. I was able to find a seller who sold me fully serviceable Drager (Dräger) kit which is fully assembled by the factory. My kit turns on the reducer (breathing apparatus, I don't know how it's called correctly, on the pulmonary machine it supplies a pressure of 7.5 bar), a lung machine with positive pressure (this important, Drager with a blue button works on negative pressure), a pressure gauge with warning whistle that goes off at 50 bars. The Drager mask is new. Want pay attention, I was surprised at how comfortable it sits on the face. The mask is very comfortable. Tank 5 liters 150 bar, which is more than enough for this implementation. Adapter G 5/8 (mom) for my tank (it was also not easy to find). The cost of all my accessories does not exceed $250. I have almost all the components, except for the G 5/8 adapter and masks are not new, but in good condition and, what is important, from reliable and high-quality manufacturers.
Tank 5 liter 150 bar 50$ + nitrogen filling 10$
New mask 80$ (I also bought on Ebay probably cheaper than from the official representative)
Drager reducer, pressure gauge, lung machine 100$
Adapter from G 5/8 Drager to my tank $10

The length of the hose from the lung machine to the reducer is approximately 1.5 meters.

The main thing is to choose the kit that maintains positive pressure in mask is very important. With a negative breath, it is harder to do.
Sorry for my English, I use google translate.
@GasMonkey special thanks to you for your help! Thank you for pointing me in the right direction.

Spoiler: Photo

 

[NAB]

Hello everyone again. As I wrote earlier, thanks to you, I was able to assemble SCBA and that's it required for method N2. I did not have a large budget, so all the components diligently searched on Ebay (you can use any site with ads). It was difficult, but the result exceeded all my expectations. I was able to find a seller who sold me fully serviceable Drager (Dräger) kit which is fully assembled by the factory. My kit turns on the reducer (breathing apparatus, I don't know how it's called correctly, on the pulmonary machine it supplies a pressure of 7.5 bar), a lung machine with positive pressure (this important, Drager with a blue button works on negative pressure), a pressure gauge with warning whistle that goes off at 50 bars. The Drager mask is new. Want pay attention, I was surprised at how comfortable it sits on the face. The mask is very comfortable. Tank 5 liters 150 bar, which is more than enough for this implementation. Adapter G 5/8 (mom) for my tank (it was also not easy to find). The cost of all my accessories does not exceed $250. I have almost all the components, except for the G 5/8 adapter and masks are not new, but in good condition and, what is important, from reliable and high-quality manufacturers.
Tank 5 liter 150 bar 50$ + nitrogen filling 10$
New mask 80$ (I also bought on Ebay probably cheaper than from the official representative)
Drager reducer, pressure gauge, lung machine 100$
Adapter from G 5/8 Drager to my tank $10

The length of the hose from the lung machine to the reducer is approximately 1.5 meters.

The main thing is to choose the kit that maintains positive pressure in mask is very important. With a negative breath, it is harder to do.
Sorry for my English, I use google translate.
@GasMonkey special thanks to you for your help! Thank you for pointing me in the right direction.

Spoiler: Photo

View attachment 102428
View attachment 102429
View attachment 102430
View attachment 102431

It looks amazing!!! Well done!

 

[pipapo]

Hi guys, this might be a better place…

I am a bit confused with my exit bag preparation.
After preparing almost everything I wanted to try to fill the bag over my head.

The bag, (right hand side) I estimated to be around 35liters (30-40l).
On the left hand side you can see a full 60l bag as a comparison.

Now, using my flow regulator and my helium 200 bar 5l tank,
I connected everything and set the rate to 15l/min.
Then I "fully" opened the "shut-off valve" of my regulator.
It was quite noisy and the bag was completely filled after approx. 50 seconds.
That confused me because afaik even small bags should take like 2 minutes
to fully fill (PPeH) with the given flow rate and I though my bag is at least average/ above average in size.

Also, according to the loss of pressure of my regulator, nearly 10 bar were lost,
which means practically about more that 30liters were gone in this little time.

What's gone wrong?

According to a book I have, the shut-off valve of my regulator should not be completely
opened but more so adjusted such that...

"When the bag is filled after about 40 to 60 seconds, the flow speed is correct and corresponds to about 15 l/min.
Does it take longer or is it possible faster, the shut-off valve should be slightly adjusted."

This makes little sense to me because then it's more about a gut feeling about how to adjust the shut-off valve
and not the set flow rate which was put in the first place. Also there's no clear bag size info in that book
for this calculation so I don't know how many liters should be filled in 40-50s. Moreover, its confusing as the
PPeH talks about 2 minutes with the given flow rate of 15l/min.

I am also annoyed by my loss of helium as I'm only with 180bar/5l now and don't know If I should test again or not...? What do you think?

Anyone can help me with that ?

THANK YOU SO MUCH IN ADVANCE!!!

 

[Mare Imbrium]

Hi guys, this might be a better place…

I am a bit confused with my exit bag preparation.
After preparing almost everything I wanted to try to fill the bag over my head.

The bag, (right hand side) I estimated to be around 35liters (30-40l).
On the left hand side you can see a full 60l bag as a comparison.

Now, using my flow regulator and my helium 200 bar 5l tank,
I connected everything and set the rate to 15l/min.
Then I "fully" opened the "shut-off valve" of my regulator.
It was quite noisy and the bag was completely filled after approx. 50 seconds.
That confused me because afaik even small bags should take like 2 minutes
to fully fill (PPeH) with the given flow rate and I though my bag is at least average/ above average in size.

Also, according to the loss of pressure of my regulator, nearly 10 bar were lost,
which means practically about more that 30liters were gone in this little time.

What's gone wrong?

According to a book I have, the shut-off valve of my regulator should not be completely
opened but more so adjusted such that...

"When the bag is filled after about 40 to 60 seconds, the flow speed is correct and corresponds to about 15 l/min.
Does it take longer or is it possible faster, the shut-off valve should be slightly adjusted."

This makes little sense to me because then it's more about a gut feeling about how to adjust the shut-off valve
and not the set flow rate which was put in the first place. Also there's no clear bag size info in that book
for this calculation so I don't know how many liters should be filled in 40-50s. Moreover, its confusing as the
PPeH talks about 2 minutes with the given flow rate of 15l/min.

I am also annoyed by my loss of helium as I'm only with 180bar/5l now and don't know If I should test again or not...? What do you think?

Anyone can help me with that ?

THANK YOU SO MUCH IN ADVANCE!!!

Do you have a fliow meter for Helium?

 

[pipapo]

Do you have a fliow meter for Helium?

good point. the flowmeter
is indeed calibrated for argon and CO2, not helium. However the author of the book says it is suitable also for helium:

"The volume difference of about 10% for argon and Helium is not so relevant here. Comparison: A 10 ltr vessel contains at
1 bar about 10.2 ltr argon or 9.1 ltr helium
or 10l oxygen or 10l nitrogen."

But that would suggest the flow of helium would be fewer liters vis-à-vis eg argon .. which also makes little sense as it was rather too much than too little

i don't know if the author is wrong or the shut-off valve is the problem ^^

 

[GasMonkey]

Does it have an integrated flow meter? @Greenberg recommends that.

 

[pipapo]

Does it have an integrated flow meter? @Greenberg recommends that.

That's the pressure regulator:



"Flowmeter" is not explicitly mentioned in the description, just manometer. But the right one is flow in liter / minute and I can adjust it.

 

[GasMonkey]

Yeah it has a L/min indicator.

Using the formula from Dr Greenberg's blog, for using Helium on an Argon calibrated flow meter, you will have to set the flow rate at 4.7 LPM.

 

[pipapo]

Yeah it has a L/min indicator.

Using the formula from Dr Greenberg's blog, for using Helium on an Argon calibrated flow meter, you will have to set the flow rate at 4.7 LPM.

Thanks that sounds very plausible.

1,18 (Argon) / 0,37 (Helium) = 3,189

15 liter / min / 3,189 = 4,70

 

[Mare Imbrium]

Thanks that sounds very plausible.

1,18 (Argon) / 0,37 (Helium) = 3,189

15 liter / min / 3,189 = 4,70

This is a huge difference.

 

[Wunderkind]

During testing SCBA, Drager revealed some points:
1. The dial glows in the dark and it's funny
2. About 5 relatively deep breaths, or about 12 shallow breaths, the mask falls and you pass out or are in a state close to passing out. When the mask comes off, unfortunately, nitrogen starts to be used up, so I lost many liters of nitrogen. Nitrogen is lost because there is no way to turn off the pulmonary apparatus due to pre-syncope or fainting.
3. There is absolutely no pain and discomfort.
4. As I wrote earlier, the mask is very comfortable. I think all full face masks, regardless of manufacturer or purpose (for example, for scuba diving) are just as comfortable.

A small question.
If you exhale not much air, the valve is a little difficult to open. I don't know if this will somehow affect the superficial unconscious breathing. But even the smallest breath, due to the positive pressure in the mask, is done easily, as if there is no mask on the face. The largest and sharpest inhalation is also easy, Drager copes with it without problems.

 

[manukahoney]

Please excuse my ignorance - I am not the sharpest crayon in the box. This method, although simple to some, is kind of complicated for me, but given it's swift and painless it is the only method that I believe I can muster the courage to carry out.

Can anyone tell me if a 3kg (1m3) Nitrogen cylinder is enough to CBT? My understanding is that is 1000L, which is enough, but just want to check as it is smaller than I was expecting - I am wondering too, that given the size, would I need to set the LPM to something specific? I plan to use the EEDB hood regulator kit if that helps.

Also - I plan to purchase online Nitrogen in the guise of home brewing, might be a stupid question but given the danger of Nitrogen (if consumed in small spaces) how do they drop it off? I imagine it would be different everywhere, but yeah can anyone walk me through how they have received an online order of dangerous gas?

Lastly (for now), what happens to the remaining gas once you have reached death? Presumably it eventually seeps out of the bottom of the mask and into the area you're in - apart from an obvious note about dangerous gas, what is the risk to others when finding you? I am not sure if I will use a car or a room, either way I want to be 1000% sure that I put nobody else at risk and it would be great if someone has any tips on securely mitigating this.

Thanks very much to anyone that can help!

I've gotten my industrial flow regulator rather than EM and I'm confident this will work well as the nut goes all the way to the bottom so it should work. I'm gonna do some testing tomorrow

My oxygen tube is a lot thinner than I realised. It looked thickener in the photos

Hey - just wanted to know why you returned the regulator back to EM supplier but kept the EEBD hood? Am planning to purchase the full kit + Nitrogen and based in NZ, so would have same specs. Did you come across issues with fittings or something?

Thanks, sorry if you have already answered somewhere else!

 

[Mare Imbrium]

I am a bit confused with my exit bag preparation.
After preparing almost everyt try to fill the bag over my head.

The bag, (right hand side) I estimated to be around 35liters (30-40l).
On the left hand side you can see a full 60l bag as a comparison.

Now, using my flow regulator and my helium 200 bar 5l tank,
I connected everything and set the rate to 15l/min.
Then I "fully" opened the "shut-off valve" of my regulator.
It was quite noisy and the bag was completely filled after approx. 50 seconds.
That confused me because afaik even small bags should take like 2 minutes
to fully fill (PPeH) with the given flow rate and I though my bag is at least average/ above average in size.

Also, according to the loss of pressure of my regulator, nearly 10 bar were lost,
which means practically about more that 30liters were gone in this little time.

What's gone wrong?

According to a book I have, the shut-off valve of my regulator should not be completely
opened but more so adjusted such that...

"When the bag is filled after about 40 to 60 seconds, the flow speed is correct and corresponds to about 15 l/min.
Does it take longer or is it possible faster, the shut-off valve should be slightly adjusted."

This makes little sense to me because then it's more about a gut feeling about how to adjust the shut-off valve
and not the set flow rate which was put in the first place. Also there's no clear bag size info in that book
for this calculation so I don't know how many liters should be filled in 40-50s. Moreover, its confusing as the
PPeH talks about 2 minutes with the given flow rate of 15l/min.

I am also annoyed by my loss of helium as I'm only with 180bar/5l now and don't know If I should test again or not...? What do you think?

Anyone can help me with that ?

THANK YOU SO MUCH IN ADVANCE!!!

What type of cord do you use?

 

[pipapo]

What type of cord do you use?

just a regular elastic cord.

Now I have approx. 180bar*5liter = 900liter
I don't think there is much more time for testing now, hm?

Im afraid it's already risky ? But normally it should be fine I guess?
900/15 = 60 minutes

And regarding the shut-off valve of the regulator:
Am I right to open it fully ?

Thank you all.

 

[pipapo]

Thanks that sounds very plausible.

1,18 (Argon) / 0,37 (Helium) = 3,189

15 liter / min / 3,189 = 4,70

Can someone confirm?

 

[GasMonkey]

Can anyone tell me if a 3kg (1m3) Nitrogen cylinder is enough to CBT? My understanding is that is 1000L

You have made an error in your calculations, it's impossible for such a small cylinder to have that amount of gas. A 3L 200bar cylinder will have 600L of total uncompressed volume. At 15LPM that would last 40 minutes.

how do they drop it off?

To your house in a box.

apart from an obvious note about dangerous gas

It's not that dangerous coz you need an insane volume to fill big spaces like a room or a car.

 

[pipapo]

That's the pressure regulator:

View attachment 102448

"Flowmeter" is not explicitly mentioned in the description, just manometer. But the right one is flow in liter / minute and I can adjust it.

Thanks all so much for the replies <3

I want to add that the regulator above is designated for Ar/CO2.
Apart from the conversion problem, is there any other problem using Helium with this regulator ?

Or better/safer to use Helium?

 

[GasMonkey]

It would be better to use the regulator with the gas that it is designed/calibrated to work with, that's for sure.

You guys like to do weird combinations.