Does anyone know how to determine the fatal dose of Sodium Nitrite based on body weight?

[CmonAlready]

I've seen so many varying recommendations and failed attempts. I don't want to swing and miss, so to speak.

Does anyone have the formula to determine how much Sodium Nitrite is needed based on body weight from a legitimate source the the Peaceful Pill Handbook or the guides that used to be published here before all the media controversy made them remove specifics?

Please advise. I thank you in advance!

 

[2messdup]

I've seen so many varying recommendations and failed attempts. I don't want to swing and miss, so to speak.

Does anyone have the formula to determine how much Sodium Nitrite is needed based on body weight from a legitimate source the the Peaceful Pill Handbook or the guides that used to be published here before all the media controversy made them remove specifics?

Please advise. I thank you in advance!

I think the only failed attempts I've seen on here are where people have called for help, or accidentally been found, or the nitrite isn't pure enough. Otherwise the 25g rule seems very effective. But hopefully someone can answer and put your mind at rest.

 

[Eudaimonic]

The recommended dosage is 25g if normal weight and 35g if overweight. There's no formula to determine LD99, and the LD50 shouldn't be used as it's only for mice/rats and, again, does not establish LD99.

Just to give you an idea of how lethal SN is for an adult human: https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Sodium-nitrite#section=Reported-Fatal-Dose

 

[Darkover]

LD50 for SN is 180mg/kg body weight according to an established research. The recommended dose should be double that amount.

For 70kg body weight, lethal dose 50% is 12,6 gram, so I will take 21 gram

 

[Eudaimonic]

LD50 for SN is 180mg/kg body weight according to an established research. The recommended dose should be double that amount.

For 70kg body weight, lethal dose 50% is 12,6 gram, so I will take 21 gram

1. That's the LD50 for mice/rats. As PubChem states, the maximum lethal dose for adult humans is closer to 100 mg/kg. That said, IMO, taking 25g for most people (or maybe 20g if you're a smaller person; it's not just weight but also size) is prudent since success seems to cluster around that amount based on what little data we have. You have to take into account potential vomiting in addition to the lethal dose itself.
2. Doubling it does not get LD100 or even LD99

 

[CmonAlready]

I think the only failed attempts I've seen on here are where people have called for help, or accidentally been found, or the nitrite isn't pure enough. Otherwise the 25g rule seems very effective. But hopefully someone can answer and put your mind at rest.

Thank you for posting this here. I'm a complete noob. And unfortunately over 300 lbs so I don't have much faith in the standard 25 mg dose. There has to be a formula!

Thanks again!

LD50 for SN is 180mg/kg body weight according to an established research. The recommended dose should be double that amount.

For 70kg body weight, lethal dose 50% is 12,6 gram, so I will take 21 gram

What's your source? Respectfully. And thanks in advance!

I think the only failed attempts I've seen on here are where people have called for help, or accidentally been found, or the nitrite isn't pure enough. Otherwise the 25g rule seems very effective. But hopefully someone can answer and put your mind at rest.

25 g even though I weigh over 300 lbs. I'm not confident in that! Thanks again!

 

[Eudaimonic]

Thank you for posting this here. I'm a complete noob. And unfortunately over 300 lbs so I don't have much faith in the standard 25 mg dose. There has to be a formula!

Thanks again!

What's your source? Respectfully. And thanks in advance!

25 g even though I weigh over 300 lbs. I'm not confident in that! Thanks again!

Seems like 35g should be sufficient? 100 mg/kg x 136 kg (300 lbs) = 13.6g. So, that's 21.4g over the maximum lethal dose. Especially if you prepared a second glass, I don't see it being an issue.

Honestly, the 25g/35g recommendations are not scientific (I mean, who knows if the reason for the increased lethality is even the dosage itself; there are so many potential confounders and the sample size is too small, uncontrolled, and may suffer from survivorship bias), but they're the best we have.

Anyone more knowledgeable, please correct me if I'm wrong

 

[CmonAlready]

Seems like 35g should be sufficient? 100 mg/kg x 136 kg (300 lbs) = 13.6g. So, that's 21.4g over the maximum lethal dose. Especially if you prepared a second glass, I don't see it being an issue.

Honestly, the 25g/35g recommendations are not scientific (I mean, who knows if the reason for the increased lethality is even the dosage itself; there are so many potential confounders and the sample size is too small, uncontrolled, and may suffer from survivorship bias), but they're the best we have.

Anyone more knowledgeable, please correct me if I'm wrong

Truly appreciate it bud!

21.4 g over the maximum lethal dose? What did you base your math on? What's the source of your formula? Respectfully!

Thanks in advance!

 

[Eudaimonic]

Truly appreciate it bud!

21.4 g over the maximum lethal dose? What did you base your math on? What's the source of your formula? Respectfully!

Thanks in advance!

100 mg/kg is the maximum lethal dose for an adult human according to PubChem. You weigh 136 kg. 100 x 136)/1000 = 13.6.

35g - 13.6g = 21.4g, meaning that you'd be taking more than enough.

To give an example, I am ~65 kg, so the maximum lethal dose for me would be ~6.5g. Therefore, 25g is 18.5g over the maximum lethal dose in my case.

 

[ShatteredSerenity]

The PPH dose can also be extrapolated to higher weights:
35 g / 100 kg = 0.35 g/kg
0.35 g/kg * 136 kg = 47.6 g

There is no consensus on lethal dose for NA, so I'm finding a variety of values from different sources:
PPH: 35 mg/kg
EPA New Zealand: 33 to 250 mg/kg
Ohio State University: 5 to 50 mg/kg
Society for Analytical Chemistry: 32 mg/kg
University of Minnesota Agriculture: 22 to 23 mg/kg

The PPH estimate is reasonably in line with the others.

 

[Eudaimonic]

The PPH dose can also be extrapolated to higher weights:
35 g / 100 kg = 0.35 g/kg
0.35 g/kg * 136 kg = 47.6 g

There is no consensus on lethal dose for NA, so I'm finding a variety of values from different sources:
PPH: 35 mg/kg
EPA New Zealand: 33 to 250 mg/kg
Ohio State University: 5 to 50 mg/kg
Society for Analytical Chemistry: 32 mg/kg
University of Minnesota Agriculture: 22 to 23 mg/kg

The PPH estimate is reasonably in line with the others.

The PPH advises 35g for anyone over 100 kg. However, I don't know what they base the 100 kg cutoff on.

250 mg/kg x 136 kg = 34g, so I'm inclined to think that 47.6g is more in line with the proper dosage, but it depends where they're getting the upper bound from. Although, it kind of seems to me that vomiting would be a serious concern with that dosage.

Also, I found a reported lethal dose in humans as high as 300 mg/kg, but most seem to cluster around 250 mg/kg upper bound

 

[ShatteredSerenity]

The PPH advises 35g for anyone over 100 kg. However, I don't know what they base the 100 kg cutoff on.

250 mg/kg x 136 kg = 34g, so I'm inclined to think that 47.6g is more in line with the proper dosage, but it depends where they're getting the upper bound from. Although, it kind of seems to me that vomiting would be a serious concern with that dosage.

Also, I found an estimated upper bound in humans as high as 300 mg/kg, but most seem to cluster around 250 mg/kg upper bound

I don't know where PPH numbers come from either since they didn't cite their sources (tsk tsk), but I would assume that Philip Nitschke read the available journal articles and other references then made an educated guess. The 2019 PPH advised 15 g, then later editions raised it to 25 g without explaining why.

Drinking a 47.6 g solution of SN might be very difficult. Unfortunately there's no way to test, but if you mix that much you might want to prepare a second cup with 35 g in case you can't drink the first cup or immediately puke it back out.

For yet another data point, Stan's guide advises 100 mg/kg by bodyweight which would work out to 13.6 g at 136 kg, but he also says

The PPH will recommend more than this, it is not a bad thing. It is obvious that the more SN you ingest, the more likely you will succeed. This needs to be balanced with regard to how easy the drink is to consume as you do not want a thick milkshake consistency in the glass that is undrinkable.

Unfortunately there's no ethical or practical way to get precise lethal doses, and everybody's physiology will react differently, so at the end of the day we have to just guess and hope for the best.

 

[Eudaimonic]

I don't know where PPH numbers come from either since they didn't cite their sources (tsk tsk), but I would assume that Philip Nitschke read the available journal articles and other references then made an educated guess. The 2019 PPH advised 15 g, then later editions raised it to 25 g without explaining why.

Yes. I don't really trust the PPH, but since people seem to have the most success with 25g, it's likely what I'll be using.

Drinking a 47.6 g solution of SN might be very difficult. Unfortunately there's no way to test, but if you mix that much you might want to prepare a second cup with 35 g in case you can't drink the first cup or immediately puke it back out.

Agreed.

For yet another data point, Stan's guide advises 100 mg/kg by bodyweight which would work out to 13.6 g at 136 kg, but he also says

That figure is probably based on this source that the PubChem article cites: https://www.inchem.org/documents/pims/chemical/pimg016.htm

Unfortunately there's no ethical or practical way to get precise lethal doses, and everybody's physiology will react differently, so at the end of the day we have to just guess and hope for the best.

Yeah. I mean, there's a report of a 6g survival but only due to immediate intensive treatment. Of course, one could survive 25g or 35g with intensive treatment, so that doesn't tell us much. Also, I can't figure out what these 250 mg/kg or higher estimates are based on. I don't know if they're using case studies or extrapolating from the LD50 for mice/rats.

 

[nomoredolor]

I know you asked for specific formula and already received it. But wanted to also share helpful chart

 

[Eudaimonic]

View attachment 159479
I know you asked for specific formula and already received it. But wanted to also share helpful chart

What is this from? And what is it based on?

 

[APeacefulPlace]

What is this from? And what is it based on?

SN / Water Amount Lookup Table [ v2 ]

Updated from prior version. Changes : Different SN amount calculation, to reduce the variation based on bodyweight 1 tablespoon of SN assumed to be 18.5g instead of 30g ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Background : 100mg per kg is...

sanctioned-suicide.net

 

[cme-dme]

What's the risk of taking more SN than you need to? Is it just increased risk of vomiting?

 

[CmonAlready]

The PPH dose can also be extrapolated to higher weights:
35 g / 100 kg = 0.35 g/kg
0.35 g/kg * 136 kg = 47.6 g

There is no consensus on lethal dose for NA, so I'm finding a variety of values from different sources:
PPH: 35 mg/kg
EPA New Zealand: 33 to 250 mg/kg
Ohio State University: 5 to 50 mg/kg
Society for Analytical Chemistry: 32 mg/kg
University of Minnesota Agriculture: 22 to 23 mg/kg

The PPH estimate is reasonably in line with the others.

Thanks for the detailed response. But why aren't they all using grams universally instead of perplexing it with some using mg? It's frustrating enough!

What does the PPH reccomend in terms of how much water to consume with such higher doses? Do they recommend ml or oz? Fuck. My. Life.

 

[Kali_Yuga13]

I'm not the best with numbers but from the stuff posted it looks like 30-40 grams. Keep in mind that the PPH recommendation of 25g is more or less an overkill dose to guarantee enough absorbs in the stomach even if a person throws up. There's at least one documented accidental death with only 1g and I've read of another case where a person intended to "test" a teaspoon and died. The grams per kg is typical of how medicine calculates dosages. From images that members have posted, they diluted 25g in two small cups, a matter of ounces to wash it down in a gulp or two as it's reported to be similar to sea water so not something one is going to chug large amounts of.

 

[ShatteredSerenity]

What does the PPH reccomend in terms of how much water to consume with such higher doses? Do they recommend ml or oz? Fuck. My. Life.

The PPH just says to use 50 - 100 ml, which is consistent with the other sources. The only other advice is Stan's guide which says to use as little water as possible.

I'm not the best with numbers but from the stuff posted it looks like 30-40 grams. Keep in mind that the PPH recommendation of 25g is more or less an overkill dose to guarantee enough absorbs in the stomach even if a person throws up. There's at least one documented accidental death with only 1g and I've read of another case where a person intended to "test" a teaspoon and died. The grams per kg is typical of how medicine calculates dosages. From images that members have posted, they diluted 25g in two small cups, a matter of ounces to wash it down in a gulp or two as it's reported to be similar to sea water so not something one is going to chug large amounts of.

Another advantage to higher doses is that it causes death more quickly.

I've also read in medical reports that the antidote methylene blue was not as effective with higher doses of SN.

 

[CmonAlready]

I'm not the best with numbers but from the stuff posted it looks like 30-40 grams. Keep in mind that the PPH recommendation of 25g is more or less an overkill dose to guarantee enough absorbs in the stomach even if a person throws up. There's at least one documented accidental death with only 1g and I've read of another case where a person intended to "test" a teaspoon and died. The grams per kg is typical of how medicine calculates dosages. From images that members have posted, they diluted 25g in two small cups, a matter of ounces to wash it down in a gulp or two as it's reported to be similar to sea water so not something one is going to chug large amou

This admittedly may be the absolute most stupid question in recorded history: The plastic cap cup that comes on the top of a NyQuil/DayQuil bottle measures up to 30 ml. Is that 30 ml specific to said products due to density or would filling it to the 30 ml line with water, in fact, be 30 ml?

View attachment 159479
I know you asked for specific formula and already received it. But wanted to also share helpful chart

This is an phenomenal table! Wow. Thank you! Just curious as to its source? Thanks again!

 

[Eudaimonic]

This is an phenomenal table! Wow. Thank you! Just curious as to its source? Thanks again!

SN / Water Amount Lookup Table [ v2 ]

Updated from prior version. Changes : Different SN amount calculation, to reduce the variation based on bodyweight 1 tablespoon of SN assumed to be 18.5g instead of 30g ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Background : 100mg per kg is...

sanctioned-suicide.net

Unsure how accurate it is

I've also read in medical reports that the antidote methylene blue was not as effective with higher doses of SN.

Because methemoglobin levels rise more quickly, or is there another reason?

 

[Kali_Yuga13]

Is that 30 ml specific to said products due to density or would filling it to the 30 ml line with water, in fact, be 30 ml?

Not a dumb question. It's the same because ml is a measure of volume. Think of a glass kitchen measuring cup that has the lines on the side to measure both metric and ounces. It doesn't matter if you put water in it or something more viscous such as maple syrup.

 

[Eudaimonic]

To answer your question, the dose-weight relationship is nonlinear, so it's probably best to stick to the 35g recommendation. The LD50 of SN for an adult human is estimated to be 2.6g and the range of observably lethal doses spans 0.7-9.5g. So, 25g for <100 kg and 35g for >100 kg seems more than reasonable.

I suspect that the 250 mg/kg figure is based on the lethal dose range for mice/rats, but it should not be used to determine dosage.

Here's a post I made regarding this topic in case you'd like more information: https://sanctioned-suicide.net/thre...hal-dose-is-estimated-to-be-250-mg-kg.195634/