Afterlife proof?

[Xmac000]

That was exactly my point, the brain needs an articulate, plastic and organized physical structure to work properly.

I'm however not interested in the thread anymore, since as it shows in most comment people who want to push forward the 'afterlife' theories ignoring more than half of the underlying physics of the brain and how its evolution happened (it can be traced back to multicellular primitive lifeforms as you said) are those who want 'comfort' or such, which is a thing that I do not need as a primary necessity.
I care for what it's more likely to happen, and that's nothingness after death, considering all the data gathered until now. Now I'm back doing other things, thanks for answering.

You"ll be back.

 

[Mecha Man]

So, I haven't read the whole thread because it's goddamn enormous, but, here are my views on the matter...

First of all, obviously as many have stated, there's no way anyone can know for sure. That's elementary.

But more importantly, I don't know if anyone has mentioned or suggested this yet, but I believe that we live in a world that is not only completely incomprehensible, but simply has realities that are paradoxical by any and all means of rational thought.

Take existence in and of itself, for example. It would make perfect sense to me if nothing existed at all, anywhere. An eternal vastness of empty space; that, to me, is perfectly comprehensible. But things DO exist, and logic dictates that every effect must have a cause. So right there I see an inexplicable conundrum already. I think at this point it all comes down to two distinct possibilities: Either things in the universe have simply always existed, or there was a time when nothing existed, and then things somehow came into existence. I don't think either of these two scenarios can be explained or understood by any kind of human logic or rationality; therefore, whatever the truth is, it completely defies anything that we consider to be "possible."

I use this line of thinking to explain some of my views on other different kinds of things in life, be they philosophical, ethical, or what have you. The point is, the idea of something like a God creating the universe is completely ridiculous, but no more ridiculous than the idea of the Universe having come into existence without one. That's my view, anyway, and as such, if it's possible, so to speak, that God exists and he created the Universe, then it's also possible that there's an afterlife to which we all go. I have a lot of ideas on the nature of God and the world, but I won't get into that here.

Having said all that (and now to diminish my credibility, hahaha...) I have always believed in God and the afterlife, and I fully acknowledge and accept the fact that my only real basis for that belief is that I need it to be true to maintain my sanity. I also realize that this is obviously an extremely weak foundation for believing in something. But that's just the way it is : D

Edit: When I think back on it, I think I first started becoming truly suicidal when my brother made a whole bunch of extremely compelling arguments to me that God and the afterlife don't exist, and I believed him. He turned my head completely upside down, and a once disturbed human being (myself) was made all the more worse for the wear. I'm not blaming him or anything. I just can't cope with it. Even as a child I occasionally had panic attacks at the thought of God and heaven not existing, and just fading into oblivion. I have always had an irrational fear of not existing.

 

[KCN]

but no more ridiculous than the idea of the Universe having come into existence without one

meh, not at all. This paper shows some interesting clues https://arxiv.org/abs/1404.1207

obviously it requires a solid knowledge to be understood fully, but I won't definitely say that the universe cannot bootstrap itself without the intervention of an external 'entity', let's call it that way.

However, we'll see what happens when science brings back to life cryogenically preserved people. The outcomes will be amusing if resurrecting people will be a trend in the future.

 

[No Future]

Is there anyone here that has switched sides? Anyone that didn't believe in an afterlife until they were made to see the light? Anyone that did believe that now doesn't? Has anyone in this thread believe they were wrong when evidence was provided by the other side in this thread? Anyone have proof an afterlife exists?

Otherwise, this thread is just an opportunity to upstage one another with articles, studies, dreams, prophetic visions, hallucinations, fairytales, tea leaf readings, religious texts, bong hit philosophies, astral projections, séance experiences, anecdotal evidence and your grandmother's bran muffin recipe.

Confirmation-bias killed this thread almost immediately. No one's budging.

I like to pontificate as much as the next (see: this post), but shit-slinging and being snide because you're set in your beliefs and can't fathom another point of view is tiring and redundant. If there was definitive proof either way, the opportunity to be a snob here wouldn't even present itself - use that opportunity to be productive, and not constantly infer that your ideological opponent is just a simple idiot.

Discuss it - try and find parallels in your opposing beliefs; there may be correlations that aren't being considered, because everyone's a bit tense.

Relax, we'll all find out sooner or later.

 

[Asthenia]

I don't have any particular beliefs. I ran a mental experiment and I'm totally fine with either fading forever to black or living forever for no reason, though it might be in a form that I might despise if it's so.

However, we'll see what happens when science brings back to life cryogenically preserved people. The outcomes will be amusing if resurrecting people will be a trend in the future.

this is very interesting and the only way to solve all the chit-chat about the subject.

 

[Mecha Man]

meh, not at all. This paper shows some interesting clues https://arxiv.org/abs/1404.1207

obviously it requires a solid knowledge to be understood fully, but I won't definitely say that the universe cannot bootstrap itself without the intervention of an external 'entity', let's call it that way.

However, we'll see what happens when science brings back to life cryogenically preserved people. The outcomes will be amusing if resurrecting people will be a trend in the future.

So, I'm confused... is this article trying to say that something can come from nothing? Because I was always under the impression that this was impossible.

Edit: Ok... I didn't actually notice the title, but still... I don't know how anyone can say that something can come from nothing, unless the laws of logic have been redefined. But once again, my whole point was just that paradoxical things seem to be reality in some cases, from my point of view. Case in point: If things in the universe really DID just spontaneously come into existence.

 

[Mecha Man]

Is there anyone here that has switched sides? Anyone that didn't believe in an afterlife until they were made to see the light? Anyone that did believe that now doesn't? Has anyone in this thread believe they were wrong when evidence was provided by the other side in this thread? Anyone have proof an afterlife exists?

Otherwise, this thread is just an opportunity to upstage one another with articles, studies, dreams, prophetic visions, hallucinations, fairytales, tea leaf readings, religious texts, bong hit philosophies, astral projections, séance experiences, anecdotal evidence and your grandmother's bran muffin recipe.

Confirmation-bias killed this thread almost immediately. No one's budging.

I like to pontificate as much as the next (see: this post), but shit-slinging and being snide because you're set in your beliefs and can't fathom another point of view is tiring and redundant. If there was definitive proof either way, the opportunity to be a snob here wouldn't even present itself - use that opportunity to be productive, and not constantly infer that your ideological opponent is just a simple idiot.

Discuss it - try and find parallels in your opposing beliefs; there may be correlations that aren't being considered, because everyone's a bit tense.

Relax, we'll all find out sooner or later.

You seem to have this strange notion that most people are reasonable human beings.

 

[6477244ts5]

Is there anyone here that has switched sides? Anyone that didn't believe in an afterlife until they were made to see the light? Anyone that did believe that now doesn't? Has anyone in this thread believe they were wrong when evidence was provided by the other side in this thread? Anyone have proof an afterlife exists?

Otherwise, this thread is just an opportunity to upstage one another with articles, studies, dreams, prophetic visions, hallucinations, fairytales, tea leaf readings, religious texts, bong hit philosophies, astral projections, séance experiences, anecdotal evidence and your grandmother's bran muffin recipe.

Confirmation-bias killed this thread almost immediately. No one's budging.

I like to pontificate as much as the next (see: this post), but shit-slinging and being snide because you're set in your beliefs and can't fathom another point of view is tiring and redundant. If there was definitive proof either way, the opportunity to be a snob here wouldn't even present itself - use that opportunity to be productive, and not constantly infer that your ideological opponent is just a simple idiot.

Discuss it - try and find parallels in your opposing beliefs; there may be correlations that aren't being considered, because everyone's a bit tense.

Relax, we'll all find out sooner or later.

I've always said the only real answer is "nobody knows" but that seems too difficult for most people to admit. I have my preferences but I'd be lying if I made a declaration on something I can't know.

 

[Xmac000]

meh, not at all. This paper shows some interesting clues https://arxiv.org/abs/1404.1207

obviously it requires a solid knowledge to be understood fully, but I won't definitely say that the universe cannot bootstrap itself without the intervention of an external 'entity', let's call it that way.

However, we'll see what happens when science brings back to life cryogenically preserved people. The outcomes will be amusing if resurrecting people will be a trend in the future.

I've never seen something come from nothing just like I've never seen a ghost or spirit. Why then should i believe that the universe spontaneously created itself from nothing? Everything we know of came from something previously.

 

[Asthenia]

I've never seen something come from nothing just like I've never seen a ghost or spirit. Why then should i believe that the universe spontaneously created itself from nothing? Everything we know of came from something previously.

'once a small true vacuum bubble is created by quantum fluctuations of the metastable false vacuum'

I'm no expert but a quick look suggests that it might be this.
We need an expert to decipher the PDF.

 

[Mecha Man]

'once a small true vacuum bubble is created by quantum fluctuations of the metastable false vacuum'

I'm no expert but a quick look suggests that it might be this.
We need an expert to decipher the PDF.

I mean, I don't want to sound closed minded (I certainly know very little about physics), but I feel like no matter what the explanation ends up being, it's going to come down to a simple matter of either: Things (any kind of things) were always there, or they just suddenly materialized out of nothing, neither of which makes any sense.

 

[Asthenia]

I mean, I don't want to sound closed minded (I certainly know very little about physics), but I feel like no matter what the explanation ends up being, it's going to come down to a simple matter of either: Things (any kind of things) were always there, or they just suddenly materialized out of nothing, neither of which makes any sense.

well, it has to be one of the two.
I'm more inclined to think that everything has always been there, it is just shape-shifting

 

[Lisa]

So, I haven't read the whole thread because it's goddamn enormous, but, here are my views on the matter...

First of all, obviously as many have stated, there's no way anyone can know for sure. That's elementary.

But more importantly, I don't know if anyone has mentioned or suggested this yet, but I believe that we live in a world that is not only completely incomprehensible, but simply has realities that are paradoxical by any and all means of rational thought.

Take existence in and of itself, for example. It would make perfect sense to me if nothing existed at all, anywhere. An eternal vastness of empty space; that, to me, is perfectly comprehensible. But things DO exist, and logic dictates that every effect must have a cause. So right there I see an inexplicable conundrum already. I think at this point it all comes down to two distinct possibilities: Either things in the universe have simply always existed, or there was a time when nothing existed, and then things somehow came into existence. I don't think either of these two scenarios can be explained or understood by any kind of human logic or rationality; therefore, whatever the truth is, it completely defies anything that we consider to be "possible."

I use this line of thinking to explain some of my views on other different kinds of things in life, be they philosophical, ethical, or what have you. The point is, the idea of something like a God creating the universe is completely ridiculous, but no more ridiculous than the idea of the Universe having come into existence without one. That's my view, anyway, and as such, if it's possible, so to speak, that God exists and he created the Universe, then it's also possible that there's an afterlife to which we all go. I have a lot of ideas on the nature of God and the world, but I won't get into that here.

Having said all that (and now to diminish my credibility, hahaha...) I have always believed in God and the afterlife, and I fully acknowledge and accept the fact that my only real basis for that belief is that I need it to be true to maintain my sanity. I also realize that this is obviously an extremely weak foundation for believing in something. But that's just the way it is : D

Edit: When I think back on it, I think I first started becoming truly suicidal when my brother made a whole bunch of extremely compelling arguments to me that God and the afterlife don't exist, and I believed him. He turned my head completely upside down, and a once disturbed human being (myself) was made all the more worse for the wear. I'm not blaming him or anything. I just can't cope with it. Even as a child I occasionally had panic attacks at the thought of God and heaven not existing, and just fading into oblivion. I have always had an irrational fear of not existing.

MechaMan thank you for your post. You got down to THE core issue that humans all have (scientists and laymen alike). I would like to hear your thoughts more on the nature of God, the world and the afterlife. If you feel more comfortable PM me please. I think you are in tune and so your ideas may be close to the truth. Intrigued.

 

[Mecha Man]

MechaMan thank you for your post. You got down to THE core issue that humans all have (scientists and laymen alike). I would like to hear your thoughts more on the nature of God, the world and the afterlife. If you feel more comfortable PM me please. I think you are in tune and so your ideas may be close to the truth. Intrigued.

Well I certainly don't mind... I just didn't want to post a whole bunch of off topic stuff. I will send you a PM.

 

[Mecha Man]

That was exactly my point, the brain needs an articulate, plastic and organized physical structure to work properly.

I'm however not interested in the thread anymore, since as it shows in most comment people who want to push forward the 'afterlife' theories ignoring more than half of the underlying physics of the brain and how its evolution happened (it can be traced back to multicellular primitive lifeforms as you said) are those who want 'comfort' or such, which is a thing that I do not need as a primary necessity.
I care for what it's more likely to happen, and that's nothingness after death, considering all the data gathered until now. Now I'm back doing other things, thanks for answering.

I think part of the problem is that people have a hard time understanding some of your arguments (myself included) because they rely on, what seems to be, a deep understanding of high level physics; the kind that people who go to college and like, major in physics have to do to be able to understand. It would be impossible to convince someone that something is 100% true beyond the shadow of a doubt using arguments that they have a hard time even understanding. Maybe I'm wrong, and it's not really as complicated as all that, but it sure seems that way to me. I took basic level physics and Calculus in college if that's worth anything.

Also, like Xmac has said, if the evidence was so overwhelming and obvious, then there wouldn't be such a huge divide between believers and non believers. There wouldn't be reputable neuroscientists and Physicists who believe in God and the afterlife, which I'm pretty sure there are.

You certainly could argue that people who believe do so just because, as you (rather condescendingly) put it, want to defend their fairytales and quell their fears of the alternative reality. Can you really blame them? After all, I'm pretty sure one of our biological needs in life is the need to feel like our life has some sort of meaning or purpose, and most people who believe in God and the afterlife would say that life would be meaningless without God. Obviously most atheists seem to have found meaning in their lives, but that's a moot point.

I have little doubt that a lot of the people on here (or just in general) who are suicidal are so because they've lost their faith in God, and can't cope with it.

 

[Lisa]

Well I certainly don't mind... I just didn't want to post a whole bunch of off topic stuff. I will send you a PM.

Thank You

 

[6477244ts5]

I have little doubt that a lot of the people on here (or just in general) who are suicidal are so because they've lost their faith in God, and can't cope with it.

I have been suicidal for a long time and been in and out of such forums for longer than many members have been alive. I have to disagree with you as I have not met a single person in all that time for whom losing faith was their reason for being here. Doesn't mean it's not the reason for anyone...but "a lot" is not accurate. It's nearly entirely mental illness, physical pain, and financial/living situation...usually all three.

 

[Xmac000]

I have been suicidal for a long time and been in and out of such forums for longer than many members have been alive. I have to disagree with you as I have not met a single person in all that time for whom losing faith was their reason for being here. Doesn't mean it's not the reason for anyone...but "a lot" is not accurate. It's nearly entirely mental illness, physical pain, and financial/living situation...usually all three.

Uh you messed up the quoting i didn't say that, mecha man did. Requote his text so he knows your talking to him.

 

[6477244ts5]

Cannot edit that post for some reason. Half the time it lets me half it just spins and never loads...for example its letting me edit THIS post. All I did was hit reply. He'll figure it out.

 

[Asthenia]

most people who believe in God and the afterlife would say that life would be meaningless without God

The concept of meaning doesn't look reinforced by the hypothetical presence of a god (or more gods, there could even be a pantheon out there, even though I'm not a theist, let's just assume it for the sake of a mental experiment).

I mean, existence doesn't acquire a sudden value just because an untouchable superior entity tells you that you "were made for [insert random "purpose"]".

It would be no different than the master who tells the slave that his purpose is to be there for him, to serve, to obey, to do something because he's forced to do so.

"Meaning", to me, looks quite non-existent. All we do is indulging in a temporary adventure, for the lack of a better word.

 

[Mecha Man]

Cannot edit that post for some reason. Half the time it lets me half it just spins and never loads...for example its letting me edit THIS post. All I did was hit reply. He'll figure it out.

Its ok, I read your post and know you're addressing me : ).

So maybe I was wrong then! Wouldn't be the first time. Maybe there are actually very few people here who are suicidal because they can't cope with the idea that God doesn't exist. I would honestly be really surprised, though, if that were true across the world.

 

[6477244ts5]

Its ok, I read your post and know you're addressing me : ).

So maybe I was wrong then! Wouldn't be the first time. Maybe there are actually very few people here who are suicidal because they can't cope with the idea that God doesn't exist. I would honestly be really surprised, though, if that were true across the world.

Of course that is just my anecdote not some controlled study. I just don't believe based on reading forums and chats over all these years that loss of religion/faith is a driving force really. Surely there are some like that somewhere, but I'd bet the bank it's not anywhere near the number of people in mental/physical/financial pain from other things.

 

[Mecha Man]

The concept of meaning doesn't look reinforced by the hypothetical presence of a god (or more gods, there could even be a pantheon out there, even though I'm not a theist, let's just assume it for the sake of a mental experiment).

I mean, existence doesn't acquire a sudden value just because an untouchable superior entity tells you that you "were made for [insert random "purpose"]".

It would be no different than the master who tells the slave that his purpose is to be there for him, to serve, to obey, to do something because he's forced to do so.

"Meaning", to me, looks quite non-existent. All we do is indulging in a temporary adventure, for the lack of a better word.

It's a bit more complicated than that, from my view. It's not a simple matter of "life has meaning just because God wants us to do stuff for him." But if you want to look at it from the mind of the typical theist, ask any Catholic, and they will tell you that life is meaningless without God. And as I said, most atheists seem to think that life is meaningful.

As for me, since I suffer from existential anxiety, I strive for meaning, or significance. I long for it. I need it. I don't have an explanation for why, it's just the way I am.

 

[6477244ts5]

As for me, since I suffer from existential anxiety, I strive for meaning, or significance. I long for it. I need it. I don't have an explanation for why, it's just the way I am.

Everybody has that and if they say they do not they are lying to try and convince you and themselves they are in control. Some people find that meaning through spirituality...some through trying to explain everything in hard science so it's not a scary mystery...some both...in the end it's all trying to feel safe and get through life.

 

[Asthenia]

.in the end it's all trying to feel safe and get through life.

People who rely on science don't certainly look for safety... The answers they get are quite on the bleak side, since the universe doesn't really seem to care, from their findings.

 

[Asthenia]

It's a bit more complicated than that, from my view. It's not a simple matter of "life has meaning just because God wants us to do stuff for him."

To me, existence could even turn into a super funny playground where everybody can be whatever they are, still the existential "void" wouldn't go away.

As I said before, it's just a matter of spending your time without getting any proper closure. Because if the 'meaning' of life was revealed, there would just be left nothing more to do, since you'd have *all* the answers, and paradoxically existence would turn out to be kind of pointless again.

 

[6477244ts5]

People who rely on science don't certainly look for safety... The answers they get are quite on the bleak side, since the universe doesn't really seem to care, from their findings.

It's safety in understanding and the hope to control and use the knowledge. My point was it's all the same need in us...just different approaches.

 

[Mecha Man]

Of course that is just my anecdote not some controlled study. I just don't believe based on reading forums and chats over all these years that loss of religion/faith is a driving force really. Surely there are some like that somewhere, but I'd bet the bank it's not anywhere near the number of people in mental/physical/financial pain from other things.

Maybe you're right. One thing I'd never thought of until now is that maybe in many cases it's not just loss of faith but a combination of that and mental illness that cause people to become suicidal. However, even if the number of people who become suicidal due to a loss of faith is highly disproportionate to other causes, I feel like it still has to be a "large" number (I know that's a really relative term, but even if it's only, like, 100k people, I feel like that's significant.)

People are really stubborn too. It's the whole reason why people get so emotional in these debates. A whole lot of people will hold on to their beliefs no matter what the hell you tell them, so maybe it's extremely, extremely difficult to get a healthy minded person to reach a state where they're so broken because they've lost their faith (not that this would really be a good thing, but you know what I mean). In any case, maybe some of these statistics might be worth investigating

 

[Mecha Man]

To me, existence could even turn into a super funny playground where everybody can be whatever they are, still the existential "void" wouldn't go away.

As I said before, it's just a matter of spending your time without getting any proper closure. Because if the 'meaning' of life was revealed, there would just be left nothing more to do, since you'd have *all* the answers, and paradoxically existence would turn out to be kind of pointless again.

lol that is quite comical. And disturbing at the same time (for me). But I think that only really makes sense is if the purpose of life is just to find the purpose of life.... *getting dizzy*

 

[Asthenia]

It's safety in understanding and the hope to control and use the knowledge. My point was it's all the same need in us...just different approaches.

I tend to value more the approach of those who don't get trapped by personal beliefs and try to interpret the evidence that has actually been gathered.