Venting Why would anyone want to live in this world?

[Erdapfel]

Why should their enjoyment be a psychopathology but not your non enjoyment?

True. What is not pathological?

 

[Despondent]

I don't know but maybe they're the crazy one's

 

[itsamadworld]

I am not religious but even the Bible recognised the brutality of life in its totality:

Ecclesiastes 4 :

"And I declared that the dead, who had already died, are happier than the living, who are still alive.
But better than both is the one who has never been born, who has not seen the evil that exists under the sun".

One of my favourite compassionate philosophers is a man by the name of David Benatar. This quote eloquently sums up my views on why it is immoral to deliberately subject your unborn children to a world in which unfathomable and unthinkable pain exists:

"It is curious that while good people go to great lengths to spare their children from suffering, few of them seem to notice that the one (and only) guaranteed way to prevent all the suffering of their children is not to bring those children into existence in the first place."

I couldn't agree more. I don't have children, and biologically, I'm pretty sure I could have. My main reason. Because I don't want them to suffer like I did...My sister has three children, my brother two.... Everything was all good at first. My sister was all about being this God-fearing women and such a bleeding heart optimist wanted to save the world...paaaah...that didn't last long!!! ,Now she slams more red wine that I do and is just about as pissed at the world, like me ! Same with my brother, all his dreams were crushed too...life has a way of crushing dreams! Lol. Now, both my siblings are in marriages with spouses that don't manage money well, they both are the bread winners, one cheats, my brother and his wife are swingers, and they cannot divorce their spouses without potentially loosing too much monetarily to their spouses due to the laws of the system... alimony.. basically.... And the children get to suffer thru constant marritial battles and choas. Two of the five kids already can see the mental illness..maybe if my siblings had suffered sooner, like me, they wouldn't have had as many children or maybe none at all? Or maybe they just couldn't see my suffering whilest they would bully me as children, while I was busting 104 fevers...now they know, and I know my brother regrets having children, just like my dad. They both told me so...

 

[Ryan.s]

I couldn't agree more. I don't have children, and biologically, I'm pretty sure I could have. My main reason. Because I don't want them to suffer like I did...My sister has three children, my brother two.... Everything was all good at first. My sister was all about being this God-fearing women and such a bleeding heart optimist wanted to save the world...paaaah...that didn't last long!!! ,Now she slams more red wine that I do and is just about as pissed at the world, like me ! Same with my brother, all his dreams were crushed too...life has a way of crushing dreams! Lol. Now, both my siblings are in marriages with spouses that don't manage money well, they both are the bread winners, one cheats, my brother and his wife are swingers, and they cannot divorce their spouses without potentially loosing too much monetarily to their spouses due to the laws of the system... alimony.. basically.... And the children get to suffer thru constant marritial battles and choas. Two of the five kids already can see the mental illness..maybe if my siblings had suffered sooner, like me, they wouldn't have had as many children or maybe none at all? Or maybe they just couldn't see my suffering whilest they would bully me as children, while I was busting 104 fevers...now they know, and I know my brother regrets having children, just like my dad. They both told me so...

Just this post makes me want to CTB tonight. How depressing :(

 

[itsamadworld]

Just this post makes me want to CTB tonight. How depressing :(

My bad....it wasn't my intention, just the truth. That was my upbringing pretty much, hence why I'm depressed and on here. It sucks being highly sensitive too....cuz I saw the choas sooner than they did.

 

[Ryan.s]

My bad....it wasn't my intention, just the truth. That was my upbringing pretty much, hence why I'm depressed and on here. It sucks being highly sensitive too....cuz I saw the choas sooner than they did.

Brother, you didn't offend me at all. Some of the things you mentioned are reasons for my depression and wanting to die too. I think we relate. Thank you for sharing. Would you mind if I PM you?

 

[itsamadworld]

Brother, you didn't offend me at all. Some of the things you mentioned are reasons for my depression and wanting to die too. I think we relate. Thank you for sharing. Would you mind if I PM you?

Sure, You can pm me. I'm a sister, though :)

 

[Partial-Elf]

I'm 25, and it's been interesting to see people within five years of me on either side begin having kids (or be open about their attempts to, even if those attempts have been unsuccessful). It's interesting to examine their motivations: welcoming a person into the world and giving them the experience that is life is never one of them. Instead, I see:

• A desire for the attention and praise that comes from having kids. Lots of Facebook likes to be had, and everyone wanting to hold your baby, and a baby shower. It gets to be all about the parent (more heavily the mother) for a while
• A myth or cult of motherhood that romanticizes pregnancy, childbirth, the things that kids do. This is sort of the "Kodak moment"
• Cultural messages that tie femininity, religious piety, adulthood and womanhood to childbirth
• A desire to fulfill the expected and traditional life milestones, display and pass on wealth, and keep up with the Jones's
• A desire for a cute baby, like a cute dog or cat. Something you can dress up and take pictures of and laugh at the dumb things it does, but also show it kindness and affection and protectiveness
• A desire to strengthen and commit to a romantic relationship, or to display the strength of that relationship to the outside world
• As a way to feel like their future is still coming, that there are still unknowns in their life, and as a vessel for their unfulfilled dreams. I think some people get bored in their jobs and relationships and hobbies and don't see anything interesting once those things have all been settled. They breed because they need that sense of unknown–will Sally get the lead role in the play? Will Johnny make it into the college he wants? Will they find love and have kids of their own? To me this is the saddest one because it means they aren't interesting enough to give their life meaning without creating a plaything to watch struggle
• And of course failures of birth control

But as you can see, in every case where the pregnancy is intentional, it's always to fulfill psychological and emotional needs of the parents. In no case are they doing it because they are just so excited to share the joys of life in this world. I should also note that most people just take it for granted that they will have children because it's what everyone else does. They don't consider it a question of "if," but a question of "when." These rationales for reproduction are mostly under the surface, and they would probably not have thought about the question enough to articulate them in many cases.

 

[ChocolateCroissant]

Because they have serotonin and feel good chemicals in the right balance

 

[Iloveyouall]

I'm 25, and it's been interesting to see people within five years of me on either side begin having kids (or be open about their attempts to, even if those attempts have been unsuccessful). It's interesting to examine their motivations: welcoming a person into the world and giving them the experience that is life is never one of them. Instead, I see:

• A desire for the attention and praise that comes from having kids. Lots of Facebook likes to be had, and everyone wanting to hold your baby, and a baby shower. It gets to be all about the parent (more heavily the mother) for a while
• A myth or cult of motherhood that romanticizes pregnancy, childbirth, the things that kids do. This is sort of the "Kodak moment"
• Cultural messages that tie femininity, religious piety, adulthood and womanhood to childbirth
• A desire to fulfill the expected and traditional life milestones, display and pass on wealth, and keep up with the Jones's
• A desire for a cute baby, like a cute dog or cat. Something you can dress up and take pictures of and laugh at the dumb things it does, but also show it kindness and affection and protectiveness
• A desire to strengthen and commit to a romantic relationship, or to display the strength of that relationship to the outside world
• As a way to feel like their future is still coming, that there are still unknowns in their life, and as a vessel for their unfulfilled dreams. I think some people get bored in their jobs and relationships and hobbies and don't see anything interesting once those things have all been settled. They breed because they need that sense of unknown–will Sally get the lead role in the play? Will Johnny make it into the college he wants? Will they find love and have kids of their own? To me this is the saddest one because it means they aren't interesting enough to give their life meaning without creating a plaything to watch struggle
• And of course failures of birth control

But as you can see, in every case where the pregnancy is intentional, it's always to fulfill psychological and emotional needs of the parents. In no case are they doing it because they are just so excited to share the joys of life in this world. I should also note that most people just take it for granted that they will have children because it's what everyone else does. They don't consider it a question of "if," but a question of "when." These rationales for reproduction are mostly under the surface, and they would probably not have thought about the question enough to articulate them in many cases.

I once asked someone, "Then why don't you just adopt ?" He told me "because it wouldn't be my blood.", I really should have said "like anyone need or want more of your blood in this place."...
Having a baby is just a fetishized concept nowadays, I agree. Raising a kid from birth I guess is something different, it can really open the mind of some people on various things even if most of the time, as the kid grows, they get more and more abusive as they try to educate their kid. They don't think about consequences of subtle behaviors that they don't even notice from themselves. They are trapped in their life and money obligations and the kid has to give way to those.
Another thing that terrifies me is how almost every parents consider their kids as "just kids". Babies and kids are way more intelligent than adults, way more logical, their brain is not full of shit but as they grow they get diminished as they are raise to fit in society.
I remember a minister few years ago that said "Kids are not property of their parents. They are property of the State." It's kinda terrifying but it raise a good question. Why people should be able to reproduce their believes and behavior, even if they are toxic, through their kids ? Unfortunately, people got just upset.

 

[Partial-Elf]

I once asked someone, "Then why don't you just adopt ?" He told me "because it wouldn't be my blood.", I really should have said "like anyone need or want more of your blood in this place."...
Having a baby is just a fetishized concept nowadays, I agree. Raising a kid from birth I guess is something different, it can really open the mind of some people on various things even if most of the time, as the kid grows, they get more and more abusive as they try to educate their kid. They don't think about consequences of subtle behaviors that they don't even notice from themselves. They are trapped in their life and money obligations and the kid has to give way to those.
Another thing that terrifies me is how almost every parents consider their kids as "just kids". Babies and kids are way more intelligent than adults, way more logical, their brain is not full of shit but as they grow they get diminished as they are raise to fit in society.
I remember a minister few years ago that said "Kids are not property of their parents. They are property of the State." It's kinda terrifying but it raise a good question. Why people should be able to reproduce their believes and behavior, even if they are toxic, through their kids ? Unfortunately, people got just upset.

Couldn't agree more. It's crazy the psychological damage that even relatively stable and loving parents can inflict through those subtle behaviors. I also think it's so abusive and damaging to brainwash children into a religion, and to circumcise them.

 

[Cashewmilk]

Your original post is exactly what I feel and think! This world where horrible things happen, why? They can NOT happen, that's how it should be. We can't do many things in this world (like teleportation, time travel, making objects move with our minds, walking through a wall etc), so why do such horrible things exist, instead of not happening?

The beauty certainly doesn't outweigh the horror, the balance is way off.

 

[NefariousWish]

I want to die, but death is so foreign. I understand that it all goes blank, but it doesn't strike me as a friend if I were to personify it. I suppose that's because of pop culture.

 

[a.n.kirillov]

Because they have serotonin and feel good chemicals in the right balance

Yeah but this doesn't say much more than they feel good. It's like saying you are feeling cold because you have goosebumps or because the nerve endings under your skin are transmitting the signal "cold" to your brain; or that your brain is excreting stress hormones which signal "cold".
.
While the reason for your feeling cold might be that you are agarophobic, have lost your job because of that and didn't pay your electricity bill in six months.

 

[avoid_slow_death]

Rather complex question. Answer is, there is no answer. We simply have to choose what we do while we are here. Those options also include the right to not exist at all. For me, I like to help others whether it be materially or emotionally. Too much of a me too and survival mentality exists in this world and while it has its place, it is far overdone nowadays. So, I do my part when I can touching lives however I can while I choose to be here.

 

[toomuchtimetodie]

I can totally see where you're coming from! But think you meant tortured not tutored :)

Haha great spot... If we were 'tutored' properly and not badly the world may not be so bad.

 

[Mr2005]

And why would you want to reproduce and put another person in this situation? I consider reproduction to be a severely negative moral act and was trying to think of an equivalent. The closest I got was drunk driving, very drunk. Because you're selfishly rolling the dice on other people's suffering, whether it's the people you could hit in other cars or the child who could experience horrific traumas beyond your control. Also, I'd say most people are intoxicated when they decide to roll those dice–whether it's alcohol, the strength of social norms around reproduction, fantasies about dressing babies up in baby clothes, picturing an idealized version of their offspring, infatuation with their partner, etc.

I guess this only applies if you've felt a certain degree of suffering, though. I do think there are a lot of people who just haven't reached that threshold to realize how bad things are, or are too strongly propagandized to realize it regardless of how much they suffer.

Immoral act? I've read enough of this crap to see how some form of radicalisation could quite easily take place in these echo chambers. What's it all about really? Making you feel better at a guess and personally the whole species dying out because I'm not happy strikes me as far more selfish than having kids ever could be. There was a post the other day about these cute beetle babies. Where was the moral outrage over that? Nowhere because we're not beetles. It's all about you. All these people claiming to care about the suffering of something that doesn't exist. Total B.S. Having kids is one of the few things that can change a person for the better because they have someone else to think about

 

[toomuchtimetodie]

The few pleasures of this world do not outweigh the pain:
-. An orgasm is 10 seconds or so- then a life of time of suffering.
-. The drugs and alcohol all have their side-effects, and the highs are too short-lived.
-. The hormone highs only last for 2 years max. in new relationships/or post baby highs
-. We are only young and beautiful for a small portion of our lives, and then the system humiliates us as we get older so they can sell their shit and make money off elderly humans by forcing them to live in nursing homes!
-. Most of our lives we slave away in a job we hate.. And we are forced to work, or go to prison..I don't know many people that are NOT burned out with their job!
-. Even if one has it all; (looks, money, youth, intelligence, good disposition, don't have to work, or they actually like their jobs..) These things could all be taken away at the drop of a flask, like a beautiful woman who gets acid thrown in her face!
-. How controlling, cruel and demanding, competitive, aggressive, and selfish human nature really is...
Etc....I think it's better not to introduce a human into this prison-like planet. I don't think it will ever improve either...Unless human nature will change, and the planet will not always be trying to harm us....

I like how you convey yourself I will have to look at more of your posts.

I am not religious but even the Bible recognised the brutality of life in its totality:

Ecclesiastes 4 :

"And I declared that the dead, who had already died, are happier than the living, who are still alive.
But better than both is the one who has never been born, who has not seen the evil that exists under the sun".

One of my favourite compassionate philosophers is a man by the name of David Benatar. This quote eloquently sums up my views on why it is immoral to deliberately subject your unborn children to a world in which unfathomable and unthinkable pain exists:

"It is curious that while good people go to great lengths to spare their children from suffering, few of them seem to notice that the one (and only) guaranteed way to prevent all the suffering of their children is not to bring those children into existence in the first place."

Fookin brilliant

 

[AcornUnderground]

Unfortunately, we here on this forum have jaded minds for one reason or another, including myself. And I do understand mental illness as well as physical illness. I have pretty bad anxiety, more than a touch of OCD, and endured a major depressive episode in my 20's, ironically set off by meto use, that derailed my life for well over a year. I didn't realize it, but I've been a functional alcoholic since the age of 16. I'm now 41. It is undoubtedly one of the reasons that I developed a terrible illness.

BUT. I had so much beauty in my life, it blows me away to think about it. I was blessed in countless ways, truly enjoyed friends, strangers, family, work, adventures, food and way too much drink. I was blessed with two beautiful children - a whole new dimension of joy. Life can be, and often is, an incredible gift.

And yet. Life can also be literal Hell on Earth. Unspeakable suffering. No way out but death itself. Most things are fixable. Still, many are not.

But to ask - why would anyone want to live in the world? I can promise you there are a thousand reasons and more people than most will be blessed enough to never, ever see the world in the context that those of us on this forum do. This is the reason you are alone, ostracized in suicidal thinking, driven to self destruction in the company of just an online forum. We are the minority. We are unfortunate. It's a shitty hand, and it really sucks.

 

[Partial-Elf]

Total B.S. Having kids is one of the few things that can change a person for the better because they have someone else to think about

And even there, you justify reproduction for the parents' benefit and not for the benefit of the child. Lol.

Me choosing not to have children and thinking it's wrong to do so isn't going to make the human race go extinct. I'm not the ruler of the world and I don't believe in Kant's categorical imperative. And not reproducing doesn't make me feel any better at all–it just means I won't create people to suffer through all this.

I'm well aware that these ideas will never be mainstream, and I'm sure humans will continue marching along. Try not to lose any sleep over it.

 

[Mr2005]

And even there, you justify reproduction for the parents' benefit and not for the benefit of the child. Lol.

Me choosing not to have children and thinking it's wrong to do so isn't going to make the human race go extinct. And it doesn't make me feel any better at all–it just means I won't create people to suffer through all this.

I'm well aware that those ideas will never attain mainstream status, and I'm sure that humans will continue marching along. Try not to lose any sleep over it.

Just gut feeling here but it tells me the people who should be held accountable for making this a shithole would rather blame it on people having kids and for obvious reasons. Firstly what are they doing to make it better? Secondly they can say they never asked to be here thus avoiding all sense of responsibility. I'd question bringing a child into this too and I find that a real shame. It's letting other people that aren't worth the time of day ruin our lives

 

[itsallover]

I understand where you are coming from. When I was in school I kept pushing on to graduate and make something of myself only to have it all taken away by cruel and unjust doctors and nurses. I worked so hard and became something until the medical and legal system took it all away. I don't know if I will ever be the same happy go lucky person I was before my physical ailments even if I come to some sort of resolution to my debilitating symptoms. I feel a disgust for people and society now that teeters on the point of wanting to hurt somebody, but of course I hold myself back. I have become trapped in my own body and home to the point where I get paranoid of others when I go outside. I don't mean to sulk as I know there are countless other stories like mine as someone pointed out the crazy amount of deaths in this country due to doctors. I have been fighting for four years but the past couple of months it seems like I've lost all hopes of returning to my profession and don't even know if I want to.

 

[waterbottleman]

If you're not a piece of shit like me I could see why living would be fun.

 

[Partial-Elf]

Just gut feeling here but it tells me the people who should be held accountable for making this a shithole would rather blame it on people having kids and for obvious reasons. Firstly what are they doing to make it better? Secondly they can say they never asked to be here thus avoiding all sense of responsibility. I'd question bringing a child into this too and I find that a real shame. It's letting other people that aren't worth the time of day ruin our lives

I think we agree more than we disagree. I blame the corrupt and powerful people who exploit the masses much more than I blame the masses for reproducing. I don't hold it against my parents as they are normal people who follow our culture's guidance.

Also, I do political organizing to try to change things in whatever small way so that the future can be better. As a teacher, my career is also literally all about trying to make things better in the future. That being said, I am very pessimistic that this world will be worth living in anytime soon.

 

[Mr2005]

I think we agree more than we disagree. I blame the corrupt and powerful people who exploit the masses much more than I blame the masses for reproducing. I don't hold it against my parents as they are normal people who follow our culture's guidance.

Also, I do political organizing to try to change things in whatever small way so that the future can be better. As a teacher, my career is also literally all about trying to make things better in the future. That being said, I am very pessimistic that this world will be worth living in anytime soon.

That's understandable it's just for some that seems to be what they want. Brings comfort if they're going everyone else is. I hate that and I couldn't be sure which it was. Brings me a great deal of pain because it's the only place I have any hope left. Not much admittedly but I do what I can. I've learned to just ignore what people say and watch what they do because they're full of shit a lot of the time. I'm a realist because lifes made me but I'm still an idealist because I know things could be better. It's annoying not being able to change other people. About the best I can realistically do is not make things any worse and hope no one hates me too much for what I have to say.

 

[Partial-Elf]

That's understandable it's just for some that seems to be what they want. Brings comfort if they're going everyone else is. I hate that and I couldn't be sure which it was. Brings me a great deal of pain because it's the only place I have any hope left. Not much admittedly but I do what I can. I've learned to just ignore what people say and watch what they do because they're full of shit a lot of the time. I'm a realist because lifes made me but I'm still an idealist because I know things could be better. It's annoying not being able to change other people. About the best I can realistically do is not make things any worse and hope no one hates me too much for what I have to say.

What's hard for me is I see how great the world and my life COULD be, and I see how far short everything has fallen. I see the beauty and the potential, but also the astounding loss.

 

[a.n.kirillov]

Immoral act? I've read enough of this crap to see how some form of radicalisation could quite easily take place in these echo chambers. What's it all about really? Making you feel better at a guess and personally the whole species dying out because I'm not happy strikes me as far more selfish than having kids ever could be. There was a post the other day about these cute beetle babies. Where was the moral outrage over that? Nowhere because we're not beetles. It's all about you. All these people claiming to care about the suffering of something that doesn't exist. Total B.S. Having kids is one of the few things that can change a person for the better because they have someone else to think about

I see how you would think that, but it has nothing to do with echo chambers. Antinatalism is as old as human civilization and countless, major, thinkers and artists throughout the millennia have uttered these sentiments. Even the bible has a few (Ecclesiastes being one of them).

It is not about the suffering of non existent beings btw, but the suffering of the beings that come about if you procreate and the risk you are imposing on them. Should be obvious right?

 

[Mr2005]

What's hard for me is I see how great the world and my life COULD be, and I see how far short everything has fallen. I see the beauty and the potential, but also the astounding loss.

Exactly. It seems that's the part not everyone wants to see because it's more painful. I don't see it that way. Environment is so critical to mental wellbeing why would I want to surround myself in ugliness? If it makes them feel better they're an extremely selfish person and none of the problems with the world are why they're here. It's just something to blame it on and find common ground with other people doing the same thing. Call me a cynic but I want to be wrong.

 

[AcornUnderground]

Exactly. It seems that's the part not everyone wants to see because it's more painful. I don't see it that way. Environment is so critical to mental wellbeing why would I want to surround myself in ugliness? If it makes them feel better they're an extremely selfish person and none of the problems with the world are why they're here. It's just something to blame it on and find common ground with other people doing the same thing. Call me a cynic but I want to be wrong.

I have a very hard time with this. I'm still living in the same world I lived in as a happy, successful and healthy Mom. I'm just bedridden and draining my bank account while doing it. Everything I had is still right in front of me, but it's really gone. Daily torture.

 

[Mr2005]

I see how you would think that, but it has nothing to do with echo chambers. Antinatalism is as old as human civilization and countless, major, thinkers and artists throughout the millennia have uttered these sentiments. Even the bible has a few (Ecclesiastes being one of them).

It is not about the suffering of non existent beings btw, but the suffering of the beings that come about if you procreate and the risk you are imposing on them. Should be obvious right?

Yeah my scepticism comes about with why people have taken to it. What the true motivations are. It's normally not what they're making out.

I have a very hard time with this. I'm still living in the same world I lived in as a happy, successful and healthy Mom. I'm just bedridden and draining my bank account while doing it. Everything I had is still right in front of me, but it's really gone. Daily torture.

Oh I know the feeling but does it have anything to do with famine for example? None whatsoever. Those problems are entirely separate