Discussion Why do people (especially the more authoritarian leftist, i'm a social democrat myself) hate Israel's existence as a whole so much?

[ren1bas]

I do not think that whatever is going on in Gaza is an excuse to abolish the State of Israel. Abolishing Israel would result in IMMENSE human suffering.

 

[Dejected 55]

Since you asked... let's just boil this down a bit...

The only reason Israel exists as a state is because post-WWII nobody wanted a mass influx of Jewish refugees in their country. Full stop. The US, for instance, famously rejected Jewish refugees fleeing the Nazis, a lot of whom had to return to Nazi Germany and die in the Holocaust.

After the war, a lot of Jewish people had no place to go... and countries like the US and Britain didn't want them all living there. We can be as pro-Israel as you want, but the honest truth is at least the people in power in those countries that are pro-Israel do NOT want them all coming to their countries to settle in. Make of that what you will.

So... the US and Britain primarily... decided to make a Jewish state in the middle east. You know their "promised land" or whatever. Jewish people who hadn't been back there for generations, whether they originally left willingly or not, were encouraged to move back. But the problem was... lots of Arabic people, many muslim, were living there and had been for quite a while. Land was taken away, sometimes quite arbitrarily, to make room for the influx of Jewish people. Even land that was bought, it was kind of like imminent domain where the government comes and forces you to sell some or all of your land and they name the price and you pretty much have to accept "or else."

There was never really a chance at a Palestine with this mindset. Also, each group had legitimate claims to some areas in terms of historical or religious significance to them, and neither side wanted to fully share. That said, Israel has had a lot of Palestinians living there in peace and many citizens of Israel do not at all support what their government is doing.

In the beginning, there was some expected backlash from Arabs who felt like they were being run out of their homes and land unfairly. Nobody took their side, often not even surrounding Arab nations. Israel had US and Britain backing from the beginning. And while it is true as far as I'm aware that the first violence in the form of war/attacks came from Arabs against the Jewish people... can you truly blame them?

Everyone who supports Israel goes with the "they were there first so it is their land" theory... except... nobody applies that unilaterally. How about the US... remember those "Native Americans" who had pretty much everything stolen from them? They were here first... Imagine if Russia or China loads up and comes to the US one day and says, this country really should belong to those Natives... so we're going to take most of the land and give it to them, and you other Americans need to fuck off on whatever land we deem fit for now until we decide to take that from you later too.

Can you imagine that going over well here? I can't. But it would be just as fair.

Or even just immigration... the US right now has a hard-on for wanting to expel illegal immigrants... "it's an invasion" or whatever... you know, kind of like when all those Jewish refugees from Germany who wanted a better life "invaded" the middle east... But fuck remembering history... When it happens to you, the immigrants are bad and must be repelled... when you're the one sending them somewhere else, then you want them to be welcomed.

Are there terrorists in the middle east doing horrible shit? Yep. Are many of them Arabs or Palestinians. Sure. I won't defend the horrible. But I will say... see what happens if someone comes to take your home and land away... see what you do... especially if you feel like your friends aren't helping to defend you and you're on your own... you might get proactive too. It's not great, but it's life.

There had to be a half dozen or more BETTER ways to take care of the Jewish refugees post-WWII... but the truth that I started with was, the major powers didn't want them in their country. If they did, we'd be in a different world right now. Instead, the powers that be after the war cared less about Jewish refugees and more about keeping them out of their back yards... and said "here, you guys figure it out over here."

I could go on...

 

[ren1bas]

Since you asked... let's just boil this down a bit...

The only reason Israel exists as a state is because post-WWII nobody wanted a mass influx of Jewish refugees in their country. Full stop. The US, for instance, famously rejected Jewish refugees fleeing the Nazis, a lot of whom had to return to Nazi Germany and die in the Holocaust.

After the war, a lot of Jewish people had no place to go... and countries like the US and Britain didn't want them all living there. We can be as pro-Israel as you want, but the honest truth is at least the people in power in those countries that are pro-Israel do NOT want them all coming to their countries to settle in. Make of that what you will.

So... the US and Britain primarily... decided to make a Jewish state in the middle east. You know their "promised land" or whatever. Jewish people who hadn't been back there for generations, whether they originally left willingly or not, were encouraged to move back. But the problem was... lots of Arabic people, many muslim, were living there and had been for quite a while. Land was taken away, sometimes quite arbitrarily, to make room for the influx of Jewish people. Even land that was bought, it was kind of like imminent domain where the government comes and forces you to sell some or all of your land and they name the price and you pretty much have to accept "or else."

There was never really a chance at a Palestine with this mindset. Also, each group had legitimate claims to some areas in terms of historical or religious significance to them, and neither side wanted to fully share. That said, Israel has had a lot of Palestinians living there in peace and many citizens of Israel do not at all support what their government is doing.

In the beginning, there was some expected backlash from Arabs who felt like they were being run out of their homes and land unfairly. Nobody took their side, often not even surrounding Arab nations. Israel had US and Britain backing from the beginning. And while it is true as far as I'm aware that the first violence in the form of war/attacks came from Arabs against the Jewish people... can you truly blame them?

Everyone who supports Israel goes with the "they were there first so it is their land" theory... except... nobody applies that unilaterally. How about the US... remember those "Native Americans" who had pretty much everything stolen from them? They were here first... Imagine if Russia or China loads up and comes to the US one day and says, this country really should belong to those Natives... so we're going to take most of the land and give it to them, and you other Americans need to fuck off on whatever land we deem fit for now until we decide to take that from you later too.

Can you imagine that going over well here? I can't. But it would be just as fair.

Or even just immigration... the US right now has a hard-on for wanting to expel illegal immigrants... "it's an invasion" or whatever... you know, kind of like when all those Jewish refugees from Germany who wanted a better life "invaded" the middle east... But fuck remembering history... When it happens to you, the immigrants are bad and must be repelled... when you're the one sending them somewhere else, then you want them to be welcomed.

Are there terrorists in the middle east doing horrible shit? Yep. Are many of them Arabs or Palestinians. Sure. I won't defend the horrible. But I will say... see what happens if someone comes to take your home and land away... see what you do... especially if you feel like your friends aren't helping to defend you and you're on your own... you might get proactive too. It's not great, but it's life.

There had to be a half dozen or more BETTER ways to take care of the Jewish refugees post-WWII... but the truth that I started with was, the major powers didn't want them in their country. If they did, we'd be in a different world right now. Instead, the powers that be after the war cared less about Jewish refugees and more about keeping them out of their back yards... and said "here, you guys figure it out over here."

I could go on...

1. The idea of a jewish state in the modern sense was actually planned since the 1890s
2. Jews actually started moving to the british mandate before the state of israel was created and were actually a pretty significant portion of the population. There's also various jewish groups that never left Israel
3. Israel only had US and Britain backing since the Yom Kippur war, while arabs almost instantly gained soviet support. Israel was actually invaded by every single neighbor they had during the independence war. Nobody was actually kicked out of their houses since the land Israel was later created on was bought out by the Rotschilds and various other people.
4. I would definetly support the existence of a native american state had they been a single united ethnicity.

I believe that the holocaust has proven that jews cannot trust other people with their safety, as such a state was definetly required. And I believe that the land of Israel/Palestine was the best solution, since it's relatively small, is the holy land of Jews, not anybody's holy land (Al Aqsa is less holy for muslims than Israel is holy for Jews) and arabs already had 19 states most of which are WAY larger than Israel. And it's not even like Israel is on arable land. Plus Al Aqsa was located on the Palestinian side of Jerusalem, so no harm was done in my opinion. I suppose both sides are evil in the gaza conflict (one rapes innocent civilians and takes hostages and the other bombs thousands of civilians), but the boat to abolish the idea of Israel has LONG sailed. I would also say that, from a utilitarian perspective, Israel is quite valuable, since it's the only actual democracy in the middle east and is one of the most innovative states in the world.

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

Leftist are always on the side of the weaker party. They don´t accapt the world as it is and that in the end only the right of the stronger governs.

 

[Dejected 55]

Leftist are always on the side of the weaker party. They don´t accapt the world as it is and that in the end only the right of the stronger governs.

What does that even mean, though. Weaker people need more support than strong people in these situations. How would Israel fare if they didn't have money and weapons from the USA, for example?

It's all a huge cluster fuck in large part because outsiders (US and Britain) poked their nose into it and tried to force a solution where one was not happening naturally.

I'm not against the concept of Israel, just like I'm for Palestine. It's just that Israel was formed very ham-handedly by powers in the world that had no place doing what they did.

And at this point the world is kind of forced to make it work... but note that with increasing support by other nations in the UN for a Palestinian state, there is still resistance to that reality.

It doesn't help that there are often terrorist factions in charge of what is left of Palestine... but then... back when the US was forming, declaring their independence from Britain, and starting the revolutionary war against them... our ancestors used terrorist tactics of the day to defeat the larger enemy in Britain that we were fighting. History writes it differently mostly because we won that war... the underdogs that we were won the right to govern ourselves.

The middle east is.a cluster fuck that people living there don't even support their governments but largely can't do anything about it.

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

What does that even mean, though. Weaker people need more support than strong people in these situations. How would Israel fare if they didn't have money and weapons from the USA, for example?

It's all a huge cluster fuck in large part because outsiders (US and Britain) poked their nose into it and tried to force a solution where one was not happening naturally.

I'm not against the concept of Israel, just like I'm for Palestine. It's just that Israel was formed very ham-handedly by powers in the world that had no place doing what they did.

And at this point the world is kind of forced to make it work... but note that with increasing support by other nations in the UN for a Palestinian state, there is still resistance to that reality.

It doesn't help that there are often terrorist factions in charge of what is left of Palestine... but then... back when the US was forming, declaring their independence from Britain, and starting the revolutionary war against them... our ancestors used terrorist tactics of the day to defeat the larger enemy in Britain that we were fighting. History writes it differently mostly because we won that war... the underdogs that we were won the right to govern ourselves.

The middle east is.a cluster fuck that people living there don't even support their governments but largely can't do anything about it.

The Jews are the stronger/smarter ones. They used Britain and use the USA to achieve their goals. Concerning the USA, were 50% of all Jews live, it is a win-win situation: The territory of Israel even looks like an aircraft carrier. The Arabs in Palestine were the weaker from the beginning, not able to defend their terretory. The weaker will not get more support they need to dissapear. The ethnic cleansing of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank is the long-term goal of Israel and right now they make great progress. Without being watched by the international press, it would happen much faster.

 

[Jadedmeursault9]

I think the atrocities they've committed have atleast made way for major reform. I mean, as is, the state of Israel can rot.

 

[ren1bas]

I think the atrocities they've committed have atleast made way for major reform. I mean, as is, the state of Israel can rot.

the germans, the russians, the brits, the turks, the americans, the chinese, the japanese, the belgians and many more have committed much worse atrocities on a much bigger scale yet i wouldnt say they dont deserve to exist

 

[Dejected 55]

the germans, the russians, the brits, the turks, the americans, the chinese, the japanese, the belgians and many more have committed much worse atrocities on a much bigger scale yet i wouldnt say they dont deserve to exist

For what it's worth... After WWII, Germany was essentially not allowed to exist as a unified nation for decades. It was divided in two, and occupied by the US and Soviet Union for most of that time.

I don't know if that was the right answer... just noting that is an example of not being allowed to exist for a long time.

 

[Pessimist]

As an Israeli leftist, I also disagree with the global left/far-left that says Israel needs to be completely annihilated. But the current Israeli regime doesn't have a "right to exist" imo.

 

[physic1st]

I do not think that whatever is going on in Gaza is an excuse to abolish the State of Israel. Abolishing Israel would result in IMMENSE human suffering.

Would you mind elaborating on how it would result in,"immense", human suffering? Respectfully, I do not see a correlation.

Netanyahu, is firm on the belief that Israel has the right to attack Palestine, yet Palestine does not have the right to attack them.
Netanyahu is firm on the belief that Israel has the right to possess nuclear weapons, yet Iran does not.
Netanyahu believes that attacking Palestine and Palestinian hospitals is an act of, (and I quote), "self defence". However if Palestine were to attack Israel, it would be, (and I quote), "terrorism".

The state of Israel shouldn't be abolished, it's governor should be stepped down.

I am not pro Israel nor pro Palestine, I am pro peace. Do you see how terrorism, double standards and the attack on civillian life is an issue for our planet and its people?

 

[Dejected 55]

Historically, the definition of "terrorism" is usually made by whomever wins the battle. During the Revolutionary war, the soon-to-be-Americans used terroristic tactics against the British soldiers. US history does not tend to frame it that way because we see ourselves as the good guys since we won that war. You can bet, though, if the British had prevailed there would be stories about the terrorism by the Americans.

In Viet-Nam... we (the US) considered what they were doing there to be terrorist activities against our invading troops. Arguably we did not "win" the war in Viet-Nam, but we didn't lose either... we just at some point gave up deciding it wasn't worth it... and since we are the world power we are, we get to write about how the Viet-Nam people used terrorism in their own country to fight against us "unfairly."

Mind you, I'm not defending attacks by Hamas and other organizations that use terrorism to further their position or cause... I'm just saying when Israel goes way overboard in a response they get to declare it not terrorism because they are winning. The larger force, the winning force, rarely gets accused of terrorism. German was tried for war crimes after LOSING WWII... the winners don't get trials for war crimes.

 

[Winterreise]

Ask them

 

[ren1bas]

Would you mind elaborating on how it would result in,"immense", human suffering? Respectfully, I do not see a correlation.

Netanyahu, is firm on the belief that Israel has the right to attack Palestine, yet Palestine does not have the right to attack them.
Netanyahu is firm on the belief that Israel has the right to possess nuclear weapons, yet Iran does not.
Netanyahu believes that attacking Palestine and Palestinian hospitals is an act of, (and I quote), "self defence". However if Palestine were to attack Israel, it would be, (and I quote), "terrorism".

The state of Israel shouldn't be abolished, it's governor should be stepped down.

I am not pro Israel nor pro Palestine, I am pro peace. Do you see how terrorism, double standards and the attack on civillian life is an issue for our planet and its people?

Because abolishing Israel in the favour of Palestine would lead to an inevitable genocide. Regardless of what you think about palestinians and the cause of it all, you have to admit that, as of today, they are an enraged, starved and largely uneducated population. And as seen by various historical examples, that leads to mass murder (More-so if the population considers the conquered people to be colonizers).

I think that Netanyahu believes that both countries can't attack eachother, unless it's self defense. Which is the case here (October 7th), which is further reinforced by the fact that Israel did not attack the Palestinian Authoirity in the West Bank (which would make sense if Israel wanted to attack Palestine for irredentist purposes)

Israel is 22 072 km sqr large, Iran is 1.648mil km sqr large, and as such has a way smaller population density. A single Israeli nuclear strike would probably paralyze Iran for a few days and that's it (of course human casualities would still be somewhat large, but it's not lethal for Iran's existence). A single Iranian nuclear strike could actually end Israel's existence. You also have to keep in mind that Iran is a member of the nuclear non proliferation treaty, Israel isn't, as such Iran is obligated to not produce nuclear weapons.

I think that I somewhat agree with you, though it is pretty difficult to fight a milita in an extremely dense urban enviroment without sacrificing tens of thousands of soldiers.

Double standards are only a thing if the situations are equal/similar, I do not believe that this is the case here. But yes, ultimately, peace is the thing we should strive for (though it is an utopian ideal).

Historically, the definition of "terrorism" is usually made by whomever wins the battle. During the Revolutionary war, the soon-to-be-Americans used terroristic tactics against the British soldiers. US history does not tend to frame it that way because we see ourselves as the good guys since we won that war. You can bet, though, if the British had prevailed there would be stories about the terrorism by the Americans.

In Viet-Nam... we (the US) considered what they were doing there to be terrorist activities against our invading troops. Arguably we did not "win" the war in Viet-Nam, but we didn't lose either... we just at some point gave up deciding it wasn't worth it... and since we are the world power we are, we get to write about how the Viet-Nam people used terrorism in their own country to fight against us "unfairly."

Mind you, I'm not defending attacks by Hamas and other organizations that use terrorism to further their position or cause... I'm just saying when Israel goes way overboard in a response they get to declare it not terrorism because they are winning. The larger force, the winning force, rarely gets accused of terrorism. German was tried for war crimes after LOSING WWII... the winners don't get trials for war crimes.

Terrorism (at least the definition of terrorism that I believe is correct in the political sense) is an attack on the civilian population with the purpose of instilling fear as well as furthering/popularizing a societal (political, economic, philosophical and etc) agenda. I do not know whether american revolutionaires attacked innocent civilians or not, but even so, it was a time of completely different ethical and moral norms.

Attacks on US soldiers were indeed not terrorism. However, North Vietnamese forces did unarguably commit acts of terrorism against supporters of South Vietnam. Same goes for South Vietnam and the US.

I suppose that certain alleged Israeli actions could be called terrorism, and I hope that ALL war criminals get trialed for their crimes. However, it's not an excuse to dismantle Israel.

As an Israeli leftist, I also disagree with the global left/far-left that says Israel needs to be completely annihilated. But the current Israeli regime doesn't have a "right to exist" imo.

I think that the status-quo of Israel being a jewish state should continue. However, certain policies of Likud do make me agree that Netanyahu must be impeached.

 

[Dejected 55]

When has anyone said anything about dismantling Israel? I think a case can be made that Israel should not have been forced on the middle east in the way that it was... but that ship has sailed.

Anytime anyone gives support for a Palestinian state, there are people who jump up and scream "why do you want to dismantle Israel" as if one excludes the other... but the original plan was to in fact have an Israeli and a Palestinian state.

As for "who started it" and what not... This current situation didn't come from out of thin air that Oct 7th date... if you want to limit to just that date, then sure... Hamas started that, and Israel had a right to defend and retaliate... but then when does that end? Arguably they claim to have killed all the top Hamas leaders, no? So why kill all the other people and threaten to just take over the Gaza strip and kick every non-Israeli out of there? Even using eye-for-an-eye justice response, Israel has gone way over the top in responding to that October 7th attack.

But then it didn't start there... these conflicts build on all that has come before. A history of people who are having trouble getting along... and a lot of powerful nations on both sides choosing to sell weapons and such to each of them to keep the fighting going. IF nobody was selling weapons to Israel or to Hamas (or whatever terrorist flavor of the month that pops up) how long would the sides keep fighting?

If you happen to be born on the "wrong" side of what goes on in the middle east, what chance do you have? A lot of the young in Israel and what's left of Palestine don't want to continue the fighting. But it's big business for governments and terrorist organizations. Honestly, I think if you dismantled the current Israeli regime AND the leadership of various terrorist organizations and let the people come together... I think they would have a much better chance, without other world powers interfering.

But there's too much money to be made... so the war is going to keep being supported.

Remember when the Greeks had this novel idea about instead of wars and killing each other to prove who had the biggest dicks... we instead gather together our finest athletes and compete in sport where we could gain bragging rights and earn respect for each other without all the murder. Wouldn't it be nice if that had actually caught on?

 

[Hvergelmir]

Honestly, I think if you dismantled the current Israeli regime AND the leadership of various terrorist organizations and let the people come together... I think they would have a much better chance, without other world powers interfering.

You're assuming calm, respectful and rational negotiations. This is generally not what happens when a power vacuum is waiting to be filled.

instead of wars and killing each other to prove who had the biggest dicks...

Modern war is not about about dicks...
Sports can build nationalist pride, and identity, while strengthening international relations, but it won't protect you or your interests.

No matter where you stand politically or ideologically, there are forces out there that can't be allowed to proliferate.

 

[ElTopo]

I do not think that whatever is going on in Gaza is an excuse to abolish the State of Israel. Abolishing Israel would result in IMMENSE human suffering.

State are born naturally, the state of Israel was given by ONU to the Jewish people on the on the premise that it was their promised land as told in the Bible, even just that is funny and I am a theist. ONU, which should represent the most civilized and advanced states of the world, a laic organization gave the land based on purely religious reason, Jews had been living in the whole of Europe for most of their recent history, and that land itself was already inhabited by other ethnic groups, that itself is reason enough, but that's not where it ends, just look at the history of Israel from its foundation to now, you will find the most cruel, bloody, outright tyrannical state in the world. Just look at the history of the first intifada, children were throwing rocks at tanks and the Prime Minister literally publicly said to "break their arms so they won't throw them anymore", it's literally sadistic. Even if we make the case that Israel is a legitimate state (it isn't) we can't gloss over all of its incredibly bloody history, and that's without mentioning how they invade other countries' jurisdiction(Mossad has cells everywhere and they are supposed to be our allies, this is the equivalent of CIA in Latin America), how they mess with the politics of other countries, how they aggravate crisis to foment irregular immigration towards the Balkan and Mediterranean routes, the fact that they've literally vetoed against food being a basic human right.

Abolishing the state of Israel would be the first ethically good thing to come out of today's politics.

 

[Dejected 55]

You're assuming calm, respectful and rational negotiations. This is generally not what happens when a power vacuum is waiting to be filled.

Modern war is not about about dicks...
Sports can build nationalist pride, and identity, while strengthening international relations, but it won't protect you or your interests.

No matter where you stand politically or ideologically, there are forces out there that can't be allowed to proliferate.

True... bad power often gets replaced by more bad power... but IF that keeps happening, it seems like that's proof that nobody is good, right? In which case, maybe the heavy backing by the other major world powers ought to dry up and leave them all alone.

How do you define "can't be allowed to proliferate?" I mean, Israeli leadership right now would say that is true about all Palestinians, no? They sure seem to be. This current war has long stopped being about justice for the original terrorist attack n October 7th a couple of years ago. There are genocides going on in other places too, and its often the weakest people being targeted... so not the power-mongering people who seem like the bad guys to me.

And this notion of "we have to eviscerate the enemy" doesn't go well. Alexander the Great seems to have been one of the better historical conquerors in that when he conquered a new land, he invited the people to serve in the government and run their own land still, just now as a part of his empire... in other words, he wasn't looking to eradicate everyone and take all the good stuff... he was looking to build. Mind you, the conqueror part still is a problem, but at least he wasn't out for genocide of all people different than him.

On a smaller scale, sure there are terrorists (typically the leaders and less so the actual bomb-on-vest suicide bombers) and tyrannical leaders and murderers, rapists, etc. that you have to eradicate. I get that. But those are well in the minority... and if you had to have war and that's where you focus and you make it clear to help and let everyone else do their thing... these things wouldn't fester and go over generations.

In the US, we used to make light of the "Hatfields vs and McCoys" as an antiquated thing where two families had been hating and fighting so long neither one knew why they hated each other, just that they were raised to do so... and yet, not even in the USA people are clamoring to be on one side or the other and hope to eradicate "the other" without any defensible real reason they can think of to do so.

 

[ren1bas]

State are born naturally, the state of Israel was given by ONU to the Jewish people on the on the premise that it was their promised land as told in the Bible, even just that is funny and I am a theist. ONU, which should represent the most civilized and advanced states of the world, a laic organization gave the land based on purely religious reason, Jews had been living in the whole of Europe for most of their recent history, and that land itself was already inhabited by other ethnic groups, that itself is reason enough, but that's not where it ends, just look at the history of Israel from its foundation to now, you will find the most cruel, bloody, outright tyrannical state in the world. Just look at the history of the first intifada, children were throwing rocks at tanks and the Prime Minister literally publicly said to "break their arms so they won't throw them anymore", it's literally sadistic. Even if we make the case that Israel is a legitimate state (it isn't) we can't gloss over all of its incredibly bloody history, and that's without mentioning how they invade other countries' jurisdiction(Mossad has cells everywhere and they are supposed to be our allies, this is the equivalent of CIA in Latin America), how they mess with the politics of other countries, how they aggravate crisis to foment irregular immigration towards the Balkan and Mediterranean routes, the fact that they've literally vetoed against food being a basic human right.

Abolishing the state of Israel would be the first ethically good thing to come out of today's politics.

Do you think that jews are only limited to Ashkenazim? There's the Sephardim (spanish jews that were exiled into northern africa), Mizrahim (middle eastern jews), the old yishuv/eretz israel (jews who have remained in israel against all odds). There was an enormous jewish population even before the establishment of Israel. Besides, Israel is the historical homeland of jews even outside of Judaism (It is a historical fact). Israel was chosen for a multitude of reasons: It was the historical homeland of jews, it is a sacred place for jews, it had a very large jewish population and arabs (palestinians do not have a culture that's distinct from other arabs) wouldn't suffer much considering that they had millions of kilometers of land by that point.

"You will find the most cruel, bloody, outright tyrannical state in the world." Is outright a lie. First of all, arabs have started the first intifada. Second of all, they have started the six-day war. Third of all, they have started the Yom Kippur war. Israel was actually the freeest state in the region. It has an actually functional parliament, an actual democratic system. Meanwhile, the countries around Israel are all absolute monarchies or dictatorships or just too dysfunctional to maintain a proper state (e.g. Iraq or Syria). And yes, it is a known fact that intelligence agencies have cells in other countries, thanks. The rest is just blatant lies based on... i don't know, probably the voices in your head? Regarding the food being a human right veto, the "No" vote was done in order to support the US (which is a state Israel relies quite a lot on). It's a purely formal vote and the US is already the largest humanitarian aid exporter, voting yes would put an even bigger burden on the US, while other countries do nothing. Food is not an issue, we have an incredible abundance. The problem is in delivering the food.

 

[WhatCouldHaveBeen32]

Because ironically , like really ironically, Israeli people are brainwashed to the same level as the ones they were oppressed by about 70 years ago. I can't support a nation that brainwashes it's population into being hate filled and warmongering because of religion. Even because of the abuse I suffered, I have no right at anyone's life or anyone's territory just because some voice deep deep down in my head tells me that I should take what I rightfully deserve/ this would be translated to the government brainwashing the israeli people.

Obviously there are LOTS of people who just hate jews just because their ethnicity and have hijacked the movement to hate on jews even more. Anyone who debates that this is what leftists do on a daily basis (it's what right wingers do in reality) is a sham or has hit their head when they were little, one or the other; or maybe a chatgpt bot of some kind.

There are a lot of Israeli people who denounce their citizenship and realise how deep the brainwashing goes, you'd be better off trying to find one of those people to talk to and understand the situation better, I'm not from there, I only know about the corruption since I learned about it when I was like 12-13 and it was reminded to me these last 2 years.

 

[Joarga]

Por que son asesinos genocidas