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Thekla

Thekla

The Lord will take me home.
May 29, 2024
25
Regardless though, if hell does exists and, you can end up there for one misdemeanor or another, one thing seems clear: God doesn't mind it being ambiguous. They are ok with you gambling your chances on condemning your soul to a firey pit forever. Surely, they could make us aware of their presence and, what they truly want- seeing as a race, we're obviously confused! There are estimated to be 10,000 distinct religions worldwide. Some of us are even atheists. But, they're not bothered. They'll even (presumably) let someone be born into very likely believing the 'wrong' religion- if they happen to be born in an area where a 'false' religion holds sway. So- God presumably has favourites and other souls/ people they are willing to very likely sacrifice.

Perhaps it's about challenge though. Does God deliberately test some people more than others? What if they are born and indoctrinated in a 'false' religion to start with? They are then expected to somehow find the 'truth' themselves maybe? Are we tested in other ways. Is illness a test? Is temptation? It's a weird teaching style though- no? A bit like the army maybe- try to break the person.(If that does happen.) How people then see God as loving, I just can't fathom.
I'm not attempting to change anyone's mind about this. But your assumption that some people are born into wrong religions may be misguided, as it's not even guaranteed that someone "born Christian" will stay Christian or even have a genuine relationship with God. The opposite is also assumed. Me personally, I was born into an atheistic family.

But I think God is all loving because He's the only one who doesn't expect anything from me. Which is incredibly liberating. Meaning anything nice he does come with no strings attached, no expectation of anything in return. Most of my suffering comes from other's expectations, and that I cannot meet them. The fact that God doesn't expect anything of me, and his plans do not require my cooperation, and he chooses to love me anyway is probably the only good thing in my life.

Hell (in my view) probably isn't very different from here (The "Material Earth"), and the Divine Comedy was fan-faction after all, so there are no metaphysical (literal) demons to torture you. So, in my view, it would honestly be an upgrade because there's a relief in utter helplessness—on Earth, actions have consequences.
 
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notreallybored

Student
Nov 26, 2024
163
Religion is a coping mechanism for death anxiety or fear of death.
ב''ה,
Judaism doesn't really have a lot of this, except in its ultimate message as includes or generally just is "don't piss off G-d and good things may happen."

There are fairly mainstream trains of thought in it that basically amount to secular 'preventing contagion' arguments, and/or that the observant should forego assistance with ending it 1. just so that is never misused to off someone for the wrong reasons, so to be observant you have to eat what that means for personal bad situations to prevent the other bad things, 2. because the whole point is to keep the tribe(s) in existence i.e. living.

Oddly most church folk lately seem to have forgotten the 'pretending to do ritual cannibalism makes you a Jew'.. falsehood from a Jewish perspective, but since it's currently Passover the divine comedy the church came up with is that leavened bread does that, that is, anyone doing that is a sinner if Jewish (church services generally being held through Passover week) and 'the same as the notional dead meshuggah Jewish hippie guy,' so surviving that in that tautology club is proof G-d forgives you enough not to strike you down immediately, but you might still get a yeast infection.

So without doxxing myself too much, Judaism sort of has the attitude that grinding onwards in life is service to G-d (and the nation Israel since G-d really wants Israel to exist for G-d's reasons), and "church stuff" and everything after kind of use that aspect of Judaism for the 'can't leave life we'd lose a serf' approach.

It's just a wilder game of telephone in the religions that forgive constant rewriting of their foundational texts. In Judaism with enough squinting you can at least get to 'oh, right, because G-d's goal of giving us a nation doesn't work if everyone is dead,' but not everyone is versed in Judaism enough to understand Rome's twists on it to claim something similar and similar divine providence for Europe.
 
davidtorez

davidtorez

Wizard
Mar 8, 2024
649
Christianity only started to condemn suicide in about the 4th century. Before that christianity had the same attitude as the rest of the Ancient World: in some circumstances suicide is acceptable; in some circumstances it may even be the right thing to do.
Remember that religions change their attitudes on anything, depending on attitudes in the surrounding culture and on the need to keep money flowing into the collection plate. They pretend that their moral views are absolute and unchanging, but that's a lie, and anyone who has studied some history knows that it's a lie.
Exactly right! Just look at the stance on slavery in the bible and how we see slavery now!
 
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notreallybored

Student
Nov 26, 2024
163
ב''ה,
If this gets munged to my last reply I'll toss a paragraph break in to be readable, but as a separate thought generally for edification of this whole thread, Judaism doesn't have Hell (rather G-d will just make your life shitty in life, generally) but it has Sheol.

To plagiarize encyclopedia.com as hopefully doesn't dox me,

SHEOL

A Hebrew word (š e'ôl ) that occurs more than 60 times in the Old Testament to signify the nether world. Its etymology is very uncertain, being variously derived from šā'al, "ask, inquire," [thus, a place that keeps asking for more (Prv 27.20; 30.15–16) or a place of interrogation of the dead], from šā'âl, "be hollow, deep," from šwl, "be low," from šā'â, "be desolate," plus an archaic suffix l, or from various Akkadian roots.


^
I had more on the exact etymology, but this is vaguely like how "grave" "grievance" and "grief" could be mistaken for the same word in English. However it is also that, all that's known about non-existence until any ultimate resurrection is that it involves the grave (burial, literally being below the earth) and G-d occasionally lets people ask of it (as much as the notion of burial seems to ask or beg for lives, mortality rarely if ever being avoided), though that's making the point that it's a puppet show and you can't tell the difference because G-d controls everything anyway. Also doing that generally only delivers bad news, particularly to Jews, as G-d asks us not to bother or try to.

So, in sensibility it's mostly just a word for "the grave," non-existence, though people being people and Jewish law being Jewish law, the Rabbinical and folk traditions are to pray G-d remembers the deads' deeds in life favorably. For Judaism proper it's that this is an important part of how everything functions, as G-d can punish the living for the past 4 generations' iniquities as maybe was supposed to discourage them (complicated way of saying don't fuck up your kids and don't fuck up the world for them, if you care, in most direct causal form), while in folk tradition since we're still prone to regular human stuff there is that element of 'may this improve their souls' lot whatever the fuck being in The Grave actually is.'

So Rome did flip this around, probably via Zoroastrianism rather than Judaism, plus existing Roman thought and Greek influence, as in those traditions it's possible for a soul to suffer in an active afterlife more than just not getting to walk the Earth anymore until the resurrection. So instead of the living being punished by and for the misdeeds of their ancestors (pour leaded gas on the planet the next generation deals with lead) as is how things 'naturally' work, it's put that you can do whatever you want in life but may face an active eternity of suffering after life for it. The popularity of this does suggest a certain narcissism exists more commonly than the Jewish heartstrings G-d was trying to tug as far as, your ancestors wanted and got their seed multiplied and their lines to go on all this time, so you'd really be fucking up all that from the get go to future generations if ruining life for your kids (wherein eating raised bread on Passover, or actively poisoning or beating your children might both equally do that, but that's its own can of worms).
 
O

oneeyed

Arcanist
Oct 11, 2022
402
Can we rely trust any current scripture? They have been written, re written, translated, edited, entire sections cut out or add in.
 
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aiyuxhan

aiyuxhan

Experienced
Mar 28, 2025
231
ב''ה,
Judaism doesn't really have a lot of this, except in its ultimate message as includes or generally just is "don't piss off G-d and good things may happen."

There are fairly mainstream trains of thought in it that basically amount to secular 'preventing contagion' arguments, and/or that the observant should forego assistance with ending it 1. just so that is never misused to off someone for the wrong reasons, so to be observant you have to eat what that means for personal bad situations to prevent the other bad things, 2. because the whole point is to keep the tribe(s) in existence i.e. living.

Oddly most church folk lately seem to have forgotten the 'pretending to do ritual cannibalism makes you a Jew'.. falsehood from a Jewish perspective, but since it's currently Passover the divine comedy the church came up with is that leavened bread does that, that is, anyone doing that is a sinner if Jewish (church services generally being held through Passover week) and 'the same as the notional dead meshuggah Jewish hippie guy,' so surviving that in that tautology club is proof G-d forgives you enough not to strike you down immediately, but you might still get a yeast infection.

So without doxxing myself too much, Judaism sort of has the attitude that grinding onwards in life is service to G-d (and the nation Israel since G-d really wants Israel to exist for G-d's reasons), and "church stuff" and everything after kind of use that aspect of Judaism for the 'can't leave life we'd lose a serf' approach.

It's just a wilder game of telephone in the religions that forgive constant rewriting of their foundational texts. In Judaism with enough squinting you can at least get to 'oh, right, because G-d's goal of giving us a nation doesn't work if everyone is dead,' but not everyone is versed in Judaism enough to understand Rome's twists on it to claim something similar and similar divine providence for Europe.
Thanks for the explanation!

With the amount of stuff I have been through and with chronic pain and chronic illnesses, I guess I pissed off God a lot 😅😅
 
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northevelyn

northevelyn

Little Void
Mar 26, 2025
41
I'm not religious and don't believe in an afterlife, but I imagine the intention was to try to dissuade suicide. If followers are less likely to die, then they can continue worshipping and working and spreading the religion.
 
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LastNite

LastNite

Bad Decisions -The Strokes
Mar 31, 2025
31
The answer is quite obvious. The more slaves you lose the less you earn off of them. I don't mean to offend anyone but I believe religion is just there to control people not benefit them. Pedophilia is quite common among these religions including violence. Think again when someone tells you they care about you or when your government tells you that you matter. In the end you're nothing but a number to them. Lose that number and they lose money and power.

Take Islam for example. A guy blasts his brains because he's living a harsh and unfair life, guess what that Islamic God does? fuck that dude with even more suffering because he couldn't take it while that God if he even exists lets multi billionaires rape, destroy, and steal without any consequences.
 
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F

Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
11,253
But I think God is all loving because He's the only one who doesn't expect anything from me.

I'm pleased for you that you do feel this 'relationship' with God and, this love. I find this statement a little odd though. I get the impression God expects a lot from us. There are surely so many religious laws to live by- the commandments. So many temptations- deadly sins we're told to resist... or else.

I'm not attempting to change anyone's mind about this. But your assumption that some people are born into wrong religions may be misguided, as it's not even guaranteed that someone "born Christian" will stay Christian or even have a genuine relationship with God. The opposite is also assumed. Me personally, I was born into an atheistic family.

True but, it's surely more likely someone born in a culture and time period will follow the religion most predominant in that location and period. Most religions/ Gods seem very intolerant of other Gods and people worshipping those 'false' Gods. Isn't it even stated in the bible:

"You shall not bow down to them or worship them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God".

Also seems amusing to me- seeing as envy is classed as a sin that we are commanded not to commit. Personally, I love leaders who lead by example. As a God, I would hope they would be free of all sin.

Are you even certain you picked the right God? What do you suppose will happen to the devout and good people of other religions? What will happen to the very kind atheists? Will they get punished because they ended up worshipping the 'wrong' one or, no one? Or, is your version of God more forgiving?

I think that's the main issue I have really. In order to love God, I think we tend to create a different version of them. Different to the religious texts we have and different to the simple reasoning of how many of the ways this world were created.

I have to apologise here. I suppose I'm angry with God- if there is one. My anger isn't directed at devout people though so, I hope you don't take offense.

Perhaps our suffering is mainly due to other people but, who created those other people? Who gave people the potential to act that way? Wouldn't a God be able to avoid something like paedophillic attraction from the very start? What 'good' does that do anyone? Ok- it's a temptation God can use to test people. What if they're not strong enough to resist though? A child gets hurt! So- God is willing to take that gamble. What kind of God does that?

The alternative is that it's nothing to do with God. It materialised on its own or, because Adam and Eve ate an apple (created by God.) People tend to either blame that or the devil for all the bad stuff. Still- is God now powerless to stop it or, do they not want to? It can only really be one or the other. Either they don't have the power to stop all forms of suffering or, they don't want to. Maybe they value choice. Great- pro-choice. It's obvious they don't though. They don't want us choosing to worship something else, they've given us a whole bunch of rules to follow. I just find it too extreme. That they supposedly value our free will so highly that they will allow adults to choose to rape children. They enable that. Why?
 
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Thekla

Thekla

The Lord will take me home.
May 29, 2024
25
"You shall not bow down to them or worship them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God".

Also seems amusing to me- seeing as envy is classed as a sin that we are commanded not to commit. Personally, I love leaders who lead by example. As a God, I would hope they would be free of all sin.
Envy and jealousy aren't the same thing. They're similar, but not interchangeable. God has no reason to feel envy. In a way, it's like a husband who truly loves his wife is bound to be jealous of other people trying to fuck his wife. Not all jealousy is inherently negative.

Are you even certain you picked the right God? What do you suppose will happen to the devout and good people of other religions? What will happen to the very kind atheists? Will they get punished because they ended up worshipping the 'wrong' one or, no one? Or, is your version of God more forgiving?
Yeah... I'm very certain of my decision, I wouldn't do what I do if I wasn't.

As for your second point, those people end up in Hell. It's sad, but that's just what happens. I don't really know what Hell fully means or involves, but that's where they go. The Bible describes it as "eternal separation from God", which honestly to me, sounds awful. Still, who knows what that really looks like, maybe it's not as bad as it sounds.

To me, Hell doesn't feel like a punishment in the traditional sense. It's more like a natural consequence. Like touching a hot stove: your hand burns, not because the stove is angry at you, but because that's just what heat does — it burns.

I have to apologise here. I suppose I'm angry with God- if there is one. My anger isn't directed at devout people though so, I hope you don't take offense.
It's fine. Once again, I'm not attempting to change your mind, that's not my job. God doesn't need my defending; I'm just a lone human girl. So you don't have to take anything I'm saying here seriously.
 
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Linda

Linda

Member
Jul 30, 2020
1,799
Science can slide into dogma when it fiercely guards entrenched theories or dismisses unconventional ideas without fair examination. It's not just religion that gets preachy—science can turn rigid, ignoring evidence like the universe's finely tuned constants or quantum mechanics' observer effect when they challenge materialist assumptions. When scientists scoff at anything suggesting consciousness plays a role in reality, they're not following data; they're defending a worldview. Dogma creeps in when egos, funding, or groupthink trump open inquiry, blinding science to the universe's weirder possibilities. The odds of getting all the right conditions for a life permitting universe by chance is .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%. Or 1 in 10^123. Yea I can't see how everything was made by chance.
Your statement about "the odds" is nonsense. I have explained why it is nonsense so many times to religious people that I have run out of patience and am not going to explain it all again. Do some critical thinking. (First, do the necessary reading so that you understand the topic adequately, so that you can apply critical thinking.)
 
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Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
11,253
Envy and jealousy aren't the same thing. They're similar, but not interchangeable. God has no reason to feel envy. In a way, it's like a husband who truly loves his wife is bound to be jealous of other people trying to fuck his wife. Not all jealousy is inherently negative.


Yeah... I'm very certain of my decision, I wouldn't do what I do if I wasn't.

As for your second point, those people end up in Hell. It's sad, but that's just what happens. I don't really know what Hell fully means or involves, but that's where they go. The Bible describes it as "eternal separation from God", which honestly to me, sounds awful. Still, who knows what that really looks like, maybe it's not as bad as it sounds.

To me, Hell doesn't feel like a punishment in the traditional sense. It's more like a natural consequence. Like touching a hot stove: your hand burns, not because the stove is angry at you, but because that's just what heat does — it burns.


It's fine. Once again, I'm not attempting to change your mind, that's not my job. God doesn't need my defending; I'm just a lone human girl. So you don't have to take anything I'm saying here seriously.

I respect people for their choices and, standing by them. I also feel happy for people who find comfort in their faith. I think faith can be a force for good.

I suppose I also think it would now be a lie for me to pretend to love a God. I feel like it's more honest for me to express how I feel. Even to God themself- if they truly exist and we meet them one day. I hope I have that courage. I hope I can be true to myself and, accept suffering their consequences.

I've heard that also- that hell is simply a separation from God. Even a state of non existence. I find that amusing I suppose because, that's what some atheists long for- nothingness after life. It would be appropriate really if we get rewarded for our non faith that way. I hope for nothingness.
The odds of getting all the right conditions for a life permitting universe by chance is .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%. Or 1 in 10^123. Yea I can't see how everything was made by chance.

What if time goes back infinitely though? In that case- if this space had an infinite amount of time, wouldn't it be more likely those odds would come around at some point? It would be like playing the lottery with billions and billions of tickets. One of them would be the winning one.

Obviously, I'm making the assumption there that time is infinite. I have no proof anymore than anyone else seems to. As a hypothesis though- wouldn't it be possible with infinite time for life to happen by chance?

But, let's say you're right. All of this had intention behind it. Why is that comforting to people?!! This world was created with so much suffering written in to the blue print. I suppose I can understand accepting it. Good idea really. A God that sadistic? Probably smart to keep on their good side! I don't get why people are happy about it though.
 
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Forveleth

I knew I forgot to do something when I was 15...
Mar 26, 2024
1,727
Because dead peasants can not pay money to the church or squeeze out babies to pay more money.
 
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notreallybored

Student
Nov 26, 2024
163
Thanks for the explanation!

With the amount of stuff I have been through and with chronic pain and chronic illnesses, I guess I pissed off God a lot 😅😅
ב''ה,
For what it's worth this is where it gets wacky because might not have been you, past four generations, and if your ancestors, for example, wore perfume on Shabbos so they didn't notice biological incompatibility, that's one of those things in the world. Of course I've known even Jewish people who resorted to IVF and such. I shouldn't even exist myself for related reasons, not that but wouldn't have been viable anyway without Planned Parenthood and all sorts of modern medical intervention that among other things guaranteed me a mother who found the whole experience very unpleasant and lost her mind for it. But just had to to secure herself a Jew and maybe get that Jew money Italy was always drooling at, not that there was any compared to what's locked in the Vatican.

Anyway, there is also a prayer in Judaism I question about being 'the most injured people,' at least derived from being the 'lowliest of nations' somewhere in Torah (G-d creating my inbred desert hill people to show that it had to be G-d helping us is a thing), and I do question the phrasing of that one and if there's a way to put it less injuriously, even if it may have pushed modern medicine along back when that was ever an honest field of work if it ever was.

So, not saying it's not an original tautology club but G-d's original cleverness at least is, see, it might not even have been *you* pissing Him off if you go down this belief, it's just that either not having studied the rules or not giving a fuck screws the future generations.

One of the things about the actual world being so mixed and muddled after thousands of years, including my own immediate family by their choice, is: who exactly does or doesn't have some lineage as far as G-d's judgments, despite actual tribal membership in modern times needing fairly strict 'was your mother or not?' proof, though there's some less recognized and possibly confused patrilineal sects and a lot of products of The Jazz Singer like myself.
 
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Apathy79

Apathy79

Mage
Oct 13, 2019
565
I don't think there's much scripture condemning it. Maybe some modern leaders? Not sure.

In general the idea is that killing people is bad, so theoretically killing yourself is no exception. My guess is it's much lower on the list of concerns than things you did during life as far as negative karma goes (or whatever the Christian equivalent is that determines prospects for Heaven/Hell, which just sounds like karma to me).
 
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JayJay

JayJay

Student
Jun 17, 2022
136
Your statement about "the odds" is nonsense. I have explained why it is nonsense so many times to religious people that I have run out of patience and am not going to explain it all again. Do some critical thinking. (First, do the necessary reading so that you understand the topic adequately, so that you can apply critical thinking.)
Yo, lady, your response is a steaming pile of condescending bullshit. You claim my stats on the universe's fine-tuning are "nonsense" but can't be bothered to explain why? That's not science; that's just you jerking off your ego. The 1 in 10^123 odds come from legit calculations on cosmological constants—like the gravitational constant or the cosmological constant—being so precisely tuned that even a hair's deviation would fuck up the possibility of life. Look up Roger Penrose's work on entropy or the fine-structure constant if you want to talk shit with some actual data.


You're dodging the point like a coward, waving your hand with this "I've explained it before" crap. If you're so enlightened, spit out a real counterargument instead of whining about "religious people" and telling me to "do some reading." I've done plenty, and the observer effect in quantum mechanics—where consciousness might influence outcomes—shits all over your smug materialist dogma. Science isn't your personal fan club; it's about grappling with weird-ass possibilities, not dismissing them because they don't your vibe.
 
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Linda

Linda

Member
Jul 30, 2020
1,799
Yo, lady, your response is a steaming pile of condescending bullshit. You claim my stats on the universe's fine-tuning are "nonsense" but can't be bothered to explain why? That's not science; that's just you jerking off your ego. The 1 in 10^123 odds come from legit calculations on cosmological constants—like the gravitational constant or the cosmological constant—being so precisely tuned that even a hair's deviation would fuck up the possibility of life. Look up Roger Penrose's work on entropy or the fine-structure constant if you want to talk shit with some actual data.


You're dodging the point like a coward, waving your hand with this "I've explained it before" crap. If you're so enlightened, spit out a real counterargument instead of whining about "religious people" and telling me to "do some reading." I've done plenty, and the observer effect in quantum mechanics—where consciousness might influence outcomes—shits all over your smug materialist dogma. Science isn't your personal fan club; it's about grappling with weird-ass possibilities, not dismissing them because they don't fit your vibe.


Step up or shut the fuck up
You raised the 10^123 number. You prove it. It's not my job to disprove every idiotic claim on the internet.
 
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JayJay

JayJay

Student
Jun 17, 2022
136
You raised the 10^123 number. You prove it. It's not my job to disprove every idiotic claim on the internet.
I told you to look up Roger Penrose's work on entropy. I'm done with you. "Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." — Mark Twain. Im done with you hag.
 
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Linda

Linda

Member
Jul 30, 2020
1,799
I told you to look up Roger Penrose's work on entropy. I'm done with you. "Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." — Mark Twain. Im done with you hag.
I read Penrose's thoughts on that when his book was first published, decades ago. (The really interesting point he makes is that entropy is intimately related to gravity. That hadn't occurred to me before I read his book - though it is obvious when you think about it.) Nothing that he says implies anything about the probability of the universe being the way it is.
Before we even get to the science, however, there is the more fundamental point that it is meaningless to talk about the probability of the universe being the way it is. There is only one universe (so far as we know), and it is the way it is. That being the case, if you are determined to assign a probability to it being the way it is, that probability can only be 1.

I told you to look up Roger Penrose's work on entropy.
Believe it or not, I don't take orders from you. And that would be the case even if I hadn't long ago read what Penrose has to say.
 
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ham and potatoes

ham and potatoes

Just some hillbilly
Mar 27, 2024
457
If your a kind or ruler, can't have all your peasants killing themselves.... So you add it to the religious text
 
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rashedul

rashedul

antinatalist ex-muslim agnostic atheist
May 8, 2023
6
the point is, if there is a God and he chooses to punish someone for suicide, then that God isn't a good God. because no one deserves punishment for this.
 
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davidtorez

davidtorez

Wizard
Mar 8, 2024
649
Yo, lady, your response is a steaming pile of condescending bullshit. You claim my stats on the universe's fine-tuning are "nonsense" but can't be bothered to explain why? That's not science; that's just you jerking off your ego. The 1 in 10^123 odds come from legit calculations on cosmological constants—like the gravitational constant or the cosmological constant—being so precisely tuned that even a hair's deviation would fuck up the possibility of life. Look up Roger Penrose's work on entropy or the fine-structure constant if you want to talk shit with some actual data.


You're dodging the point like a coward, waving your hand with this "I've explained it before" crap. If you're so enlightened, spit out a real counterargument instead of whining about "religious people" and telling me to "do some reading." I've done plenty, and the observer effect in quantum mechanics—where consciousness might influence outcomes—shits all over your smug materialist dogma. Science isn't your personal fan club; it's about grappling with weird-ass possibilities, not dismissing them because they don't your vibe.
Numbers like 1 in 10^123 are based on real physics, reflecting how sensitive life-permitting conditions are to certain constants, this is true however, treating those as literal probabilities over all possible universes involves controversial assumptions and is not rigorous without a theory of how constants are selected.

So, it's not untrue, but it can be misleading if taken as a straightforward probability claim without qualification.
Other arguments I've seen for fine tuning commit the fallacy of affirming the consequent , and we also need to be clear on what we mean by "life" in the context of this argument. If you haven't done so, maybe you can look into the puddle analogy to show why the fine tuning for life isn't the best argument to use
 
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Linda

Linda

Member
Jul 30, 2020
1,799
Numbers like 1 in 10^123 are based on real physics, reflecting how sensitive life-permitting conditions are to certain constants, this is true however, treating those as literal probabilities over all possible universes involves controversial assumptions and is not rigorous without a theory of how constants are selected.

So, it's not untrue, but it can be misleading if taken as a straightforward probability claim without qualification.
Other arguments I've seen for fine tuning commit the fallacy of affirming the consequent , and we also need to be clear on what we mean by "life" in the context of this argument. If you haven't done so, maybe you can look into the puddle analogy to show why the fine tuning for life isn't the best argument to use
There is the further point that if the fundamental constants were different than they are, we would not be able to work out in any detail what kind of universe would result. Even in our own universe, starting from fundamentals it would be very challenging to demonstrate even that protons must exist. The math is too difficult. If we can't do that, we have no chance at all when it comes to predicting whether life would be possible in some universe with different values of the fundamental constants - or even totally different laws of physics. So claims that life would not be possible in such universes are just a load of hot air.
 
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