Chinaski
Arthur Scargill appreciator
- Sep 1, 2018
- 3,254
Mate, you are aware that other people can read this thread, right?
Mate, you are aware that other people can read this thread, right?
TAW122
Emissary of the right to die.
- Aug 30, 2018
- 6,849
@Chinaski
I'm sorry to say this, but I'm afraid I stand by what many others have said here. It isn't a matter of whether or not we have capacity and capability to ctb. It is a matter of whether or not we are freely and able to do so without persecution (locked up against one's will, forced treatment against our will, and then billed for the treatment that we never consented to in the first place), able to do so without having to resort to desperate (and sometimes, violent methods), and not being handed extrajudicial punishment (violation of civil rights, losing certain rights, and other negative consequences) from exercising a free will that the vast majority of society objects to. Until the day comes where individuals who do not wish to live anymore are able to die peacefully, able to make this choice without legal/social/extrajudicial punishment, then this attitude and sentiment of resentment against pro-lifers and others who try to prevent suicide (passively or actively) will remain.
I'm sorry to say this, but I'm afraid I stand by what many others have said here. It isn't a matter of whether or not we have capacity and capability to ctb. It is a matter of whether or not we are freely and able to do so without persecution (locked up against one's will, forced treatment against our will, and then billed for the treatment that we never consented to in the first place), able to do so without having to resort to desperate (and sometimes, violent methods), and not being handed extrajudicial punishment (violation of civil rights, losing certain rights, and other negative consequences) from exercising a free will that the vast majority of society objects to. Until the day comes where individuals who do not wish to live anymore are able to die peacefully, able to make this choice without legal/social/extrajudicial punishment, then this attitude and sentiment of resentment against pro-lifers and others who try to prevent suicide (passively or actively) will remain.
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Smilla
Visionary
- Apr 30, 2018
- 2,549
I've lost the plot here.
waived
I am a sunrise
- Jan 5, 2019
- 974
That is a poorly executed attempt to have me second guessing my position, or maybe you are talking to a perceived audience of followers who you are trying to convince. It makes no matter. I have read your posts here and I know you have read my delightfully articulated replies to them because of a shocking silence. Isn't it amazing that a socio-psychological phenomenon of public shaming or having others holding a dominant belief of what is a correct line of argument or post, should sway my activity to be other. I'll consider it a soft example of what was discussed above, and thank you.
Chinaski
Arthur Scargill appreciator
- Sep 1, 2018
- 3,254
I'm going to repost this, here, except l won't embolden it for you because I'm not a tediously condescending prick:
Tl;dr, it's fine to be scared, no need to write a bullshit essay about how it's everybody else's fault you haven't ctb.
Chinaski
Arthur Scargill appreciator
- Sep 1, 2018
- 3,254
Mate, I'm not replying to your pretentious and phoney crap for the same reason l don't reply to a chicken when it clucks, jfc.
waived
I am a sunrise
- Jan 5, 2019
- 974
Because the chicken has you stumped?
Zzzzz
Nothing compares to the bliss of death.
- Aug 8, 2018
- 879
What you seem to be suggesting is to call people out on their hypocrisy. This is entirely appropriate and you have every right to do it, if you want .
Zzzzz
Nothing compares to the bliss of death.
- Aug 8, 2018
- 879
Exactly. An inhumane society is one that would rather see a person hang then inject themself with N.
TAW122
Emissary of the right to die.
- Aug 30, 2018
- 6,849
Just as a bump and reminder. I've originally posted this topic to lament at the fact that pro-lifers oftenly have many tools and tactics at their disposal at which to persecute and oppress people like us who just want out of this meaningless, harsh existence called life. By oppression and persecution, I am referring to extrajudicial punishment, such as the government and healthcare professionals being granted the authority to overstep one's civil rights, take away (temporarily) one's freedom without due process or evidence of wrongdoing. Hell, even suspected criminals have rights up until they are convicted (could even sue for wrongful conviction - rare but possible, yet patients violated and wronged have less recourse against the system.). I know that the universe is not fair so I don't expect any fairness on either side. However, given the way we are treated we should at least stand up for ourselves and stand our ground so that way we don't just become a total pushover. Part of my motivation comes from this post on reddit years ago.
The OP in that post mentioned that the reason suicidal people get treated poorly and are fucked in many ways is because we don't fight back (most of the time).
The OP in that post mentioned that the reason suicidal people get treated poorly and are fucked in many ways is because we don't fight back (most of the time).
Agreed and also I like that you posted exactly on 4:20 pm (coincidence :P).
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WayOut
Experienced
- Oct 26, 2018
- 281
waived
I am a sunrise
- Jan 5, 2019
- 974
It's only a week old and I'm glad there is renewed interest in the topic. Although at some point it has to move past a superficial understanding (bullies and mean people) and into a more thorough analysis of what's occurring, otherwise it's just an echo chamber.
Chinaski
Arthur Scargill appreciator
- Sep 1, 2018
- 3,254
The OP bumping his own thread is not "renewed interest".
Smilla
Visionary
- Apr 30, 2018
- 2,549
Unfortunately there isn't renewed interest in the topic; the OP "bumped" his own thread.
Sadly I have neither the energy left or the wherewithal to contribute intelligently to this discussion, and frankly I think we have beaten it to death.
The truth is there is no higher governmental/ideological power structure stopping us from CTB; we can flail around all we want crying about the unfairness of our manner of deaths, our isolation, and the total hypocrisy of society or we can get on with the business of living or of dying. I'm choosing dying.
Smilla
Visionary
- Apr 30, 2018
- 2,549
I just said that.
waived
I am a sunrise
- Jan 5, 2019
- 974
The op bumped their thread renewing their interest in replies to it. I am showing renewed interest in the topic. The number of people who post on this forum stating that they are afraid to ctb because of an afterlife shows that there is a dominant logic preventing them. The number of people who post on this forum citing reasons that they are down with those reasons being things that are not their fault (class position to name one) is an indication that people are searching for clarity that can help them make a decision.
waived
I am a sunrise
- Jan 5, 2019
- 974
Along with the reddit quote you provided, how would you develop this in a more constructive direction beyond a continuous calling out of culprits? In your words what is at the root of mean doctors and coworkers etc.. is it just that they're 'bullies'? What is meant by 'fight back'? What prevents it and what prevents ctb, is it cowardice and do you think cowardice can exist because of a lack of exposure to an 'outside'?
TAW122
Emissary of the right to die.
- Aug 30, 2018
- 6,849
A more constructive direction would be to expose the evils that the system does to people so that they know, then to encourage people to fight back and resist against said system (by knowing their rights, standing up for themselves, avoid being tricked or duped into believing they have a choice, when in fact they don't). I guess a lot of people on here already know about the evils of the mental health system and society, but at least for the people who don't know, I would do them a favor by bringing to light the horrors of the mental health system and treatment of patients in said system (who have committed no crimes, or did anything wrong other than being suicidal).
As far as mental health professionals, coworkers, law enforcement, and the system itself, well I suppose a good deal of them are doing their job but it is also unhelpful that the general attitude of them is that suicidal people are mentally ill, irrational, and we must save them from themselves (and then make them miss work, saddle them with massive medical bills that will financially cripple them, and of course a mark on their record which will affect their career, their social life, and certain civil rights, etc.). Therefore, those people aren't necessarily looking out for our best interests, but mainly just looking for their own, and it's (almost) never about the suicidal's interest, it's about them and will always be about them. By fighting back (not necessarily doing something illegal or violent), I mean resisting them, arming oneself with the knowledge of their tactics and ways to prevent onself from being ensnared into a financial and civilly punitive trap, and also making their lives a bit harder if one was going down.
I guess you could say I was never the type to just turn the other cheek and go down without resistance (but that's another topic altogether heh). I mean, I don't see us "stooping down" to their level or being as bad as them for simply defending our rights and our autonomy. If they are selfish enough to impose life without letting us the freedom or right to end our own lives, then it is only right for us to take from them for imposing a hellish existence that we never agreed to and punishing us for simply wanting to quit or leave. Yes, I know that people can still choose to kill themselves, but that's not the point. The point is that if one fails the attempt, is caught planning, and/or has ideation or means of carrying out suicide, then one would be locked up against one's will (without due process and without having committed any crimes or done anything wrong per se).
For the last question, I'm not sure what you mean by 'outside', so I'm not sure how I'd answer that one.
As far as mental health professionals, coworkers, law enforcement, and the system itself, well I suppose a good deal of them are doing their job but it is also unhelpful that the general attitude of them is that suicidal people are mentally ill, irrational, and we must save them from themselves (and then make them miss work, saddle them with massive medical bills that will financially cripple them, and of course a mark on their record which will affect their career, their social life, and certain civil rights, etc.). Therefore, those people aren't necessarily looking out for our best interests, but mainly just looking for their own, and it's (almost) never about the suicidal's interest, it's about them and will always be about them. By fighting back (not necessarily doing something illegal or violent), I mean resisting them, arming oneself with the knowledge of their tactics and ways to prevent onself from being ensnared into a financial and civilly punitive trap, and also making their lives a bit harder if one was going down.
I guess you could say I was never the type to just turn the other cheek and go down without resistance (but that's another topic altogether heh). I mean, I don't see us "stooping down" to their level or being as bad as them for simply defending our rights and our autonomy. If they are selfish enough to impose life without letting us the freedom or right to end our own lives, then it is only right for us to take from them for imposing a hellish existence that we never agreed to and punishing us for simply wanting to quit or leave. Yes, I know that people can still choose to kill themselves, but that's not the point. The point is that if one fails the attempt, is caught planning, and/or has ideation or means of carrying out suicide, then one would be locked up against one's will (without due process and without having committed any crimes or done anything wrong per se).
For the last question, I'm not sure what you mean by 'outside', so I'm not sure how I'd answer that one.
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Being pro choice is like being an atheist a few hundred years ago when everyone else was religious. There views are based on magic, and are laughable. They have their views due to a poor understanding of the complex rules laws and information about life/suicide. Their are much more effective ways to bring about change. Humans are tribal animals not magic. You could try to copy what has worked in the past. Unfortunately when you graph the data, it's clear real change is brought about by improvements in technology rather than social movements etc.
waived
I am a sunrise
- Jan 5, 2019
- 974
I wouldn't use the word evil but I think in order to expose what a system is doing and consciously interact with it you have to explore how it works and what its origins are- that is, to move past identifying that it exists and to know it in the same way that its creators had an intimate knowledge of you, or whatever demographic for whatever system at whatever time. I am down to explore this at depth and think the forum could benefit from discussion like it.
Experiencing doesn't equate to knowing about. It can be terrifying experiencing various systems because you don't know what is happening and why. Knowing doesn't guarantee an outcome of the experience but if you're talking about intelligible resistance to such things then you are talking about a certain degree of arming via knowledge.
You can know that the police detain you and what its like, you can even become pretty good at working within that time frame, or the time frame within county hold, or perhaps during an appearance before a judge. But what would change if you understood the logic of policing poor neighborhoods or the logic of what police are to States, or in what ways the carceral apparatus is a product of capital, what these things or individuals are to the imposed economic system. This would arm you with an understanding of the logical processes which you cannot necessarily see, and alter your response to these systems or 'the system', within or outside of these situations. It would no longer be perceived as them just doing their job because we can come to understand what 'jobs' are. It's no longer just going to work because we have an understanding of what work is, where it came from, and what role it serves.
This imo is a tactical shift away from being a subject and towards resistance or self defense.
I think I largely agree with what you've brought up in this thread and as I also mentioned in my first post of the thread I agreed with Chinaski that nothing is physically stopping a lot of people from just doing it, in theory it's easy. It's however obvious that cowardice isn't an empty buzzword simply meaning a lack of bravery but is loaded with societal influence.
If existence for people as citizens within society is autonomic in character (which is a claim I'm making), how much of an awareness is possible to anything outside of it? If society is socially constructed both physically and logically, then how much of an awareness is possible to anything other than a dominant logic? I think people are afraid of being permanently injured, hurting loved ones, and so on, but there is definitely a pervasive trend of people struggling to understand beyond. In this way, my point isn't that nobody never does, just that it is present and thus telling people that they're not ready to go unless they're going ignores those who are ready to go, are still struggling to understand their thoughts, while caught in between the artifice of society and freedom. If you want to see a bad go look there.
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TAW122
Emissary of the right to die.
- Aug 30, 2018
- 6,849
This is true to an extent and you aren't wrong. However, I do wonder then how was MLK very successful in bringing out social change and the civil rights movement of the 60's?
@waived Good responses and if more people are resisting said system actively, then perhaps that would change how suicide prevention is handled and even provoke an response enough to question whether their own means are effective or not. I think for any change it would be gradual steps towards a major change. By that I mean for example, if enough people stopped trying to open up or actively resisted and made it more difficult for the oppressors (the vast majority of society including people in positions of authority and professionals), it would at least make them question or change their ways. If anything, if it could open up an honest dialogue or at least destigmatize and allow some open, honest discussion, then that would be a step to change the process of involuntary commitment and even push for better treatment of the suicidal (less punitive, less cruel, and more humane, more compassionate). Throughout time, if enough of these small, gradual steps are taken, then it will slowly shift society towards decriminalizing and abolishing involuntary commitment or at least less and less often. Even if there isn't a total legalization of voluntary euthanasia (as much as our ambitious dreams and vision of such a society), it would at least decriminalize suicidality and less punitive treatment of the suicidal people.
As of current day, society and the people who are anti-choice, anti-suicide have this mentality and attitude towards that 'suicide is never an option.' 'suicide is a result of mental illness.' 'suicide is always irrational/not the right mind.' 'suicidal people are depressed.' etc. So to start things off, these attitudes and misconceptions will need to be changed. Starting from the basics, it would start off with people who are terminally ill, who have chronic illness, and those who are otherwise rational and sane, but are suffering greatly. That one starting point would be our jumping off point/springboard to push for change. This one point if proven correctly would dispel the myth that suicidal people or people who want to die are depressed or irrational. (e.g. someone who is terminally ill but otherwise in their right state of mind should have the capacity to choose whether to live or die.)
Let me know if I'm on the right track with this.
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Smilla
Visionary
- Apr 30, 2018
- 2,549
If someone is naive enough to declare their suicidal intentions to a professional, wouldn't it then follow that they aren't rational enough to commit a "rational" suicide in the first place, at least in the current pro-life climate?
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Smilla
Visionary
- Apr 30, 2018
- 2,549
Psychiatry needs to be abolished as a medical specialty and continued to be revealed as the pseudo-science it is. There are organizations such as anti psychiatry.org who are working towards this aim.
I object to having any medical doctor tell me whether or not I am allowed to die, so I object to the Netherlands method of "medical committees" and others facilitation of death via "professionals" who will always use some kind of ambiguous medical "model" to determine if death is "warranted". I want MDs and PHds and social workers out of the equation as much as possible.
Fuck psychiatry and the mental health industry, seriously.
I object to having any medical doctor tell me whether or not I am allowed to die, so I object to the Netherlands method of "medical committees" and others facilitation of death via "professionals" who will always use some kind of ambiguous medical "model" to determine if death is "warranted". I want MDs and PHds and social workers out of the equation as much as possible.
Fuck psychiatry and the mental health industry, seriously.
waived
I am a sunrise
- Jan 5, 2019
- 974
There is a text titled pacifism as pathology, and another titled how nonviolence protects the state (which draws from the prior), that I think you'd be interested in looking at. They are available free to read online. It covers a history of movements and cites how MLK wasn't opposed to violence, and that it was a white doctrine of nonviolence that was imposed onto the movement i.e. a cooptation. It discusses how States and society create and wield such moments to regain their own stability and guarantee their continuation. Is change more likely to occur from situations where people are symbolically being arrested and being permitted other activities by the system they're being killed by or in situations where an armed wing of the state can't safely enter into entire sections of cities. That would be an example of a dominant logic preventing people from understanding and making decisions.
I'm gonna have to look at your reply later.
No, that's victim blaming. It's not a requirement in order to understand the position of the pro life climate in order to be able to commit rational suicide.
If you would like, I can explain this to you reasonably well, it's just going to be long, not short as this stuff gets complicated fast. As a general rule of thumb only systems we fully understand are black and white like tic tac toe.
Misanthrope
Mage
- Oct 23, 2018
- 557
I think psychiatry could do with a serious overhaul. It has become ridiculously reductionist to the point we are all just a bag of misfiring chemicals. I find this deeply irritating because there is scant evidence that is solely the case. The whole 'chemical imbalance' thing was born out of misconstrued science and harnessed for profit and convenience by an industry and turned into useful marketing rhetoric. It dismisses life experiences and societies continuing role of feeding toxic environments that break people in the first place. Or produce equally toxic people that go on to break yet more people. It is an exceptionally lazy, (cheap/profitable) way of dealing with mental disorders. I have more faith in neuroscience, to be honest.
I am also encouraged by the various shadows being chased across various disciplines. Unfortunately, in the meantime, we are stuck with flawed systems and equally flawed antiquated laws. It may be unpopular here but I understand the need to detain people against their will. You would have to demonstrate there are no impaired impulsive mental states or come up with a robust alternative solution that keeps those people in mind, for me to believe otherwise.
At the same time though I am aware emotions are somewhat nebulous so expecting the same standards of medicine seems a bit unlikely. We really need a more whole approach that takes a range of factors into account. Such approaches barely exist though. As they cost a lot of money to implement.
Where I worked we had a whole approach to mental health that focused on various aspects of quality of life. The long term recovery outcomes were pretty damn amazing. Then that service got cut so its back to reductionist methodology, and no care in the community, and maybe being encouraged to call Samaritans or have a nice hot bath and read a book… It is utterly absurd. Especially as this will simply lead to a greater cost to government further down the line that falls on other front line services. Entirely dense shortsighted false economic reasoning to cut such a program. They have not actually saved anything! Sigh...
People deserve better than the shit systems that rule over us. You only have to look at the predictors of suicide to see the societal element at work. It though is ignored frequently which just makes no fucking sense to me! Nor does the constant failure of Psychiatry to academically investigate rational suicide, it is barely even considered or mentioned in the literature. So the status quo of all suicides being probably down to mental illness is never formally challenged. The cynic in me believes it is a method to simply individualise larger problems so as not to have to make societal changes in the first place.
It would help if early prevention was a greater focus as well. Getting people out of abusive situations, arming people with confidence building skills and the capacity to socialise and do the stupid workers dance of acting to get a job. Or poverty was better tackled and not simply pointed at as personal choice due to chaotic lifestyles. It would help if loneliness was treated like an impending heart attack. It would also help if stress wasn't so trivialised. When it is fact, that stress worsens and provokes every condition going.
Instead, people wind up abandoned then completely break down before 'help' is then forced on them. Which at that point has probably pissed them off so much, it is viewed as an attack. Instead of any improvement to these utterly stupid systems. I am instead witnessing in my country the weaponising of psychiatric labels against people who dissent against authoritarian systems. I am seeing a shift to a mentality of work cures all ills. To the point, it is starting to contaminate medical spaces with a push towards a job outcome. Even if that person is too ill to go downstairs and get the mail at that time.
I could rant about this shit for days.
I don't have any solutions left. I will though point out reducing 'pro-life' arguments down to caricatures is not productive if you are pushing for legislative changes. In those spaces, you are debating people that use competency laws as their foundation of reasoning. Or an entire organisation of the disabled, scared of societal coercion that they are already on the sharp end of, even if it means they or others have to suffer. It is important to dismantle the foundation of their reasoning instead of simply assuming they are potentially just stupid and evil. Sadly though there are wizards still, but I call them fundamentalists wielding significant influence and able to withhold campaign donations. I guess that is a kind of magic...
As an aside I have seen some of the American adverts for antidepressants, my god no wonder mental illness is trivialised so readily over there. Take this and shed your depression coat and be happy, live the life you want! It is utterly dumb. It would have made me laugh so hard but it just underscores how absurd it and everything else is becoming.
I am also encouraged by the various shadows being chased across various disciplines. Unfortunately, in the meantime, we are stuck with flawed systems and equally flawed antiquated laws. It may be unpopular here but I understand the need to detain people against their will. You would have to demonstrate there are no impaired impulsive mental states or come up with a robust alternative solution that keeps those people in mind, for me to believe otherwise.
At the same time though I am aware emotions are somewhat nebulous so expecting the same standards of medicine seems a bit unlikely. We really need a more whole approach that takes a range of factors into account. Such approaches barely exist though. As they cost a lot of money to implement.
Where I worked we had a whole approach to mental health that focused on various aspects of quality of life. The long term recovery outcomes were pretty damn amazing. Then that service got cut so its back to reductionist methodology, and no care in the community, and maybe being encouraged to call Samaritans or have a nice hot bath and read a book… It is utterly absurd. Especially as this will simply lead to a greater cost to government further down the line that falls on other front line services. Entirely dense shortsighted false economic reasoning to cut such a program. They have not actually saved anything! Sigh...
People deserve better than the shit systems that rule over us. You only have to look at the predictors of suicide to see the societal element at work. It though is ignored frequently which just makes no fucking sense to me! Nor does the constant failure of Psychiatry to academically investigate rational suicide, it is barely even considered or mentioned in the literature. So the status quo of all suicides being probably down to mental illness is never formally challenged. The cynic in me believes it is a method to simply individualise larger problems so as not to have to make societal changes in the first place.
It would help if early prevention was a greater focus as well. Getting people out of abusive situations, arming people with confidence building skills and the capacity to socialise and do the stupid workers dance of acting to get a job. Or poverty was better tackled and not simply pointed at as personal choice due to chaotic lifestyles. It would help if loneliness was treated like an impending heart attack. It would also help if stress wasn't so trivialised. When it is fact, that stress worsens and provokes every condition going.
Instead, people wind up abandoned then completely break down before 'help' is then forced on them. Which at that point has probably pissed them off so much, it is viewed as an attack. Instead of any improvement to these utterly stupid systems. I am instead witnessing in my country the weaponising of psychiatric labels against people who dissent against authoritarian systems. I am seeing a shift to a mentality of work cures all ills. To the point, it is starting to contaminate medical spaces with a push towards a job outcome. Even if that person is too ill to go downstairs and get the mail at that time.
I could rant about this shit for days.
I don't have any solutions left. I will though point out reducing 'pro-life' arguments down to caricatures is not productive if you are pushing for legislative changes. In those spaces, you are debating people that use competency laws as their foundation of reasoning. Or an entire organisation of the disabled, scared of societal coercion that they are already on the sharp end of, even if it means they or others have to suffer. It is important to dismantle the foundation of their reasoning instead of simply assuming they are potentially just stupid and evil. Sadly though there are wizards still, but I call them fundamentalists wielding significant influence and able to withhold campaign donations. I guess that is a kind of magic...
As an aside I have seen some of the American adverts for antidepressants, my god no wonder mental illness is trivialised so readily over there. Take this and shed your depression coat and be happy, live the life you want! It is utterly dumb. It would have made me laugh so hard but it just underscores how absurd it and everything else is becoming.
Misanthrope
Mage
- Oct 23, 2018
- 557
I would be interested in your explanation as well.
@Misanthrope "I think psychiatry could do with a serious overhaul. It has become ridiculously reductionist to the point we are all just a bag of misfiring chemicals. I find this deeply irritating because there is scant evidence that is solely the case. The whole 'chemical imbalance' thing was born out of misconstrued science and harnessed for profit and convenience by an industry and turned into useful marketing rhetoric. It dismisses life experiences and societies continuing role of feeding toxic environments that break people in the first place. Or produce equally toxic people that go on to break yet more people. It is an exceptionally lazy, (cheap/profitable) way of dealing with mental disorders. I have more faith in neuroscience, to be honest."
Psychiatry also believes in magic. Lack of serotonin hypothesis = depression, is so untrue than any critical amount of thinking shows it. It's a hypothesis that has never been proven, despite all their numerous attempts. They even give drugs that decrease serotonin as a treatment option that work just as well, with Ivan Kirsch(head Harvard placebo researched going on a crusade against antidepressants who think his metanalysis prove antidepressants simply work as well as a placebo for every form of depression ) They will generally tell you taking an antidepressant is like taking insulin for diabetes, even though that reflects a poor understanding of diabetes as well and exercise is an effective of a treatment option alone for most forms of depression and anxiety. This is reflected in countries with less big pharma lobbying. Ie if you go to a Doctor in Australia for depression they will usually ask you if you have tried exercise as it's as effective of a treatment option as pills for most forms of depression and anxiety. Part of the problem as well is the placebo has 2/3 of the effect usually. So if you tell people exercise is not going to work, its actually jeopardizing the largest effect being placebo. Beyond that studies show social relationships are generally the largest factor in happiness, depression etc which is exactly what we would expect due to how we evolved. Drugs are more profitable though, so you know fuck people. It's also even worse because as a general rule, antidepressants effectiveness are just based on whatever two studies give the best results which is by their doctors. No double blind is not a magical protection against all corruption. These are the same guys who convinced the public including doctors opiates are not addictive recently, gay is actual a mental disorder etc. It's so naïve to think they still don't do similar things epically when they spend more on legal bribery than anyone else including the military. Do you realize how ridiculous that is?
"I am also encouraged by the various shadows being chased across various disciplines. Unfortunately, in the meantime, we are stuck with flawed systems and equally flawed antiquated laws. It may be unpopular here but I understand the need to detain people against their will. You would have to demonstrate there are no impaired impulsive mental states or come up with a robust alternative solution that keeps those people in mind, for me to believe otherwise."
The default position is innocent until proven guilty not vise versa. You have to demonstrate the person is in an impaired mental state, which is problematic because as many as 3/4 detained are not in a impaired mental state. All I want is our suicide policy to be based on science rather than monotheism and magic. I am okay with flaws I just want us to be attempting to get it right, it's just simply not going to happen any time soon though.
"At the same time though I am aware emotions are somewhat nebulous so expecting the same standards of medicine seems a bit unlikely. We really need a more whole approach that takes a range of factors into account. Such approaches barely exist though. As they cost a lot of money to implement."
Actually it we go through all the factors it would probably be much cheaper and you would accomplish that silly unimportant goal of majorly helping people. America spends the most on health care in the world by far by every metric yet ranks poorly in life expectancy and infant mortality. Doctors cartel high salaries do not mean better doctors.
"People deserve better than the shit systems that rule over us. You only have to look at the predictors of suicide to see the societal element at work. It though is ignored frequently which just makes no fucking sense to me! Nor does the constant failure of Psychiatry to academically investigate rational suicide, it is barely even considered or mentioned in the literature. So the status quo of all suicides being probably down to mental illness is never formally challenged. T"he cynic in me believes it is a method to simply individualise larger problems so as not to have to make societal changes in the first place."
They never even established was normal is. They just claim life is always worth it because it's always worth it, if you disagree you are just ill. You could easily diagnose this thinking as a mental disorder, for control. It's based on circular magical reasoning. Most of their fields believe in free will, the mind etc. It's ridiculous magic. I do not respect believes that are not respectable.
Psychiatry also believes in magic. Lack of serotonin hypothesis = depression, is so untrue than any critical amount of thinking shows it. It's a hypothesis that has never been proven, despite all their numerous attempts. They even give drugs that decrease serotonin as a treatment option that work just as well, with Ivan Kirsch(head Harvard placebo researched going on a crusade against antidepressants who think his metanalysis prove antidepressants simply work as well as a placebo for every form of depression ) They will generally tell you taking an antidepressant is like taking insulin for diabetes, even though that reflects a poor understanding of diabetes as well and exercise is an effective of a treatment option alone for most forms of depression and anxiety. This is reflected in countries with less big pharma lobbying. Ie if you go to a Doctor in Australia for depression they will usually ask you if you have tried exercise as it's as effective of a treatment option as pills for most forms of depression and anxiety. Part of the problem as well is the placebo has 2/3 of the effect usually. So if you tell people exercise is not going to work, its actually jeopardizing the largest effect being placebo. Beyond that studies show social relationships are generally the largest factor in happiness, depression etc which is exactly what we would expect due to how we evolved. Drugs are more profitable though, so you know fuck people. It's also even worse because as a general rule, antidepressants effectiveness are just based on whatever two studies give the best results which is by their doctors. No double blind is not a magical protection against all corruption. These are the same guys who convinced the public including doctors opiates are not addictive recently, gay is actual a mental disorder etc. It's so naïve to think they still don't do similar things epically when they spend more on legal bribery than anyone else including the military. Do you realize how ridiculous that is?
"I am also encouraged by the various shadows being chased across various disciplines. Unfortunately, in the meantime, we are stuck with flawed systems and equally flawed antiquated laws. It may be unpopular here but I understand the need to detain people against their will. You would have to demonstrate there are no impaired impulsive mental states or come up with a robust alternative solution that keeps those people in mind, for me to believe otherwise."
The default position is innocent until proven guilty not vise versa. You have to demonstrate the person is in an impaired mental state, which is problematic because as many as 3/4 detained are not in a impaired mental state. All I want is our suicide policy to be based on science rather than monotheism and magic. I am okay with flaws I just want us to be attempting to get it right, it's just simply not going to happen any time soon though.
"At the same time though I am aware emotions are somewhat nebulous so expecting the same standards of medicine seems a bit unlikely. We really need a more whole approach that takes a range of factors into account. Such approaches barely exist though. As they cost a lot of money to implement."
Actually it we go through all the factors it would probably be much cheaper and you would accomplish that silly unimportant goal of majorly helping people. America spends the most on health care in the world by far by every metric yet ranks poorly in life expectancy and infant mortality. Doctors cartel high salaries do not mean better doctors.
"People deserve better than the shit systems that rule over us. You only have to look at the predictors of suicide to see the societal element at work. It though is ignored frequently which just makes no fucking sense to me! Nor does the constant failure of Psychiatry to academically investigate rational suicide, it is barely even considered or mentioned in the literature. So the status quo of all suicides being probably down to mental illness is never formally challenged. T"he cynic in me believes it is a method to simply individualise larger problems so as not to have to make societal changes in the first place."
They never even established was normal is. They just claim life is always worth it because it's always worth it, if you disagree you are just ill. You could easily diagnose this thinking as a mental disorder, for control. It's based on circular magical reasoning. Most of their fields believe in free will, the mind etc. It's ridiculous magic. I do not respect believes that are not respectable.
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Here is a start.
So who do you think has had the biggest impact on history? Alexander the Great? Gandhi? Muhammad?
When you are a nerd like I am and you plot all the data is because clear no one has effected the graph at all. Only on thing has ever majorly improved quality of life, standard of living, life expectancy and so on. That is improvements in technology. Let's take slavery. Slavery did not end because people suddenly became more moral, with the last country outlawing slavery in 1961 In Africa. Slavery ended because of the effects of the industrial revolution. The industrial revolution rapidly raised wages, standard of living and quality of life of the average person. Now a machine could do something it took three hundred people to do before. This reduced the needs for slave greatly and brought about the end of slavery.
