Discussion Using pro-lifers' tactics AGAINST them

[Smilla]

Ending up in a psych ward is horrible, and it does feel like punishment. But even though some people think that their decision of ctb is rational (and in many cases of course is), isn't it also a consequence of mental illness? Therefore, that's why it's such a controversial topic... If I saw someone trying to commit suicide, my instinct would make me want them to stop, just as my SI has stopped me when I've wanted to do it to myself. Also, I think that there are many people (again, of course not all) that have wanted to ctb, and then something happens that makes them somehow enjoy life again. Maybe committing suicide should difficult (for people who are not going through a terminal illness, for instance). On this very website, we can read stories about people deciding not to ctb anymore, and so on.

Of course, I would like to die right now with a magic pill, or just don't wake up again the next time I fall asleep. And I'm planning my suicide, but this whole thing is so delicate and irreversible, that it will take a long time before reaching a consensus about what's best for humanity.

So what if it's due to mental illness? Not all mental illness responds to "treatment"; and how many attempts at "treatment" should one subject themselves to, and at what cost?

Also, the definition of mental illness is itself arbitrary, nebulous, and prone to labeling which often further stigmatizes the individual.

 

[Othermind]

isn't it also a consequence of mental illness?

Mental illness is an arbitrary category for those who are not beneficial to and/or are dysfunctional within the political establishment. It serves only to justify punitive action against them such as limiting their freedom and such.

Also, the definition of mental illness is itself arbitrary, nebulous, and prone to labeling which often further stigmatizes the individual.

Dammit beat me to it.

 

[Hopeless_soul]

the definition of mental illness is itself arbitrary, nebulous, and prone to labeling which often further stigmatizes the individual.

You're right. But it's still an illness, in some cases, at least (not saying that mental illness should define you as an individual). I know there are unscrupulous psychiatrists and the health system is far from perfect, and people are judgemental and ignorant, and so on... but well, that's another topic.

 

[Whiskeyjames]

Just keep in mind that in general population (nearly all countries/socirtsoc), generally there are 1-3% of people deserve to die as they truly evil or truly holding the society back. And 1%-3%that truly angel hearted/leading mankind to a better place. Majority of us are just inbeteeeners...

 

[TAW122]

Society DOES impose life when it can easily do so.

I agree. This is the default action of society, sometimes even overriding, overlooking a DNR. There are simply too many ways to push for life and too few ways for death, especially a controlled, dignified death.

This is precisely the problem: the suicide prevention folks are not actively ameliorating suffering per se, nor are they necessarily empathizing with the person who is contemplating suicide if their sole goal is to prevent the person from committing suicide without understaning their situation and the underlying reasons for their suicidal feelings.

Suicidal people are labeled mentally ill by the greater society because we live in a very pro-life, pro-Natalist society, which touts that existing is automatically better than not existing, and one which is in complete denial of death. Sometimes, suicide really IS the answer, but society won't accept this.

Exactly, well said. That is the main mindset of most suicide preventionists. They only care that someone is alive, regardless of the circumstances that one is in and most may say they care about all this, all that, blah situations, but in reality, it's a big damn lie. They just don't want the culpability and blood on their hands or liabilities that result from it. Like one former member on here once said "your misery doesn't matter as long as your heart is still beating." really illustrates how society at large treats people in general.

As for the people jumping from bridge scenario,i do not bemoan the person who will go there and start a conversation etc.
If someone wants to make an argument for life and try to change the mind of the suicidal,thats fine.
If he starts grabbing him,thats more significant.He is taking responsibility then.
If it is a suicidal child i can understand that.If not,then i would advise caution in any case...

Agreed and I too, draw the line where active intervention takes part. Active intervention such as trying to physically or in other ways, directly/indirectly preventing the other person from successfully taking his/her own life is a HUGE violation of that person's right to die. In regards to the suicidal child (assume pre-teen or younger), while it is gray, at least there is some grounds to why a child shouldn't suicide, especially if it is impulse and if said child's situation "may" get better. When a person is an legal adult (18+ in the US), then it's up to the individual what he/she wishes to do with his/her body.

I do understand the frustration someone might feel over legislation that limits their ability to safely and reliably commit suicide. Yes, it's technically not illegal to catch the bus, but you might well end up locked in a psych ward against your will after a failed attempt, and that's tantamount to being punished for it. This is something that actually stems from a pro-life sentiment, so I'm inclined to sympathize with someone being unhappy about it.

Of course, no amount of ranting will ever make the situation change, but like I said, I understand the resentment some people have, and if they want to vent on an online forum I see no harm in it.

Thanks for seeing my purpose of creating this thread.

People don't seem to understand that suicide is actually rational in more cases than they would like to admit, and it shows a glaring lack of empathy to not feel otherwise.

Exactly and the most frustrating thing is that any and most non-suicidal people, not even staunch pro-lifers and suicide-preventionists will often deflect, twist, and pull the conversation into the person is mentally ill, and just immediately go on the defensive as well as apprehensive attitude towards anyone talking about it. This includes even talking about in a rational manner. There is just no reliable way to even have a "rational" and "objective" discussion in regards to suicide. It's almost always one-sided and even risky to discuss this with most other people.

 

[Othermind]

But it's still an illness, in some cases,

If you mean depression having physiological symptoms such as unbalanced amounts of neurotransmitters, elevated stress hormones etc. classifies it as a "real" illness I still don't think it holds up.
What causes those symptoms is in most cases societal and political in nature, otherwise you couldn't explain the epidemic proportions this disease has grown to in recent years due to economic crises, dwindling prospects for a good life and utter alienation brought about by late stage capitalism. Yeah, you could slap a "sick" label on those who cannot function or exhibit "aberrant" behaviors under such conditions, but you could just as easily do that with those that do fine.

 

[Hopeless_soul]

If you mean depression having physiological symptoms such as unbalanced amounts of neurotransmitters, elevated stress hormones etc. I still don't think it holds up.
What causes those symptoms is in most cases societal and political in nature, otherwise you couldn't explain the epidemic proportions this disease has grown to in recent years due to economic crises, dwindling prospects for a good life and utter alienation brought about by late stage capitalism. Yeah, you could slap a "sick" label on those who cannot function or exhibit "aberrant" behaviors under such conditions, but you could just as easily do that with those that do fine.

Yeah, sure. I'm not advocating the opposite. I've been depressed all my life. I know what it feels. I'm not a pro-lifer, eh. I think most of us here know what depression feels like. It doesn't really matter. I just want to disappear, ffs. Just remember that a guy like Derek Humpfry stands on the very delicate line of being a death facilitator and a merciless sadist.

 

[Chinaski]

Yes.I have a choice.
The problem is people who do not have the full capacity to CTB.

Covered that above, quite clearly, pay attention or don't bother, frankly.

Will return to your question later @Smilla ,very busy atm.

 

[Chinaski]

@


Ouch.

Am curious about your opinion on a situation I almost found myself in last April.

I became friends with someone on the old SS site on Reddit who asked me if I would be willing to be on the phone with him while he CTB. This is a person I got to know off line via long phone conversations and emails, and I knew his reasons for wanting to die in and out, and backwards and forewords. If I had been in his shoes I would want to die also, and he understood my reasons as well. Ultimately he had an irl friend who was physically there with him when he passed away peacefully with N, but prior to that arrangement I had agreed to be on the phone with him, but would not actively encourage him and would only call ems on his behalf if he adamantly expressed a desire not to die after ingesting the N.

You said "any decent person" would stop a suicide. I disagree with this completely—surely if I saw a stranger on a bridge I would ask them if they wanted to talk for a bit and see if we could come up with a plan, but I would not forcibly pull them off the bridge.

Edit: I'd pull them off if they were a kid.

Well, seeing as you asked my opinion, here it is:

I'm not going to draw a full equivalence of what l would do in the situation you described, its a situation that's very personal to you and, if I'm honest, one I'd prefer to stay clear of. I know my limits in terms of emotional stability and that situation is beyond mine; you're perhaps much tougher, more resilient than l am in that regard.

What l will explicitly say is that l personally don't want you, Smilla, to ctb. I'd prefer for you to hang in there in the hope that you have an unlikely fairytale ending. I only tell you this now in the context of this discussion. I'm never going to dissuade you or go to any effort to prevent you, and this is because l know exactly how it is to be desperate and genuinely suicidal. I'm not going to encourage you either, because it's something l don't want to happen. This is how suicide in its real sense is very different to euthanasia and abortion. I respect the right of the individual to make their own decision and to act as they see fit, but if anyone asks my opinion as to whether they should ctb, the answer will always be "no".

You say you'd pull a kid from jumping off a bridge, but not an adult. How are you going to gauge that? You'll ask for ID? And what's too young? 16? 18? 21? Would you erroneously rescue a babyfaced 23 year old but leave a craggy 17 year old to leap? We all have our red lines here, where suicide becomed unpalatable, even to us, the actual suicidal. People who have never experienced suicidal ideation will naturally have a significantly greater number of red lines when it comes to intervening in a suicide, and this is natural, not political.

 

[waived]

Just keep in mind that in general population (nearly all countries/socirtsoc), generally there are 1-3% of people deserve to die as they truly evil or truly holding the society back. And 1%-3%that truly angel hearted/leading mankind to a better place. Majority of us are just inbeteeeners...

What is evil and how is that definition influenced and maintained by the current trending society? How does that definition dramatically change and why? What is your or my own definition or understanding of what society is? How exactly does society see itself and is it universal, why? How can there possibly be a singular better place for all people and how could any individual or group possibly have that knowledge and then carry it out? Not minutia but quite the contrary what is good and bad?

 

[NoOneKnows]

I've absolutely no idea why I'd want to use 'tactics' in an ideological battle that doesn't exist. Suicide is not a political gesture, and nobody is truly prevented from suicide by a "pro lifer". The regular theme of posts on this forum expressing an utterly futile anger at some perceived, politically powerful enemy who systematically prevents people from committing suicide is an absolute nonsense. Literally nobody imposes life on anyone and these discussions and MAN I HATE PRO-LIFERS rants are the equivalent of smokers writing extensively about their hatred of pious non-smokers. We're all at liberty to ctb, right now, this very second, and absolutely none of us are still here simply because these pesky pro-lifers won't allow a Dignitas on every street corner.

The battle DOES exist apparently, it is a political issue among others and SOME people ARE TRULY prevented from suicide. It is of utmost importance to keep this topic on the table and engage in healthy discussion.
"utterly futile anger at some perceived, politically powerful enemy who systematically prevents people from committing suicide is an absolute nonsense." - this is quite a shocker to hear from someone on suicidal forum, have you ever been locked i n a psych ward involuntarily,? how many psychiatrists have you visited, ? how many and what kind of medication was forced into your body, permanently changing your brain chemistry and even causing diabetes !??
I dont know what country are you located in, but here probably suprisingly for you, people are still commited even for reasons as being incovenient from political standpoint, yes it still happens.I will offer JUST my example quickly to illustrate the point (and there are many disgusting stories) I have been involuntarily hospitalized, becasue I did attempt to CBT and the attemp was used against me ,when I said to them honestly(was stupid enough) i did it due to my chronic debilitating health issues and abusive relative, the relative (malignant narcissist) used this CTB attempt for her advantage, lied about my whole life, falsely accused me of physically attacking her. They diagnosed me with the most severe psych disease there is, i wont go into details, but I was abused all my life, but the abuse I withand in the psych ward I can not even discuss, its surreal, I would never imagine this can happen. 30 years of struggle to build my liofe from nothing, that cost me my physical health was destroyed just like that with a made up diagnosis. Now anything happens I can be commited anytime(and i will be blamed always), and drugged with pills that caused me already irreversible damage.(brain,damage- blocked dopamine, metabolic syndrome ,etc) .Anyway there is much more, and I also am aware of other people ive been talking to whether in real, or online. So yes , I am threatened to be commited for as long as it takes, and drugged so badly, that believe me, I can not plan CTB in such a condition, its a chemical lobotomy. So claiming there is an illusionary battle really stem from ignorance.
The truth is everyone have different reasons why they push their agressive pro life agenda, for the medical people ,there are big money in it obviously, if we kill ourselves, they will lost a lot of revenue (from medication, etc) ,plus it finally become obvious to a larger uninvolved population that psychiatric medication is not as powerful and reliable as they claim (its known many of the research studies are propaganda).
LArge number of population have blind trust in psychiatry ,becasuei n the end is a science of the "crazy people" and blindly obey whatever they come up with, like a preachers word. Thats why the abuse in psychiatric field was/is so rampant and covered up.
So i dont want to indulge here in teh battle, i have no more energy to left, and i need it for the final days, I jsut felt i need to react on those statement .thanks if u read it all.

 

[Smilla]

Well, seeing as you asked my opinion, here it is:

I'm not going to draw a full equivalence of what l would do in the situation you described, its a situation that's very personal to you and, if I'm honest, one I'd prefer to stay clear of. I know my limits in terms of emotional stability and that situation is beyond mine; you're perhaps much tougher, more resilient than l am in that regard.

What l will explicitly say is that l personally don't want you, Smilla, to ctb. I'd prefer for you to hang in there in the hope that you have an unlikely fairytale ending. I only tell you this now in the context of this discussion. I'm never going to dissuade you or go to any effort to prevent you, and this is because l know exactly how it is to be desperate and genuinely suicidal. I'm not going to encourage you either, because it's something l don't want to happen. This is how suicide in its real sense is very different to euthanasia and abortion. I respect the right of the individual to make their own decision and to act as they see fit, but if anyone asks my opinion as to whether they should ctb, the answer will always be "no".

You say you'd pull a kid from jumping off a bridge, but not an adult. How are you going to gauge that? You'll ask for ID? And what's too young? 16? 18? 21? Would you erroneously rescue a babyfaced 23 year old but leave a craggy 17 year old to leap? We all have our red lines here, where suicide becomed unpalatable, even to us, the actual suicidal. People who have never experienced suicidal ideation will naturally have a significantly greater number of red lines when it comes to intervening in a suicide, and this is natural, not political.

I don't know how young they would be for me to qualify.

For me personally, and I think for many other here (especially the over 30 crowd) is that suicide is the lesser of the two evils: stay alive in abject misery or die. Some of us have lived for decades with ptsd, loneliness, inability to connect with others, anhedonia, financial fears because of inability to work, multiple inpatient hospitalizations, etc.

The Netherlands recognizes that death is sometimes preferable to continuing on. I wish the greater public would see the humanity in their policies.

 

[Chinaski]

The Netherlands recognizes that death is sometimes preferable to continuing on. I wish the greater public would see the humanity in their policies.

Most suicidal people would agree with that; my problem is not with that sentiment in itself, although it is one l agree with broadly there are issues I'd have with such a policy that going deeply into would derail the thread.

My problem is people on a suicide forum raging against pro-lifers, as if they are the sole reason they haven't been able to ctb. We all know suicide is not easy but the notion that there is a cabal of powerful and influential PRO LIFE BASTARDS in a room somewhere deliberately stifling individual plans to ctb is a huge pile of shit, frankly. There's a train every hour round my way, ropes are available in every reputable DIY store, you yourself have your own method in your avatar. I fail to see how PRO LIFE COCKSUCKERS are standing in the way of any ctb.

Further, l must reiterate the important distinction between suicide and euthanasia that l made earlier in this thread, which has been lost and (deliberately) misunderstood or ignored. If people wish to campaign for broadening euthanasia access and criteria, there are plenty of strong organisations that would accept that help. If people just want to gripe because suicide is difficult and nobody will provide them with a Sarco machine, l can't get on board with that. The decision to suicide (or not) rests with each individual ultimately, and the decision to ctb is one we're free to act upon.

 

[Smilla]

Most suicidal people would agree with that; my problem is not with that sentiment in itself, although it is one l agree with broadly there are issues I'd have with such a policy that going deeply into would derail the thread.

My problem is people on a suicide forum raging against pro-lifers, as if they are the sole reason they haven't been able to ctb. We all know suicide is not easy but the notion that there is a cabal of powerful and influential PRO LIFE BASTARDS in a room somewhere deliberately stifling individual plans to ctb is a huge pile of shit, frankly. There's a train every hour round my way, ropes are available in every reputable DIY store, you yourself have your own method in your avatar. I fail to see how PRO LIFE COCKSUCKERS are standing in the way of any ctb.

Further, l must reiterate the important distinction between suicide and euthanasia that l made earlier in this thread, which has been lost and (deliberately) misunderstood or ignored. If people wish to campaign for broadening euthanasia access and criteria, there are plenty of strong organisations that would accept that help. If people just want to gripe because suicide is difficult and nobody will provide them with a Sarco machine, l can't get on board with that. The decision to suicide (or not) rests with each individual ultimately, and the decision to ctb is one we're free to act upon.

Did you ever consider the possibility that a sincere and even well planned attempt could fail, leaving one worse off than before? Why should I have to live with that fear going into my attempt, which makes it all the more frightening? Death should be a sweet release from pain or a celebration of a life well lived.

Having to sneak alone into a hotel with a nitrogen tank and a plastic bag isn't my idea of a "peaceful" death (although the method is) or heaven help us, decapitating yourself with a train.

If a maid walks in after the gas is on for only a few minutes she could rip the bag off, leaving me a vegetable.

We need a better way.

Suicide in my case is a shitty end to a shitty life but if I lived in the Netherlands at least I would have peace of mind, and emotional support and most importantely the knowledge that I will, in fact, be dead.

 

[Smilla]

While I don't agree with the OPs tactics against the establishment he is correct that the tides are heavily swayed against suicide, especially the idea of rational suicide in the absence of a physical illness.

If one is to call a suicide hotline, they can trace the call and do a "welfare check". Even Facebook has joined the pro-life/life is always better powers that be when they instituted their algorithms to seek out suicidal people and "help" them by shutting down their accounts when they need their friends the most.

And the raids in the UK and AU on elderly people? Having their N seized? Wouldn't that be "pro-life cocksuckers" standing in the way of CTB? So I guess they can always throw themselves in front of a train, huh.

 

[Chinaski]

Did you ever consider the possibility that a sincere and even well planned attempt could fail, leaving one worse off then before? Why should I have to live with that fear going into my attempt, which makes it all the more frightening? Death should be a sweet release from pain or a celebration of a life well lived.

Having to sneak alone into a hotel with a nitrogen tank and a plastic bag isn't my idea of a "peaceful" death (although the method is) or heaven help us, decapitating yourself with a train.

If a maid walks in after the gas is on for only a few minutes she could rip the bag off, leaving me a vegetable.

We need a better way.

Suicide in my case is a shitty end to a shitty life but if I lived in the Netherlands at least I would have peace of mind, and emotional support and most importantely the knowledge that I will, in fact, be dead.

I'm not attacking anyone for not ctbing here, I've stated earlier that I'd prrsonally be much happier to read that you've recovered, won a million dollars and begun living your best life than l would be to read that you've ctb in a grimy motel room, so please don't take anything I've said as a personal judgement upon you. After all, l haven't ctb'd either; l just know that the reason for this is cowardice, and not because somebody, somewhere, is a pro-lifer exercising some non-existent influence.

It's absolutely natural to be scared, be that of death, of failing, of causing pain and distress to others, of survival instinct fucking us over, of being rescued, whatever. I just honestly, seriously, do not see how having a set of 'tactics' to deploy whenever we're faced with some hardline pro-lifer is going to help with that.

Another thing. Nobody talks about suicide with any depth, until somebody actually does it. Pro-life v pro-choice is neither dimner party nor water-cooler conversation. The only time this discussion crops up for me is if l, the actual suicidal guy, hints at the possibility of suicide. I find that the less l talk about my own suicide, the less likely another party is to give their opinion on suicide.

 

[Smilla]

I'm not attacking anyone for not ctbing here, I've stated earlier that I'd prrsonally be much happier to read that you've recovered, won a million dollars and begun living your best life than l would be to read that you've ctb in a grimy motel room, so please don't take anything I've said as a personal judgement upon you. After all, l haven't ctb'd either; l just know that the reason for this is cowardice, and not because somebody, somewhere, is a pro-lifer exercising some non-existent influence.

It's absolutely natural to be scared, be that of death, of failing, of causing pain and distress to others, of survival instinct fucking us over, of being rescued, whatever. I just honestly, seriously, do not see how having a set of 'tactics' to deploy whenever we're faced with some hardline pro-lifer is going to help with that.

Another thing. Nobody talks about suicide with any depth, until somebody actually does it. Pro-life v pro-choice is neither dimner party nor water-cooler conversation. The only time this discussion crops up for me is if l, the actual suicidal guy, hints at the possibility of suicide. I find that the less l talk about my own suicide, the less likely another party is to give their opinion on suicide.

We are silenced and have to do it in secret which compounds the pain. Imagine if we could tell our family and friends-this is how I feel without fear of trying to be talked out of it, or sent to the loony bin.

Anyway, didn't think you were personally attacking me at all.

 

[Chinaski]

And the raids in the UK and AU on elderly people? Having their N seized? Wouldn't that be "pro-life cocksuckers" standing in the way of CTB? So I guess they can always throw themselves in front of a train, huh.

We're going in circles here. No, the government is not going to be persuaded to kill you with a peaceful injection at a time of your choosing. You can spend your life arguing that they should do exactly that if you wish, or you can literally use your available method and find your own peace. That's it, basically.

"I want to ctb but can't because pro lifers make it impossible" is just not true, you can be offended at my choice of phrasing but l don't know how many times l have to make the same argument. Ctb. Don't ctb. Your choice, nobody else's.

 

[Smilla]

We're going in circles here. No, the government is not going to be persuaded to kill you with a peaceful injection at a time of your choosing. You can spend your life arguing that they should do exactly that if you wish, or you can literally use your available method and find your own peace. That's it, basically.

"I want to ctb but can't because pro lifers make it impossible" is just not true, you can be offended at my choice of phrasing but l don't know how many times l have to make the same argument. Ctb. Don't ctb. Your choice, nobody else's.

I never said pro lifers are making it impossible to ctb—they are making it impossible to do so in a safe, dignified, and peaceful manner.

I'm grateful for the assisted dying books out there and for the ability to put together a nitro rig. 20 years ago I would have figured out some other,
more gruesome way.

 

[Chinaski]

I never said pro lifers are making it impossible to ctb—they are making it impossible to do so in a safe, dignified, and peaceful manner.

I'm grateful for the assisted dying books out there and for the ability to put together a nitro rig. 20 years ago I would have figured out some other,
more gruesome way.

20 years ago we could've used CO quite easily in a car, 30 years ago we could've simply stuck our heads in our ovens, and 40 years ago we could've blagged our way to getting free N from our GPs. In this respect ctb has become less convenient, people are more likely to be deterred by the more gruesome methods, but ultimately when people are 100% determined to go, they do still go.

 

[Smilla]

20 years ago we could've used CO quite easily in a car, 30 years ago we could've simply stuck our heads in our ovens, and 40 years ago we could've blagged our way to getting free N from our GPs. In this respect ctb has become less convenient, people are more likely to be deterred by the more gruesome methods, but ultimately when people are 100% determined to go, they do still go.

But that doesn't make it okay- none of these methods are ideal except for the N, and all have to be done in secret, and two of them can endanger others.

Yes, when someone is determined to go they go, I fully agree but why does it have to be so difficult?

I guess my final point is it's inhumane to keep people alive against their will in a psych ward and it's inhumane to force people to die in secret.

 

[RyanSuicide]

"Pro-lifers and suicide-preventionists want suicidal people to stay alive for their benefit and don't want to provide anything for the suicidal person (or as little as possible)."

That's true. Can't argue with that.

 

[Chinaski]

"Pro-lifers and suicide-preventionists want suicidal people to stay alive for their benefit and don't want to provide anything for the suicidal person (or as little as possible)."

That's true. Can't argue with that.

Yeah, it's a huge corporate conspiracy to keep us all alive, this is exactly why we're all on this site right now when otherwise we'd be happily dead.

 

[waived]

Yeah, it's a huge corporate conspiracy to keep us all alive, this is exactly why we're all on this site right now when otherwise we'd be happily dead.

Billions across generations have been led to accept at face value a form of life that has left their entire planet in a state of terminal emergency while being convinced that the daily activity down to the smallest of things and the low quality of life it produces is the inherent limit, or worse and closer to the point of this thread that they are no longer capable of conceiving of 'other', the cognitive process simply doesn't happen at all. Lots have been strong armed, all have been coerced, intimidated, etc. It is literally an ideological conspiracy of the times to suggest that such social control doesn't exist.

 

[Chinaski]

It is literally an ideological conspiracy of the times to suggest that such social control doesn't exist.

Yep. Just as well we're all at liberty to literally kill ourselves, like, right now, eh?

 

[waived]

Yep. Just as well we're at at liberty to literally kill ourselves, like, right now, eh?

I think that telling someone who has had the thought of suicide 'why don't you just do it' is a form of gaslighting that ignores everything i've posted in this thread thus far. It suggests that the person is aware of the mechanisms pulling at them. Is it just a biological drive to live? Does biology include socio-psychological elements as I have proposed? Are those socio-psychological elements political and economic in origin as I have proposed? Perhaps I do not understand you but when you say people are at liberty at any time I think you are confusing the physical possibility or nearness to the act with the logical cognitive process required to pull it off. It is far more efficient to rule logically than physically.

 

[Chinaski]

I think that telling someone who has had the thought of suicide 'why don't you just do it' is a form of gaslighting that ignores everything i've posted in this thread thus far. It suggests that the person is aware of the mechanisms pulling at them. Is it just a biological drive to live? Does biology include socio-psychological elements as I have proposed? Are those socio-psychological elements political and economic in origin as I have proposed? Perhaps I do not understand you but when you say people are at liberty at any time I think you are confusing the physical possibility or nearness to the act with the logical cognitive process required to pull it off.

Tbf everything you've said has been total crap. You're here suggesting that agents of social control are invisibly re-wiring us to not commit suicide. Now, you accept this as a fact, you've seen through this mammoth deceit and grand global deception, and yet you haven't committed suicide, despite being able to do so right now.

Btw l know the word 'gaslighting' is very fashionable on The On Line these days but using it erroneously doesn't augment any argument.

 

[waived]

Tbf everything you've said has been total crap. You're here suggesting that agents of social control are invisibly re-wiring us to not commit suicide. Now, you accept this as a fact, you've seen through this mammoth deceit and grand flobal deception, and yet you haven't committed suicide, despite being able to do so tight now.

Thanks for being fair. Simply because I have the cognitive ability to then physically carry it out doesn't mean I am going to auto-suicide upon that moment of intellectual discovery or acquisition of physical capacity. It isn't prognostication. What happens might prevent it, it might delay it, but regardless it allows for the possibility of an intelligible discerning of our own socio-psychology and pretty much a further understanding of the entirety of the world, whereas before, these socially constructed systems and processes, masquerading as life, remain blindingly cloaked, partially or in full, and have immense influence both on extended misery or perhaps finding happiness.

tldr; telling people who are questioning an abusive influence that the abusive influence doesn't exist keeps them in a state of not understanding, not being able to make decisions, might make people who wouldn't want to check out check out and those who do unable to because of preconceived beliefs.

Btw l know the word 'gaslighting' is very fashionable on The On Line these days but using it erroneously doesn't augment any argument.

It was used correctly and it illustrates the point I made as intended. You are making someone question the integrity of their psychology by telling them that the dominant logic which they identified doesn't exist or doesn't have clout and influence. Not that it does and isn't entirely the whole picture, but that such things don't exist at all. Identifying the power reward in the situation wasn't important to me although I suspect it is internal but the evidence that the dynamic existed was your broad brushing away very obvious evidence in order to continue to present a belief.

 

[Chinaski]

...some words...

Nobody is preventing you from ctb, apart from you. All else is froth.

 

[waived]

Nobody is preventing you from ctb, apart from you. All else is froth.

And I have illustrated why this is objectively false, to which you have no response. I would think since you had so much invested in this thread you would at least be willing to carry a conversation or respond to questioning points but apparently I was incorrect and only those questioning points that allow you to repeat yourself hold merit iyo.