Help Thoughts on Voluntary Assisted Dying (VAD) in Switzerland? For those with chronic and/or debilitating conditions.

[TooMuchHasHappened]

Have any of you guys looked into this before, or better still made an application? Or have you personally known anyone who has died this way? I'm thinking of applying this week and wanted to see if anyone on here has made any enquiries about it before? Or if non of the above, what are your thoughts about this method if a person is eligible?

The laws in Switzerland are pretty relaxed if you have chronic and/or debilitating conditions. I've looked at a few different companies and settled on the one I got the best feeling about (probably the wrong one knowing my luck lol). It's 100CHF (approx $125) for the application fee, then if accepted the remaining balance is paid in two instalments. The total cost for international patients is 9500CHF (approx $12,000), this also includes cremation, URN, and URN shipping. Yes it's expensive, but just pay on a credit card(s), it's not as if you'll have to pay it back. Well, check the laws in your country, but I'm pretty sure in the U.K. that upon death personal debt is written off, so family will not be liable to repay.

For those who are interested, the company I'm looking at starts with an A and ends with an S. I'm not sure if I can give the full name here sorry, I should be able to because it's a legal method, but I don't want to break any rules or anything.

Only Sodium Pentobarbital is used (I wish I could get this myself somehow lol).

I also wanted to post this in case anyone has not considered this before, or are afraid of dying by SN or another method and would prefer to die in a supported medical facility. For those of us with chronic conditions it's definitely something worth considering in my opinion. I'm going to apply sometime this week, it's probably going to take some effort as I'm guessing this won't be an easy process getting all the necessary paperwork etc, but I'm going to give it a shot. The application fee is non refundable if unsuccessful, not much to lose in my opinion.

Edit: Due to an unfortunate and frustrating comment that I received from someone (that will hopefully be deleted), I feel it necessary to make it absolutely clear that this will not be an easy process. I honestly thought (given the fact that it's assisted suicide) that that would go without saying, but even so I still said in my OP that this won't be an easy process (this is now in bold in the OP, and it is the original text I wrote). But for some reason this person said that I was "listing this as easy" even though I literally said that it won't be. I apologise if my post comes across that way despite me saying it won't be easy; I've now took steps to make this even clearer. Anyway, because of this I've had to edit my post and make this comment so hopefully no one else thinks that I'm "listing this as easy" or anything of the sort. I thought that everyone would realise that getting killed legally won't be easy lol.

I spend a lot of time on the vast majority of my posts because I put a lot of thought and effort into them, making changes many times because of my indecisiveness and OCD. Even the short ones take me an unusually long time, in fact I'm starting to think that I suffer with "Post Anxiety" lol. I do this to try and avoid any misunderstandings and/or misinterpretations etc, and avoid getting comments like the one I received. Hopefully this clears everything up.

 

[behindtheveil]

Hey there, I just want to point out it's not as easy or straightforward as you have listed here. They have some of the strictest checks and qualifying criteria. However, if a person has a debilitating condition as you mentioned, then there is some hope.
I got in touch with one of such organizations and to explain them my situation was a tormenting task. It was a shot in the dark so didn't qualify. But one important fact that I came upon from this experience was that there is no standard criteria it seems. Their decision is discretionary.
And yes, ctb via nembutol would be so much better.

 

[DeathSweetDeath]

There would be no point in applying since no one in my family would sign off on it. I hope your family is more understanding than mine. I also chatted with someone here who had applied but didn't realize their spouse would have to agree to it, so that was the end of that.

 

[TooMuchHasHappened]

There would be no point in applying since no one in my family would sign off on it. I hope your family is more understanding than mine. I also chatted with someone here who had applied but didn't realize their spouse would have to agree to it, so that was the end of that.

Really? The family has to sign it off? Well that's the end of that for me too then if that's the case. I would have assumed that it's our decision and nobody else's. I'm single so don't have to worry about a spouse agreeing, but I'm pretty sure my parents (I'm in my 40's btw) would not sign off on it. Couldn't even imagine having that conversation with my parents, in fact yes I can, they'd be absolutely devastated even though they know I've had enough of all this suffering. Thanks a lot for that information, you've just saved me wasting my time and money applying.

 

[TooMuchHasHappened]

Hey there, I just want to point out it's not as easy or straightforward as you have listed here. They have some of the strictest checks and qualifying criteria. However, if a person has a debilitating condition as you mentioned, then there is some hope.
I got in touch with one of such organizations and to explain them my situation was a tormenting task. It was a shot in the dark so didn't qualify. But one important fact that I came upon from this experience was that there is no standard criteria it seems. Their decision is discretionary.
And yes, ctb via nembutol would be so much better.

I apologise that my post came across to you like I was framing assisted suicide as "easy or straightforward". I sincerely did not intend it to come across that way to you or anybody else. I can't understand how it did come across that way because I literally said that it will take some effort and it won't be easy:

it's probably going to take some effort as I'm guessing this won't be an easy process getting all the necessary paperwork etc

I don't know what's involved in the process of assisted suicide (I said in my post that I'd only just started looking into it myself) so I couldn't comment any further on that. When I became aware that it was possible with certain chronic and debilitating conditions, I looked and found a few companies and in Switzerland (as I read that the laws there were pretty relaxed compared to the rest of the world), briefly looked on their websites and at the costs, then thought I'd create a thread to talk about it, that's all. It's up to each individual to do their own research regarding the criteria etc and learn exactly what's involved, and I'm sure it goes without saying that being legally killed will not be straightforward. I assumed that some people may not know that assisted suicide could be a possibility for them (I didn't know myself until yesterday) so I wanted to make a thread to share what I'd learned. That all said, I think it unfair of you to say that I was suggesting this was easy or straightforward.

 

[behindtheveil]

I apologise that my post came across to you like I was framing assisted suicide as "easy or straightforward". I sincerely did not intend it to come across that way to you or anybody else. I can't understand how it did come across that way because I literally said that it will take some effort and it won't be easy:

I don't know what's involved in the process of assisted suicide (I said in my post that I'd only just started looking into it myself) so I couldn't comment any further on that. When I became aware that it was possible with certain chronic and debilitating conditions, I looked and found a few companies and in Switzerland (as I read that the laws there were pretty relaxed compared to the rest of the world), briefly looked on their websites and at the costs, then thought I'd create a thread to talk about it, that's all. It's up to each individual to do their own research regarding the criteria etc and learn exactly what's involved, and I'm sure it goes without saying that being legally killed will not be straightforward. I assumed that some people may not know that assisted suicide could be a possibility for them (I didn't know myself until yesterday) so I wanted to make a thread to share what I'd learned. That all said, I think it unfair of you to say that I was suggesting this was easy or straightforward.

Oh no, Please I didn't mean it like that. Of course you didn't mean it as easy. I was just trying to caution you that their process is quite tricky, and I didn't want you to lose your money.
I just wanted to share my experience with these assisted death organizations.

This actually brings up the age old point - it shouldn't be this difficult to end our own life.
And how do these organizations have access to nembutol or similar drugs when they say the companies have stopped making them.

 

[Echo]

The notifying of families before the procedure were changed after this case ( see link) after the family complained, this was for pegasos. I don't know if athansios has the same policy.

https://www.itv.com/news/2024-05-15...t-47-to-die-in-secret-apologises-for-failures

 

[DeathSweetDeath]

Really? The family has to sign it off? Well that's the end of that for me too then if that's the case. I would have assumed that it's our decision and nobody else's. I'm single so don't have to worry about a spouse agreeing, but I'm pretty sure my parents (I'm in my 40's btw) would not sign off on it. Couldn't even imagine having that conversation with my parents, in fact yes I can, they'd be absolutely devastated even though they know I've had enough of all this suffering. Thanks a lot for that information, you've just saved me wasting my time and money applying.

Yes. Sorry. I'm 50, single, childless, no siblings, and my parents are dead. I know better than to ask my aunts, they'd never agree to it. These companies have had problems with families of clients in the past & they want to prevent lawsuits. I think they're transparent about it on their FAQs page, but people still apply without realizing.

The notifying of families before the procedure were changed after this case ( see link) after the family complained, this was for pegasos. I don't know if athansios has the same policy.

https://www.itv.com/news/2024-05-15...t-47-to-die-in-secret-apologises-for-failures

Of course they do, they need to protect their interests just like Pegasos. I was chatting with someone who applied to Athanasios, somehow unaware of their policy. They couldn't continue because their spouse was against it & they knew better than to ask. I was surprised they didn't know that before applying.

 

[gardenhouse]

I

Yes. Sorry. I'm 50, single, childless, no siblings, and my parents are dead. I know better than to ask my aunts, they'd never agree to it. These companies have had problems with families of clients in the past & they want to prevent lawsuits. I think they're transparent about it on their FAQs page, but people still apply without realizing.

Of course they do, they need to protect their interests just like Pegasos. I was chatting with someone who applied to Athanasios, somehow unaware of their policy. They couldn't continue because their spouse was against it & they knew better than to ask. I was surprised they didn't know that before applying.

'm sure athanasios doesn't require family member approval, not sure about spouse. If you have a spouse how can you hide it?

 

[DeathSweetDeath]

I

'm sure athanasios doesn't require family member approval, not sure about spouse. If you have a spouse how can you hide it?

Could you rephrase?
Athanasios requires spousal approval.
Not everyone lives with their spouse.
Not everyone shares their future plans with their spouse.

 

[gardenhouse]

Could you rephrase?
Athanasios requires spousal approval.
Not everyone lives with their spouse.
Not everyone shares their future plans with their spouse.

I'm sure athanasios doesn't require family members consent, but they may require spouse consent, good thing is they only need medical records but not doctors, why a doctor has a say in you decision making of life and death.

 

[TooMuchHasHappened]

Oh no, Please I didn't mean it like that. Of course you didn't mean it as easy. I was just trying to caution you that their process is quite tricky, and I didn't want you to lose your money.
I just wanted to share my experience with these assisted death organizations.

This actually brings up the age old point - it shouldn't be this difficult to end our own life.
And how do these organizations have access to nembutol or similar drugs when they say the companies have stopped making them.

Hey there. Thanks for clearing that up, I just took it how I read it sorry. No worries, it was just a misunderstanding that's all, and thanks for sharing your experience, I appreciate it.

I absolutely agree with you, it shouldn't be this difficult, especially for those of us with chronic conditions and/or valid reasons to want to CTB. I've had a few high risk/dangerous careers in my time where almost every single day I've had to be careful to "not die", and now I actually want "to die", it's hard work lol.

Nembutal is just a trade name for the Barbiturate Sodium Pentobarbital, it was developed by Abbott Laboratories in 1930. Abbott has stopped producing it, so technically you're right, Nembutal is no longer produced. However, Sodium Pentobarbital is still produced by a Danish company called Lundbeck, who may have not given it a specific trade name, hence why people still call it Nembutal. This happens a lot in medicine, the trade name of a product given to a medicine when it's first developed still gets used even after the original company who developed it discontinues production.

 

[gardenhouse]

Hey there. Thanks for clearing that up, I just took it how I read it sorry. No worries, it was just a misunderstanding that's all, and thanks for sharing your experience, I appreciate it.

I absolutely agree with you, it shouldn't be this difficult, especially for those of us with chronic conditions and/or valid reasons to want to CTB. I've had a few high risk/dangerous careers in my time where almost every single day I've had to be careful to "not die", and now I actually want "to die", it's hard work lol.

Nembutal is just a trade name for the Barbiturate Sodium Pentobarbital, it was developed by Abbott Laboratories in 1930. Abbott has stopped producing it, so technically you're right, Nembutal is no longer produced. However, Sodium Pentobarbital is still produced by a Danish company called Lundbeck, who may have not given it a specific trade name, hence why people still call it Nembutal. This happens a lot in medicine, the trade name of a product given to a medicine when it's first developed still gets used even after the original company who developed it discontinues production.

It's very rare to find now. It's strictly controlled unless you're a vet then you can order it, is there anyone here who's a vet haha? Animal has better choices than human these days.

 

[doomerguy88]

I'm sure athanasios doesn't require family members consent, but they may require spouse consent, good thing is they only need medical records but not doctors, why a doctor has a say in you decision making of life and death.

I'm not sure about Athanasios specifically but I was actually reading a reddit post recently about some of these places and warned that some of them are just scams and the only trusted one was Exit. They said they had an experience where the company moved the goal posts, telling them one thing in the begining about not needing signatures then telling the something different after they had already paid the sign up fees.

 

[TooMuchHasHappened]

Hey everyone. I've been making posts on another members thread regarding this topic (VAD) and thought I'd copy one of them into this thread, it's about these organisations requiring family consent. I'm going to contact these organisations myself because some people are saying that Athanasios (for instance) doesn't require family consent, but then some people are saying they do, so idk. I think it's best if I contact them myself to find out what's what. When I know I'll make another post here to update anybody who's interested.

Please see below my post from another thread:

It really frustrating that any of these organisations require family consent, especially for those of us who are single and have no dependents. Those of us with chronic illnesses, chronic pain, and/or any other debilitating conditions, who will never be able to have any sort of a "normal" and/or meaningful life ever again, should have the right to die if we choose to. I think it's unfair to have to get consent from our families (for numerous reasons) to be able to access assisted suicide, because it is us having to suffer. I realise that for many of us (myself included) our families also suffer; I am acutely aware of that, but still, our families should respect our decision if we're suffering a lot and have a poor quality of life (and in that case it should actually provide some relief to them knowing that we're not suffering anymore).

I'm not certain about this, but it seems that requiring family consent (by some or all of these organisations) is more than likely a consequence of legal action having been taken by some of the families whose loved ones took it upon themselves to end their lives at one of these organisations, or because of complaints to the authorities by the families. So they have probably been ordered (or at least pressurised) to take this action by the authorities, as I doubt they'd have chosen to implement family consent themselves as it will obviously be losing them a lot of money. I'm aware they've also been heavily criticised, but in my experience criticism alone would not be enough to force an organisation to change their policies (especially when there's large sums of money involved), but legal action or pressure from the authorities definitely is (however I could be wrong). Either way, requiring family consent means that people like us (and many others all over the world) have got to either suffer for the rest of our lives, or take matters into our own hands (which is why most of us are on this site). I'd be interested in hearing what those families would have preferred, their loved ones dying peacefully and with dignity in a supported medical facility, or from SN poisoning or a self inflicted gun shot wound (for example) whilst alone in a hotel room, I'm sure I know what their answer would be.

Due to these organisations now requiring family consent, we now have an unfortunate situation where other families will be even more traumatised by the deaths of their loved ones due to more traumatic suicide methods. I realise that the families who have took legal action and/or complained to the authorities will be very upset about the death of their loved ones at one of these organisations, I get that, but taking legal action and/or complaining to the authorities is not going to bring their loved ones back, what their actions have done is force these organisations to implement family consent, which (like I've already described) is going to cause more suffering for other people and other families.

If all these organisations require family consent (I hope there's a way around it somehow, or that Athanasios doesn't require it) then that is forcing more people to have to use more undesirable methods, myself included. I'm obviously biased because I'd rather not have to use SN in a hotel room (or something similar), but if all these companies require family consent then I'll have no choice, and it'll be because of other people complaining that I'll have to do that. If family consent was not required then I am certain that I'd choose to end my life with the help of one of these organisations.

Ultimately, no one wins here, those families who've took legal action (and/or complained to the authorities) have still lost a loved one, the families of those who've had to take more drastic measures now have to mourn an even more traumatic loss of their loved ones, those of us not willing to continue suffering for much longer have no other option but to use a less desirable method, and those who could not end their life another way (due to fear or whatever) now have to suffer for the rest of their lives. So, unless I'm missing something, there are no winners. I hope these organisations asked the families who took legal action against them (and/or complained to the authorities) what kind of a death they'd have preferred for their loved one, would they have preferred them to die alone in a hotel room from SN poisoning (for example, and show them what that looks like) or in a private clinic in a peaceful and dignified way (I'm sure we know the answer to that), or would they have preferred them to suffer for the rest of their life instead. I'd like to think that being frank with them like that would change their perspectives, and help them to realise that their loved ones actually took the best path possible for themselves, as well as highlighting the fact that the consequences of their actions will only cause more suffering to others.

When the reasons to die far outweigh the reasons to live, the person who is suffering should be able to decide if and when they want to die, period! It really pisses me off when I think of people like poor @fightclub17 and the situation she was in, so sad, and I'm sure many of us on here are in similar situations (or worse). I'm sure she would have preferred dying at one of these organisations, and many of us would too.

 

[2muchpain2]

The notifying of families before the procedure were changed after this case ( see link) after the family complained, this was for pegasos. I don't know if athansios has the same policy.

https://www.itv.com/news/2024-05-15...t-47-to-die-in-secret-apologises-for-failures

damn that sucks they changed the protocol because of this particular family. One woman recently went to Switzerland from Brazil (saw it goign around social media)., she has a chronic degenerative disease and was approved. she told her family she was going for treatment because she didn't want anyone to try to stop her. So maybe if you are an adult, unmarried, you can do it without family approval?

 

[TooMuchHasHappened]

damn that sucks they changed the protocol because of this particular family. One woman recently went to Switzerland from Brazil (saw it goign around social media)., she has a chronic degenerative disease and was approved. she told her family she was going for treatment because she didn't want anyone to try to stop her. So maybe if you are an adult, unmarried, you can do it without family approval?

Yes it does suck, especially because people who can't get family consent now face some unnecessary difficulties (I've spoken about this in my post above). I'm going to contact some of these organisations (in particular Athanasios) to find out if it's possible without family consent. I'm single with no dependents and in my 40's, so if it's possible for me without family consent (and I'm eligible of course) then this will be how I'll end my life. I'll post here and let everyone know if I find out that any of these organisations don't require family consent (or if there's a way around it somehow).

 

[elenaboo25]

I'm not sure about Athanasios specifically but I was actually reading a reddit post recently about some of these places and warned that some of them are just scams and the only trusted one was Exit. They said they had an experience where the company moved the goal posts, telling them one thing in the begining about not needing signatures then telling the something different after they had already paid the sign up fees.

Exit is only for people who are either Swiss citizens or have permanent residency in Switzerland. Exit not only provides assisted dying, they also help with advance directives. They do prefer that people become members at least 3 years before intending to die by assisted dying. If one is a member for less than 3 years, there is a fee for the assisted dying process. After 3 years, there is no fee for the assisted dying process, but if you need a psychiatric evaluation for example, you may be asked to pay something towards those costs. Burial-related things are not included in what Exit does, so even though it appears that Exit is "cheaper", in the end, if you include burial costs, the whole process costs about the same as with other organisations.

 

[unluckysadness]

I'll probably make a request to Athanasios. They ask CHF 100 just to study your case (I have that money) but if you're eligible, they ask CHF 9 500 so it's another thing... But I don't really want assisted suicide, I want to be alone when it will happens. If I ask them, it's only for my family, so they can see I have very goos reasons to do it. WIth all my disabilities, I think I'm eligible.

 

[elenaboo25]

I want to try to get assisted dying because I don't want to traumatise anyone by them having to find me. My main reason for wanting to ctb is PTSD, so I think it would be very selfish if I just passed on my trauma to other people.

 

[Echo]

A case you all might find interesting. A mum who's grieving her late son has been approved for assisted dying

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/38903180/mum-travels-swiss-clinic-end-life-losing-son/

 

[Talvikki]

Yes it does suck, especially because people who can't get family consent now face some unnecessary difficulties (I've spoken about this in my post above). I'm going to contact some of these organisations (in particular Athanasios) to find out if it's possible without family consent. I'm single with no dependents and in my 40's, so if it's possible for me without family consent (and I'm eligible of course) then this will be how I'll end my life. I'll post here and let everyone know if I find out that any of these organisations don't require family consent (or if there's a way around it somehow).

If you are not yet familiar with this website, it is worth a look:

Can you go on your own? - A user's guide to Swiss end-of-life centres

It is difficult to persuade one of the end-of-life centres that you should be accepted as a sole traveller. There are good reasons for their hesitation.

www.theswitzerlandalternative.com

The Switzerland Alternative is a current informational guide that outlines various Swiss organisations involved in assisted dying, detailing their procedures, eligibility criteria, and distinctions. It is a highly informative website.

 

[TooMuchHasHappened]

Hey guys. I put in my application to Athanasios today. Ideally, I wanted to email them beforehand to find out if they require family consent, but when I clicked on their email address it took me straight to their application page so I decided to just apply straight away. I paid 106CHF to apply and have sent them everything they need. I also ended up talking to my mum about it afterwards and told her what I'd done, she was very upset but she respects my wishes, so I'm pretty sure that if I need family consent then I'll be able to get it. It seems very surreal that I've actually applied to voluntarily end my life, I just hope I get accepted and don't have to suffer for much longer.

If you are not yet familiar with this website, it is worth a look:

Can you go on your own? - A user's guide to Swiss end-of-life centres

It is difficult to persuade one of the end-of-life centres that you should be accepted as a sole traveller. There are good reasons for their hesitation.

www.theswitzerlandalternative.com

The Switzerland Alternative is a current informational guide that outlines various Swiss organisations involved in assisted dying, detailing their procedures, eligibility criteria, and distinctions. It is a highly informative website.

Thank you for sharing this, very much appreciated

 

[Echo]

Hey guys. I put in my application to Athanasios today. Ideally, I wanted to email them beforehand to find out if they require family consent, but when I clicked on their email address it took me straight to their application page so I decided to just apply straight away. I paid 106CHF to apply and have sent them everything they need. I also ended up talking to my mum about it afterwards and told her what I'd done, she was very upset but she respects my wishes, so I'm pretty sure that if I need family consent then I'll be able to get it. It seems very surreal that I've actually applied to voluntarily end my life, I just hope I get accepted and don't have to suffer for much longer.

Thank you for sharing this, very much appreciated

I wish you all the luck. Will you keep us updated please if you able to?

 

[MapleS]

Too expencive.
I would qualify propably and it would be less painfull to my family but too expensive

 

[TooMuchHasHappened]

I wish you all the luck. Will you keep us updated please if you able to?

Thank you very much . Of course I will, as soon as I hear back from them I'll let you all know, and if I'm accepted I'll post my whole journey on here too, right through until the end.