Discussion Suicide, in most cases, is an irrational survival mechanism

[aneurysm]

After hours and hours and hours of scrolling through the threads of this website, I can say that there is one particular
thing that I hate about it. And it's the fact that a lot of people here try to justify suicide by saying stuff like : "life isn't a duty"
or "suicide is rational".

The truth is most of you people who say that are hypocrites. If you are going to kill yourself, it's your choice.
But stop pretending that it's a rational choice or that there is no other option or that life isn't a duty.

Some people could actually use that as an excuse to kill themselves because a lot of people (most people) are bad thinkers.
The amount a cognitive dissonance going on in the average human's mind is insane.

Suicide is only rational when your access to natural ressources (that are essential for prosperity) is significantly compromised
or limited in a reasonably irremediable way.

When your motive to commit suicide is socio-emotive, then it's not a rational suicide because it's based on your perception
and not actual/immediate facts.

Examples of situation in which suicide could be "rational".

Situation 1 : you wake up one morning to find that the number of humans on your planet largely surpasses the amount of natural
ressources essential to survival.
Situation 2 : you have a terminal illness (or some kind of severe disability) that makes life impossible and you are in physical pain
most of the time.


The thing is, most people here on this forum want to die not because of their circumstances, but because of their perceptions to these
circumstances. I read somewhere that the human's ego can be so insane that to protect itself, it will go as far as to destroy the body.
After reading your posts, I think it's safe to say that most of you people are trying to protect your ego more than anything else
(me included).

It's harmful to spread this kind of idea (that suicide makes sense) because it comfort some people in their desire to kill themselves.
Let's not forget that some people who survived their suicide attempts are grateful that they did. A lot of people who were suicidal immediately
regretted after jumping the golden gate bridge or taking poison.

My point is simply to keep it real, lying to yourself isn't helpful and it can harm others.
Even knowing all this I still want to die, but I will never pretend that this is a rational choice cuz it ain't.
It's completely irrational.

 

[Redrock]

In the first situation: people will not be suicidal, they will just start killing each other for food and other ressources
In the second situation: you may have mental pains that makes life impossible

 

[Allegory1]

I can see your opinion that suicide is generally not a 'rational choice'.
I think Redrock above makes a good argument and has a good input on your 2 situations where you suggest it could be viewed as rational.

I now invite you to look at in a philosophical / existential way. Granted, not many people would attempt suicide for this reason, however I'd be interested in hearing your (and anyone elses) opinion on it.
There are different existential views, some in which suicide is indeed rational and it can be argued that every human should in fact have to justify not attempting suicide. (This is more for general discussion sake by the way, rather than me actually arguing this point)

"Existentialist philosophers in particular turn the tables round by arguing that life has no meaning and therefore that there is no reason not to commit suicide. Rather, a person must justify not committing suicide by giving his life a meaning and fulfilling his unique potential through this meaning.
Nihilistic (from the Latin nihil, 'nothing') philosophers differ from existentialist philosophers in that they believe that a person cannot justify his life even by giving it an individual meaning. For nihilistic philosophers, nothing can have a meaning, not even suicide itself."

The above quote is from the below article. It also has some other interesting view points in it, have a look if you are interested.

Can It Be Right to Commit Suicide?

A sharp look into the ethics of suicide.

www.psychologytoday.com

You have also shared your view that suicide could potentially be looked at as rational for those with a terminal illness / have a sever disability and are in physical pain with it.
As Redrock touched on above, what is your opinion on those with mental health issues / pains? Do you think suicide is also 'rational' or justified in these instances?

 

[Psilo]

Suicide can't be justified I do agree, it's not a "natural" thing to think about, living beings are here to survive or for the sake of evolution.
It's just that suicide is an option you can consider, that's all, its a choice.

 

[RememberWhatUCameFor]

there is no objective reception of reality

 

[Allegory1]

Suicide can't be justified I do agree, it's not a "natural" thing to think about, living beings are here to survive or for the sake of evolution.
It's just that suicide is an option you can consider, that's all, its a choice.

I do not think we are here for the sake of evolution, rather we are in part here as a result of evolution.
I do not agree we are here to just survive. What purpose does that fill? My opinion is perhaps actually similar, but I would word it differently. I would say we are here to experience life.

As for it not being 'natural', I believe it is. The laws of nature and this reality allow it as a possibility. Why is it unnatural to want to escape pain and suffering if there seems to be no other option?

 

[Psilo]

I do not think we are here for the sake of evolution, rather we are in part here as a result of evolution.
I do not agree we are here to just survive. What purpose does that fill? My opinion is perhaps actually similar, but I would word it differently. I would say we are here to experience life.

As for it not being 'natural', I believe it is. The laws of nature and this reality allow it as a possibility. Why is it unnatural to want to escape pain and suffering if there seems to be no other option?

Living beings are programmed to survive, otherwise we would be long gone.

 

[Allegory1]

Living beings are programmed to survive, otherwise we would be long gone.

I agree. I was being nit-picky in the sense I would consider it a potentially natural thing to think about and consider in response to pain and suffering. I would also consider it a natural thing to think about, but more questioning it rather than seriously considering it, when thinking in an existential / philosophical way.

But I agree in that it's not something a person would usually consider.

 

[zadig777]

i have to agree on this

 

[ShadowOfTheDay]

Hello, Daisy. I liked your post, but I think you're equivocating a bit on the word "rational." A rational choice is not the same as a "rationally justifiable" choice. For instance, a heroin addict may make the "rational" decision to inject heroin into her veins, knowing that this will (temporarily) alleviate her withdrawal symptoms. That is a completly rational thing to do, though obviously it is not a sustainable way of dealing with addiction, and therefore it may be perceived as a bad decision.

In the same way, the motivating force to commit suicide, thus ending one's suffering is usually non-rational (to be distinguished from irrational). But I see no reason to think that the choice itself to end one's life can't be a rational one.

Whether or not it is "rationally justifiable" is another question entirely, and that should be evaluated on a "case by case" basis. In any case, I agree with you that only the individual has a right to make that choice.

 

[LivingToLong]

Thank you for your post @Daisy. I like to read the opinions of others. If I understand you correctly, your main point seems to me to be that people who claim they want to suicide and defend it as rational are lying to themselves, and so by extension to others.

Can I turn that around and ask if you are happy for people to suicide if they acknowledge that such an action is irrational?

 

[whatever1111]

After hours and hours and hours of scrolling through the threads of this website, I can say that there is one particular
thing that I hate about it. And it's the fact that a lot of people here try to justify suicide by saying stuff like : "life isn't a duty"
or "suicide is rational".

The truth is most of you people who say that are hypocrites. If you are going to kill yourself, it's your choice.
But stop pretending that it's a rational choice or that there is no other option or that life isn't a duty.

Some people could actually use that as an excuse to kill themselves because a lot of people (most people) are bad thinkers.
The amount a cognitive dissonance going on in the average human's mind is insane.

Suicide is only rational when your access to natural ressources (that are essential for prosperity) is significantly compromised
or limited in a reasonably irremediable way.

When your motive to commit suicide is socio-emotive, then it's not a rational suicide because it's based on your perception
and not actual/immediate facts.

Examples of situation in which suicide could be "rational".

Situation 1 : you wake up one morning to find that the number of humans on your planet largely surpasses the amount of natural
ressources essential to survival.
Situation 2 : you have a terminal illness (or some kind of severe disability) that makes life impossible and you are in physical pain
most of the time.


The thing is, most people here on this forum want to die not because of their circumstances, but because of their perceptions to these
circumstances. I read somewhere that the human's ego can be so insane that to protect itself, it will go as far as to destroy the body.
After reading your posts, I think it's safe to say that most of you people are trying to protect your ego more than anything else
(me included).

It's harmful to spread this kind of idea (that suicide makes sense) because it comfort some people in their desire to kill themselves.
Let's not forget that some people who survived their suicide attempts are grateful that they did. A lot of people who were suicidal immediately
regretted after jumping the golden gate bridge or taking poison.

My point is simply to keep it real, lying to yourself isn't helpful and it can harm others.
Even knowing all this I still want to die, but I will never pretend that this is a rational choice cuz it ain't.
It's completely irrational.

I think I see what you're doing here, you're positing some kind of a rational being who would want to die only in certain circumstances - but mental illness, or being mentally maladapted to the norms of society, to means of surviving, etc., means a person is inherently irrational in a way, (according to the prevailing norms that exert a huge pressure on everyone) . under this conditions, it can be 'rational' for someone maladapted to sometimes conclude he/she will never be able to adapt, (and therefore end the hypothetical suffering) , and so maybe the person wills the end. I don't understand the point about emphasizing physical over mental pain - yeah, of course mental illness is sometimes a bourgeois 'privilege' that a lot of people can't afford, but even that doesn't diminish the tragedy of those 'spoiled' cases. besides, that's maybe just communist/religious propaganda - both ideologies would sometimes claim life in itself is good, but something marginal/corrupt/evil is trying to ruin it. to be more specific, for a person whose ego crumbled, for example a deeply traumatized person, what would be rational? do you claim to know surviving as a bunch of flesh in mental anguish would always be more rational than something else, that is ctb? btw, internet is always 'killing' someone, so posting anything on a suicide forum is always problematic from a moralistic perspective

 

[Meretlein]

Why is it irrational not to want to live in degrading circumstances? I guess it depends on what counts as irrational but I can think of many cases in which it would be better to die.

 

[1964dodge]

After hours and hours and hours of scrolling through the threads of this website, I can say that there is one particular
thing that I hate about it. And it's the fact that a lot of people here try to justify suicide by saying stuff like : "life isn't a duty"
or "suicide is rational".

The truth is most of you people who say that are hypocrites. If you are going to kill yourself, it's your choice.
But stop pretending that it's a rational choice or that there is no other option or that life isn't a duty.

Some people could actually use that as an excuse to kill themselves because a lot of people (most people) are bad thinkers.
The amount a cognitive dissonance going on in the average human's mind is insane.

Suicide is only rational when your access to natural ressources (that are essential for prosperity) is significantly compromised
or limited in a reasonably irremediable way.

When your motive to commit suicide is socio-emotive, then it's not a rational suicide because it's based on your perception
and not actual/immediate facts.

Examples of situation in which suicide could be "rational".

Situation 1 : you wake up one morning to find that the number of humans on your planet largely surpasses the amount of natural
ressources essential to survival.
Situation 2 : you have a terminal illness (or some kind of severe disability) that makes life impossible and you are in physical pain
most of the time.


The thing is, most people here on this forum want to die not because of their circumstances, but because of their perceptions to these
circumstances. I read somewhere that the human's ego can be so insane that to protect itself, it will go as far as to destroy the body.
After reading your posts, I think it's safe to say that most of you people are trying to protect your ego more than anything else
(me included).

It's harmful to spread this kind of idea (that suicide makes sense) because it comfort some people in their desire to kill themselves.
Let's not forget that some people who survived their suicide attempts are grateful that they did. A lot of people who were suicidal immediately
regretted after jumping the golden gate bridge or taking poison.

My point is simply to keep it real, lying to yourself isn't helpful and it can harm others.
Even knowing all this I still want to die, but I will never pretend that this is a rational choice cuz it ain't.
It's completely irrational.

in a lot of cases people don't want to commit suicide they just want he pain to end, be it physical pain or emotional. I suffer chronic leg pain 5 to 6 with spikes to 10 and I have copd only 49% of lung capacity I have to take insulin plus other problems plus mental health issues. I have been fighting for years have been close for over a year is it ok for me to go?

 

[JJ-NOHOPE]

Sorry, but I have to respond to this post.

Who are you (op) to decide what is rational for another person to do?
Who are you (op) to say that life is a duty to any other person?

You are certainly entitled to make those decisions for yourself, but only an individual has the right to make those decisions for themselves.

Many people on this forum have physical or mental illnesses, and/or history of horrible abuse and suffering. Many people have bleak or hopeless futures.

The whole purpose of this forum is that each person has the right to choose whether they live or die. And their reasons for doing either should be respected.

I come here for support, not judgement.

 

[Hoid]

I... really don't know what to make of this post... I will now be availing myself of the back button and fleeing to safer waters

 

[ShadowOfTheDay]

I... really don't know what to make of this post... I will now be availing myself of the back button and fleeing to safer waters

That would probably be wise.

 

[Goldentwenty]

I believe that most people want euthenasia not suicide. Because often suicide is by means which is not dignified.
If people could die in dignity through euthenasia with a properly administered poison by a doctor, in bed, then that would be good.
I have a severe health condition which was caused by pharmaceutical drugs and it is causing me a great deal of pain, but bevause it isnt physical, its mental, i dont get access to euthenasia.
Its time that society woke up and started campaigning for world peace. And to ke that means a ppace where euthenasia is available to anyone who really wants it.
I do believe this post by daisy has a strong point though. I believe she raises a very good point.

 

[CoolGuy9]

Odd to see this opinion in here.

 

[LivingToLong]

The OP has gone (banned themselves) so I don't suspect we'll ever get their response. Shame, I was intrigued.

 

[CoolGuy9]

The OP has gone (banned themselves) so I don't suspect we'll ever get their response. Shame, I was intrigued.

That sucks. I was genuinely interested to see a debate going.

 

[Pulpit2018]

Personally i was not impressed with the argument she/he presented.

 

[Jean Améry]

How could suicide ever be considered a survival mechanism? Seems pretty much contradictory.

 

[FTL.Wanderer]

After hours and hours and hours of scrolling through the threads of this website, I can say that there is one particular
thing that I hate about it. And it's the fact that a lot of people here try to justify suicide by saying stuff like : "life isn't a duty"
or "suicide is rational".

The truth is most of you people who say that are hypocrites. If you are going to kill yourself, it's your choice.
But stop pretending that it's a rational choice or that there is no other option or that life isn't a duty.

Some people could actually use that as an excuse to kill themselves because a lot of people (most people) are bad thinkers.
The amount a cognitive dissonance going on in the average human's mind is insane.

Suicide is only rational when your access to natural ressources (that are essential for prosperity) is significantly compromised
or limited in a reasonably irremediable way.

When your motive to commit suicide is socio-emotive, then it's not a rational suicide because it's based on your perception
and not actual/immediate facts.

Examples of situation in which suicide could be "rational".

Situation 1 : you wake up one morning to find that the number of humans on your planet largely surpasses the amount of natural
ressources essential to survival.
Situation 2 : you have a terminal illness (or some kind of severe disability) that makes life impossible and you are in physical pain
most of the time.


The thing is, most people here on this forum want to die not because of their circumstances, but because of their perceptions to these
circumstances. I read somewhere that the human's ego can be so insane that to protect itself, it will go as far as to destroy the body.
After reading your posts, I think it's safe to say that most of you people are trying to protect your ego more than anything else
(me included).

It's harmful to spread this kind of idea (that suicide makes sense) because it comfort some people in their desire to kill themselves.
Let's not forget that some people who survived their suicide attempts are grateful that they did. A lot of people who were suicidal immediately
regretted after jumping the golden gate bridge or taking poison.

My point is simply to keep it real, lying to yourself isn't helpful and it can harm others.
Even knowing all this I still want to die, but I will never pretend that this is a rational choice cuz it ain't.
It's completely irrational.

"Rational" (Marriam Webster's Dictionary):
a: having reason or understanding
b: relating to, based on, or agreeable to reason : REASONABLE

"The truth is most of you people who say that are hypocrites. If you are going to kill yourself, it's your choice. But stop pretending that it's a rational choice or that there is no other option or that life isn't a duty." --> This is not a "truth" but an opinion. Yes, committing suicide is a choice. The choice is typically based on an individual's reasons which are largely evaluative. There is no hypocrisy in concluding life is not worth living or that the alternatives (ways of living) are not acceptable. "Duty" is merely a concept someone may subscribe to, not an objective fact. There is no objective duty to stay alive.

"Some people could actually use that as an excuse to kill themselves because a lot of people (most people) are bad thinkers.
The amount a cognitive dissonance going on in the average human's mind is insane." --> If it's possible for people to decide to kill themselves due to "bad reasoning," it's also as possible for people to decide not to kill themselves due to "bad reasoning." But there's no objective arbiter (that's been presented) of what constitutes good or bad reasoning. Someone doesn't need "an excuse" to do with their own property what they wish.

"When your motive to commit suicide is socio-emotive, then it's not a rational suicide because it's based on your perception
and not actual/immediate facts." --> This is an opinion (what is "rational"), not a fact. Nor do "socio-emotive" motives obviate countless other valid, state recognized choices or decisions--like getting married or making a career choice or entering into many legal contracts.

"Examples of situation in which suicide could be 'rational'." --> I agree with you that the examples you offer are among the reasons some people choose to commit suicide. They aren't the only kinds of sufficient justifications for suicide. While you're entitled to decide what for you constitutes sufficient justifications, you aren't entitled to make that decision for others. More, the reasoning you're offering--that you disagree with others' reasoning--is not only (and I mean this respectfully) irrelevant to most others, but it's also unconvincing.

"The thing is, most people here on this forum want to die not because of their circumstances, but because of their perceptions to [sic] these
circumstances." --> This is rhetoric, again, not a fact. Every conscious mind, as far as cognitive neuroscience tells us, perceives environmental stimuli (physical and psychosocial). Not even physics to date has complete models of spacetime or matter-energy. Human brains' far less so. Your reactions to others' evaluations of their lives are also based on your perceptions of what is rational and your assumptions ("After reading your posts, I think it's safe to say..."). You offer no objective reason others ought to displace their own reasoning with yours. That your perceptions and values are prevalent is by no means demonstration that they are correct.

"It's harmful to spread this kind of idea (that suicide makes sense) because it comfort some people in their desire to kill themselves." --> Censorship does not work. You can do the Google search yourself. Despite the pervasive public health service announcements against suicide and the well-entrenched cultural ideology of pro-life/survival, year over year per capita (inter)national suicide rates in the West (not just the US) and now, as China and India are divulging these statistics, in other parts of the world have been increasing. Neither religion nor philosophy nor government nor medicine nor secular humanism in its many guises has succeeded in providing reasons that convince more people who reason life isn't worth it for them to stay alive so as to stem the populational trends. I wager your argument will fare even less well.

Rather than upbraiding people for feeling what they do and reasoning as they do about lives others aren't responsible for and cannot "fix," our cultures might instead invest in building the kinds of communities rigorous international research over decades shows to support mental health. That might not eliminate all incidence of suicide, but it might address many of the reasons people report for feeling they have to kill themselves.

I disagree firmly with you but I respect your feelings on the matter. I advocate for people's freedom to make these critical personal decisions for ourselves. It should be irrelevant what others' assessments of an individual's reasons for personal life choices are. This is the cornerstone of personal freedom. Unless we are the property of the state or of others, we shouldn't need anyone else's permission or agreement to decide to leave life. Our lives. Our property. Our decision.

Enjoy your freedom to make the decision that works for you.

 

[mathquestions12345]

Huh. Haven't been lectured by an undergraduate lately. Got any more gems?

 

[NoOneKnows]

suicide = survival mechanism ?
lol doesnt it kinda negate itself ? Definition of survival mechanism : something you or your body does automatically, in order to survive (self preservation) in a dangerous or unpleasant situation