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spanishguy22

Enlightened
Apr 9, 2019
1,003
dont midn him man, put him on ignore, he must be bored or something. people before have posted pics just like yours i think it should be fine. Its just a tiny cut lol but seems you shocked him for life now!

this is scary, vision issues that dont heal from high methemoglobinemia (same SN mechanism):

"While methemoglobinemia is a possible complication of chronic dapsone therapy or of acute overdose, serious adverse manifestations related to methemoglobin formation remain rare. We present an unusual case with severe ischemic retinal injury. A 30-year-old African woman presented with a sudden decrease of visual acuity secondary to retinal ischemia. She was chronically treated with dapsone (50 mg/day) for a dermatologic disease and denied any drug overdose. However, the determination of serum dapsone level on admission revealed a largely supratherapeutic concentration (20,044 μg/ml compared with 1-3.5 ± 0.5 μg/ml for therapeutic levels). The methemoglobin level at admission was 32% (sulfhemoglobin 1.2%), with hemoglobin level, 7.4 g/dl, schistocytes count, 2-5%, lactate dehydrogenase level, 580 IU/l, and haptoglobin level, < 10 mg/dl. The patient had both alpha-thalassemia and sickle cell trait. She was treated with methylene blue, vitamin C, and exchange transfusion. There was no improvement in visual symptoms over time. In a patient with supratherapeutic serum levels of dapsone, the severity of visual injury was associated with dapsone-induced methemoglobinemia and hemolysis, and perhaps also with some hematologic predisposing factors. "
 
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Soul

Soul

gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha
Apr 12, 2019
4,705
For the record I saw nothing shocking or otherwise inappropriate about the photo and I'd be very much in favour of you two not quarrelling (which is billowing into inappropriacy). There's an ignore button for anyone who needs it.

@spanishguy22 , did you notice my update about coronary issues, ascorbic acid, spinach, carrots and beets? This SN stuff is weird!
 
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spanishguy22

Enlightened
Apr 9, 2019
1,003
Thanks for seeing what I mean. It's confusing.

Update: I've read a few articles and it seems @spanishguy22 's interpretation is right. This article for example says healthy people need treatment when their metHB levels are 30% but people with heart problems need treatment at lower levels than that.


A couple of the articles I looked at say ascorbic acid can reduce metHB, and that spinach, carrots and beets can contribute to it if you eat tons of them. So add those to the ginger on your menu, and steer clear of vitamin C.

Remember though there's a need to fast 8 hours, you could eat those before though, not sure if the impact would be strong but worth a try!
and the ginger would be an extract form
@drakewantstogo hey man i wonder in your attempt you went totally blind or partly? do you remmber if you were deaf as well?
 
Soul

Soul

gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha
Apr 12, 2019
4,705
Remember though there's a need to fast 8 hours, you could eat those before though, not sure if the impact would be strong but worth a try!
and the ginger would be an extract form

What I read indicated that one would need to eat really large amounts of those vegetables to cause any harm, but it couldn't hurt to include them in our diet for a week or so on our way to the bus stop.

Avoiding ascorbic acid seemed more significant, since it's given as an antidote to metHb.

Can you be more specific about the form of ginger you intend to try, and when you intend to ingest it, please & thank you?
 
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spanishguy22

Enlightened
Apr 9, 2019
1,003
What I read indicated that one would need to eat really large amounts of those vegetables to cause any harm, but it couldn't hurt to include them in our diet for a week or so on our way to the bus stop.

Avoiding ascorbic acid seemed more significant, since it's given as an antidote to metHb.

Can you be more specific about the form of ginger you intend to try, and when you intend to ingest it, please & thank you?
Just a ginger extract from amazon, powder caps, dosage 1g, the same dose that was given to patiens before surgery.
 
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Vegrau

Wizard
Nov 27, 2018
665
What I read indicated that one would need to eat really large amounts of those vegetables to cause any harm, but it couldn't hurt to include them in our diet for a week or so on our way to the bus stop.

Avoiding ascorbic acid seemed more significant, since it's given as an antidote to metHb.

Can you be more specific about the form of ginger you intend to try, and when you intend to ingest it, please & thank you?


If you really want to avoid ascorbic acid aka Vit C. Its quite impossible consider how many food contain it. Either you fast for weeks or we just stop eating anything containing vit c for a month. @spanishguy22
 

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spanishguy22

Enlightened
Apr 9, 2019
1,003
If you really want to avoid ascorbic acid aka Vit C. Its quite impossible consider how many food contain it. Either you fast for weeks or we just stop eating anything containing vit c for a month. @spanishguy22
vit c is used as an alternative to methylene blue as SN antidote actually
 
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Vegrau

Wizard
Nov 27, 2018
665
vit c is used as an alternative to methylene blue as SN antidote actually

Well sadly it stays in our body (blood) for weeks. I wonder if theres a way to rid of it? But will it be dangerous?
 
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spanishguy22

Enlightened
Apr 9, 2019
1,003
Well sadly it stays in our body (blood) for weeks.
oh wow i actually supplement with vitamins so thats so important to know pff damn
 
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Vegrau

Wizard
Nov 27, 2018
665
oh wow i actually supplement with vitamins so thats so important to know pff damn

Yeah and I just learnt about it too. I didnt knew Vitamin C last that long in our body, btw can you see the pic I post? If not I will post the article here.... Oooo... Ooooooohhhh now I get it. Hs.

Now I get why so many failed attempts happened. They keep saying they didnt lose conscious for hours. I think vit C in our blood have a lot things to do with it.

Here's the article.

Vitamin C in the Body
How long does vitamin C stay in the body?
Vitamin C can stay in the body for weeks. Levels of vitamin C in the blood are controlled by the kidneys through a process known as 'renal reabsorption,' which prevents vitamin C from being lost in the urine. Taking large doses of it can overwhelm this system, so the extra amount is lost in the urine in a matter of hours.
When someone who already has high levels in the blood takes some vitamin C, the increase in the body is only temporary – the majority is lost in the urine. When someone who doesn't have high blood levels of vitamin C takes it, the vitamin stays in the system longer.
 

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spanishguy22

Enlightened
Apr 9, 2019
1,003
Yeah and I just learnt about it too. I didnt knew Vitamin C last that long in our body, btw can you see the pic I post? If not I will post the article here.... Oooo... Ooooooohhhh now I get it. Hs.

Now I get why so many failed attempts happened. They keep saying they didnt lose conscious for hours. I think vit C in our blood have a lot things to do with it.

Here's the article.

Vitamin C in the Body
How long does vitamin C stay in the body?
Vitamin C can stay in the body for weeks. Levels of vitamin C in the blood are controlled by the kidneys through a process known as 'renal reabsorption,' which prevents vitamin C from being lost in the urine. Taking large doses of it can overwhelm this system, so the extra amount is lost in the urine in a matter of hours.
When someone who already has high levels in the blood takes some vitamin C, the increase in the body is only temporary – the majority is lost in the urine. When someone who doesn't have high blood levels of vitamin C takes it, the vitamin stays in the system longer.
It may very well be a strong factor in SN taking longer to act!
I wonder if @drakewantstogo ate any sort of fruits containing vitamin c beforehand. Might be a stretch maybe not.
I'll stop taking multivits they're useless anyway. Thanks a lot haha this is crucial @Soul
 
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Soul

Soul

gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha
Apr 12, 2019
4,705
I didn't realize vitamin C takes that long to be depleted. We don't need to give ourselves scurvy on the way to the bus, but it's probably worth being aware that we should be avoiding vit. C as far as is reasonable.
 
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Vegrau

Wizard
Nov 27, 2018
665
I didn't realize vitamin C takes that long to be depleted. We don't need to give ourselves scurvy on the way to the bus, but it's probably worth being aware that we should be avoiding vit. C as far as is reasonable.

I just did a quick research @Soul. You may or may not want to listen to what I said but this is purely educational.

Vitamin C has potentials to scavenge free radicals and protect cells from oxidative damage. Recycling of α-tocopherol by ascorbate has been demonstrated in cellular organelles and erythrocyte membranes.8-11 It also acts as a co-factor for NADP reductase required for glutathione metabolism.12 Furthermore, vitamin C can directly reduce methemoglobin and is proven to treat cyanosis effectively.13 Vitamin E is an antioxidant, protecting the RBC from hemolysis induced through lipid peroxidation and the oxidation of sulfhydryl groups.14,15Ascorbic acid and alpha-tocopherol in combination have been shown to have similar protecting effect on erythrocyte membranes exposed to an external oxidative stress.16,17Vitamin B1 (thiamine) is known for its antioxidant properties. Thiamine interacts with free radicals and is oxidized to thiochrome and thiamine disulfide. The antioxidant effect of thiamine is probably related to successive transfer of 2H+from the NH2 group of the pyrimidine ring and H+ from the thiazole ring.18 β-Carotene is a nontoxic precursor of vitamin A which scavenge free radicals to physically quench singlet oxygen reducing the extent of nuclear damage and inhibiting lipid peroxidation.19, 20
As far as we know there are no documented reports on the protective effect of vitamin C, E, A and B1 against oxidative stress in experimental models such as bovine erythrocytes. Therefore, the present study evaluates the antioxidative effects of particular vitamins on methemoglobinemia induced invitro by sodium nitrite.

Also heres the other important part I found.

The combination of vitamins E and C, significantly decreased methemoglobin at the concentration of 5 mmol L-1, but increased it at 20 mmol L-1


I know its a veterinary research but hey we get most of our data from mices or rats too. Also if I remembered correctly pigs and farm mammal's body cannot process Meth b as well as human body. So this is kind of worrying.
It may very well be a strong factor in SN taking longer to act!
I wonder if @drakewantstogo ate any sort of fruits containing vitamin c beforehand. Might be a stretch maybe not.
I'll stop taking multivits they're useless anyway. Thanks a lot haha this is crucial @Soul

It might even be Vit c from weeks ago now the important thing is to find out how much our body losses the Vit c perday and how much amount of vit c is needed to counter meth b. From what I read Vit c only works on low level of meth b. If the meth b too hight vit c will actually help making more meth b.
 
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Soul

Soul

gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha
Apr 12, 2019
4,705
@Vegrau, I'm quite interested to read what you have to say - sorry if I ever inadvertently made any other impression.

This is all confusing, though, and I need more time to ponder it. We obviously can't go without these vitamins, but it sounds like we should stop taking supplements before SN ... unless it means exactly the opposite. 8\
 
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Vegrau

Wizard
Nov 27, 2018
665
@Vegrau, I'm quite interested to read what you have to say - sorry if I ever inadvertently made any other impression.

This is all confusing, though, and I need more time to ponder it. We obviously can't go without these vitamins, but it sounds like we should stop taking supplements before SN ... unless it means exactly the opposite. 8\

Oh no its not your fault I am glad we are cool. I am a passionate and emotional person. So I understand if people want to hate or dislike me for that. I just worry you might have some lingering annoyance left, when you point out the inappropriateness of my earlier argument. Good thats not the case. I appreciate the things you said and talked about. Glad we cleared it up.

And yeah I agree with what you suggest. But the more confusing thing is that when face with higher level of meth b Vit c and e actually help the meth b to create more meth b. Human body are very strange lol
 
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Weems

Weems

Experienced
May 5, 2019
204
Anyone here manage to die using OTC anti-emetics? Dramamine, Pepto-Bismol? Or is SN just way too pukey for the soft stuff
 
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Soul

Soul

gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha
Apr 12, 2019
4,705
@Weems, I don't know. I wouldn't try pepto-bismal, since (if I'm not mistaken) it coats the stomach and would slow things down.

I haven't really looked at the idea of drinking DMSO with SN, so apologies if this is stupid but: Since DMSO's whole thing is transdermal delivery, why are people drinking it instead of rubbing it on their skin? If one wanted to avoid puking, or have a second route ready to "top up" after any vomiting, then wouldn't trans-dermal application make sense?

Meanwhile, @spanishguy22 and @Vegrau , the more I ponder this vitamin paradox the more it seems like vitamin C's condradictory actions probably even themselves out in the end, but might well slow down the beginning of the metHb process. If that makes any sense?

Sorry, I'm still confused. 8]
 
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spanishguy22

Enlightened
Apr 9, 2019
1,003
@Weems, I don't know. I wouldn't try pepto-bismal, since (if I'm not mistaken) it coats the stomach and would slow things down.

I haven't really looked at the idea of drinking DMSO with SN, so apologies if this is stupid but: Since DMSO's whole thing is transdermal delivery, why are people drinking it instead of rubbing it on their skin? If one wanted to avoid puking, or have a second route ready to "top up" after any vomiting, then wouldn't trans-dermal application make sense?

Meanwhile, @spanishguy22 and @Vegrau , the more I ponder this vitamin paradox the more it seems like vitamin C probably evens itself out in terms of absorption, but might well slow down the beginning of the process. If that makes any sense?

Sorry, I'm still confused. 8]
Don't complicate it, just avoid multivitamin and fruits two weeks prior to SN and that's it
 
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Vegrau

Wizard
Nov 27, 2018
665
[
USER=6980]@spanishguy22[/USER] and @Vegrau , the more I ponder this vitamin paradox the more it seems like vitamin C's condradictory actions probably even themselves out in the end, but might well slow down the beginning of the metHb process. If that makes any sense?

Sorry, I'm still confused. 8]

Yes thats the same conclusion I came to as well. But the biggest problems I have due to the lack of information regarding the matter is how vit c affecting Meth b formation. Whats the ratio. Thats the most important part we need to know, maximum capacity of vit c our body can hold and at what ratio of vit c and meth b that vit c started to help the creation of meth b. And the combination or vit c and e its effectiveness and ratio as well. Well just to be on the safe side I will stay away from vit c food at least a week. I dont want it to slow down the formation and drag SN effect on for too long.
Don't complicate it, just avoid multivitamin and fruits two weeks prior to SN and that's it

Also leafy and dark green vegetables. They contain a large amount of vit c too. Its troublesome because its everywhere. I... love my vegetables.
 
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spanishguy22

Enlightened
Apr 9, 2019
1,003
@Vegrau I wonder what's your take on the blindness SN caused last person who attempted. It's reversible it seems but what if its not sometimes? Worries me.
I guess vision loss was due to low blood pressure? But he didn't go unconscious. Seems like he was at a middle ground.
 
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Vegrau

Wizard
Nov 27, 2018
665
@Vegrau I wonder what's your take on the blindness SN caused last person who attempted. It's reversible it seems but what if its not sometimes? Worries me.
I guess vision loss was due to low blood pressure? But he didn't go unconscious. Seems like he was at a middle ground.

I did a look around but what I found is that meth b doesnt affect blood vessel but it did affect blood pressure so it could be what causing the blindness. But the lady in the link you provide was a patient that had both alpha-thalassemia and sickle cell trait. Which is a set of very particular traits to have so I dont think that kind of blindness to be very common. But still I think the main cause for temporary blindness to be cause by the blood pressure. Or some underlying damage on the spinal cord or its nerves. Or it could be underlying heart or blood vessels problems. Depend on age diet and stuff like that which make it harder to pinpoint.
 
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spanishguy22

Enlightened
Apr 9, 2019
1,003
I did a look around but what I found is that meth b doesnt affect blood vessel but it did affect blood pressure so it could be what causing the blindness. But the lady in the link you provide was a patient that had both alpha-thalassemia and sickle cell trait. Which is a set of very particular traits to have so I dont think that kind of blindness to be very common. But still I think the main cause for temporary blindness to be cause by the blood pressure. Or some underlying damage on the spinal cord or its nerves. Or it could be underlying heart or blood vessels problems. Depend on age diet and stuff like that which make it harder to pinpoint.
Oh I totally missed that about the girl, I coudln't understand all those medical terms hah. Kinda relieving.
Still yea its kinda of a mystery id like reassure myself ill be fine if i fail before attempting. @drakewantstogo lost all vision for a while, but he wasnt even unconscious, i wonder why
 
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Vegrau

Wizard
Nov 27, 2018
665
Oh I totally missed that about the girl, I coudln't understand all those medical terms hah. Kinda relieving.
Still yea its kinda of a mystery id like reassure myself ill be fine if i fail before attempting. @drakewantstogo lost all vision for a while, but he wasnt even unconscious, i wonder why

Perhaps he have underlying problems with his blood vessels or even his spines and nerves. It could be too thin and when blood pressure drop the eyes just went off and his blood pressure stay low until they cleared out his meth b? Unless we can get our hands on the doctor diagnosis dont think we can speculate much.
 
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spanishguy22

Enlightened
Apr 9, 2019
1,003
Perhaps he have underlying problems with his blood vessels or even his spines and nerves. It could be too thin and when blood pressure drop the eyes just went off and his blood pressure stay low until they cleared out his meth b? Unless we can get our hands on the doctor diagnosis dont think we can speculate much.
Could this be it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transient_ischemic_attack

A transient ischemic attack (TIA) is a brief episode of neurological dysfunction caused by loss of blood flow (ischemia) in the brain, spinal cord, or retina, without tissue death (infarction).[1] TIAs have the same underlying mechanism as ischemic strokes. Both are caused by a disruption in blood flow to the brain, or cerebral blood flow (CBF). The definition of TIA was classically based on duration of neurological symptoms. The current widely-accepted definition is called "tissue-based" because it is based on imaging, not time. The American Heart Association and the American Stroke Association (AHA/ASA) now define TIA as a brief episode of neurological dysfunction with a vascular cause, with clinical symptoms typically lasting less than one hour, and without evidence of infarction on imaging.[1]

TIA causes the same symptoms associated with stroke, such as weakness or numbness on one side of the body. Numbness or weakness generally occur on the opposite side of the body from the affected hemisphere of the brain. A TIA may cause sudden dimming or loss of vision, difficulty speaking or understanding language, slurred speech, and confusion.

TIA and ischemic stroke share a common cause. Both result from a disruption in blood flow to the central nervous system. In ischemic stroke, symptoms generally persist beyond 7 days. In TIA, symptoms typically resolve within 1 hour.
 
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Vegrau

Wizard
Nov 27, 2018
665
Could this be it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transient_ischemic_attack

A transient ischemic attack (TIA) is a brief episode of neurological dysfunction caused by loss of blood flow (ischemia) in the brain, spinal cord, or retina, without tissue death (infarction).[1] TIAs have the same underlying mechanism as ischemic strokes. Both are caused by a disruption in blood flow to the brain, or cerebral blood flow (CBF). The definition of TIA was classically based on duration of neurological symptoms. The current widely-accepted definition is called "tissue-based" because it is based on imaging, not time. The American Heart Association and the American Stroke Association (AHA/ASA) now define TIA as a brief episode of neurological dysfunction with a vascular cause, with clinical symptoms typically lasting less than one hour, and without evidence of infarction on imaging.[1]

TIA causes the same symptoms associated with stroke, such as weakness or numbness on one side of the body. Numbness or weakness generally occur on the opposite side of the body from the affected hemisphere of the brain. A TIA may cause sudden dimming or loss of vision, difficulty speaking or understanding language, slurred speech, and confusion.

TIA and ischemic stroke share a common cause. Both result from a disruption in blood flow to the central nervous system. In ischemic stroke, symptoms generally persist beyond 7 days. In TIA, symptoms typically resolve within 1 hour.

Yes this could be it. I couldnt find the name for it but yes this is the closest possibility. Without tissue death is the keyword here.
 
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spanishguy22

Enlightened
Apr 9, 2019
1,003
Yes this could be it. I couldnt find the name for it but yes this is the closest possibility. Without tissue death is the keyword here.
Actually ditch that, i found the real reason im pretty sure.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greyout
A greyout (US English grayout) is a transient loss of vision characterized by a perceived dimming of light and color, sometimes accompanied by a loss of peripheral vision.[1] It is a precursor to fainting or a blackout and is caused by hypoxia (low brain oxygen level), often due to a loss of blood pressure.

Greyouts have a variety of possible causes:

Usually recovery is rapid and a greyout can be readily reversed by lying down. This way, the cardiovascular system does not need to work against gravity for blood to reach the brain.
 
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D

Done182

Student
Jan 30, 2019
169
So permanent loss of sight is not an issue if SN fails? How necessary is it to avoid vitamin C before attempting? Like really important? If so why? Thank you.
 
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spanishguy22

Enlightened
Apr 9, 2019
1,003
So permanent loss of sight is not an issue if SN fails? How necessary is it to avoid vitamin C before attempting? Like really important? If so why? Thank you.
There's brain hypoxia with SN which is what causes death and typically also risks brain damage or vision loss but unlike CO method for example it seems this type of hypoxia and it's effects are reversible most of the time. Maybe because the hypoxia is gradual and the brain cells dont die until the very last moment, unlike CO where cells die very quick.
There's no report of any kind of SN brain damage in this forum or internet so it's very calming but I'd also like to know a expert opinion.
 
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Soul

Soul

gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha
Apr 12, 2019
4,705
@Done182, we've just noticed in a few articles that vitamin C is sometimes given as an antidote to SN. So it seems like it would be better not to have high levels of C in our systems when we take SN. But I have no idea how important it might be; for now it's just a few of us theorizing about it.
 
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