SN in Australia -YES YOU CAN GET IT IN 2024

[DOHARDTHINGS24]

Thanks OP and to all those confirming successful deliveries - this is highly reassuring!
Sifting through multiple threads I was able to make a DMC order - a great relief when it arrives.
Aussie customs are tight@rse, but I agree with y'all that it shouldn't be too big of a problem with SN.

You're welcome!
Please report back with success if you can, it's appreciated.
Mine sat in customs so long I pretty much imploded with anxiety, but it was all fine.

Any doc can prescribe diazepam to you for the right reasons. A few reasons people use it: to terminate an intense panic attack, anxiolysis onboard a flight for those with crippling fear of flying, alcohol withdrawal symptoms.
If you'd rather get it from the comfort of your bedroom, check out the Aus DNM forum for reputable vendors.

I think you've asked me this before... I think maybe you need to figure out if you want to get the meds legitimately & how many you want etc. Walk-in docs & internet / phone docs normally have a disclaimer saying they won't prescribe. If you see any doctor for psych reasons, they're more likely to prescribe. If you're in Aus, you can get a Medicare mental health care plan for free to see psych doc for free - that will make it look like you're serious. Might take time though & multiple, but free, appointments. If you have a regular doctor, they'll most likely prescribe for the suggestions above. It's not likely they'll give you large quantities or ongoing access. So it's probs better to have a reason sorted out in advance that is semi-dramatic but has an end date. Like, 2 upcomimg flights & claustrophobia. Or death in a family. Or 2 upcoming flights for a death in the family.
Or you can go the completely illegitimate route & get from people you know, buy on the street or through online pharmacies - I have never done any of that. Best of luck.

 

[ningen_shikkaku]

How did you get diazepam, could you PM me?

It's been prescribed to me for a while now, as part of my treatment and diagnoses. I always have a few tablets as a result, so I wouldn't know how to get it through other means. Sorry I can't be of much help!

Well done!!!
That's a big fucking deal.
I won't encourage you or anyone to CTB, but I definitely support your right to choose, your right to access.
And I'm so pleased you reported back here, to this thread.
I'm still catching my bus eventually, am devastated to have missed it so far, ashamed of myself for failing to launch. But I am ridiculously proud of myself for starting this thread & so grateful to every single person that contributes to the greater good.
This conversation is important.
Experience & information, prevailing over some of the shit out there, the stuff I can't even read anymore... It's so easy to be consumed by your own life, your own death, but taking a few moments to help an entire continent is a selfless & empathetic generosity. So appreciated.
Best of luck with the decisions ahead of you.

Thank you! It was honestly this thread that eased my worries about getting SN in the first place, so thank YOU! I see you quite a bit around here, and I'm sure every Aussie is thankful for all the resources and things you've put together.

Thanks OP and to all those confirming successful deliveries - this is highly reassuring!
Sifting through multiple threads I was able to make a DMC order - a great relief when it arrives.
Aussie customs are tight@rse, but I agree with y'all that it shouldn't be too big of a problem with SN.


Any doc can prescribe diazepam to you for the right reasons. A few reasons people use it: to terminate an intense panic attack, anxiolysis onboard a flight for those with crippling fear of flying, alcohol withdrawal symptoms.
If you'd rather get it from the comfort of your bedroom, check out the Aus DNM forum for reputable vendors.

Seems like this is the way to go if not through a doctor! I wouldn't know anything about this though. Summer is absolutely right, diaze is prescribed for a lot of reasons. My doctors prescribe me it as part of regular (PRN) treatment for anxiety attacks, but also other things related to my other diagnoses. I'd have no clue how 'easy' or 'hard' it may be to dupe doctors into giving you diaze. I know it isn't the easiest here in AUS, since they do care about the risks long-term benzo use could have (which is valid, imo). And it isn't given to me by a GP, it's given through a psychiatrist who puts me on staged supply for everything I have... which makes it a pain to stock up on meds or anything (and the stock that I did have, they seized the other week, RIP since I was initially planning to OD-- though they left my diaze and other medications alone).

 

[DOHARDTHINGS24]

Thank you! It was honestly this thread that eased my worries about getting SN in the first place, so thank YOU! I see you quite a bit around here, and I'm sure every Aussie is thankful for all the resources and things you've put together.

This has made my day .
Thank you.
I've pulled back here a lot - my fave person's bus came before mine & broke my heart TBH. Combined with so much shame over missing my deadline, the inability thus far to set another one, the fact that there's still too many bullshit posts cleverly disguised as legitimate, the fact my posts are too rambly & out of control & the shame I feel about that too. Can you spot the cycle here? FFS
I feel sick to the stomach at the thought of helping or encouraging anyone to CTB. I never give sources.
But the fear & anxiety I went through, I wouldn't wish that on anyone either. It's about the right to choose, the right to access, the right to relevant & accurate information.
Life is hard.
It turns out dying is hard.
No one needs anything made harder for them.
Thanks again.
It genuinely means a great deal to me. Today was particularly shit, so it was so lovely to come home to this.

 

[DOHARDTHINGS24]

Bumping for no real reason, just trying to keep success at the top of the Aussie pile

 

[butimstillsoblue]

This is my experience, not encouragement, make your own decisions.

Ordered same as OP 1/1/25, paid WU.
Sent to AP Parcel Locker, as I do with all parcels.
Tracking appeared on AP 3/1
4/1 Awaiting international departure Ukr
16/1 Arrived Syd
17/1 Arrived Mel
20/1 Delivered

No problems encountered.

 

[DOHARDTHINGS24]

This is my experience, not encouragement, make your own decisions.

Ordered same as OP 1/1/25, paid WU.
Sent to AP Parcel Locker, as I do with all parcels.
Tracking appeared on AP 3/1
4/1 Awaiting international departure Ukr
16/1 Arrived Syd
17/1 Arrived Mel
20/1 Delivered

No problems encountered.

Thanks so much!!!!
I never encourage or discourage but I think information & access are important & I thoroughly appreciate your contribution to this thread. Thanks again. Best of luck to you.

 

[ShesPunishedForever]

would any aussie be willing to send me a pm i could rly use someone to talk to

 

[DOHARDTHINGS24]

would any aussie be willing to send me a pm i could rly use someone to talk to

Have just seen this, sorry. I am extremely time poor in terms of privacy & also actual capacity at the mo. Just not good. But if no one reached out to you & you're still stuck, message me & I'll try my best. I'm sorry I can't offer more.

 

[summersolstice101]

just want to mention another confirmed delivery to AU
- arrives within 3 weeks to metro areas
No issues

Thanks again OP!

 

[Pluto]

 

[DOHARDTHINGS24]

just want to mention another confirmed delivery to AU
- arrives within 3 weeks to metro areas
No issues

Thanks again OP!

Thanks so much for contributing! It's so appreciated.
Best of luck with what the future does / does not hold in store for you (can you tell I've run out of ways to skirt the "do not encourage / do not discourage" line? )

View attachment 159203

I'd like to say this adds nothing to the convo, but it'd be a lie .
First thing I've laughed at after a shitty day at work, so it's very much appreciated too.

 

[sp4rk]

I hope im not coming off as rude but reading everyone's experience here with getting SN in Aus, can I ask anyone if they can pm where they got theirs? Im reading DMC but I deadass don't know what that is Understandable if no one wants to give it cus of past experiences tho xD no hard feelings :>

 

[DOHARDTHINGS24]

I hope im not coming off as rude but reading everyone's experience here with getting SN in Aus, can I ask anyone if they can pm where they got theirs? Im reading DMC but I deadass don't know what that is Understandable if no one wants to give it cus of past experiences tho xD no hard feelings :>

I'm sorry that I don't share sources, but I don't share sources. Some people here are happy to. There are also some threads on here that give out a lot of clues on how to find.
Best of luck.

 

[wayout90]

Thank you OP for starting this thread. Have everything I need except SN. Trying to work up the nerve to order from DMC. Still so worried about customs though :-/

 

[Fate]

Thank you OP for starting this thread. Have everything I need except SN. Trying to work up the nerve to order from DMC. Still so worried about customs though :-/

Don't worry about customs. It is technically legal. SN itself is a restricted substance (Not a banned or controlled one). You need a "Business" to purchase SN, but it is legal to own, regardless if you have a business or not. They may do a welfare check, but they cannot do much since it is legal to own. (You just tell them you're fine and they'll move along). I'm speaking for Australia here, not all countries.

 

[DOHARDTHINGS24]

Thank you OP for starting this thread. Have everything I need except SN. Trying to work up the nerve to order from DMC. Still so worried about customs though :-/

You're welcome! It was a very anxious wait for me, where every minute felt like days & I was out of my mind terrified. I didn't know of any Aussie success stories at the time, which is why I created the thread, to help give others peace of mind. I am yet to hear of anyone in Aus having a customs issue at all (one clearly bogus post excepted, ffs), & particularly not with DMC, due to the discretion of packaging. Best of luck with whatever comes next for you.

 

[wayout90]

Don't worry about customs. It is technically legal. SN itself is a restricted substance (Not a banned or controlled one). You need a "Business" to purchase SN, but it is legal to own, regardless if you have a business or not. They may do a welfare check, but they cannot do much since it is legal to own. (You just tell them you're fine and they'll move along). I'm speaking for Australia here, not all countries.

Thanks for your response. Is it ok to ask what info you're basing your knowledge that it's legal on? I've been trying to research the legality of it and everything I'm finding says that for schedule 7 poisons (which SN is in Oz) it's a criminal offense to posses it over certain purities without a license. Also the border force website says any TGA listed substances are illegal to import and SN is listed in the TGA. I don't really give a shit about welfare checks or the mental health police - I'm more worried about the actual police and getting charged for a criminal offense. Hope that's an ok question. I'd just feel way more reassured if I could find something concrete that shows it's not a criminal offense to possess or import it for personal use

I'm probably overthinking it and have seen all the success stories, I'm just also super unlucky so if anyone's gonna get busted for something it's usually me

 

[Fate]

Thanks for your response. Is it ok to ask what info you're basing your knowledge that it's legal on? I've been trying to research the legality of it and everything I'm finding says that for schedule 7 poisons (which SN is in Oz) it's a criminal offense to posses it over certain purities without a license. Also the border force website says any TGA listed substances are illegal to import and SN is listed in the TGA. I don't really give a shit about welfare checks or the mental health police - I'm more worried about the actual police and getting charged for a criminal offense. Hope that's an ok question. I'd just feel way more reassured if I could find something concrete that shows it's not a criminal offense to possess or import it for personal use

I'm probably overthinking it and have seen all the success stories, I'm just also super unlucky so if anyone's gonna get busted for something it's usually me

It's one of those grey areas, there's no definite answer; it seems the restrictions surrounding s7 poisons like SN falls back on the seller, and not the buyer (Since they're a restricted poison and not a banned one). There is a few chemicals in the s7 category that does make it offense to purchase and own them, and SN isnt in that category.

Ill share a SS of Exit International stating its legal to own in both Aus and NZ (They wouldn't state that without first doing their research) and a copy of the article showing what s7 poisons come with an offense (SN isnt one otherwise they would've stated that its an offence to acquire which they didnt) . I've sent a message to Exit International to get a definite answer from them about the legality of purchasing SN in Australia. Once I hear back from them, I'll forward it to you.


Highly dangerous Schedule 7 poisons
• arsenic
• cyanides
• fluoroacetamide
• fluoroacetic acid
• hydrocyanic acid
• strychnine
• thallium
The acquisition or use of any of the above poisons without an authority issued by the Ministry of Health is an offence, as is their supply, unless the person being supplied holds an authority to use the poison and the supplier also holds an authority to supply to the end-user of any of the above poisons.

Applications for an authority to supply, obtain or use any of the above highly dangerous Schedule 7 poisons are available on the License and authorisations web page.
Authorities issued by the Ministry of Health to supply, acquire or use highly dangerous Schedule 7 poisons are issued only for legitimate industrial and commercial purposes (subject to certain exemptions listed below) and applicants may be required to provide sufficient information to the Ministry as is necessary to determine the issuance of an authority.
Authorities are issued subject to a number of mandatory conditions attaching to the authorities, including purpose of use, storage and disposal requirements, and are valid only for a specific period of time.

Other Schedule 7 poisons
These comprise all Schedule 7 poisons other than those listed above, for example; hydrofluoric acid above 1% hydrogen fluoride and potassium nitrite or sodium nitrite above 40%.
The acquisition, use or supply of any of these poisons requires an authority issued by the Ministry of Health when the poison is for use for domestic purposes only.
If the Schedule 7 poison (other than a highly dangerous Schedule 7 poison) is for use for non-domestic purposes, eg industrial, commercial, trade or agvet purposes, no authority is required in NSW.

 

[wayout90]

It's one of those grey areas, there's no definite answer; it seems the restrictions surrounding s7 poisons like SN falls back on the seller, and not the buyer (Since they're a restricted poison and not a banned one). There is a few chemicals in the s7 category that does make it offense to purchase and own them, and SN isnt in that category.

Ill share a SS of Exit International stating its legal to own in both Aus and NZ (They wouldn't state that without first doing their research) and a copy of the article showing what s7 poisons come with an offense (SN isnt one otherwise they would've stated that its an offence to acquire which they didnt) . I've sent a message to Exit International to get a definite answer from them about the legality of purchasing SN in Australia. Once I hear back from them, I'll forward it to you.


Highly dangerous Schedule 7 poisons
• arsenic
• cyanides
• fluoroacetamide
• fluoroacetic acid
• hydrocyanic acid
• strychnine
• thallium
The acquisition or use of any of the above poisons without an authority issued by the Ministry of Health is an offence, as is their supply, unless the person being supplied holds an authority to use the poison and the supplier also holds an authority to supply to the end-user of any of the above poisons.

Applications for an authority to supply, obtain or use any of the above highly dangerous Schedule 7 poisons are available on the License and authorisations web page.
Authorities issued by the Ministry of Health to supply, acquire or use highly dangerous Schedule 7 poisons are issued only for legitimate industrial and commercial purposes (subject to certain exemptions listed below) and applicants may be required to provide sufficient information to the Ministry as is necessary to determine the issuance of an authority.
Authorities are issued subject to a number of mandatory conditions attaching to the authorities, including purpose of use, storage and disposal requirements, and are valid only for a specific period of time.

Other Schedule 7 poisons
These comprise all Schedule 7 poisons other than those listed above, for example; hydrofluoric acid above 1% hydrogen fluoride and potassium nitrite or sodium nitrite above 40%.
The acquisition, use or supply of any of these poisons requires an authority issued by the Ministry of Health when the poison is for use for domestic purposes only.
If the Schedule 7 poison (other than a highly dangerous Schedule 7 poison) is for use for non-domestic purposes, eg industrial, commercial, trade or agvet purposes, no authority is required in NSW.

Thank you! This is super helpful. And if you could, please let me know what Exit International says when they respond to your message. I'm sure their research and info would be pretty thorough and accurate.

 

[areyousafe??]

Thank you OP for starting this thread. Have everything I need except SN. Trying to work up the nerve to order from DMC. Still so worried about customs though :-/

You should be fine with customs if it's from dmc.

 

[DOHARDTHINGS24]

I'm hesitant to post this because it's not first hand, but also don't want to deny another success story. A long-term member has had very recent success they want to share, but don't want to be inundated with source requests. Which is fair, because a lotta people don't respect that boundary. I get the desparation, I do.
So, I'll post but maybe delete.
They ordered from Ukraine 16th January. Received in large town in Australia to home address today, 11th Feb 2025.
Paid using Wise. Tracked through Aftership over there, Aus Post over here.
Interior packaging sounds slightly different than mine (but plausible, like a minor upgrade).
Exterior packaging sounds slightly different to mine but they purchased a larger amount, so plausible.
The exterior label & description were identical to mine.
I'm torn between posting success versus posting hearsay. I fully believe this to be a true story of events but am also willing to delete this if it doesn't sit right with anyone.
Please let me know if anyone wants removed. Or if you find that confrontational or uncomfortable, please feel free to report to mods. I'm defs trying to do the right thing, just unsure of what the right thing is.

 

[wayout90]

I'm hesitant to post this because it's not first hand, but also don't want to deny another success story. A long-term member has had very recent success they want to share, but don't want to be inundated with source requests. Which is fair, because a lotta people don't respect that boundary. I get the desparation, I do.
So, I'll post but maybe delete.
They ordered from Ukraine 16th January. Received in large town in Australia to home address today, 11th Feb 2025.
Paid using Wise. Tracked through Aftership over there, Aus Post over here.
Interior packaging sounds slightly different than mine (but plausible, like a minor upgrade).
Exterior packaging sounds slightly different to mine but they purchased a larger amount, so plausible.
The exterior label & description were identical to mine.
I'm torn between posting success versus posting hearsay. I fully believe this to be a true story of events but am also willing to delete this if it doesn't sit right with anyone.
Please let me know if anyone wants removed. Or if you find that confrontational or uncomfortable, please feel free to report to mods. I'm defs trying to do the right thing, just unsure of what the right thing is.

I appreciate the post of a success story even if it's here say. Not sure exactly what the rules are for posting but it sits fine with me

 

[DOHARDTHINGS24]

I appreciate the post of a success story even if it's here say. Not sure exactly what the rules are for posting but it sits fine with me

Thanks. I really do believe it to be true & I have insane trust issues, so that kinda means something, I guess. Thanks for weighing in, I'll just leave it as is for now. It's my thread, I believe it, but I'll change if it becomes an issue for anyone. Respect first.

 

[wayout90]

It's one of those grey areas, there's no definite answer; it seems the restrictions surrounding s7 poisons like SN falls back on the seller, and not the buyer (Since they're a restricted poison and not a banned one). There is a few chemicals in the s7 category that does make it offense to purchase and own them, and SN isnt in that category.

Ill share a SS of Exit International stating its legal to own in both Aus and NZ (They wouldn't state that without first doing their research) and a copy of the article showing what s7 poisons come with an offense (SN isnt one otherwise they would've stated that its an offence to acquire which they didnt) . I've sent a message to Exit International to get a definite answer from them about the legality of purchasing SN in Australia. Once I hear back from them, I'll forward it to you.


Highly dangerous Schedule 7 poisons
• arsenic
• cyanides
• fluoroacetamide
• fluoroacetic acid
• hydrocyanic acid
• strychnine
• thallium
The acquisition or use of any of the above poisons without an authority issued by the Ministry of Health is an offence, as is their supply, unless the person being supplied holds an authority to use the poison and the supplier also holds an authority to supply to the end-user of any of the above poisons.

Applications for an authority to supply, obtain or use any of the above highly dangerous Schedule 7 poisons are available on the License and authorisations web page.
Authorities issued by the Ministry of Health to supply, acquire or use highly dangerous Schedule 7 poisons are issued only for legitimate industrial and commercial purposes (subject to certain exemptions listed below) and applicants may be required to provide sufficient information to the Ministry as is necessary to determine the issuance of an authority.
Authorities are issued subject to a number of mandatory conditions attaching to the authorities, including purpose of use, storage and disposal requirements, and are valid only for a specific period of time.

Other Schedule 7 poisons
These comprise all Schedule 7 poisons other than those listed above, for example; hydrofluoric acid above 1% hydrogen fluoride and potassium nitrite or sodium nitrite above 40%.
The acquisition, use or supply of any of these poisons requires an authority issued by the Ministry of Health when the poison is for use for domestic purposes only.
If the Schedule 7 poison (other than a highly dangerous Schedule 7 poison) is for use for non-domestic purposes, eg industrial, commercial, trade or agvet purposes, no authority is required in NSW.

Any word back from Exit International? I'm still trying to work up the courage to order from DMC - just so nervous about any potential for legal consequences

 

[Fate]

Any word back from Exit International? I'm still trying to work up the courage to order from DMC - just so nervous about any potential for legal consequences

Hi, yes I heard back and I'll quote what they said.

"Dear xxx,

Thank you for your email.
While your question is a good one, for legal reasons Exit does not operate a Q&A on open email.
We suggest instead that you post the question in the forums for an Exit Expert to answer."

I also have not joined the forum since it has an annual fee of about $100 that I'm not willing to pay for to ask the question there. So unfortunately you'll have to just risk it. (There has been no known legal consequences that I know of on this forum of people ordering SN — If they do something, it'll more than likely be a welfare check) — So it's up to you if you can afford a welfare check and will be willing to risk it for the biscuit (Okay, sorry that part was a bit cringe lol)

 

[wayout90]

Hi, yes I heard back and I'll quote what they said.

"Dear xxx,

Thank you for your email.
While your question is a good one, for legal reasons Exit does not operate a Q&A on open email.
We suggest instead that you post the question in the forums for an Exit Expert to answer."

I also have not joined the forum since it has an annual fee of about $100 that I'm not willing to pay for to ask the question there. So unfortunately you'll have to just risk it. (There has been no known legal consequences that I know of on this forum of people ordering SN — If they do something, it'll more than likely be a welfare check) — So it's up to you if you can afford a welfare check and will be willing to risk it for the biscuit (Okay, sorry that part was a bit cringe lol)

Thanks for this and thanks for trying. Kinda gate keeping and profit making for them not to provide that info unless you pay for a subscription but whatever
I wish I was old enough to join. I'm shy by a couple decades. Honestly contemplated trying to get a photo of a relatives ID to try to get access but it's proven too hard.

Maybe I'll just get really high one night soon and order it then - a load of benzos always helps with the nerves. Though knowing me I'll be like the OP and freaking out the entire wait for the package to arrive

Actually now that I think about it, I had someone impersonate me recently and that ended in a police welfare check because of emails sent from a fake address using my name. If popo do rock up to do a welfare check or try to accuse me of committing a crime by importing SN, I could claim it's another case of me being impersonated

I'm a bit high now so hope that's not too rambly

 

[DOHARDTHINGS24]

Thanks for this and thanks for trying. Kinda gate keeping and profit making for them not to provide that info unless you pay for a subscription but whatever
I wish I was old enough to join. I'm shy by a couple decades. Honestly contemplated trying to get a photo of a relatives ID to try to get access but it's proven too hard.

Maybe I'll just get really high one night soon and order it then - a load of benzos always helps with the nerves. Though knowing me I'll be like the OP and freaking out the entire wait for the package to arrive

Actually now that I think about it, I had someone impersonate me recently and that ended in a police welfare check because of emails sent from a fake address using my name. If popo do rock up to do a welfare check or try to accuse me of committing a crime by importing SN, I could claim it's another case of me being impersonated

I'm a bit high now so hope that's not too rambly

Ha! You cannot outramble OP, for I am Queen of the Ramblers!
I am shy of Exit by a couple of years & somehow that "seems" worse - so close, yet so far.
I've heard from a few more AU peeps, it seems that DMC is still the "easiest" choice. As it stands currently, you won't get a welfare check unless something changes - if they get busted or something. I know you can't outreason anxiety but sometimes the anxiety is just from the unknown, so knowing helps. If I'd known & a bunch of other people knew - more about realistic wait times, if the packaging would be a giveaway to customs & to people who could get to my mail before me, how to track across multiple countries, & knowing that all the detours & waits don't mean shit if you end up with what you wanted.
Forewarned is forearmed, hence this thread. I can't say with all this info that I wouldn't have been anxious, but it defs would have been manageable if I knew what to expect, realistically... Best of luck, either way.

 

[wayout90]

Ha! You cannot outramble OP, for I am Queen of the Ramblers!
I am shy of Exit by a couple of years & somehow that "seems" worse - so close, yet so far.
I've heard from a few more AU peeps, it seems that DMC is still the "easiest" choice. As it stands currently, you won't get a welfare check unless something changes - if they get busted or something. I know you can't outreason anxiety but sometimes the anxiety is just from the unknown, so knowing helps. If I'd known & a bunch of other people knew - more about realistic wait times, if the packaging would be a giveaway to customs & to people who could get to my mail before me, how to track across multiple countries, & knowing that all the detours & waits don't mean shit if you end up with what you wanted.
Forewarned is forearmed, hence this thread. I can't say with all this info that I wouldn't have been anxious, but it defs would have been manageable if I knew what to expect, realistically... Best of luck, either way.

Thank you @DOHARDTHINGS24 This is really reassuring. I think I'm just going to take the risk and order it. If for any reason it lands me in legal trouble, that'd just provide more determination for me to CTB by any means necessary - peaceful or not. It's worth a try to order the SN. I'd prefer to die as peacefully as possible on my own terms.
I so appreciate this thread and thanks for sharing your experiences. It does make me feel a little less anxious.

 

[DOHARDTHINGS24]

Thank you @DOHARDTHINGS24 This is really reassuring. I think I'm just going to take the risk and order it. If for any reason it lands me in legal trouble, that'd just provide more determination for me to CTB by any means necessary - peaceful or not. It's worth a try to order the SN. I'd prefer to die as peacefully as possible on my own terms.
I so appreciate this thread and thanks for sharing your experiences. It does make me feel a little less anxious.

Good. I am also the Queen of Anxiety - I can't make that go away for anyone, but if it gets squished down to a bearable amount, that's still something