Pro-life

[Sisyphus]

Browsing this forum, I have come across this term "pro-life." In this forum, those people who are "pro-life" are often mocked, ridiculed, and disparaged.

It's a little disturbing to me because I would consider myself to be "pro-life." By that I mean: I support living, provided you aren't living in unbearable torture. I'd rather help somebody than supply them with a way to end it, and I would consider dying to be a last resort only reserved for a time when nothing can help.

I may get in trouble for saying this, but I think a lot of people in this forum are under the impression that nothing can help them when really they are just suffering from depression, grief, a tragedy, or a very difficult situation. I count myself in this group.

It can seem like death is the only way, but something could change or things could be not as they now seem. So, you see, I am "pro-life." Still, I have a noose sitting right here and I have researched methods from 3 books I got online. It's always good to have an insurance policy.

Now, I do support the right of people to committ suicide if they are truly hopeless, but that is probably a small fraction of those who ultimately end up dying by their own hand. Suicide is usually a tragedy, albeit a tragedy sometimes used to avert a bigger tragedy, that of continuing to live on in torturous situations. Even so, I don't think i could ever count myself among the opposite group, the "pro-death."

 

[Midgardsorm]

"Pro- Life" would be those people who says the following:
"Suicide is never an option", "This is the easy way out", "Suicide is selfish", "You're weak", "Life is a gift of god and only him can end it"

These phrases are often spoke by those who we call prolifers.

Help someone to find a solution and live it's common here and it's even on the rules.
We shall never encourage suicide, we only won't stop those who want to ctb.

The methods are shared here, since euthanasia is completely off question in most countries and even speak of death is a taboo that might get you in a psych ward.

So I don't think you will get in trouble. I encourage people to find their peace, life or death.
It's awesome when someone heals and go about their lives, happily. Sometimes, the story have a sad ending, but at least, the suffering ends.

They say those who commit suicide want to end their pain, not their lives. That is mostly true.

 

[Soulless Angel]

Pro Lifers are the one's who are out to take down this forum, those who don't understand two sides to every good, that there is a bad, these people think people in a suicidal situation should just smile and get over it, because to them life is worth living despite intense trauma, pain etc.
Pro Lifers isn't a term thrown around loosely, but it is used to speak of those who are so anti suicide and refuse to understand the other side. for those who believe forums like this, which has a recovery section, shouldn't exsist, yet this forum can be and is a life saver at times.

I do believe everyone is pro life in a way, and many here do try and recover, but many are unable too for whatever their reason is, and that is when CTB comes into play.

 

[LastLoveLetter]

I would say most here are not "pro-death", but "pro-choice."

I am not pro-death, but I am absolutely pro-choice. It is about not imposing life or encouraging death, but giving people options, affording them an informed choice and respecting their autonomy whether they choose to live or die.

I believe in the right to die and dignity in dying, and I don't agree with the existence of bureaucracy and red tape which dictates who is "allowed" to die, versus who will be forced to live or otherwise kill themselves on their own. It is a deeply personal decision and the individual's feelings, needs and wishes should carry the most weight, not other people's input based on the premise that all life is precious and must be preserved.

Whether or not there is "hope" for a specific individual's case is complex and not straightforward. You may say someone "just" has depression (which can be an awfully debilitating mental illness) for example, but you have to consider each person's limits, access to healthcare and other resources, socioeconomic circumstances, background, whether treatment is attainable and helpful etc.

Even then, it is ultimately their choice - we should all have a right to decide when enough is enough, rather than struggle infinitely in hopes that our plight will be validated and our desire to die will be heard, which it often won't be no matter how much we suffer.

Even in the absence of suffering, our bodies and our lives are ours and only ours. Only we should decide what we do with them.

The issue with the mainstream "pro-life" rhetoric is that it is inherently anti-choice - it eliminates death as an option. It tends to consist of platitudes, cookie cutter advice, guilt-tripping and victim-blaming, rather than respecting those with different perspectives and priorities in relation to life and death.

The "pro-life" individuals most often referred to here are those trying to get this forum taken down. They attempt to do this by labelling us a "pro-death cult" and antagonising members. They want to take away our access to methods and to the community here, without pushing for any alternative provisions for suicidal people. Once again, this demographic is seeking to shame and silence vulnerable members of society because the reality of suicide is too uncomfortable for people who want to remain in their comfortable bubbles and believe that every "life is a gift."

If life is a gift, I would like the freedom to give mine back if I choose to do so.

 

[motel rooms]

Now, I do support the right of people to committ suicide if they are truly hopeless, but that is probably a small fraction of those who ultimately end up dying by their own hand.

@Midgardsorm has explained who we call pro-lifers. I'd call someone like you "not fully pro-choice" if you happen to believe that it's wrong for people who aren't "truly hopeless" (whatever that means) to ctb

 

[slyna]

Pro-lifers are the opposite from being an intellectual.
Who in their right mind supports a life which involves struggle, suffering, sweat, tears, blood and then ultimately a death that can manifest in many forms (car crash, squeezed to death, burnt alive, tortured to death etc). On top of it all, it's all temporary and very short.

It's illogical to support life and to believe it's "fine". Life is STUPID. Parents are absolutley crazy and childish people. They play with human life like they were dolls. Disgusting.

 

[Sisyphus]

You hear countless stories of people who CTB impulsively. For instance, this person broke up with their boyfriend, so they cut their wrist. Another person got a bad grade on a test, or didn't get into the school they wanted to, so they swallow some pills. I'm not trying to minimize their pain, but you can see these kind of people are not truly hopeless.

You may retort, "Who am I to judge another person's subjective experience, to impose my views on their situation, and to determine that their problem is not "worthy" to be considered a legitimate reason for suicide." I see where you are coming from, but I would like to see people like those who I have mentioned continue to live on and recover from their tragedy.

@Midgardsorm has explained who we call pro-lifers. I'd call someone like you "not fully pro-choice" if you happen to believe that it's wrong for people who aren't "truly hopeless" (whatever that means) to ctb

Pro-lifers are the opposite from being an intellectual.
Who in their right mind supports a life which involves struggle, suffering, sweat, tears, blood and then ultimately a death that can manifest in many forms (car crash, squeezed to death, burnt alive, tortured to death etc).

I think the key to this is that in life the good is supposed to outweigh the bad. I don't think it has been that way for me necessarily, but that is at least a theory.

 

[newave3]

I am more pessimistic than many people. I truly believe there is no such thing as recovery after suicidal thoughts have started. The thoughts are stronger on some days and weaker on others but they are always there. It may take days,weeks,months or years before we take our lives but I feel suicide is inevitable. Does that make me "pro-death?" I guess so.

 

[Sisyphus]

I am more pessimistic than many people. I truly believe there is no such thing as recovery after suicidal thoughts have started. The thoughts are stronger on some days and weaker on others but they are always there. It may take days,weeks,months or years before we take our lives but I feel suicide is inevitable. Does that make me "pro-death?" I guess so.

I don't know about your situation, but that can't really be true in general. A ton of people think about suicide and never follow through. Take a look at this web page for example:

Facts About Suicide

This page provides facts about suicide.

www.cdc.gov

Notice where is says that 12 million Americans thought about suicide. Also note where it says that over 90% of people who make a suicide attempt and live, never go on to die by suicide. It seems to me that the vast majority of people who consider suicide ultimately do not die by it.

 

[motel rooms]

You hear countless stories of people who CTB impulsively. For instance, this person broke up with their boyfriend, so they cut their wrist. Another person got a bad grade on a test, or didn't get into the school they wanted to, so they swallow some pills. I'm not trying to minimize their pain, but you can see these kind of people are not truly hopeless.

Those people (most of them are adolescents & young adults) usually don't successfully ctb. A lot of them are quite hopeless though. There's such a thing as underlying issues...

 

[Midgardsorm]

You hear countless stories of people who CTB impulsively. For instance, this person broke up with their boyfriend, so they cut their wrist. Another person got a bad grade on a test, or didn't get into the school they wanted to, so they swallow some pills. I'm not trying to minimize their pain, but you can see these kind of people are not truly hopeless.

You may retort, "Who am I to judge another person's subjective experience, to impose my views on their situation, and to determine that their problem is not "worthy" to be considered a legitimate reason for suicide." I see where you are coming from, but I would like to see people like those who I have mentioned continue to live on and recover from their tragedy.

Yes. There was a video that I saw once, stating the exact same thing.
Some people that took their lives, did it out of impulse. Most though about it, 5 minutes before the action.
Clearly, a mind in a state of pain, anguish, anger won't think clearly.

The United Kingdom suicide rate went down about 1/3 in 1970 just because they switched gas type in the homes and people couldn't asphyxiate with carbon monoxide.

A few rules were created to prevent a suicide out of desperation, like building fences on bridges and keeping guns and ammunition in different places.

Also a few rules were created to prevent what they call the "Werthex Effect", which is when people are pushed into ending their lives because of something they saw, like seeing a suicide on tv or a celebrity commiting suicide.

All those things prevent suicide out of desperation and most Goodbye posts here often have people asking for the OP to reconsider, telling them that it's okay to postpone their action.

Yet, there are those people absolutely without hope of getting better. Living in suffering all days and forced to live a life without dignity. Like Ramon Sampedro, who were quadriplegic and loved 20 years bedridden. He obviously had time to think about his life and his future and decided that he wanted to died, but had his plead denied. His story is very well portrayed in the movie "Sea Inside".

We are here to help people and I've seen posts absolutely asking the OP to wait since they seemed desperate.

Like they said here, we are Pro-Choice. Ctb out of desperation isn't a choice.
That's the whole point of the recovery section, to help people recover.

 

[BottomlessPit]

I would like to see

It's not about what you want, it's about the suicidal's wants. They have a right to bodily autonomy and can ctb for whatever reason they want, and it's quite irrelevant if someone else finds the reason to be "temporary" or not worth it. Their subjective opinion has only bearing on their own lives, never on someone elses.

Notice where is says that 12 million Americans thought about suicide. Also note where it says that over 90% of people who make a suicide attempt and live, never go on to die by suicide. It seems to me that the vast majority of people who consider suicide ultimately do not die by it.

Yeah, because of two reasons I can think of right now: 1) governments restricting access to reliable methods, 2) suicide "attempts" which are not done in order to kill, but to survive and show the people in their lives they are suffering. These people will intentionally choose a non-lethal method, so they need to be distinguished from suicides where death is the goal.

 

[Meditation guide]

It can seem like death is the only way, but something could change or things could be not as they now seem. So, you see, I am "pro-life." Still, I have a noose sitting right here and I have researched methods from 3 books I got online. It's always good to have an insurance policy.

It's not up to me if or when you choose to use your noose, or the reason for that. It's your choice.

Can you see that it's not up to you when or why I choose to die? If so, then you understand the phrase "pro choice".

If you expect to have a choice, other people do too.

 

[TimeLawyer]

There are a wide range of views within this forum- it seems most people here are pro choice, supporting neither death nor life as a hard and fast option, but approaches and other beliefs involved do vary quite a good deal. There are those who say suicide must be very logical and rational, there are those who say it is only for the old or terminally ill, there are those who say "who gets to judge if suicides are rational anyway, it's relative" and those who actively work to get everyone they come across to reconsider no matter what their circumstances. A lot of people here will suggest that the suicidal try therapy or meds, but you might also see the odd person with an anti psychiatry perspective. There are one or two who are into critical psychology like myself as well. Other beliefs a person holds (Views about psychiatry, political beliefs, antinatalism/efilism, philosophical beliefs, religion/spirituality etc.) can influence how a person responds to other suicidal people and what that looks like, in theory and in practice. You may have to spend a bit of time looking around this site, but eventually you will probably be able to find someone with similar views.

 

[OnlyTheWind]

If a person simply "feels" that the only choice is suicide, regardless of the reality, they have the absolute right to terminate their perceived suffering.

 

[Sisyphus]

It's not up to me if or when you choose to use your noose, or the reason for that. It's your choice.

Can you see that it's not up to you when or why I choose to die? If so, then you understand the phrase "pro choice".

If you expect to have a choice, other people do too.

I agree that it is not up to me and it shouldn't be up to me. For that reason I would be pro choice. I would also be pro life in the sense that I am more in support of people living than committing suicide. I don't think these two positions are in opposition. My overall position is that I would rather see somebody live and thrive than commit suicide, but I am in favor of them having a choice to end it if they are in unbearable torture.

 

[Meditation guide]

I agree that it is not up to me and it shouldn't be up to me. For that reason I would be pro choice. I would also be pro life in the sense that I am more in support of people living than committing suicide. I don't think these two positions are in opposition. My overall position is that I would rather see somebody live and thrive than commit suicide, but I am in favor of them having a choice to end it if they are in unbearable torture.

Pro life does not mean you want someone to choose suicide. I think you are not understanding that term. Of course we all want everyone to try to recover.

Pro life means no one should ever be allowed to commit suicide. If you think they should be allowed that right, then you are not pro life.

I hope you realize most people want everyone to try to recover, not just you. That does not automatically make them pro life.

 

[Sisyphus]

Oh I most certainly can "straddle the fence" as you put it, because it's a nuanced position. It's not black and white, it's gray. Let me make it even more gray.

I'm not in support of preventing people outright, but I may be in support of restricting the means of suicide so as to dissuade people from making hasty decisions that they themselves would later regret.

I'm reminded of that man (Kevin Hines) who jumped off the Golden Gate bridge and was one of the few that lived. As his hand left the railing on the way down, he says at that moment he realized what a huge mistake he had made, and how he could never take it back. Luckily, he lived, but it makes you wonder how many people who have jumped and died have had the same realization, but not the same good luck. This is the type of situation I would like to avoid.

 

[Meditation guide]

I'm not in support of preventing people outright, but I may be in support of restricting the means of suicide so as to dissuade people from making hasty decisions that they themselves would later regret.

You cannot say you don't want to prevent people from it, and in the same sentence say you do want to prevent people from it.
Yet that is what you just did.

Saying you want to restrict people from having a way to commit suicide means you are most definitely pro life and want to stop people from committing suicide.

 

[BottomlessPit]

As his hand left the railing on the way down, he says at that moment he realized what a huge mistake he had made

These types if examples are always brought up, and I find them incredibly unconvincing. It's quite obvious that huge amounts of adrenaline kick in when one is in free fall, clouding ones judgment and turning the survival instinct up to 100

 

[Amumu]

Oh I most certainly can "straddle the fence" as you put it, because it's a nuanced position. It's not black and white, it's gray. Let me make it even more gray.

I'm not in support of preventing people outright, but I may be in support of restricting the means of suicide so as to dissuade people from making hasty decisions that they themselves would later regret.

I'm reminded of that man (Kevin Hines) who jumped off the Golden Gate bridge and was one of the few that lived. As his hand left the railing on the way down, he says at that moment he realized what a huge mistake he had made, and how he could never take it back. Luckily, he lived, but it makes you wonder how many people who have jumped and died have had the same realization, but not the same good luck. This is the type of situation I would like to avoid.

Come on, "restricting means"? And then you talk about a bridge?
So you want to restrict access to bridges? (Actually some governments do that)

What's next? Ropes? Fire? Water? Paracetamol? Guns?
Just give us N, because the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

[motel rooms]

I'm reminded of that man (Kevin Hines) who jumped off the Golden Gate bridge and was one of the few that lived. As his hand left the railing on the way down, he says at that moment he realized what a huge mistake he had made, and how he could never take it back. Luckily, he lived, but it makes you wonder how many people who have jumped and died have had the same realization, but not the same good luck. This is the type of situation I would like to avoid.

The fact that unsuccessful jumpers often report "regret" doesn't necessarily mean that they ultimately didn't want to die. That "regret" is not a deep, permanent change of perspective; it's called primitive animalistic fear/SI kicking in, & it happens even when the person is extremely determined to ctb

These types if examples are always brought up, and I find them incredibly unconvincing. It's quite obvious that huge amounts of adrenaline kick in when one is in free fall, clouding ones judgment and turning the survival instinct up to 100

I guess my comment is kind of redundant

 

[Sisyphus]

You cannot say you don't want to prevent people from it, and in the same sentence say you do want to prevent people from it.
Yet that is what you just did.

You can't really utimately prevent anybody from committing suicide. If they really want to, then they eventually will. However, you can dissuade them from it by restricting the means, something I think most societies on earth have done.

An analogous example is gun control. Guns are restricted to limit accidents and crimes committed with guns. In that case, everybody gives up some freedom to prevent tragedies from happening.

 

[Meditation guide]

However, you can dissuade them from it by restricting the means, something I think most societies on earth have done

That means you are anti choice. That makes you solidly pro life. No choice allowed. come on stop with the pretending you are ok with it.

Why are you on a site like this?

 

[Sisyphus]

These types if examples are always brought up, and I find them incredibly unconvincing. It's quite obvious that huge amounts of adrenaline kick in when one is in free fall, clouding ones judgment and turning the survival instinct up to 100

Yes, but even now the man says it was a mistake. He has had a lot of time to think about it, without his judgement being clouded. He went on to become an activist promoting suicide prevention.

 

[motel rooms]

That means you are anti choice. That makes you solidly pro life. No choice allowed. come on stop with the pretending you are ok with it.

Why are you on a site like this?

He's a bit of a hypocrite. He's pro-choice mostly when it comes to his right to choose...

 

[Meditation guide]

Yes, but even now the man says it was a mistake. He has had a lot of time to think about it, without his judgement being clouded. He went on to become an activist promoting suicide prevention.

That's up to him just as it's up to me, you or anyone else what to decide. And to force people to resort to hanging themselves or jumping from bridges is the height of cruelty.

People who think that we should force people to resort to gruesome ways to end their lives is the height of condescending arrogance.

It's people who think like you do that have made my life a living hell, along with millions of others.

 

[Sisyphus]

That means you are anti choice. That makes you solidly pro life. No choice allowed. come on stop with the pretending you are ok with it.

Why are you on a site like this?

I am for people having the choice, and I do think that everybody has the choice. I had the choice to buy my rope. When I think about something like N, something that easy, quick, and alluring, it occurs to me that it probably is best to not have it widely available on every street corner.

Not everything has to be completely restricted or completely permitted. Again, not black and white, it's gray. Surely, you can understand it. Honestly don't think it is too hard to understand.

Maybe I'm just doing a poor job explaining it, or else people are not used to a middle way.

 

[BottomlessPit]

If they really want to, then they eventually will.

Yeah, with less than ideal methods that are highly risky and with increased chances of a botched attempt, because all the good methods are restricted by governments due to the exact same pro-life sentiments you exhibit. Do you know how much suffering is caused by the restriction of methods? How many people are turned into vegetables because of the inability of pro-lifers to keep their noses out of people's private business?

In that case, everybody gives up some freedom to prevent tragedies from happening.

Suicides are not tragedies. Being forced to live because of nosy pro-lifers on the other hand, is.

Yes, but even now the man says it was a mistake. He has had a lot of time to think about it, without his judgement being clouded. He went on to become an activist promoting suicide prevention.

If his suicide would've been successful, he wouldn't have the possibility of mourning a regretted decision.

 

[LastLoveLetter]

The view that suicide is only okay in "certain circumstances" (e.g. their situation must be seen as "hopeless" and they must be "suffering unbearably," as judged by others and not by the suicidal person themselves) results in exclusion of those who do not fit the arbitrary criteria of such circumstances. Pro-choice in a specific set of conditions that you personally approve of is not really pro-choice at all. And to be frank, who here has the entitlement to assume the role of judge, jury and executioner over people's right to live or die? If life is a basic human right, then death should be too, irrespective of the individual's reasons.

What really happens when peaceful methods are restricted is that people resort to painful, frightening and at times unreliable methods that can be highly traumatic for both the suicidal individual and for those who find them or witness their deaths. Everyone should have the right to die in peace and dignity, not risk excruciating pain, failed attempts that cause more damage and dying afraid and alone. It is utterly inhumane. We allow animals more dignity than that when we euthanise them.