Discussion Is there an appropriate age or rather, is there such thing as an underage when it comes to gender identity assessment?

[Forever Sleep]

I wanted to make this separate thread partly in response to @coolgal82 's thread concerning the UK government withdrawing puberty blockers to trans children.

I initially want to say that this is by no means meant as a dig at trans people. I'm instead hoping that this comes across as a genuine question- not a criticism. The question matters because it does affect policies like the above. (Although it seems like the withdrawal of those drugs was down to health concerns regarding possible serious side effects.)

But anyway- here are the questions/ concerns: Is there an age we can properly assess our gender identity? Is there such a thing as being too underage to make this decision? Is it possible for a child to get it wrong? If they are then given medical treatment- will this have a negative affect on them?

What causes transgenderism? Is it solely a biological need? Are other influences possible? For example- adolescence can be a confusing time for a lot of people. Is it possible that other problems a child is having is being misinterpreted as that? Is that even possible? For an 8-10 year old say. I would have thought the desire to be a different gender was very biologically specific but, is it possible that outside culture may be affecting some children?

How can we account for the massive rise in transgenderism in children? Is it because it is at least less taboo now? So, genuine people are able to be who they want to be or, is it even possible that some people (especially children) may be influenced by it's increased visibility? That in some cases, perhaps it has become a scapegoat for other issues going on for them? At what age can they properly understand it themselves?

I really hope this wasn't offensive to anyone. It wasn't intended as a dismissal that trans people aren't genuine. Even trans children. Perhaps everyone is genuine- that's a reasonable position to take. My question rather is: Is it even possible that in some cases, are other issues at play? How do medical professionals/ parents/ teachers distinguish? Is there an underage period where the child may not be able to know for themselves? What are your thoughts? It would be especially interesting to hear the experiences of trans people. Did you know for sure very early on? Do you think everyone does?

I was always a tomboy. I've almost never strongly identified with the female gender or rather- societies expectations of it. I can't say I had a very strong desire to be male though. I hated my body but I think that's because of beauty standards rather than truly hating being female. Sometimes I wonder though- if I were born in this age- would those feelings flourish further? If we decide we are unhappy in a main part due to the gender we are. If we experience a hatred of our bodies- which I'd argue is actively encouraged. Can that push us further into dysmorphia? Is it possible to perceive being trans as a possible solution rather than a genuine desire? Is that enough to sustain a complete change in gender? Will it cause physical/ psychological damage if it turns out it was the wrong decision?

I briefly read this article which covers some of these issues:

‘An explosion’: what is behind the rise in girls questioning their gender identity? | Transgender | The Guardian

amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[Namelesa]

I do agree that gender transition shouldn't be encouraged but it shouldn't be discouraged. It should just be only the person themselves that should figure out their gender and make the choice to gender transition. However there is no harm with stuff like social transition at early ages as that just includes change of name, pronouns, clothes, hair etc and not medical transition which includes medications and surgeries. Children should be allow to experiment with their gender if they are unsure about it with social transition and temporarily changes to their appearance.

Tho puberty blockers should be available for children going into puberty cus if they think they are trans and if they don't take them, their body could have permanent changes to it that could forever make that person more dysphoric. Trans women may have to suffer with a more masculine body when trans men may have to suffer with a more feminine body. Trans adults may have to go through more surgeries to relieve their gender dysphoria than what is necessary if they don't take puberty blockers as a child. Puberty blockers shouldn't cause much physical harm when taken from the age you start puberty to the age 16 (at least in my country) to start taking the primary hormones of the opposite sex as when you take them they lessen the negative effects of blocker such as lower bone density as thats just caused by a lack of sex hormone. Puberty blockers allow children who aren't sure of their gender to be able to make the choice of going through whichever puberty they want at a later age so that they less likely to regret permanent changes to their body and cause less dysphoria later in life. This is why taking hormones of the opposite sex can only be made later in life which I agree with as that causes permanent changes to the body. When you are older you should be allowed to make more decisions on what you want for your body and so should be allowed to take hormones.

When I first knew about trans people as a teenager, I instantly knew I was a trans girl from my experiences from early childhood to the age I was then. Nothing encouraged me to gender transition, I just simply figured it out myself that this was whats best for me. I would consider myself lucky cus even if I went through most of male puberty, I had a more natural feminine body compared to most boys and so don't have as many regrets and dysphoria with my body now with hormones however other trans people may not be so lucky with their natural puberties which can cause their mental health to be worse. Puberty blockers should be allowed for children not to encourage them to transition but to allow them to make the choice of what their gender is later in life when they can be more sure of what permanent changes they want with their body.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I do agree that gender transition shouldn't be encouraged but it shouldn't be discouraged. It should just be only the person themselves that should figure out their gender and make the choice to gender transition. However there is no harm with stuff like social transition at early ages as that just includes change of name, pronouns, clothes, hair etc and not medical transition which includes medications and surgeries. Children should be allow to experiment with their gender if they are unsure about it with social transition and temporarily changes to their appearance.

Tho puberty blockers should be available for children going into puberty cus if they think they are trans and if they don't take them, their body could have permanent changes to it that could forever make that person more dysphoric. Trans women may have to suffer with a more masculine body when trans men may have to suffer with a more feminine body. Trans adults may have to go through more surgeries to relieve their gender dysphoria than what is necessary if they don't take puberty blockers as a child. Puberty blockers shouldn't cause much physical harm when taken from the age you start puberty to the age 16 (at least in my country) to start taking the primary hormones of the opposite sex as when you take them they lessen the negative effects of blocker such as lower bone density as thats just caused by a lack of sex hormone. Puberty blockers allow children who aren't sure of their gender to be able to make the choice of going through whichever puberty they want at a later age so that they less likely to regret permanent changes to their body and cause less dysphoria later in life. This is why taking hormones of the opposite sex can only be made later in life which I agree with as that causes permanent changes to the body. When you are older you should be allowed to make more decisions on what you want for your body and so should be allowed to take hormones.

When I first knew about trans people as a teenager, I instantly knew I was a trans girl from my experiences from early childhood to the age I was then. Nothing encouraged me to gender transition, I just simply figured it out myself that this was whats best for me. I would consider myself lucky cus even if I went through most of male puberty, I had a more natural feminine body compared to most boys and so don't have as many regrets and dysphoria with my body now with hormones however other trans people may not be so lucky with their natural puberties which can cause their mental health to be worse. Puberty blockers should be allowed for children not to encourage them to transition but to allow them to make the choice of what their gender is later in life when they can be more sure of what permanent changes they want with their body.

That was really interesting to read and informative. Honestly, I hadn't even heard of puberty blockers until today but, what you said made a lot of sense. I especially agree with the less permanent changes earlier in life to give people space to figure out what's right for them.

 

[ham and potatoes]

I'll probably get allot of hate for this, but I don't think anything should be done regarding gender reassignment until they are considered adults in their area. Like, if you can't legally buy smokes or booze cause your brain isn't developed enough, shouldn't be able to undergo life changing hormonal treatment or cosmetic surgery

 

[Forever Sleep]

I'll probably get allot of hate for this, but I don't think anything should be done regarding gender reassignment until they are considered adults in their area. Like, if you can't legally buy smokes or booze cause your brain isn't developed enough, shouldn't be able to undergo life changing hormonal treatment or cosmetic surgery

It's been interesting to hear from trans people who know more about it first hand. I could see their point that the social adaptions to begin with- choosing a different name, dressing differently etc. were good intermediary steps. If I'm honest, I also have mixed feelings about drugs for children. The puberty blockers for instance. I can completely understand that they could be very beneficial in suppressing dysphoria.

My concern is the same as yours really though. Can someone that young be absolutely sure? And, once they start down the path of drugs, will that have negative consequences later on if they realise they were mistaken? I just don't know. I don't know how common it is for people to change their mind. I don't know what these drugs do really.

I'm afraid I'm terribly lazy when it comes to researching things to inform threads/ ideas. I'm not when it's official- dissertations etc. but here, I'm really just spewing out various questions in my head.

I don't think it should really generate hate though. It's a genuine concern for someone's health. It's not saying people shouldn't have the right to be the gender they feel in their heart they are. It's more a question of when we can be sure of our own minds/ feelings.

Oddly- it's not so different from the right to die argument. That many people here (obviously) advocate for it but many also have an age in mind when it feels like we are able to make such a decision. Commonly 18. Changing gender obviously isn't as serious as dieing but, can an 8 year old say, truly decide? I don't know. Maybe they can.

I just don't know but, I can understand parents for instance wondering what the right thing to do is. The article I linked to, referenced some obviously caring but concerned parents. Who clearly wanted to support their child and not inhibit their choice but, still had concerns over whether they were making the right choice and how it may affect them in future if they went too far and then, changed their minds.

 

[ham and potatoes]

Can someone that young be absolutely sure?

that's the thing...... 14 year old me would have done some absolutely stupid shit had i been able to.
Id probably have all kinds of dumb tattoos and whatnot.
there's a reason they make you wait til a certain age to do certain things.
if they want to dress like another sex, or go by a different name, be my guest. but i dont think they should do anything life altering til adulthood

 

[yowai]

What's the point of these threads if you're going to get mass reported if you disagree with certain views lol.

 

[Namelesa]

What's the point of these threads if you're going to get mass reported if you disagree with certain views lol.

I not reporting anyone and I agree that children shouldn't have surgeries or hormones as they cause permanent changes. I am only saying that children should be able to social transition as you can always change your mind on that and with puberty blockers as puberty causes permanent changes and if a child is trans or isn't sure on their gender yet should take them as their natural puberty will cause permanent changes that could forever cause more discomfort and dysphoria later in life if the child is trans. If the person changes their mind they can just go off them and natural puberty continues.

 

[Cavalcade]

It's a very difficult, nuanced topic, with a highly charged backdrop due to the cultural zeitgeist. Personally, as someone who is LGBT, (I would consider myself nonbinary, and am bisexual with a preference for women), a lot of growing up involved figuring shit out. The heavy backdrop of an intensely conservative and highly religious upbringing, and the damage of regressive gender roles (being raised to believe that education was a waste for women, for example, as they would merely go on to be married and pop out babies, and become homemakers and obedient wives) definitely complicated my personal exploration. As did my extensive trauma history, and almost decade long eating disorder.

I knew from about the time I was five or so, that I did like girls. It was in an innocent, childish way- that I liked girls the way that boys liked girls, and I fantasized a bit about playing house and marriage: I always envisioned myself as the husband in those games, because that was who would come home to sweep the wife up into a big hug and bring her scruffy dandelions and chivalrously pull her chair out for her, or open the door, or hold her hand and take charge when confronted by bullies: very protective, chivalrous, quite butch.

I had no concept of gay or lesbian relationships, in that I had only ever been introduced to marriage and romance as a heterosexual framing, and later developed intense shame and self hate- which led to self harm, and deep mental illness, because of thinking I was an aberration to God and a disgusting, shameful sinner, who would contaminate the women I fancied by virtue of my overwhelming wrongness. I was not pressured into gender nonconformity- in fact, I was pressed into frills and ruffles, oodles of pink and purple- immaculately girlish, pristine in my modesty, and ultra-feminine.

I explored around with a lesbian identity when I was in my teenage years- and I found a lot of surprising overlap and solidarity with transmasculine people I met there: the butch lesbian, and the trans man experience, have a lot of similarities. Ultimately, I realized I was bisexual, but more so in the sense that I essentially have only ever been with cis women and trans men- I don't really have much interest in being with cis men, though this is likely due to intense sexual trauma in my youth, and a religious upbringing that beat it into me that all men were dangerous, ravenous to defile and desecrate, and my highest duty as a woman was to remain pure, virginal, and untouched- until I was given away in the sanctity of marriage.

It was having the explorative experiences of being with lesbian and bisexual women, of talking to transmasculine men who had similar experiences, and being allowed to find what felt comfortable and right for me, what I found appealing and enjoyable, that let me ultimately come to peace with my body and identity. It was powerful for me to meet women who lived, thrived outside of the strict gender roles and box allotted for women I had been raised with, and shocking to realize I could also be with women, if I wanted.

I've bounced around all over the place identity and presentation wise- but the key thing is I was able to do that sort of social exploration safely. I did not (could not have, due to medical issues) undergo any medical interventions, but to this day I pass very convincingly as either a young woman or a effeminate young man- to the extent I've been slurred both as a dyke and a faggot by street preachers depending on the day: I have quite androgynous features that I play around with presentation wise, and I am comfortable in that androgyny.

I am generally pragmatic about my identity: I only request my close loved ones to refer to me by my chosen name and pronouns, and understand that how I move through the world will be highly impacted by how I look, and so I don't bother kicking up a fuss- my colleagues don't need to know anything about the nuances of my identity, and I am always forthcoming with medical doctors about my sex, as this is far more pertinent in the management of my genetic disorder than my gender identity.

I think it's important for young people to be given the grace to explore their identities, though personally, I know that I benefited from having the time to come to terms with my body, and to come to a sort of peace with it. So, I am generally all for adolescents being allowed to socially transition, if they find it helpful to do so- a haircut and change of clothes, a new nickname- none of that is permanent, and can help someone feel more comfortable as they grapple with their sense of identity. As for medical transition: I have no personal experience with it, and know I am in a different position than most, because of my androgyny, so I would defer to medical expert opinions there.

 

[CogitoMori]

The point of puberty blockers is so kids can decide when they're actually old enough for permanent changes like hormones or surgery. Gender identity can be assessed at any age. Most trans people will tell you that before we knew what "trans" was, we still had thoughts and feelings of dysphoria. I didn't even know what gay was until I was 10, but when I was 5 I cried when my dad told me I wouldn't grow a beard, and when I was 7 I told my mom I felt like it'd be better to be a boy.

 

[coolgal82]

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

i encourage anyone entering this thread who genuinely cares about the topic and isnt here to parrot some transphobic talking point to read through this reddit post, it debunks every common transphobic argument (including against puberty blockers iirc) with loads of sources

@Alexei_Kirillov i encourage you especially to read it as it goes over puberty blockers as i said

 

[Namelesa]

@Forever Sleep might be worthwhile to ask yourself whether "gender identity" even exists before beginning to delve into this topic.


Puberty is not an on/off switch that can be "blocked" without consequence; the term "puberty blocker" itself is a bit of a misnomer. And since we've been using these drugs off-label for so little time, there isn't a lot of data yet on their effectiveness (including on mental health outcomes) and reversibility, especially in the long-term. This is essentially why the UK is stopping their usage (in their own words: "We have concluded that there is not enough evidence to support the safety or clinical effectiveness of PSH to make the treatment routinely available at this time.")

Currently the major areas of concern seem to be cognitive development (including IQ), bone development (as you pointed out), and sexual dysfunction, none of which are trivial. This should not be a surprise to any of us on SaSu, who have all heard horror stories about the effects of anti-depressants and other psych drugs -- and that's for fully-grown adults! Now imagine similar psychotropic interventions but on an underdeveloped brain. In short, puberty blockers don't give kids time to think, but rather almost necessarily push them down the path of medicalized transition.

Are suggesting that gender is not different from sex? I could be stupid and assuming things but if you are saying gender doesn't exist in terms of a concept made by society then you are wrong. if you are saying gender doesn't exist as a biological thing then I agree as the concept of gender is made by humans.

If those physical effects are true, I would say they still shouldn't be banned for trans kids. Gender dysphoria is hell and natural puberty can be the most traumatic thing to happen to a trans child as they see their body turn into something more uncomfortable as time goes on. So many trans people are suffering greatly from having to go through natural puberty. Even with me being lucky with my natural puberty, I wish I could of taken them earlier in life as to not be so tall, I would rather go through the negative physical and emotional effects to get a body I will be more comfortable in. If I was more unlucky, I would 100% rather kill myself than continue being in a body I am uncomfortable in.

 

[Forever Sleep]

What's the point of these threads if you're going to get mass reported if you disagree with certain views lol.

I don't think we would get reported unless we were expressing hate. That's what I wanted to avoid here. I was hoping instead, it would be a genuine discussion on: Is there an 'underage' when it comes to making such a decision? Could there be negative consequences for someone who later feels they made the wrong decision. If they had taken drugs, for instance?

 

[Dot]

What's the point of these threads if you're going to get mass reported if you disagree with certain views lol.

Thre = signfcnt trns cmmunty on sasu & if certn commnts r recgnisd as commn tlkng pnts or dg-whistls usd in anti-trns cmmuntis thn thy wll b rportd as ste = a sfe spce fr trns ppl as wll as stff tryn2 kp as sfe spce frm othr knds of discrmnatn also

 

[Forever Sleep]

Thre = signfcnt trns cmmunty on sasu & if certn commnts r recgnisd as commn tlkng pnts or dg-whistls usd in anti-trns cmmuntis thn thy wll b rportd as ste = a sfe spce fr trns ppl as wll as stff tryn2 kp as sfe spce frm othr knds of discrmnatn also

Which I absolutely agree with and support. I hope this doesn't come across as that though. These were genuine questions/ concerns I had but- if they do seem offensive, I apologise and would prefer the thread be taken down- if it's likely to cause upset.

 

[NormallyNeurotic]

The "massive rise in trans kids" that happened was due to an increase in information access, and also due to it having to be hid less. I also suspect that a lot of those kids ended up in institutions/lobotomized/choosing to CTB back then, if they ever became aware and did not unhealthily dissociate from the gender incongruence.

You may ask then, why are kids still coming out as trans at that rate now that trans rights are being attacked left and right? Well, it's simple. The generation coming out has been "radicalized" by seeing the chaos of our society. So many of these kids are tired of it. They've learned the history, and they don't want to experience what their predecessors did.

To accept your trans identity is to be you... as is to refuse to let others strip it from you.


Now to set a few records straight:

No trans children are getting genital surgery (known as "bottom surgery"). I specify trans children, because intersex infants are still regularly given this without consent. If you look at these cases, you see why trans kids do not get theses surgeries.

The body has so far to grow, and of all things the genitals may have to grow the most, especially during puberty. Depending on how severe the surgery was, the mutilated intersex infants have to get repeated "revision" surgeries as they grow to avoid scar tissue tearing open.

If trans kids were having these surgeries, some whistleblower would have immediately found a way to leak medical records describing these horrors. But they haven't. And the intersex babies are simply being "fixed" in their eyes, so they do not care for them.

Next, about puberty blockers. These were created to be used by cis kids with precocious puberty, and have been for years before trans kids even got to have the possibility of using them. They are reversible and nondamaging at the same rate as many medical treatments people give their kids. Hell, they have less side effects than many birth control pills! Most of the effects are related to puberty themselves (risk of bone density issues, stuff like that.)

If people truly wanted kids to "wait until they're old enough," you'd think they'd ENCOURAGE puberty blockers, to give kids that time to choose. But they don't care, and never have.

HRT/GAHT (hormones) given to minors is very complex, but I don't think it makes sense to set a hard age requirement... other than saying you shouldn't give fucking 8 year olds hormones. Obviously. If people take into account puberty blockers, the general age can be estimated based on the kid's unique situation. Better access to puberty blockers would avoid a lot of kids even WANTING to get HRT so young! As a minor (around 16 or so) I almost got the chance to start testosterone. I started planning, and seeing the feture so close actually helped my mental and physical disabilities. Turns out it's actually pretty hard to fight the demons in your mind when the gender dysphoria is stabbing you in the back the whole time. And when you alleviate the dysphoria, more brain power can be put towards healing. Wild! Anyway, my state made it so we could not get it due to insurance issues, and my mental health only worsened, leaving me the mental and physical mess I am right now.

On a nicer note, I have a friend who is almost 17 and has been on testosterone for years. His doctors, therapist, and parents assessed the risk and found that he was better off this way. Typically this is done with minors at severe suicide risk. He is happy, healthy, and recently got chest masculization surgery that has healed perfectly—which is a great segway into the discussion on the only surgery minors (aka at least TEENS) WOULD get, top surgery.

Honestly, I have the same opinion on this as the hormones. Therapy, doctors, parents. Therapy that neither encourages, nor discourages. That explores possible trauma, peer pressure, and disorders like BPD, DID, etc (both of which I have myself as a transman, because it is clear at this point they aren't what's causing my gender incongruence), but also takes into account that these are not the end-all-be-all. A doctor that gives many alternative options and works with said therapist, but does not desperately cling to "ANYTHING BUT HRT!!!" Also, access to community. Yes, community. You'd be surprised that most of the time experiencing the community doesn't encourage cis kids to be trans, but instead shows them how inherently different they are from the trans people and helps them find their real gender—be it trans or cis. I only came to terms with being trans many years after already being active in the community, if that's any insight that it won't encourage kids. And I'm autistic! We're supposed to be the "gullible" ones I wonder why I wasn't "transgenderfied" earlier?

Honestly, I hate that this has to be a black and white issue. Context and nuance are dead to most people.

The people who want kids not to be trans should be PUSHING for puberty blockers and trauma therapy, because that would weed out the kids who were just questioning!

And us pro-trans people need to acknowledge that it's not transphobic to say that, yeah, some situations might make a kid think they are trans. Some situations can even make a kid who IS trans have worsening gender dysphoria, therefore shifting medical outcome!

It's not scary to acknowledge these things. The fact that people try to hide it just gives the fascists who want us "eradicated entirely" more ammo. We need to foster acceptance instead. Raising kids around both queer people and non-queer people normalizes in the kid's developing brain that this is just how some people are. It helps them focus on who THEY are meant to be, instead of mimicking the only sexualities and gender expressions they're exposed to (compulsory heterosexuality, for example.)

It is actually more confusing to hide queer people from a kid then to not even bat an eye at it. Kids mimic reactions. My mom taught me a trick to deal with little kids. If one trips and falls, don't start fussing because they will cry too. If you frame it as an "oopsie," kids who AREN'T actually injured will see that the adult is not scared, so they shouldn't be either. Next thing you know, they forget all about it.

Hiding queerness and transness from kids makes it a BIGGER deal when they finally find out. It's like entering a whole new world, and because they question their reality, some will end up naturally questioning themselves too. All of the methods that the anti-trans people use to try to curb transness is more likely to put people at risk—both cis AND trans.


TL;DR (except this synopsis is also rly long sry)

Medical decisions should be based in science and psychology, and catered to each individual's situation.not governed by people who think horse dewormer cures COVID. Instead of bans, there should be guidelines, and increased NON-BIASED STUDIES. There should be better acceptance and exposure to queerness in a way that makes it so kids don't see it as anything but what it is... a normal human variance of the brain, existence, and expression. Also, let your little boys paint their nails and let your little girls dress up as princes, for fucks sake. Depriving them of that won't make them cis if they are trans, and it won't make them trans if they are cis. It makes them a happy, creative human being that has a better understanding of their ability to express feelings and style. It lets them see their body as their own versus the property of their parents. And if the kid sees their body as their own, they will have an easier time knowing WHO they are—gender included.

 

[needthebus]

if you wait until 18 for puberty blockers, a male who feels female will have facial bones, shoulders, hip bones, and adam's apples that look male.

at that point, surgery can only correct some of it, and costs many thousands of dollars, probably over 100K to do a decent job, which is why many turn to prostitution and many others to suicide

many trans people commit suicide, like a huge percentage, and with early intervention it goes way down

uneducated people on the topic who are ignorant of this think "Well, we should be cautious and wait..." But if you wait, they are more likely to commit suicide.

So "being cautious" would mean advocating for puberty blockers by age 12 if the goal is to reduce mortality caused by suicide.

The whole "be cautious and avoid care until 18" narrative comes from the religious, who will do anything to defend the blatant falsehoods of their stupid virgins giving birth to magical people with superpowers cults. Because trans people seem gross to some people, and many people exist in a cone of religous ignorance, people just accept this must make sense, evidence and reasoning be damned.

 

[NormallyNeurotic]

I wanted to make this separate thread partly in response to @coolgal82 's thread concerning the UK government withdrawing puberty blockers to trans children.

I initially want to say that this is by no means meant as a dig at trans people. I'm instead hoping that this comes across as a genuine question- not a criticism. The question matters because it does affect policies like the above. (Although it seems like the withdrawal of those drugs was down to health concerns regarding possible serious side effects.)

But anyway- here are the questions/ concerns: Is there an age we can properly assess our gender identity? Is there such a thing as being too underage to make this decision? Is it possible for a child to get it wrong? If they are then given medical treatment- will this have a negative affect on them?

What causes transgenderism? Is it solely a biological need? Are other influences possible? For example- adolescence can be a confusing time for a lot of people. Is it possible that other problems a child is having is being misinterpreted as that? Is that even possible? For an 8-10 year old say. I would have thought the desire to be a different gender was very biologically specific but, is it possible that outside culture may be affecting some children?

How can we account for the massive rise in transgenderism in children? Is it because it is at least less taboo now? So, genuine people are able to be who they want to be or, is it even possible that some people (especially children) may be influenced by it's increased visibility? That in some cases, perhaps it has become a scapegoat for other issues going on for them? At what age can they properly understand it themselves?

I really hope this wasn't offensive to anyone. It wasn't intended as a dismissal that trans people aren't genuine. Even trans children. Perhaps everyone is genuine- that's a reasonable position to take. My question rather is: Is it even possible that in some cases, are other issues at play? How do medical professionals/ parents/ teachers distinguish? Is there an underage period where the child may not be able to know for themselves? What are your thoughts? It would be especially interesting to hear the experiences of trans people. Did you know for sure very early on? Do you think everyone does?

I was always a tomboy. I've almost never strongly identified with the female gender or rather- societies expectations of it. I can't say I had a very strong desire to be male though. I hated my body but I think that's because of beauty standards rather than truly hating being female. Sometimes I wonder though- if I were born in this age- would those feelings flourish further? If we decide we are unhappy in a main part due to the gender we are. If we experience a hatred of our bodies- which I'd argue is actively encouraged. Can that push us further into dysmorphia? Is it possible to perceive being trans as a possible solution rather than a genuine desire? Is that enough to sustain a complete change in gender? Will it cause physical/ psychological damage if it turns out it was the wrong decision?

I briefly read this article which covers some of these issues:

‘An explosion’: what is behind the rise in girls questioning their gender identity? | Transgender | The Guardian

amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org

By the way, I appreciate how you come into this with as little bias as possible, just pure curiosity ❤ I miss when it was normalized to just be curious before you decide for sure

 

[Forever Sleep]

if you wait until 18 for puberty blockers, a male who feels female will have facial bones, shoulders, hip bones, and adam's apples that look male.

at that point, surgery can only correct some of it, and costs many thousands of dollars, probably over 100K to do a decent job, which is why many turn to prostitution and many others to suicide

many trans people commit suicide, like a huge percentage, and with early intervention it goes way down

uneducated people on the topic who are ignorant of this think "Well, we should be cautious and wait..." But if you wait, they are more likely to commit suicide.

So "being cautious" would mean advocating for puberty blockers by age 12 if the goal is to reduce mortality caused by suicide.

The whole "be cautious and avoid care until 18" narrative comes from the religious, who will do anything to defend the blatant falsehoods of their stupid virgins giving birth to magical people with superpowers cults. Because trans people seem gross to some people, and many people exist in a cone of religous ignorance, people just accept this must make sense, evidence and reasoning be damned.

That's a really good point. I don't get why then- in the report about puberty blockers that scientists claimed there was no clear benefit to mental health. It's obvious from what a lot of people have said here- that there are clear benefits. Less body dysmorpia possibly contributing to ideation, possibly leading to actual suicides.

By the way, I appreciate how you come into this with as little bias as possible, just pure curiosity ❤ I miss when it was normalized to just be curious before you decide for sure

Thank you. It truly is curiosity and I agree, I think it's important to be able to discuss things openly without fear of being labelled transphobic.

It's been an interesting learning curve for me. I ought to have done more research beforehand really. But, from what people have said, it really does seem to me like the puberty blockers in particular surely do aid a lot in giving a person time and having less intense body dysmorphia with possibly less side effects than I imagined. It does seem weird then that scientists are supposedly saying they bring no mental health benefits. Seems the opposite to me.

 

[needthebus]

That's a really good point. I don't get why then- in the report about puberty blockers that scientists claimed there was no clear benefit to mental health. It's obvious from what a lot of people have said here- that there are clear benefits. Less body dysmorpia possibly contributing to ideation, possibly leading to actual suicides.


Thank you. It truly is curiosity and I agree, I think it's important to be able to discuss things openly without fear of being labelled transphobic.

It's been an interesting learning curve for me. I ought to have done more research beforehand really. But, from what people have said, it really does seem to me like the puberty blockers in particular surely do aid a lot in giving a person time and having less intense body dysmorphia with possibly less side effects than I imagined. It does seem weird then that scientists are supposedly saying they bring no mental health benefits. Seems the opposite to me.

no clear evidence doesn't mean there is no causal link

no clear benefit to mental health probably means no one has done a study comparing 12 year olds who took puberty blockers to those who didn't, and both groups had the same supportive environment, and both groups transitioned at 18, and then looking at suicide rates in the next 10 years to compare if puberty blockers at 12 decreased suicide. It would be an expensive study to do.

Also, it may be that people who transition at 18 and look more masculine but are on hormones have the same lower suicide rates as those on puberty blockers who later transition completely. This would seem counter-intuitive to me, but sometimes results are counterintuitive. I don't have data on these rates and don't know.

Much more likely, there just isn't much data on puberty blockers and later suicide risk but there is data on things like who gets cancer and so the increase in cancer rates is statistically significant when taking puberty blockers. So you have harm, with clear data, versus possible reduced harm with weak data or non-existent data.

I think for many trans woman, a 5% chance of getting horrible cancer, but looking more like a normal female and being able to pass is probably an acceptable risk as compared to having a masculaine face that surgery can never fully make feminine, although not sure, just presuming.

 

[Namelesa]

I think for many trans woman, a 5% chance of getting horrible cancer, but looking more like a normal female and being able to pass is probably an acceptable risk as compared to having a masculaine face that surgery can never fully make feminine, although not sure, just presuming.

Having higher chance of breast cancer as a way to deter trans women/fems from hormones is stupid as cis women have a higher chance of it than cis men so of course trans women will have a higher chance of getting it. Should we make every cis women gender medically transition to a man to just lessen their risk of breast cancer? NO!

Also trans women/fems are less likely to get prostate cancer so by transitioning you are simply swapping the chances of different cancers.

 

[Forever Sleep]

no clear benefit to mental health probably means no one has done a study comparing 12 year olds who took puberty blockers to those who didn't, and both groups had the same supportive environment, and both grouos transitioned at 18, and then looking at suicide rates in thr next 10 years. It would be an expensive study to do.

Also, it may be that people who transition at 18 and look more masculine but are on hormones have the same lower suicide rates as those on puberty blockers who later transition completely.

Much more likely, there just isn't much data on that, but there is data on things like who gets cancer and so the increase in cancer rates is statistically significant. So you have harm, with clear data, versus possible reduced harm with weak data or non-existent data.

I think for many trans woman, a 5% chance of getting horrible cancer, but looking more like a normal female and being able to pass is probably an acceptable risk as compared to having a masculaine face that surgery can never fully make feminine, although not sure, just presuming.

That's the trouble though isn't it? Body dysmorphia and Ideation don't always end in suicide but it doesn't mean that person is living a good quality of life. If they have body dysmorphia and possibly ideation, they can't be all that mentally well. (Comfortable/ happy.)

That's why I found it curious they specified they weren't aiding people with their 'mental health'. You're right of course- how are they making that assessment? Obviously, physical illnessess are easier to track.

Again, I should be doing the research really. I wonder if they looked into things like the severity of dysmorphia, the presence of depression and ideation even without these drugs.

I'm sure people suffering severely with dysmorphia etc. likely would risk side effects to just be able to live a less tortured life but again- the question comes down to- do we know how bad these side effects are and- can say a minor have enough appreciation of the circumstances to choose?

Obviously though, I'm sure they're not handing drugs out like candy anyway! I'm sure they do detailed individual assessments.

 

[ham and potatoes]

if you wait until 18 for puberty blockers, a male who feels female will have facial bones, shoulders, hip bones, and adam's apples that look male.

if you take puberty blockers, and then decide to quit, do you experience normal puberty, just later?
or are there downsides like not having those bones grow because your then too old?
im obviously no expert, just curious how that works....

 

[needthebus]

if you take puberty blockers, and then decide to quit, do you experience normal puberty, just later?
or are there downsides like not having those bones grow because your then too old?
im obviously no expert, just curious how that works....

i don't know, but there are likely permanent effects

that's why people in the UK are probably so iffy. many of them are liberal. it seems like prejudice + science = UK new rules. There is some science to the reasoning, it's just that 9/10+ trans women at 18 will wish they had the puberty blockers and could pass

by pass, i dont even mean totally looking like a woman

i mean more like walking down the street without getting mean looks, not having biased people immediately treat you like shit. it's really hard to pass once those male.ratios develop. It's like, many men just have a different facial geometry, and for tran people who get puberty blockers and hormones, their faces mostly seem feminine. they still don't always pass, but it's not as obvious. for older trans people doing things later,it's rare they ever pass. it's only guys with really cute symmetrical faces and cutesy non-threatening features that can sometimes pass with facial feminization surgery. many trans women do not pass. @foreversleep made an excellent quality of life point, it's true

the reality is some straight men don't want kids, don't care if a woman is trans if she looks enough like a woman, and are cool with it. But for trans women who don't look that fem, their pool of potential partners, already small, gets smaller. I think this isn't as much of a problem for trans men because more people are interested in dating them, but I could be way off. I just seem to hear about more trans men being in relationships. i have no data on any of this and it could be bullshit, but it's my impression

 

[Namelesa]

i don't know, but there are likely permanent effects

that's why people in the UK are probably so iffy. many of them are liberal. it seems like prejudice + science = UK new rules. There is some science to the reasoning, it's just that 9/10+ trans women at 18 will wish they had the puberty blockers and could pass

by pass, i dont even mean totally looking like a woman

i mean more like walking down the street without getting mean looks, not having biased people immediately treat you like shit. it's really hard to pass once those male.ratios develop. It's like, many men just have a different facial geometry, and for tran people who get puberty blockers and hormones, their faces mostly seem feminine. they still don't always pass, but it's not as obvious. for older trans people doing things later,it's rare they ever pass. it's only guys with really cute symmetrical faces and cutesy non-threatening features that can sometimes pass with facial feminization surgery. many trans women do not pass. @foreversleep made an excellent quality of life point, it's true

the reality is some straight men don't want kids, don't care if a woman is trans if she looks enough like a woman, and are cool with it. But for trans women who don't look that fem, their pool of potential partners, already small, gets smaller. I think this isn't as much of a problem for trans men because more people are interested in dating them, but I could be way off. I just seem to hear about more trans men being in relationships. i have no data on any of this and it could be bullshit, but it's my impression

This is just me being lucky but I went through most of male puberty but when I have got hrt I have to gotten to pass as a cis woman for most people without facial feminization surgery. I have only had very few people question my gender.

From my perspective its been that trans women get more attention at least with hook ups and sexual attention as we are more sexualized than trans men. If a trans person wants to get a romantic partner tho I would suggest them to date other trans people as you have more in common and already understand each other so don't have to do as much explaining about yourself and less likely to cause each other dysphoria. Trans people are also less likely to care if you pass as cisgender and less likely to rejection or break up just cus you are trans. When I have wanted to be in a relationship with another trans person it was quite easily done, the problem was that I am too co-dependent and my fear of abandonment and other mental issues I have so they have both ended cus of those things.

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

Are suggesting that gender is not different from sex? I could be stupid and assuming things but if you are saying gender doesn't exist in terms of a concept made by society then you are wrong. if you are saying gender doesn't exist as a biological thing then I agree as the concept of gender is made by humans.

I'm saying that up until very recently, the terms were used interchangeably in common parlance. Then, in academia they decided to borrow the term "gender" to start referring to something else, and then somehow this usage seeped out into the mainstream and now everyone just takes it for granted. IMO all that exists is biological sex: you cannot feel like a man or a woman, you can only be one. Nor can you "feel" like the opposite sex, as by definition you can't feel something you've never experienced.

To take an analogy: I, as a 24-year-old, by definition cannot know what it's like to be a 40-year-old. I can say that I feel very strongly that I am older than I actually am, I can say that from childhood I just knew it in my bones that I was older and that my behaviour consistently indicated as much, but at the end of the day it's simply not possible for me to experience something that I have never actually experienced. (Note that none of this is to say that you can't have feelings about the fact of your biological sex, to the point of having distressing, debilitating dysphoria that causes immense suffering -- that much is certainly real).

If those physical effects are true, I would say they still shouldn't be banned for trans kids. Gender dysphoria is hell and natural puberty can be the most traumatic thing to happen to a trans child as they see their body turn into something more uncomfortable as time goes on. So many trans people are suffering greatly from having to go through natural puberty. Even with me being lucky with my natural puberty, I wish I could of taken them earlier in life as to not be so tall, I would rather go through the negative physical and emotional effects to get a body I will be more comfortable in. If I was more unlucky, I would 100% rather kill myself than continue being in a body I am uncomfortable in.

Right, but going on puberty blockers and then getting on HRT won't make you go through the puberty of the other sex; it's a complex bio-psycho-social process that can't be reduced to hormones. Even on the endocrine side of things, it's not just estrogen or testosterone involved in the process, but a whole host of other interacting hormones -- you can't artificially replicate that process. I recognize that I'm kind of being deliberately obtuse by pointing this out though; it's not the main thrust of your argument, and I do take seriously the point about at least suppressing the development of secondary sex characteristics like height. The thing with this though is that it's a bit of a mixed bag because some of those developments actually aid transition later in life. For example, bottom surgery for males tends to be easier when they have fully grown penile tissue, and females can pass better as men if they've been allowed to reach their maximum height. In any case, the point is that puberty blockers followed by HRT doesn't turn girls into men and boys into women, but rather creates underdeveloped women and men.

That's a really good point. I don't get why then- in the report about puberty blockers that scientists claimed there was no clear benefit to mental health. It's obvious from what a lot of people have said here- that there are clear benefits. Less body dysmorpia possibly contributing to ideation, possibly leading to actual suicides.

Btw it's not just the UK changing their guidelines due to the lack of evidence of effectiveness, it's independent medical bodies in several different progressive, Western European nations, like Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, and France.

It's been an interesting learning curve for me. I ought to have done more research beforehand really. But, from what people have said, it really does seem to me like the puberty blockers in particular surely do aid a lot in giving a person time and having less intense body dysmorphia with possibly less side effects than I imagined. It does seem weird then that scientists are supposedly saying they bring no mental health benefits. Seems the opposite to me.

The thing is, gender dysphoria is often a symptom of a young person's mental distress, not the cause. So even if puberty blockers succeed at suppressing the development of distressing bodily changes, the underlying issues don't go away, hence why we wouldn't see any clear mental health benefit. It'd be like putting an anorexic on diet pills, then wondering why she's still unhappy with her body after losing more weight -- because her body was never the issue!

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

i encourage anyone entering this thread who genuinely cares about the topic and isnt here to parrot some transphobic talking point to read through this reddit post, it debunks every common transphobic argument (including against puberty blockers iirc) with loads of sources

@Alexei_Kirillov i encourage you especially to read it as it goes over puberty blockers as i said

I actually expressly did not include sources in my response because here's the thing: "debunking" pages, replete with various scientific sources, exist on both sides of the debate! For every study you link in favour of puberty blockers, I can link one against. This is to be expected, though, as it's an emerging field of research. And seeing as how I'm not a doctor, biologist, or really any kind of scientist, I am in no position to be able to assess the validity of these scientific claims.

I'm sure the body of literature will eventually tease out the (approximate) truth, but that's going to take probably at least another 5 years to a decade. I thus have to take my cues from first principles: what do I believe about sex? What do I believe about children and adolescence? What do I know about the human body? etc. etc.

 

[NormallyNeurotic]

It's been an interesting learning curve for me. I ought to have done more research beforehand really. But, from what people have said, it really does seem to me like the puberty blockers in particular surely do aid a lot in giving a person time and having less intense body dysmorphia with possibly less side effects than I imagined. It does seem weird then that scientists are supposedly saying they bring no mental health benefits. Seems the opposite to me.

That's another point. There are plenty of expensive studies these people are funding (many actually harmful, like the ones trying to find out how to cure autism, as there is a huge overlap in eugenicists and transphobes), so why not fund a study on puberty blockers? There actually was a recent study done that involved minors taking puberty blockers and HRT, and it showed some great results, but I don't remember if it was the USA... and also, yeah, it was just ONE STUDY. But I might be able to find the link if y'all want?

It's like how these people don't know casuation versus correlation and say that "we need to cure trans people because being trans makes them more likely to CTB as a kid." I wonder WHY...

 

[Namelesa]

I'm saying that up until very recently, the terms were used interchangeably in common parlance. Then, in academia they decided to borrow the term "gender" to start referring to something else, and then somehow this usage seeped out into the mainstream and now everyone just takes it for granted. IMO all that exists is biological sex: you cannot feel like a man or a woman, you can only be one. Nor can you "feel" like the opposite sex, as by definition you can't feel something you've never experienced.

To take an analogy: I, as a 24-year-old, by definition cannot know what it's like to be a 40-year-old. I can say that I feel very strongly that I am older than I actually am, I can say that from childhood I just knew it in my bones that I was older and that my behaviour consistently indicated as much, but at the end of the day it's simply not possible for me to experience something that I have never actually experienced. (Note that none of this is to say that you can't have feelings about the fact of your biological sex, to the point of having distressing, debilitating dysphoria that causes immense suffering -- that much is certainly real).


Right, but going on puberty blockers and then getting on HRT won't make you go through the puberty of the other sex; it's a complex bio-psycho-social process that can't be reduced to hormones. Even on the endocrine side of things, it's not just estrogen or testosterone involved in the process, but a whole host of other interacting hormones -- you can't artificially replicate that process. I recognize that I'm kind of being deliberately obtuse by pointing this out though; it's not the main thrust of your argument, and I do take seriously the point about at least suppressing the development of secondary sex characteristics like height. The thing with this though is that it's a bit of a mixed bag because some of those developments actually aid transition later in life. For example, bottom surgery for males tends to be easier when they have fully grown penile tissue, and females can pass better as men if they've been allowed to reach their maximum height. In any case, the point is that puberty blockers followed by HRT doesn't turn girls into men and boys into women, but rather creates underdeveloped women and men.

The thing is, gender dysphoria is often a symptom of a young person's mental distress, not the cause. So even if puberty blockers succeed at suppressing the development of distressing bodily changes, the underlying issues don't go away, hence why we wouldn't see any clear mental health benefit. It'd be like putting an anorexic on diet pills, then wondering why she's still unhappy with her body after losing more weight -- because her body was never the issue!

Obviously I don't know what it is like to feel like what life is like with a vulva but it terms of what roles, traits, transitional likes and dislikes and behaviour society has put onto each gender then I feel like I more belong with women than men. Society has made certain genders to more behave and like and dislike certain things and so I feel like a girl and not boy. I also feel really uncomfortable in a more masculine body and prefer to have and am comfortable in a more feminine body. Gender is a social construct and so people can feel more like one gender compared to the one they were forced to have on birth.

Hrt definitely makes you experience the puberty of the opposite sex. Estrogen has made me grow boobs, moved my fat around my body to make it more femininely shaped, become more emotional, some sexual changes, etc. The only thing that I can't experience is menstruation and pregnancy but I experience all the other symptoms of female puberty.

For me I don't need to grow more penile tissue as I don't plan to have bottom surgery to get a vulva. Most trans people don't have bottom surgery and that's a valid choice and their genitals they have shouldn't dictate their gender. Most trans men would also prefer to be shorter and not experience menstruation, breast growth and other effects from female puberty.

(Edit: where did you get the information that trans men don't grow as tall if they take puberty blockers to stop their natural puberty?)

My gender dysphoria was part of the cause for some of my mental distress. Being able to socially and medically transition has made me be able to be comfortable and love my body and had lessened my suicidal thoughts. This is not something compared to anorexia. I used to have that and in my experience losing weight and becoming underweight didn't lessen my mental pain as I just wanted to continue to lose more weight and was still guilty about eating food. Being underweight also has much more negative physical effects than medically transitioning. Hrt for me has lessened most of my dysphoria and allowed me to recover from anorexia and become more mentally healthy and less suicidal.

 

[coolgal82]

I'm saying that up until very recently, the terms were used interchangeably in common parlance. Then, in academia they decided to borrow the term "gender" to start referring to something else, and then somehow this usage seeped out into the mainstream and now everyone just takes it for granted. IMO all that exists is biological sex: you cannot feel like a man or a woman, you can only be one. Nor can you "feel" like the opposite sex, as by definition you can't feel something you've never experienced.

To take an analogy: I, as a 24-year-old, by definition cannot know what it's like to be a 40-year-old. I can say that I feel very strongly that I am older than I actually am, I can say that from childhood I just knew it in my bones that I was older and that my behaviour consistently indicated as much, but at the end of the day it's simply not possible for me to experience something that I have never actually experienced. (Note that none of this is to say that you can't have feelings about the fact of your biological sex, to the point of having distressing, debilitating dysphoria that causes immense suffering -- that much is certainly real).


Right, but going on puberty blockers and then getting on HRT won't make you go through the puberty of the other sex; it's a complex bio-psycho-social process that can't be reduced to hormones. Even on the endocrine side of things, it's not just estrogen or testosterone involved in the process, but a whole host of other interacting hormones -- you can't artificially replicate that process. I recognize that I'm kind of being deliberately obtuse by pointing this out though; it's not the main thrust of your argument, and I do take seriously the point about at least suppressing the development of secondary sex characteristics like height. The thing with this though is that it's a bit of a mixed bag because some of those developments actually aid transition later in life. For example, bottom surgery for males tends to be easier when they have fully grown penile tissue, and females can pass better as men if they've been allowed to reach their maximum height. In any case, the point is that puberty blockers followed by HRT doesn't turn girls into men and boys into women, but rather creates underdeveloped women and men.

Btw it's not just the UK changing their guidelines due to the lack of evidence of effectiveness, it's independent medical bodies in several different progressive, Western European nations, like Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, and France.


The thing is, gender dysphoria is often a symptom of a young person's mental distress, not the cause. So even if puberty blockers succeed at suppressing the development of distressing bodily changes, the underlying issues don't go away, hence why we wouldn't see any clear mental health benefit. It'd be like putting an anorexic on diet pills, then wondering why she's still unhappy with her body after losing more weight -- because her body was never the issue!

I actually expressly did not include sources in my response because here's the thing: "debunking" pages, replete with various scientific sources, exist on both sides of the debate! For every study you link in favour of puberty blockers, I can link one against. This is to be expected, though, as it's an emerging field of research. And seeing as how I'm not a doctor, biologist, or really any kind of scientist, I am in no position to be able to assess the validity of these scientific claims.

I'm sure the body of literature will eventually tease out the (approximate) truth, but that's going to take probably at least another 5 years to a decade. I thus have to take my cues from first principles: what do I believe about sex? What do I believe about children and adolescence? What do I know about the human body? etc. etc.

well send those studies then and i'll read them just as soon as you read mine. also you should read the other stuff in there too not just the puberty blocker stuff theres alot of good info which youd benefit from reading