Help Inert Gas Volume

[ArtVandelay]

What's the difference in purity between industrial and beverage grade nitrogen? And is beverage grade the same thing as food grade? The nitrogen that Cyberweld sells is 99.8% pure according to their Q&A.

 

[Jen Erik]

i'd like to cop some beverage grade.

Why 'beverage' grade?

 

[James28if]

"food and beverage" grade was the conversation i had today with the small time dealership. these guys had concerns with rental tank contamination getting into the wine. to CTB i guess i doesn't matter but i'd like to breathe in the good stuff if i had choice. the last thing i want to do is start coughing on some bad N2....

 

[TiredHorse]

Industrial grade should be purer than beverage grade: air contamination is unacceptable for welding, but who cares if there's a bit of air in your beer?

For whatever it's worth, the industrial grade stuff I have doesn't smell unpleasant.

 

[HelensNepenthe]

You shouldn't be able to smell N2. If you're smelling something then it isn't pure N2 or your cylinder is being funky.

 

[James28if]

for the task at hand .ctb. the N2 ball floats low on the dial. Correct?

 

[TiredHorse]

for the task at hand .ctb. the N2 ball floats low on the dial. Correct?

If those are liter per minute markings, then yes: 15LPM (or a touch more, if you have the gas to spare and want a bit of reassurance).

 

[James28if]

for the task at hand .ctb. the N2 ball floats low on the dial. Correct?

nowhere in the owners manual or on the piece itself does it specify LPM . or i'm missing something? i'll call the company tomorrow.

nowhere in the owners manual or on the piece itself does it specify LPM . or i'm missing something? i'll call the company tomorrow.

the Flow read is in SCFH standard cu ft per hour. i just saw it in manual.

 

[ArtVandelay]

For 15 LPM, the flow meter should read 32 SCFH. According to this converter

Cubic Feet Per Hour to Liters Per Minute | Kyle's Converter

Instantly Convert Cubic Feet Per Hour (cu ft/h) to Liters Per Minute (L/min) and Many More Flow Conversions Online. Cubic Feet Per Hour Conversion Charts. Many Other Conversions.

www.kylesconverter.com

 

[Hush Sweet Charlotte]

So I tried to get a nitrogen flow meter and turns out they don't exist anywhere in the UK! I'm stuck with the argon one but have little idea how to read it. I guess I'll just whack it up a bit and hope for the best but it doesn't instil much confidence. Also I assume you read from the middle of the floating ball but am unsure - does anyone know?

"food and beverage" grade was the conversation i had today with the small time dealership. these guys had concerns with rental tank contamination getting into the wine. to CTB i guess i doesn't matter but i'd like to breathe in the good stuff if i had choice. the last thing i want to do is start coughing on some bad N2....

What would rental tank contamination consist of - filling it previously with other gases? I'm not sure otherwise how a tank could be contaminated. When I got my latest tank someone had used oil in the valve outlet but I just wiped it off.

 

[Jen Erik]

What would rental tank contamination consist of - filling it previously with other gases?

Basically, an industrial tank shouldn't be refilled with 'beverage' grade gas for use in "wine making" (his cover story).

Industrial tanks may have minute amounts of dirt or debris in them that are acceptable in industrial purposes but not in beverage making.

 

[color_me_gone]

the Flow read is in SCFH standard cu ft per hour. i just saw it in manual.

For 15 LPM, the flow meter should read 32 SCFH. According to this converter

Glad to see that your reading will be further upscale @James28if .
It will be easier to read, and I don't trust the accuracy of meters which are operated close to their min/ max limits. 32 SCFH will be closer to mid-range of the pictured meter. That is good.

nitrogen flow meter and turns out they don't exist anywhere in the UK

Why does it have to be UK? The one James got looks high quality.

 

[Hush Sweet Charlotte]

Thanks Jen Erik. And I assume this doesn't matter for our purposes. The gas I have isn't food grade but described as 99.999% pure so I assume it's pretty much as good as you can possibly need. I would like to have got food grade but for no good reason other than psychological as I can't imagine wee bits of dirt would matter.

 

[color_me_gone]

In fact, I was considering the model 355 for myself.

 

[Hush Sweet Charlotte]

Glad to see that your reading will be further upscale @James28if .
It will be easier to read, and I don't trust the accuracy of meters which are operated close to their min/ max limits. 32 SCFH will be closer to mid-range of the pictured meter. That is good.


Why does it have to be UK? The one James got looks high quality.

I assumed the connection would be different with a US model? The UK one is 5/8" though it does look the same type as James posted..

 

[Jen Erik]

The gas I have isn't food grade but described as 99.999% pure so I assume it's pretty much as good as you can possibly need. I would like to have got food grade but for no good reason other than psychological as I can't imagine wee bits of dirt would matter.

Exactly. Any theoretical debris or dirt would be so tiny in size and as well as total amount that it will not have any effect on ctb. It's not like a steady stream of noticeable debris adulterating the nitrogen.

 

[color_me_gone]

the connection would be different with a US model

Woops, forgot about that! I'm pretty sure UK is different, even if looks are the same.
Here is a website which identifies bottled gas connectors for many different countries:
https://www.tedpella.com/company_html/Compressed_Gas_Cylinder_Outlet_Connections.htm
USA uses GCA580 for inert gases.
UK uses BS341 No. 3 for inert gases.
Not the same!

 

[Hush Sweet Charlotte]

Exactly. Any theoretical debris or dirt would be so tiny in size and as well as total amount that it will not have any effect on ctb. It's not like a steady stream of noticeable debris adulterating the nitrogen.

Thanks again :) That puts my endlessly worrywart mind at rest. I gained entry to the Exit forum but it turns out it's rubbish and I've had far more valuable help here. It's pretty inactive apart from one member who acts like a moderator and is telling folk food grade is best. Sort of put a worry in my mind.

 

[color_me_gone]

An adapter is available to convert CGA580 to BS341 No. 3. Here is a link:
http://catalog.superiorprod.com/item/european-fittings/british-style-fittings/ba-580-2
Here is a drawing:
http://catalog.superiorprod.com/Asset/BA-580.PDF
I cannot find a nitrogen flow regulator with the BS341 No.3 fitting.

 

[Hush Sweet Charlotte]

An adapter is available to convert CGA580 to BS341 No. 3. Here is a link:
http://catalog.superiorprod.com/item/european-fittings/british-style-fittings/ba-580-2
Here is a drawing:
http://catalog.superiorprod.com/Asset/BA-580.PDF
I cannot find a nitrogen flow regulator with the BS341 No.3 fitting.

Thanks so much for doing that research color me gone. It looks like it could be a really useful piece of kit. Probably better than blasting out a high flow rate of N2 without having much of a clue how much gas I'm using, although given I have a large tank that may still work! Thanks for your help.

 

[color_me_gone]

You can buy the adapter here online, not cheap $45 USD:
https://medicaltestingsolutions.com...daptor-cga-580-inerts-h-p-cylinder-connector/

 

[James28if]

according to the Harris Flow Meter Manual.... before you attach flow meter, momentarily open cylinder valve slightly and close it. the "cracking" of the valve will blow out contaminants that may have accumulated during storage or transportation. makes sense....we're ctb... we have to get it right. these little tips will hopefully help us. The SI "survival instinct" will still be a battle.

In fact, I was considering the model 355 for myself.

C_M_G.... its a solid N2 flow meter. i have to get a seperate barb to attach to the f meter for the 1/2 in hose. its got threads to attach the barb

 

[Jen Erik]

according to the Harris Flow Meter Manual....before you attach flow meter, momentarily open cylinder valve slightly and close it. the "cracking" of the valve will blow out contaminants that may have accumulated during storage or transportation. makes sense....we're ctb... we have to get it right. these little tips will hopefully help us.

Keep in mind that flow meter was designed for industrial use; the intended audience of that user manual is not people wishing to ctb.

Working with pressurized gas can be extremely dangerous and if the valve is 'cracked' incorrectly – for example, opened too much or for the tiniest fraction of a moment too long – the tank will launch off like a rocket. It could be disastrous for a person who has impaired mobility or muscle control.

The theoretical contaminants removed by cracking are so minute – they have no effect on ctb.

 

[color_me_gone]

extremely dangerous

Also, 2000 PSI jetstream can penetrate the skin and muscle.
Any small particle would be lodged deeply into your flesh.
If you do crack the valve, be absolutely sure it is directed away from you, especially away from your eyes.

 

[TiredHorse]

Not to be the crabby one, but cracking the valve on the tank --opening it slightly for just a moment, to allow a burst of gas to blow out any dust/dirt/crud-- is simply not that dangerous. Don't fling the valve open wide, of course, and let it get away from you, but that's not what "cracking the valve" is: open it just a crack, enough to hear it hiss. If it's O2 or a flammable gas, don't do it near an open source of flame, but for inert gas, it's no big whoop.

I've even been blasted by the stream with no more effect than to make me jump from surprise, and as anyone who has played with a sandblaster can tell you, any particle so small as might get stuck in the threads of a valve would do absolutely nothing: it doesn't have the mass to do more than sting.

 

[Jen Erik]

Not to be the crabby one, but cracking the valve on the tank --opening it slightly for just a moment, to allow a burst of gas to blow out any dust/dirt/crud-- is simply not that dangerous. Don't fling the valve open wide, of course, and let it get away from you, but that's not what "cracking the valve" is: open it just a crack, enough to hear it hiss. If it's O2 or a flammable gas, don't do it near an open source of flame, but for inert gas, it's no big whoop.

I've even been blasted by the stream with no more effect than to make me jump from surprise, and as anyone who has played with a sandblaster can tell you, any particle so small as might get stuck in the threads of a valve would do absolutely nothing: it doesn't have the mass to do more than sting.

I don't think you're crabby.

Perhaps the more pertinent question is: is cracking even necessary for ctb purposes?

 

[TiredHorse]

Perhaps the more pertinent question is: is cracking even necessary for ctb purposes?

That is, indeed, the pertinent question --to which I can reply only that I never bothered!

For me, cracking the valves is something I do when I'm first hooking up tanks to regulators after it's possible the valves may have gotten crud in them. Propane tanks when out camping, welding gas on a mobile job where the regulators were removed during transit, etc. After bringing the tank home from the store where I had it filled? I might if I remember, but I'm unlikely to remember.

 

[Hush Sweet Charlotte]

My second tank had oil in the valve outlet which I wasn't overly thrilled about. I cleared it out and cracked open the valve for a very brief second. Although given my limited mobility I now see that cracking open the valve may not have been the best idea. At least it didn't take off like a missile! I knew not to face anywhere near it but maybe I should have been a wee bit more cautious.

 

[Jen Erik]

My second tank had oil in the valve outlet which I wasn't overly thrilled about. I cleared it out and cracked open the valve for a very brief second. Although given my limited mobility I now see that cracking open the valve may not have been the best idea. At least it didn't take off like a missile! I knew not to face anywhere near it but maybe I should have been a wee bit more cautious.

I had you mind when this subject came up. I'm glad you're okay.