Venting I don't have gender-dysphoria but being a (low-value) man sucks

[İnilerim]

I have a question for the incels: what do you base your expertise in how women think and what they desire on, what makes you so confident in it that you would outright dismiss any contradictory propositions?

Maybe it's just me, but when I claim minimal to no interaction with a certain population group, I would be more than convinced of my own ignorance.

 

[warmsand]

i sympathize with your concerns wholeheartedly - though i'm a woman, i can't directly relate, but a lot of my life has been spent coming to terms with the fact that i'm not attractive. so some of what you've said here is relatable, not all.

i would advise to stay away from the incel terminology though, inceldom is very toxic and will only worsen your mental state.

i do have a few things i would like to say, though.

first, it's a hard pill to swallow, but its true: people care about physical appearance. i don't want to sit here and lecture you on how personality and hobbies can make you a better, more attractive person, because what everyone needs, first and foremost, are the looks to get their foot in the door like you said. i wish this wasn't the case. for as long as i remember i've wished that everyone was a grey blob and we formed connections based on personalities instead of looks. but that's just not how things are. for me, i've started hyperfocusing on improving my looks: going to the gym, eating right, doing my hair, makeup, washing my face, moisturizing, perfume, clothes. for men, i don't know how that would look, but if it is a real concern for you, there are ways to improve; know you're not entirely powerless. thinking that it's all hopeless is the key for falling further into despair.

however, there are some things you've gotten wrong. as some other commenters said, there are ugly people in relationships everywhere. who are they in relationships with? other ugly people. it's about understanding that you're not exempt from this phenomenon; who are the types of women you are after? and yes, i am aware many unattractive women overinflate their looks and reject men who are on the same physical attraction level as them, but reality is often different from what some patterns might suggest. all it takes is one.

and lastly, i'd like to say that not all women desire the "tall, masculine, well endowed" man. as a woman i genuinely couldn't care less if a man is tall (i'd totally be with someone 5'0), masculine, or is well endowed, lol. for me, it's more about face and personality. he could have a micropenis and i wouldn't care, genuinely! while it's hard to understand when you've been faced with such rejection and observed how vain people can be, there are people that truly, truly do not subscribe to that type of thinking. incel ideology tends to over generalize. society sucks, i agree with you there, but generalizations and saying "this is how everyone is, no exceptions" really only makes a person feel more hopeless. i know this forum is full of hopelessness but sometimes things are just plain... wrong. this is one of those times.

i'm not gonna tell you what to do. i'm telling you my opinion, and thats just it: an opinion. i know things can be tough for men, trust me. constantly thinking this way, though, is very painful, and i tell you that from personal experience. i hope that whatever decisions you make for yourself, you can one day feel better about yourself and find your place.

 

[ChildrensITV]

What you're describing sounds nothing like gender dysphoria, and most women don't have standards as high as you seem to think.

A relationship won't be any help with your self-esteem issues.

It's not about standards as high as I think. It's about standards as high as 60% of men think: https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brie...oung-men-are-single-most-young-women-are-not/

Statistics are proving that a growing number of men just don't meet women's standards anymore. It's not about what I think. It's about the data.

 

[brokensea]

I find this debate strange in my lot in life is worse than yours.

Society is cruel to people who are unattractive. Even growing up. Your peers can torture you when you're young. You don't have friends. People don't want to date you. There's no real deep fantasy of reasons why this is so. We live in a media based society that upholds beauty, advertises it, sells it, as something that will make us happier, more well liked, successful, have an easier time in life. If we just buy these shitty products and eat up this foolishness.

I've never dated anyone by their looks ever. The physical is meaningless. People are brainwashed and not deep enough to see that. It equally sucks. No one male or female society deems unattractive has an easier time in life. Until you live your life as the opposite gender or can just simply observe or know people of both genders and what they go through it's equally completely crappy and they get the same treatment. They get made fun of, used, thrown away, spend years alone. Some people don't. But many who suffer do.

This world is a sick sick place and what sense is there in pointing fingers and blame on one gender or another as if anyone doesn't experience the crap getting thrown at them by shallow tools. No one is special or privileged when it comes to the world treating you crappy cause of your appearance.

To find anyone capable of real love and who can even truly see you and who you are I've never found it. Love is fleeting and not something comprehended by most people. Real true genuine love that doesn't care what you look like, about your car, your money is nowhere to be found and we all starve for it. Starve for it till we die from it.

 

[borderline-feline]

It's not about standards as high as I think. It's about standards as high as 60% of men think: https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brie...oung-men-are-single-most-young-women-are-not/

Statistics are proving that a growing number of men just don't meet women's standards anymore. It's not about what I think. It's about the data.

More men being single doesn't mean that women have ridiculously high standards. The way you're representing the data is about what you think.

The standards that you're referring to aren't held by the majority of women, yet you're coming across as if you believe that those standards are universal. The average woman has standards that are just as reasonable as those of the average man.

Again, caring this much about the idea of being in a relationship, being this desperate for it, is something many women find pathetic. You don't need a girlfriend.

 

[boblong]

Woman in asian countries mostly follow traditional values . Maybe you can find a suitable girl that way?
Many passport bros found their love , maybe you can too.

 

[Disappointered]

Woman in asian countries mostly follow traditional values . Maybe you can find a suitable girl that way?
Many passport bros found their love , maybe you can too.

This is some practical, valid advice I've offered before. However, it's generally only available to white incels. Because "anti-racism" has worked really well.

i sympathize with your concerns wholeheartedly - though i'm a woman, i can't directly relate, but a lot of my life has been spent coming to terms with the fact that i'm not attractive. so some of what you've said here is relatable, not all.

i would advise to stay away from the incel terminology though, inceldom is very toxic and will only worsen your mental state.

i do have a few things i would like to say, though.

first, it's a hard pill to swallow, but its true: people care about physical appearance. i don't want to sit here and lecture you on how personality and hobbies can make you a better, more attractive person, because what everyone needs, first and foremost, are the looks to get their foot in the door like you said. i wish this wasn't the case. for as long as i remember i've wished that everyone was a grey blob and we formed connections based on personalities instead of looks. but that's just not how things are. for me, i've started hyperfocusing on improving my looks: going to the gym, eating right, doing my hair, makeup, washing my face, moisturizing, perfume, clothes. for men, i don't know how that would look, but if it is a real concern for you, there are ways to improve; know you're not entirely powerless. thinking that it's all hopeless is the key for falling further into despair.

however, there are some things you've gotten wrong. as some other commenters said, there are ugly people in relationships everywhere. who are they in relationships with? other ugly people. it's about understanding that you're not exempt from this phenomenon; who are the types of women you are after? and yes, i am aware many unattractive women overinflate their looks and reject men who are on the same physical attraction level as them, but reality is often different from what some patterns might suggest. all it takes is one.

and lastly, i'd like to say that not all women desire the "tall, masculine, well endowed" man. as a woman i genuinely couldn't care less if a man is tall (i'd totally be with someone 5'0), masculine, or is well endowed, lol. for me, it's more about face and personality. he could have a micropenis and i wouldn't care, genuinely! while it's hard to understand when you've been faced with such rejection and observed how vain people can be, there are people that truly, truly do not subscribe to that type of thinking. incel ideology tends to over generalize. society sucks, i agree with you there, but generalizations and saying "this is how everyone is, no exceptions" really only makes a person feel more hopeless. i know this forum is full of hopelessness but sometimes things are just plain... wrong. this is one of those times.

i'm not gonna tell you what to do. i'm telling you my opinion, and thats just it: an opinion. i know things can be tough for men, trust me. constantly thinking this way, though, is very painful, and i tell you that from personal experience. i hope that whatever decisions you make for yourself, you can one day feel better about yourself and find your place.

All it takes is one and there is more than one out there. But can you really say that the majority of women don't care about looks?

Women do think it's pathetic to be so obsessed and distressed by the inability to be validated by the conquest of an attractive female. Perhaps the male experience is much more brutal and absolute than the female experience. Certain things can rapidly become all-encompassing. Pass/Fail. Not very "romcom" to say the least.

I have a question for the incels: what do you base your expertise in how women think and what they desire on, what makes you so confident in it that you would outright dismiss any contradictory propositions?

Maybe it's just me, but when I claim minimal to no interaction with a certain population group, I would be more than convinced of my own ignorance.

Most of the time when contradictory positions are dismissed it's not outright and it includes research of some sort. Regarding minimal interaction, the manosphere leaders who talk about women have had more women as romantic/sexual partners than the large majority of the human population including most women who have never had a romantic/sexual interaction with another woman and have had fewer of those interactions with men than the manosphere leaders. I'm not defending the manosphere leaders (nor condemning them) but to be fair, if experience is what matters then they certainly have a lot of expertise in this area.

 

[Moonomyth]

It's not about standards as high as I think. It's about standards as high as 60% of men think: https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brie...oung-men-are-single-most-young-women-are-not/

Statistics are proving that a growing number of men just don't meet women's standards anymore. It's not about what I think. It's about the data.

You're making conclusions that the data doesn't support, and omitting elements the data does support but conflicts with the generalization of your claim.

It's not "60% of men think women's standards are too high," it's "60% of men in their 20s are single." Clicking through to the Pew article that includes this data, that figure drops dramatically within the next age bracket as only 25% of men aged 30-49 are single and that percentage stays consistent in all later categories.

You can certainly ask some questions about why there's such a huge difference between the 20s and the 30s and up, and the article tries to provide some possible answers, some of which are pretty benign like "Americans are marrying later on average" and "American women tend to marry slightly older men." If that's the case, the "impossible standard" is if you're slightly older than the woman, and your chief competition are people in their 30s.

I think the answer is clear: Institute Logan's Run rules for five years and eliminate the over-30s. Or narrow your claims a bit. Either works.

 

[strawberryjampan]

Men in this society are disposable tools, unless you are born with godly genetics or in a wealthy family, chances are you won't know what "love" is, normies gaslighting don't have effect anymore when you see the same patterns over and over year after year and decade after decade.

View attachment 106526

This is trite incel garbage. I am completely average looking with fine social skills and that has been enough to have normal dating experiences and "love". Reading posts like this are just insane to me.

 

[jdog2498]

Do only men CTB? Men outperform women in both homicides AND suicides! Is there anything were not better at lol? kek

 

[Moonomyth]

Do only men CTB? Men outperform women in both homicides AND suicides! Is there anything were not better at lol? kek

Apparently, getting into relationships in our 20s.

 

[jdog2498]

Apparently, getting into relationships in our 20s.

Yeah possibly. I heard a study that females have contributed more to our gene pool than males, so I don't know if it's a new thing. Though that study might be flawed. JP has been quoted saying something similar. Perhaps now we are just aware of the problem? I feel like men have always been better at death than women.

 

[Octavia]

Haha, that's rich coming from another suicide forum member. You need to stick to the discussion or shut the fuck up with your ridiculously placed mental illness insult in a place like this.

I didn't get personal so why did you? Do YOU need therapy? Do you need something so that you don't want to die? Or should you don't go there at all and receive a warning?

I was not really expecting a response after such a long time, but I guess that some people do hold grudges. I am actually in touch with therapists along with a psychiatrist, and while that I do commend their efforts in trying to help me, I do not believe that my depression is the type that can be cured.

But back to our topic. My point was that you should really talk to someone who is outside of your echo chambers, I have no idea where you got your incel rhetoric from. Maybe that such hierarchical systems apply to animals, but it would be highly uneducated to apply it to humans. In case you have not noticed, we are not peacocks.

You really don't seem to understand the difficulties of being a woman, it is disappointing how your sight does not go beyond the getting laid part. What about sexism, misogyny, wage gaps, and childhood trauma from getting sexually harassed by men twice your age? This is not a contest about which gender has it worst, but you are completely out of touch if you believe that women are privileged in society. And I don't even know what to say about the "rape being a reproductive trade-off" part. What, so being raped is part of the features of being a woman? Seriously?

 

[Dot]

Tbh threds lke ths wll alwys turn out 2 b xtremly triggrng bcse = alwys bcmes 'x gendr hs easr lfe tht y gendr' & thre wll b ppl wh/ rfuse 2 beleve th/ opposte & invald8 th/ othr sde in ordr 2 spport thr own claims

I.m.o = obvs tht OP nds sme empthy bcse thy r feelng pressre frm all sdes & cn apprci8 tht b-ing mle = oftn v dffclt & brngs it own unque challnges -- & @ th/ end of th/ dy mny ppl cme 2 SaSu fr spport -- slf cn undrstnd Y thy wnt 2 vent off thngs tht thy hve 2 xpernce & tht thy resent tht othr ppl r free frm

Bt jst bcse womn d/ nt xpernce thse sme challngs ds nt mean thr lves r easr -- & wll b honst tht readng thngs lke 'gynocentrsm brngs trade-offs fr r*pe' -- tht cn only b said b/ sme1 wh/ hs nt livd tht xpernce or wh/ hs nt needd 2 adjst thr dy-2-dy b-havrs in ordr 2 protct thmslves frm b-ing a victm of r*pe & sexul asslt -- tht = xtremly triggrng & shrt-sightd perspctve

If womn cn 'leav mre easly' than men thn thre wld nt b th/ numbrs of womn wh/ r trappd in DV stuatns bcse 1) thy r trma-bondd 2 tht persn or 2) thy r nt financlly indepndnt enuf 2 escpe amng othr reasns

= cmpletly undrstndble whn sme1 sys 'sciety pts s/ mch pressre on slf as mn or womn tht = dffclt 2 cope wth' bt makng out tht th/ othr sde hs thngs 'easr' wll only evr cre8 conflct bcse tbf sciety = a bitch 2 evry1

Ppl shld nt need 2 dwn-ply othr ppls xpernces 2 illustr8 hw thr own lfe = diffclt

 

[kindalone]

This is trite incel garbage. I am completely average looking with fine social skills and that has been enough to have normal dating experiences and "love". Reading posts like this are just insane to me.

Mental illness, man. It manifests differently in all of us. Incels seems to be obsessed with not getting women and the reasons they can't. Others like I think nobody would hire me because there are a bunch of shortcomings that would make an employer reluctant to hire me. Meanwhile, somebody who has less in all of these aspects probably has a wife, job, kids and everything. Some are just better at working with what they have. It's all mental for most of us. But the mental is sometimes the hardest to overcome.

 

[katara]

In my experience, below average-to-average women's issues are way different. They still get approached by men but there is a higher tendency for those men to want flings and treat them badly. Not to say there aren't men who want longterm relationships with them, cuz there are. What do you think?

What men consider below-average is below what women consider below-average. So an average man to a woman is a 6.5. An average woman to a man is like a 4, which makes dating harder. And men have to wake up, shower and hope the bones in their face are in the right place, where, nobody cares if women use makeup, hair-extensions, etc. I think it's more acceptable for a woman to wear extensions than for a man to wear a toupé, but men are more likely to bald than women. You see how men are just born to lose?

I feel for women who pick a guy who they think is an upstanding guy who then ditches them. Deadbeat dads suck.

I think I am butthurt cuz I am an ugly loser male, whereas if I were a woman, being a "loser" isn't really a thing. Men don't care how much a woman earns, if she isn't of high social status (unless she is like promiscuous or something). Men don't care if a woman has no friends or is a nerd. Men don't care if a woman is a waitress or doesn't have a car. There is just so many ways a man can lose. If a woman passes a man's LOOKS-TEST, he accepts her. Even if a man passes a woman's LOOKS-TEST, there are other tests: money, is her a loser, does he own a house, etc.

I'm just saddened by it, tbh.



Yes. As angry as I am about how my life turned out, my ongoing depression, how dating and love are, etc, I don't have anything against the men and women who post here. All of us deserve better than life has given us!

responding to this just so i can find it later, there's a lot of this misogynistic shit all over this site and it's weird how mods will censor really mild stuff but meanwhile allow people like this. But ya I see why so many men on here talk about gender dyphoria is because none of you have one fucking clue what it's like to be a woman who isn't in the top 10% on onlyfans or wherever you guys hang out online.