How trapped do you feel? What do you do with that?

[wren-briar]

I have a gun but is my last resort for when the NCMEC Google slaves came

"NCMEC Google slaves"???

 

[lastexit717@proton.]

"NCMEC Google slaves"???

glad you dont know them

 

[affirmatice]

extremely trapped. Feeling trapped is what ultimately drives people to suicide in my non-expert opinion.

There are people who have gone through severe depression but would never consider suicide. Likewise people who have committed suicide who have never been depressed (common examples being people who have just been caught/accused of some major crime).

I don't want to CTB. If there was any way to make myself feel better, even if it took a monstrous amount of effort. I would gladly pursue it. Only after 5 years of struggle and looking into the future to see more hopelessness, did suicide enter my mind.

 

[PhDone]

extremely trapped. Feeling trapped is what ultimately drives people to suicide in my non-expert opinion.

There are people who have gone through severe depression but would never consider suicide. Likewise people who have committed suicide who have never been depressed (common examples being people who have just been caught/accused of some major crime).

I don't want to CTB. If there was any way to make myself feel better, even if it took a monstrous amount of effort. I would gladly pursue it. Only after 5 years of struggle and looking into the future to see more hopelessness, did suicide enter my mind.

Thats a great perspective. I would agree re the trapped feeling fuelling the ctb. Because we find there is no other option. I would give anything for my illness to be one that offers me a fight. Some damn thing to chase. Having nothing to chase, no fight, no course of action to step towards healing, that is hopelessness right there. Something, anything, as you say even if it took a monstrous amount of effort, would give a purpose each day towards getting out of this shit. That is called having agency, without that we are passive to the suffering. Sat here with no chance of reprieve. It then becomes a conscious decision to act.

I watched a lecture series on the philosophy of death and ctb this week. They talked about the unknown possibilities lost if you ctb. Could you heal and find positive life experience again? A valid point, potentially the most crucial one. How do we know, and are we in a good enough headspace to assess this if we are depressed? So when do you know? For many of us we have been told ("there is no cure or treatment") or have tried everything. The probabilities starting to stack up in favour of continued suffering definitely is the final lock to the cage of 'trapped'.

 

[affirmatice]

Thats a great perspective. I would agree re the trapped feeling fuelling the ctb. Because we find there is no other option. I would give anything for my illness to be one that offers me a fight. Some damn thing to chase. Having nothing to chase, no fight, no course of action to step towards healing, that is hopelessness right there. Something, anything, as you say even if it took a monstrous amount of effort, would give a purpose each day towards getting out of this shit. That is called having agency, without that we are passive to the suffering. Sat here with no chance of reprieve. It then becomes a conscious decision to act.

I watched a lecture series on the philosophy of death and ctb this week. They talked about the unknown possibilities lost if you ctb. Could you heal and find positive life experience again? A valid point, potentially the most crucial one. How do we know, and are we in a good enough headspace to assess this if we are depressed? So when do you know? For many of us we have been told ("there is no cure or treatment") or have tried everything. The probabilities starting to stack up in favour of continued suffering definitely is the final lock to the cage of 'trapped'.

Same here. Likewise my physical ailments are the main, actually only, reason I consider this.

I'm someone who always wants to be control of his own life, and do everything I can to improve. When faced with a very difficult physical situation, completely out of my control, I can't really find a way to cope.

A few years ago I suffered from debilitating social anxiety. I literally got painfully anxious even just walking around public. That made me feel quite depressed.

Ultimately, I felt hopeful though. Even after repeatedly failing social attempts and seeing no improvement. Because I knew it was something that could be overcome. There was no actual limitation, it was all in my mind. And I did, a few years later I have no anxiety at all talking to people or doing things in public.

Quite ironic how after I won that struggle. I couldn't even enjoy it because of the physical limitations that have constantly dragged me down

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

Thats a great perspective. I would agree re the trapped feeling fuelling the ctb. Because we find there is no other option. I would give anything for my illness to be one that offers me a fight. Some damn thing to chase. Having nothing to chase, no fight, no course of action to step towards healing, that is hopelessness right there. Something, anything, as you say even if it took a monstrous amount of effort, would give a purpose each day towards getting out of this shit. That is called having agency, without that we are passive to the suffering. Sat here with no chance of reprieve. It then becomes a conscious decision to act.

I watched a lecture series on the philosophy of death and ctb this week. They talked about the unknown possibilities lost if you ctb. Could you heal and find positive life experience again? A valid point, potentially the most crucial one. How do we know, and are we in a good enough headspace to assess this if we are depressed? So when do you know? For many of us we have been told ("there is no cure or treatment") or have tried everything. The probabilities starting to stack up in favour of continued suffering definitely is the final lock to the cage of 'trapped'.

Was it the Yale lecture series by chance? I watched those a while back, really enjoyed it.

Anyway this argument has never been convincing to me because I believe you experience nothing after death, and thus it makes no sense to speak of the "future possibilities" of a nonentity, no more than we can speak of the future of someone who hasn't been born yet. IMO you lose nothing in death, whereas you always risk the possibility of more suffering/loss in life.

Love your username btw.

 

[willow115]

Unbearably trapped. I try hanging but I fear becoming vegetative instead of dead. I know I'll find a way but Jesus Christ.

 

[PhDone]

Was it the Yale lecture series by chance? I watched those a while back, really enjoyed it.

Anyway this argument has never been convincing to me because I believe you experience nothing after death, and thus it makes no sense to speak of the "future possibilities" of a nonentity, no more than we can speak of the future of someone who hasn't been born yet. IMO you lose nothing in death, whereas you always risk the possibility of more suffering/loss in life.

Love your username btw.

Yes, the Yale lecture series. So good. Really well articulated challenges to the normative conditioned opinions re death and ctb. Helped me structure my own thoughts and rebuttals. And probably reinforce my perspective on my own ctb considerations.

I liked his example of door 1: 99% likelihood of going thro torture but 1% possibility of a tropical holiday; door 2: 100% certainty of sleep. Should you choose door 1 just because there is an inherent value to the tropical holiday …and that any chance of a holiday should be prioritised over any other consideration? And the question of rationality and morality around this decision.

Lol, thanks re the name. Yeah why work your way up to completing the most advanced academic qualifications to then have life throw you down a hill. Yay, go me in the life investment front

 

[RosebyAnyName]

Honestly, I don't feel "trapped." Rather, I feel "excluded" from happiness. Like there's an awesome party going on indoors but I'm stuck standing outside, and I'm not allowed in because I don't know how to go in, don't have enough money, don't have the confidence I wouldn't make a fool of myself, etc. I'm alive, I should be grateful, but all of my goals are out of reach, I will always be an outsider, and I will never feel confident enough to "deserve" any of my dreams.

As for what I do with it, I try to distract myself and try to redirect to other things, like different hobbies or drugs, but it only works to varying levels of success.

 

[BlackEyedDog]

I would get through each day only by the mercy of sleep for which i have to take meds. had to increase the dose because lately my mind is scrambled and on overdrive, waking me up throughout the night with racing thoughts revolving around hopelessness and ctb. Which often includes physical manifestations of anxiety (numbness, tingling, breath). i just desperately try to fall back asleep. so i've started to feel trapped even when i sleep. i know i can't keep living like this.

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

Yes, the Yale lecture series. So good. Really well articulated challenges to the normative conditioned opinions re death and ctb. Helped me structure my own thoughts and rebuttals. And probably reinforce my perspective on my own ctb considerations.

I liked his example of door 1: 99% likelihood of going thro torture but 1% possibility of a tropical holiday; door 2: 100% certainty of sleep. Should you choose door 1 just because there is an inherent value to the tropical holiday …and that any chance of a holiday should be prioritised over any other consideration? And the question of rationality and morality around this decision.

I also loved his rebuttal to the whole "life is a gift" platitude (though I'm blanking on the specifics rn).

Lol, thanks re the name. Yeah why work your way up to completing the most advanced academic qualifications to then have life throw you down a hill. Yay, go me in the life investment front

Can I ask how you manage finances while living with a chronic illness?

 

[PhDone]

I would get through each day only by the mercy of sleep for which i have to take meds. had to increase the dose because lately my mind is scrambled and on overdrive, waking me up throughout the night with racing thoughts revolving around hopelessness and ctb. Which often includes physical manifestations of anxiety (numbness, tingling, breath). i just desperately try to fall back asleep. so i've started to feel trapped even when i sleep. i know i can't keep living like this.

Omg i hear you

I also loved his rebuttal to the whole "life is a gift" platitude (though I'm blanking on the specifics rn).


Can I ask how you manage finances while living with a chronic illness?

Was it around the container theory discussion? …that the neutral container said its purely about life having value and theres no need to consider whats in the container. Where modest container theory says there must be consideration of the relative goodness or badness. He proposed that intrinsic life value should be a baseline offset on the positive side of the equation.

Oh, I am definitely struggling with the finances. Am just in the throes of fully losing my job. Was on vastly reduced hours for the last year. Now only option is some kind of claim. But I'm not long resident to where I'm based and my illness is not well supported by traditional evidence (yet to be blood-based markers for example, despite research showing catastrophic issues in the cells and blood). How to really f up life, move somewhere and get a poorly understood and supported illness.

 

[Leiot]

It's funny - I don't feel 'trapped' as much as I feel like I don't belong here. Like when I go out among people I'm not quite in phase with the rest of the world. Like I'm looking in from outside. I don't think other people can quite see me, and they certainly can't see me for what I am. I feel somewhat disconnected from everyone else.

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

Was it around the container theory discussion? …that the neutral container said its purely about life having value and theres no need to consider whats in the container. Where modest container theory says there must be consideration of the relative goodness or badness. He proposed that intrinsic life value should be a baseline offset on the positive side of the equation.

Went back and dug it up, it was this part, with the pie analogy:

"And so the argument might then go, look, either God gave us life, or nature gave us life, or our parents gave us life. Whatever it was, we owe a debt of gratitude for this wonderful gift. And as such, how do you repay the debt? You repay the debt by keeping the gift. If you kill yourself, you're rejecting the gift. That's being ungrateful, and ingratitude is immoral. It's wrong. And that's why suicide is wrong. That's the second quick and dirty argument.

Perhaps it won't surprise you that I don't find this second argument persuasive either. Not because I'm skeptical about debts of gratitude, but I want us to pay attention to what exactly obligations of gratitude require us to do. In particular, it's important to bear in mind that you owe the person who gives you a gift something only when what he's giving you, or she's giving you, is a gift. Imagine that somebody, I'll call him The Bully, gives you a pie and says, "Eat it." But it's not an apple pie. It's not a cherry pie. It's some gross, disgusting, slime pie, some rotting slime pie, and he cuts out a big piece and he says, "Eat it." Do you owe this person, as a debt of gratitude, out of gratitude, do you owe him the obligation to eat the pie and continue eating the pie? That would seem like a rather odd thing to claim. This guy is indeed, as I've named him, just a bully."

Oh, I am definitely struggling with the finances. Am just in the throes of fully losing my job. Was on vastly reduced hours for the last year. Now only option is some kind of claim. But I'm not long resident to where I'm based and my illness is not well supported by traditional evidence (yet to be blood-based markers for example, despite research showing catastrophic issues in the cells and blood). How to really f up life, move somewhere and get a poorly understood and supported illness.

Geez, sorry to hear that. I quit my job back in April and have been living off savings ever since. I don't feel like I have enough battery to go back to work but I'm kind of being forced to now; I'm trying to claim benefits but I wonder what is even the point of continuing living if I just have to mooch off the state (presuming they'll even allow me) and beg for scraps.

Have you heard of Vlad Vexler? He's a political philosophy YouTuber who has ME.

 

[banger12]

So trapped that I can't do anything about how trapped I feel or even acknowledge it. Don't have the means to CTB. It's hard to afford and attain said means, especially without family noticing. And I had to postpone my CTB until next year so I could pay for my cats surgery anyway. Can't express how I feel to anyone irl cuz I'd be punished and my CTB prevented. I hate it.

 

[PhDone]

Went back and dug it up, it was this part, with the pie analogy:

"And so the argument might then go, look, either God gave us life, or nature gave us life, or our parents gave us life. Whatever it was, we owe a debt of gratitude for this wonderful gift. And as such, how do you repay the debt? You repay the debt by keeping the gift. If you kill yourself, you're rejecting the gift. That's being ungrateful, and ingratitude is immoral. It's wrong. And that's why suicide is wrong. That's the second quick and dirty argument.

Perhaps it won't surprise you that I don't find this second argument persuasive either. Not because I'm skeptical about debts of gratitude, but I want us to pay attention to what exactly obligations of gratitude require us to do. In particular, it's important to bear in mind that you owe the person who gives you a gift something only when what he's giving you, or she's giving you, is a gift. Imagine that somebody, I'll call him The Bully, gives you a pie and says, "Eat it." But it's not an apple pie. It's not a cherry pie. It's some gross, disgusting, slime pie, some rotting slime pie, and he cuts out a big piece and he says, "Eat it." Do you owe this person, as a debt of gratitude, out of gratitude, do you owe him the obligation to eat the pie and continue eating the pie? That would seem like a rather odd thing to claim. This guy is indeed, as I've named him, just a bully."

Oh yep, great analogy isnt it. There is such a moral imposition onto people suggesting they dont have the right to make decisions about their lives, because their lives are gifts, from God/nature/parents.

Geez, sorry to hear that. I quit my job back in April and have been living off savings ever since. I don't feel like I have enough battery to go back to work but I'm kind of being forced to now; I'm trying to claim benefits but I wonder what is even the point of continuing living if I just have to mooch off the state (presuming they'll even allow me) and beg for scraps.

Jeez, very similar thinking to me. My biggest values are making a difference and endeavour. How the hell do you do either confined to home. State support is so needed for people, but I find it hard to swallow being sat not contributing or earning it. I abs hate being unable to work. Hate it.

Have you heard of Vlad Vexler? He's a political philosophy YouTuber who has ME.

Oh no, I havent. Thanks for that tip. Will check him out. Great!

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

Oh yep, great analogy isnt it. There is such a moral imposition onto people suggesting they dont have the right to make decisions about their lives, because their lives are gifts, from God/nature/parents.

It also completely fails to acknowledge that gifts typically aren't supposed to come with burdens, as all lives do, regardless of quality of life; you must feed yourself/drink water/sleep/etc. (at least if you want to avoid suffering). These things require energy and effort. If someone "gifted" me with something that required this much upkeep, I'd be pissed.

Jeez, very similar thinking to me. My biggest values are making a difference and endeavour. How the hell do you do either confined to home. State support is so needed for people, but I find it hard to swallow being sat not contributing or earning it. I abs hate being unable to work. Hate it.

Same! The reason I hesitated for so long to even apply for benefits was because I felt I didn't deserve it. I've always been very independent, and a big part of that was working and saving up. It feels horrendous to be constantly taking away from my bank account without adding to it in equal or greater measure -- yet at the same time, to feel hindered from doing anything to rectify that situation.

Oh no, I havent. Thanks for that tip. Will check him out. Great!

He has multiple different channels, the one I watch most frequently is his long-form content one, but he has one specifically about ME.

 

[PhDone]

It also completely fails to acknowledge that gifts typically aren't supposed to come with burdens, as all lives do, regardless of quality of life; you must feed yourself/drink water/sleep/etc. (at least if you want to avoid suffering). These things require energy and effort. If someone "gifted" me with something that required this much upkeep, I'd be pissed.


Same! The reason I hesitated for so long to even apply for benefits was because I felt I didn't deserve it. I've always been very independent, and a big part of that was working and saving up. It feels horrendous to be constantly taking away from my bank account without adding to it in equal or greater measure -- yet at the same time, to feel hindered from doing anything to rectify that situation.


He has multiple different channels, the one I watch most frequently is his long-form content one, but he has one specifically about ME.

Thanks so much for this. Great to share chat with someone thinking and experiencing similar.

 

[restingplace]

We all know ctb is a tough gig, most of us here are so suffering we just want out so desperately. I feel so goddam trapped every day. Keep looking at the eventuality of ctb, like this looming thing. Know I have no other choice, well outside of languishing in terror and disfunction every day forever. What the hell do you do to handle this level of feeling trapped whilst we navigate stepping towards ctb? Researching and planning it, letters etc helps for me. But what else? How do we sit in this space between decision and action. It feels unbearable.

I feel trapped by the prospect of having to live life if that makes any sense? Knowing I have to continue this cycle that doesn't bring me much happiness just isint the way I want to exist

 

[PhDone]

I feel trapped by the prospect of having to live life if that makes any sense? Knowing I have to continue this cycle that doesn't bring me much happiness just isint the way I want to exist

Yep for sure it makes sense. We are forced to face life. Seems sensible if all is going well. All the platitudes even make sense for the normal challenges people face, like the "you grow by climbing mountains" stuff. And sure, you most often do at that level. But when life gets so heavy you are in the underbelly its a very different world where the platitudes dont apply. We're trapped in being made to keep facing life. I'm not sure why. I dont want to live in the condition i am. Why am i expected to?…coz we dont know the greater meaning of it ???? Coz we fear leaving, hurting others..??

Absolutely we shouldnt just take it for granted opting out, but living in a trap is torture.

 

[suffering_mo]

Feel completely and totally trapped! Trapped in my physical/neurological pain and suffering with no treatment or hope for recovery. Feel trapped to stay in this life to avoid hurting my family most especially. Feel trapped with no truly peaceful or guaranteed way out. I feel like I am trapped in a cage, watching everyone else around me live and enjoy life, with the life I want to get back to, but cannot. It all adds to my already immense suffering and makes me feel even more in hell.

 

[PhDone]

Feel completely and totally trapped! Trapped in my physical/neurological pain and suffering with no treatment or hope for recovery. Feel trapped to stay in this life to avoid hurting my family most especially. Feel trapped with no truly peaceful or guaranteed way out. I feel like I am trapped in a cage, watching everyone else around me live and enjoy life, with the life I want to get back to, but cannot. It all adds to my already immense suffering and makes me feel even more in hell.

This seriously summarises it. There are traps upon traps. And the last bit, being in the cage watching others enjoy the life I want to get back to - it is absolute torture. I actually think its the biggest factor of all for me. I cant bear to keep being beaten up day after day seeing people just living happily. It rips my heart out in every minute of the day. Some people seem to find a way to be ok with a minimal life, I honestly know I cant.