Venting How Are Sub4s With Male Faces Supposed To Survive?

[DesireDeath]

Extreme job discrimination: Most places won't hire you unless there's a huge shortage and the working conditions are poor and pay is low enough that they are willing to hire anyone. Even then they will be happy to fire you for no reason after some time, due to your coworkers disliking you, which they will due to your looks. Remote jobs are impossible to get these days due to requiring high level of skills and experience. People in the workplace will treat you like trash, ignoring and avoiding you, giving you negative looks and making fun of you and because it's the majority and you have no way of fighting back without getting fired, this creates a hostile work environment affecting your performance so you get fired anyway.

No chance at friendship: People absolutely do not want to interact with you and won't include you in anything. It doesn't matter where you try to socialize, what hobbies you have, whether you are interesting, charming, witty, or kind. Your personality doesn't matter because you are too ugly to be a part of any group or accepted anywhere. Perhaps there's a tiny exception for childhood friends if they haven't abandoned you already, which they will in most cases as soon as your face turns sub4.

No dating/sex: Even talking about these things or talking to the opposite sex platonically to test the waters is more than enough to get you labelled as a creep and villainized by anyone and get kicked out of your job, if you have one. You can get kicked out of public places or end up being charged with sexual harassment if you ever try chatting up women as well.

Gaslighting when describing legitimate discrimination and persecution: They will turn it on you, it must be your personality or social skills or something, never mind the fact an average or attractive person acts the exact same way and still gets treated normally and included and never get looks of disgust from strangers for walking around. Every group in modern society gets protection people who are LGBTQ+, women, those with disabilities, minorities, but if you are ugly then you are the problem and undeserving of legal or social protection from extreme mistreatment. Most of these people know what they are doing and want to continue torturing and using ugly people as a punching bag or they are unaware because of their privilege and never take anything an ugly person says seriously because of lookism.

If you kill yourself it's because of mental illness rather than societal persecution, if anyone with a sub4 male face did anything illegal it's because they are a bad person rather than due to societal persecution. They are willing to make excuses for attractive people and all kinds of protected groups, but they don't care enough to even consider us.

It's so over for us, there's no hope and we can't even die peacefully. People are so cruel and it's somehow our fault for looking sub4 even though we never chose to.

 

[ChildrensITV]

Nothing in this post is aimed at the women or men who post here, but to normies!

We're at the point where a sub4 male's life is, at best, pointless. At worst, something like an open-air workcamp.

What are you working for? So you can pay bills? And spend evenings and weekends recovering from the week? What are you working towards? No girlfriend or family, that's for sure.

Try to meet a girl at a nightclub? - They don't want to talk to you cuz it's Girls Night, except if you're goodlooking.
Approach a girl at the gym? - End up as a creep on Tiktok if you're not what she thinks she's worth.
Meet a girl at an evening class - "Who is the creepy guy who keeps trying to make smalltalk with us?"
Try online-dating - Even if you customize your messages, women would prefer a night in with a movie and their dog than give you a chance. Hell. They would prefer self-immolation than speak to your chinless or manlet ass.

They can't help what they are attracted to. It's just sad for a growing number of men. We're shit out of luck. But the worst part is, we will be BLAMED for it:

- "You get rejected you cuz it's clear that you're toxic". Goodlooking, high-status abusive guys seem to fly under the radar.
- If you talk about the difficulties men face in dating: "Maybe you need therapy, sweaty? Women are literally people. How dare you want to treat a woman lovingly for life. Entitlement much?"
- "Maybe you just want 10/10 hotties? That has to be it. It can't be that dating is hard for men today".

We're at the point in human history where most men are totally surplus to mankind. We should allow men access to euthanasia. It might make for a happier population all-round: Fewer forever-alone men, and fewer undesirable men to make women feel uncomfortable.

Everyone is entitled to date whoever they want. It's just that, those of us men who are unwanted really have no reason to be here.

 

[locked*n*loaded]

What does Sub4 mean?

 

[Citruscine]

What does Sub4 mean?

I think it means being less than a 4 out of 10 in terms of physical attractiveness, but I'm not 100% sure

 

[locked*n*loaded]

I think it means being less than a 4 out of 10 in terms of physical attractiveness, but I'm not 100% sure

Thanks. That makes sense. Sub meaning less than or below.

 

[man_in_red:)]

I honestly don't think sub 4 males can survive in such a hostile environment, death is mercy for them.

 

[DesireDeath]

Nothing in this post is aimed at the women or men who post here, but to normies!

We're at the point where a sub4 male's life is, at best, pointless. At worst, something like an open-air workcamp.

What are you working for? So you can pay bills? And spend evenings and weekends recovering from the week? What are you working towards? No girlfriend or family, that's for sure.

Try to meet a girl at a nightclub? - They don't want to talk to you cuz it's Girls Night, except if you're goodlooking.
Approach a girl at the gym? - End up as a creep on Tiktok if you're not what she thinks she's worth.
Meet a girl at an evening class - "Who is the creepy guy who keeps trying to make smalltalk with us?"
Try online-dating - Even if you customize your messages, women would prefer a night in with a movie and their dog than give you a chance. Hell. They would prefer self-immolation than speak to your chinless or manlet ass.

They can't help what they are attracted to. It's just sad for a growing number of men. We're shit out of luck. But the worst part is, we will be BLAMED for it:

- "You get rejected you cuz it's clear that you're toxic". Goodlooking, high-status abusive guys seem to fly under the radar.
- If you talk about the difficulties men face in dating: "Maybe you need therapy, sweaty? Women are literally people. How dare you want to treat a woman lovingly for life. Entitlement much?"
- "Maybe you just want 10/10 hotties? That has to be it. It can't be that dating is hard for men today".

We're at the point in human history where most men are totally surplus to mankind. We should allow men access to euthanasia. It might make for a happier population all-round: Fewer forever-alone men, and fewer undesirable men to make women feel uncomfortable.

Everyone is entitled to date whoever they want. It's just that, those of us men who are unwanted really have no reason to be here.

It's much worse than getting women, you will be discriminated against and bullied in every aspect of your life. There's a societal caste system and you are the lowest of the low. When it comes to jobs any woman can complain against you and turn the group against you and get you fired. You have no right to talk to women even if it's necessary for the job, people won't tolerate you, if you make minor mistakes people will yell at you and treat you harshly, while overlooking things good-looking or average people do. You can't have friends, you will only be used as a punching bag or a foolish jester and avoided or bullied. You can't walk down the street without people staring at you in disgust or contempt and you can't interact with customer service face to face without them being cold or rude. It's extremely over for sub4's in all aspects of life. Only those who are sub4 with female faces have a chance at life.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Only those who are sub4 with female faces have a chance at life.

I do want to start by saying I feel bad for you. I'm not going to try and undermine what you're feeling by saying looks aren't important. Unfortunately- this world is superficial and cruel...

Still- how do you know how 'ugly' women have it better in life? Perhaps I have my own bias but it feels to me like looks seem more important in women rather than men. ALL of the same arguments you have applied to yourself go for women also. Women can be as thick as shit- or- utter bitches but that's forgiven if they are pretty. I doubt many even have the confidence to go to gyms or bars- they likely avoid men all together. They tend to get ostracised by men AND women. Not saying women have it worse- I just think it's shit for anyone who feels ugly.

I can't blame you for this but do you think you have built up a resentment towards women? I'm saying it because to some extent- I think I sometimes have towards men. I guess it's kind of natural. A defence mechanism almost. If you feel like someone is going to make you feel so much worse about yourself- you're likely to start disliking them.

I know it's just one more thing to worry about but I can't see how it would ever help in a relationship though- any feeling of resentment or- the whole- you have it so much better than me type thing. Just from personal experience- that even causes problems in friendships.

Honestly, I've resigned myself to a single life. If there truly is no chance of forming relationships, I hope you are able to make peace with this sort of life too. I guess it depends on you but I honestly can't say I'm jealous of couples- it just looks like a whole load of compromising and walking on eggshells not to upset one another. I don't know what to say about careers- I think it's just SO difficult for everyone right now. Looks likely do play a big part in customer facing roles but are there other jobs you want to do and could get skilled up in?

I guess maybe part of the problem is wanting to be a part of society but feeling rejected. I have social anxiety and I'm a natural loner really- so- I tend to avoid people where I can. Still- it's got to feel awful if you want to be a part of something but are discriminated against. I'm sorry.

I do wish you all the best. I hope you can realise some of your VR dreams.

 

[Pluto]

It's an awful situation and makes perfect sense to feel utterly despondent when near the bottom of a societal hierarchy. I've lived my life this way and it feels like it's been an exercise in putting a massive effort, yet ending up with the most miserable of crumbs to show for it. It feels like silent screams of injustice that are never heard because I don't matter. So I do understand the situation.

However, it's worth keeping in mind that this syndrome of abandoning low-status people takes many different forms. Attractive women are regularly preyed upon by the most demonic, Dark Triad men imaginable until they are severely psychologically damaged. Sexism against women and other mistreatment remains very much a real phenomenon in many contexts, with a very long and tragic history behind it. Ethnic minorities can be set up to fail and then shamed for doing so. Various invisible mental illnesses can cause discrimination. LGBTQ+ people can have very real problems despite the availability of support groups. And 'unattractive' women can wind up just as lonely, frustrated and hurt as their male counterparts.

When we buy into the notion that only our gender or ethnicity has problems, we miss the elephant in the room: low-status people of all types are prone to being treated horribly in our empathy-deprived society. Does it help when we fight amongst ourselves?

Furthermore, there are also many historical precedents of less-attractive men who are driven to develop qualities like humour or career success that ultimately overcome their problem and generate positive relationships. Most people are capable of becoming physically fit, too, which again is a question of effort. And even so, most women do not fixate exclusively on looks in a partner in the same way that men generally do.

 

[ge0rge]

what s a sub 4??

 

[İnilerim]

Extreme job discrimination: Most places won't hire you unless there's a huge shortage and the working conditions are poor and pay is low enough that they are willing to hire anyone. Even then they will be happy to fire you for no reason after some time, due to your coworkers disliking you, which they will due to your looks.

I don't buy that at all. Go to any male-dominated workplace and ask the workers there if they'd prefer a handsome coworker to a reliable one. They'll laugh in your face, I guarantee it. Being reliable is the most important quality to an employer (assuming you have adequate skills); for your coworkers, they just wanna do their job. Someone who is easy to get along with is probably their highest priority. If you have humor, that's a huge plus, but not required I'm sure.

Now, if you're socially awkward, that can be a real hindrance, I'll accept that. But not looks.

 

[orca87]

Now, if you're socially awkward, that can be a real hindrance, I'll accept that. But not looks.

Problem is that people perceive strangers as more social compatible based on looks. The power of first impression is looks.

That also means that it's harder for someone with worse looks to get along.

In turn, that increases the risk for someone with undesirable looks to become socially awkward.

 

[conflagration]

I am around 5-6 in looks, so with a lot of effort I would probably be able to find an average girl.
The thing is, I don't think it is worth the effort:
- I am mentally messed up because of my childhood, so I will be choosing messed up partners and two messed up people in relationship equals suffering (been there done that)
- Relationship are largely overrated, happiness level drops to baseline after around 2 years when initial phase of being in love passes, and it can even drop below your baseline if the relationship is bad. Divorce rates are sky-high nowadays and going through divorce can leave you devastated both financially and mentally.
- Nowadays it is a lot less pressure to being with someone, so you can live a pretty good live as a bachelor: focusing on career, doing sports, volunteering, meeting with colleagues, watching movies, playing games etc. Basically, things you won't have time for if you were married with kids.
- Having a lot of time, you can focus on spirituality, and it can give you satisfaction and fulfillment.

 

[SexyIncél]

When we buy into the notion that only our gender or ethnicity has problems, we miss the elephant in the room: low-status people of all types are prone to being treated horribly in our empathy-deprived society. Does it help when we fight amongst ourselves?

Yeah great point on infighting. Saying that such-and-such a group has it worse is a mainstream problem. Identity politics. Hierarchy of oppression. People don't team up

After I locked in my cbt plan, I went around and asked everyone's stories. From poor to elite, black to white, men to women, old to young. Different regions. Society crushes them in different ways, it's asymmetrical. Individuals have different tolerances for different crushings. Some can tolerate hunger but not loneliness; others are the opposite

btw I'm glad that people are treating the OP decently here. Otherwise I wouldn't say this, I'd pick a side. Guess I'm biased in favor of OPs

 

[orca87]

I am around 5-6 in looks, so with a lot of effort I would probably be able to find an average girl.
The thing is, I don't think it is worth the effort:
- I am mentally messed up because of my childhood, so I will be choosing messed up partners and two messed up people in relationship equals suffering (been there done that)
- Relationship are largely overrated, happiness level drops to baseline after around 2 years when initial phase of being in love passes, and it can even drop below your baseline if the relationship is bad. Divorce rates are sky-high nowadays and going through divorce can leave you devastated both financially and mentally.
- Nowadays it is a lot less pressure to being with someone, so you can live a pretty good live as a bachelor: focusing on career, doing sports, volunteering, meeting with colleagues, watching movies, playing games etc. Basically, things you won't have time for if you were married with kids.
- Having a lot of time, you can focus on spirituality, and it can give you satisfaction and fulfillment.

I'm not sure about this.


For some people that might be true and I know a lot of people for that this way of life worked.

But most people I know that are over 40 and voluntarily or involuntarily childless, are at least sub clinically depressed.

While there's no "meaning" in life, our biological program is designed to reproduce. We can skip that part, and find meaning in other things, but in my experience people with a regular family life are the most content and socially compatible people.

 

[conflagration]

I'm not sure about this.


For some people that might be true and I know a lot of people for that this way of life worked.

But most people I know that are over 40 and voluntarily or involuntarily childless, are at least sub clinically depressed.

While there's no "meaning" in life, our biological program is designed to reproduce. We can skip that part, and find meaning in other things, but in my experience people with a regular family life are the most content and socially compatible people.

You might confuse effect with cause. People who are depressed (like me) tends to avoid relationship because being in relationship is additional stressor, and you need to handle your emotions very well when you are in relationship.
People who are more or less mentally healthy usually enter relationship because they are sociable, they are optimistic about being in relationship, etc. Does it bring them more happiness? Probably it varies greatly depending on relationship quality, time and many other factors. In general, research shows that happiness levels drops to baseline after 2 years if you are in a quality relationship, and drops below your baseline if you are in a bad relationship (check out science of happiness from Stanford).

 

[epic]

Maybe an escort could give you some relief . This is in no way a substitute to being with a real partner but at least it's something. I have never been with a sex worker so take my opinion with a grain of salt . You can ask someone here if it helps.

Rich guys also do attract some women naturally . I had a female friend who openly talked about wanting to marry a guy because he is rich.

 

[Papilio_polyxenes]

I have empathy for everyone on here, but I must say that I've never understood this perspective. Try being a dark-skinned black male with autism like me if you think people consider you "subhuman."

Online dating is a meat market and approaching women in public (other than bars/clubs) is taboo. Everyone deserves to feel safe or comfortable, but social norms today can be "extreme." For example, there are TikTok fitness influencers who film in gyms and accuse any man who glances at them of being a pervert.

I'd even agree that attractive, well-liked guys face no consequence for their behavior. Chris Brown beat Rhianna to a bloody pulp, and he still has a legion of adoring (largely female) fans. Still rich and successful in spite of being "cancelled."

Beyond that, I don't agree about your other points. I see ugly guys on campus who have girlfriends and unattractive married men at grocery stores. Having a "sub-4 face" or being short is probably less of a dealbreaker in dating than untreated depression, zero career ambitions, no apartment or car, and lacking confidence/charisma.

Most attractive women have dealt with constant harassment from strangers since they were teens, and unattractive women face career obstacles and love life issues too. Nobody's existence is a cakewalk, and everyone here faces extraordinary challenges.

 

[𖣴 nadia 𖣴]

However, it's worth keeping in mind that this syndrome of abandoning low-status people takes many different forms. Attractive women are regularly preyed upon by the most demonic, Dark Triad men imaginable until they are severely psychologically damaged. Sexism against women and other mistreatment remains very much a real phenomenon in many contexts, with a very long and tragic history behind it. Ethnic minorities can be set up to fail and then shamed for doing so. Various invisible mental illnesses can cause discrimination. LGBTQ+ people can have very real problems despite the availability of support groups. And 'unattractive' women can wind up just as lonely, frustrated and hurt as their male counterparts.

When we buy into the notion that only our gender or ethnicity has problems, we miss the elephant in the room: low-status people of all types are prone to being treated horribly in our empathy-deprived society. Does it help when we fight amongst ourselves?

Thanks for highlighting those issues, threads like these could always do with a wider perspective. But, and maybe I'm interpreting this the wrong way, I don't think that psychological and sexual abuse is to do with a low status, seeing as a lot of successful, wealthy female celebrities and public figures experience sexual abuse and domestic abuse. I think it's more to do with childhood abuse leading to repetition compulsion or trauma bonding.

 

[spacehardware]

I don't buy that at all. Go to any male-dominated workplace and ask the workers there if they'd prefer a handsome coworker to a reliable one. They'll laugh in your face, I guarantee it. Being reliable is the most important quality to an employer (assuming you have adequate skills); for your coworkers, they just wanna do their job.

^^ This. I work in IT, software development specifically, it's a massively male dominated industry. Nobody gives a toss what you look like, the hiring managers couldn't care less where your face ranks out of 10, they just care if you're hardworking, reliable and not a psychopath. It doesn't really even matter if you're socially awkward as most people in this field are to some degree.

I think people care a hell of a lot less about looks than OP thinks they do. Maybe it's because I'm not "beautiful" myself, far from it, but I am far more interested in connecting with people with good hearts and great minds, than I am people with nice faces.

 

[6MillionWaystoDie]

The problem with this thread is there is confirmation bias at play. You already think you are horrible for X list of reasons, so when you receive your negative feedback you attribute it to your X list of reasons, instead of considering that normal reasons are at play, despite there being much evidence to suggest otherwise.

I worked in male-dominated industries all my life. I've had plenty "unattractive", unfit, or socially weird co-workers, including those who were known by all to fall into the autism spectrum. Noone villanized the persons. They were hired for their know-how and great work. The persons even had what I'd label as a "support club." When the persons did something highly awkward or very strange people were quick to say "don't pay that any mind he has autism, aspbergers, etc." This is a great show of people having compassion and understanding. And appreciating people for what they are and the skills they bring to the table.

While I empathize with your situation I'm skeptical and believe there are other things at play that you are choosing not to explore. It could be due to a blindspot, which we all fall victim to or your fixation on your X list of reasons. I encourage you to get out of this line of thinking and try something different. Its not serving you well.

PS - There of plenty of people that fit your chosen descriptors who are happily married or partnered. As others have mentioned looks are not the only thing women look at. They are more impressed by dependable men with family values, great job prospects and sense of humor.

Case in point I know of a gorgeous woman married to a guy that looks no where near attractive. But he is ambitious and dependable. She chose him over other partners that were more attractive and equally able in earnings etc.

 

[Pluto]

btw I'm glad that people are treating the OP decently here. Otherwise I wouldn't say this, I'd pick a side. Guess I'm biased in favor of OPs

Yes, agreed. The suffering is very real and deserves acknowledgement. Though sometimes it's important to gently steer the narrative for 2 reasons: the situation might be workable with a more informed/motivated outlook, and also the identity politics angle can be divisive to our diverse community.

I think it's more to do with childhood abuse leading to repetition compulsion or trauma bonding.

That can certainly happen. Men with autism sometimes succeed at wildly overcompensating and feature routinely on billionaires lists, too, while people of both genders sometimes turn historical abuse into a powerful motivational drive towards material success. It's certainly challenging to accurately summarise the complex and diverse issues that boil down to universal suffering.

 

[SexyIncél]

But, and maybe I'm interpreting this the wrong way, I don't think that psychological and sexual abuse is to do with a low status, seeing as a lot of successful, wealthy female celebrities and public figures experience sexual abuse and domestic abuse. I think it's more to do with childhood abuse leading to repetition compulsion or trauma bonding.

I think there's also a social cause. Willingness to be abused is often tested in the job interview

Joe Rogan's friend Joey Diaz boasted on podcast that he made 20 comedians give him blowjobs so they can do standup in a popular room. A gateway to Hollywood. He said one later wrote him a letter: "You cocksucker, you broke me." He and Joe laughed at that, it's all in the open

 

[epic]

You can ask someone here if it helps.

I meant ask someone here for advice not for anything else.

 

[Disappointered]

Trauma bonding once again mentioned? I almost can't believe it. Almost.

Thanks for highlighting those issues, threads like these could always do with a wider perspective. But, and maybe I'm interpreting this the wrong way, I don't think that psychological and sexual abuse is to do with a low status, seeing as a lot of successful, wealthy female celebrities and public figures experience sexual abuse and domestic abuse. I think it's more to do with childhood abuse leading to repetition compulsion or trauma bonding.

I read a study suggesting that a random sampling of women preferred the voices of men who had the dark triad personality so it might not be based on childhood abuse. I can't find the study anymore...so perhaps I have vivid hallucinations or confuse dreams with reality. Or maybe that study does exist.

 

[jdog2498]

You have a place here, we will all listen and talk to you. I'm not sure why beta males are discriminated against so badly. I'd say it even gets to the point of a hate crime, people have it out for you. You can share these feelings with a therapist. As long as you don't share anything about child endangerment , I don't think they can report you. I think it's especially bad for white males, because they don't get any protected class status. I suppose you can just smell an incel a mile away.

People don't trust you, and don't want you in their lives. They only want to hurt you, and will do anything short of killing you and your family to do it. People scruntinize sub4s from hell and back, to even your very existent itself being unbearable. They never will understand and love you, and will always want to hurt and justify hurting you, above all else.

Being a sub4 is a crime within itself. We can only help each other because we are ostracized from any meaningful relationship and living a life quality that is only slightly less than the rights we would need to ctb.

If you can unsub4 do it. There's nothing here for you no matter how much you try. Being sub4 is a crime

Edit: this post is unapproved so let me say it: I don't condone violence or justifying violence in any way. I don't condone sexism, racism or any other form of biogotry. I don't condone women hating , or any kind of sexist philosophy, especially not one that advocates for violence or oppression . I don't believe in this, and I don't think life is unfixable for "sub4s".

 

[DesireDeath]

You have a place here, we will all listen and talk to you. I'm not sure why beta males are discriminated against so badly. I'd say it even gets to the point of a hate crime, people have it out for you. You can share these feelings with a therapist. As long as you don't share anything about child endangerment , I don't think they can report you. I think it's especially bad for white males, because they don't get any protected class status. I suppose you can just smell an incel a mile away.

People don't trust you, and don't want you in their lives. They only want to hurt you, and will do anything short of killing you and your family to do it. People scruntinize sub4s from hell and back, to even your very existent itself being unbearable. They never will understand and love you, and will always want to hurt and justify hurting you, above all else.

Being a sub4 is a crime within itself. We can only help each other because we are ostracized from any meaningful relationship and living a life quality that is only slightly less than the rights we would need to ctb.

If you can unsub4 do it. There's nothing here for you no matter how much you try. Being sub4 is a crime

Edit: this post is unapproved so let me say it: I don't condone violence or justifying violence in any way. I don't condone sexism, racism or any other form of biogotry. I don't condone women hating , or any kind of sexist philosophy, especially not one that advocates for violence or oppression . I don't believe in this, and I don't think life is unfixable for "sub4s".

Are you actually sub4? If so, how are you coping with it?

 

[jdog2498]

Are you actually sub4? If so, how are you coping with it?

No just short and slightly austitic, suicidal. I have a past history really being bitter towards women, still don't like them very much but try to be less bitter. Want to give off less school shooter vibes I guess. Guess I'm not. Cope with spirituality and bluepilling.

I think people treat me differently cuz my height and introvertness. Can't find a gf, jerk off all day, dislike for tinder, modern-dating, always in loneliness and isolation. I didn't mean to come off fake or anything, I don't really have an agenda or anything. Really like r9k and reddit though, I've been reading greentexts and stuff like that for a very long time. Long time lurker but just recently started posting. Not here for that though here for depression which has been much longer. Hope this helps.

 

[Twiceler]

I liked this post, well said. I only wonder how is this going in China? I often hear Chinese parents prefer having a boy, and not a girl. I don't inderstand it.

 

[OceanBlue]

While there's no "meaning" in life, our biological program is designed to reproduce. We can skip that part, and find meaning in other things, but in my experience people with a regular family life are the most content and socially compatible people.

To be content with this world and willingly breed more humans is a disorder, these people are well-adapted to insanity.