Discussion getting out of 'life insurance' cycle of logic

[slapntickle]

I'm just after some advice on how one might be able to 'escape' (so I mean find a valid reason not to CBT) once life insurance payouts for one's family are taken into account. I am thinking about suicide from the point of it being a huge sacrifice, but the gain for my family is insanely good. Like unbelievably good.

I only recently discovered that life insurance pays out for suicides (after a 'cooling off' period of 2 years in the US, and 1 year in Europe). One can generally leverage 20x their income for an 'accidental death' payout, meaning that someone even on a modest European salary (let's say 50,000e a year) can get paid out, tax-free, a million euros. However you spin it, for many people (myself very much included), that's a life changing sum of cash. I have a very young child, and if say a third is spent on real estate and the rest invested into index funds, by the time he's 18, he'll have a property that was free to live in and has now appreciated several times over, and a wedge of cash that can be used to do anything he wants. Whatever he wants to study can be covered; where ever he wants to go will be possible. I can only imagine the joy and the life that he can set up for himself. His mother will also be provided for just based off the interest alone and a modest job. My sibling will inherit all of my parents testament, and so will be much better off. In short, it's just an amazing start in life that ensures security and prosperity for (literally) generations to come (if they don't mess it up).

I am in the process of ordering SN, have set up a trust to receive the payout, and have started sketching out an exit plan (ie to send relatives final words, passwords, email accounts etc to make things easier). It's kind of a bit 'scary' to me now because I'm treating it just like a project, setting up short and long terms goals with to-do lists etc. I desperately don't want to do it - the thought of not seeing my son even when I'm dead really pains me - but I keep thinking that he (and many other people) would just do better without me, and with the cash, and that I'll be remembered probably as a mentally ill person but who loved his son so much that he actually died for him so he could have a better future. You know when people say they would die for their children? I actually did. It's not a bad legacy to leave behind.

 

[daleke]

taking a bite at this because this is in the recovery section.

do you have any psychiatric history, including attempts, hospitalizations, or treatments, that you didn't disclose when you signed the policy? i feel like that could potentially void the claim, or at least be extremely painful for your family to have to sort out afterwards. that's really the only objection i can think of to the pure mechanics of what you're suggesting. you seem like you've done a lot of research into this, so i don't know if i could argue the financial implications of going through with this plan.

i'm also financially speaking a massive burden (i haven't crunched the numbers, but it wouldn't be pretty) and i'll probably continue to be one my entire life. a lot of people are, especially people with disabilities and who can't work.

i don't believe you have some sort of rational obligation to kill yourself just because it would be the better option for the people around you though, especially if we are only speaking in monetary terms. when you say that it makes you happy to be around your son and your partner, i honestly think that that's a good enough counterpoint. desires and what would bring you fulfillment do factor into the equation as this site is about autonomy and personal choice, not about optimizing society by having a certain subset of people die for the financial benefit of others. there is no "logical process" that shouldn't also factor in the genuine feelings and wishes of the person who wishes to die.

this is my attempt at an argument, and i can understand if you don't consider it a valid one. hopefully other people have some stronger arguments for you to consider. i wish you the best whatever you choose to do.

 

[INYGTRMTFMO]

when you say that it makes you happy to be around your son and your partner, i honestly think that that's a good enough counterpoint. desires

And, more importantly to the thought of cost-risk analysis, to what extent does it make your son and partner happy to be around YOU, and to what extent would your death make them unhappy?

I've done similar calculations-- I have a decent life insurance policy and a young daughter, and I wonder if the financial assets would be of more good to her than my stressed, depressed presence. Me dying would even give my husband a "free out" to find a better partner and, thus, a better parent for her. There are things "wrong" with me mentally that the mental health field is woefully inadequate to fix.

But children are deeply, intimately attached to their parents from the womb. Even infants who are adopted from day one experience separation trauma, even if they are never told they are adopted. Your son, no matter how old or young he is now, would feel that loss, and it would break something in him that therapy and love may be able to soothe but never heal.

That and you provide value to those close to you that isn't monetary. The gentle, loving presence of just being there and sharing space; the inside jokes, the shared memories, the comrade; the life experiences you have and what that can teach others. Nothing your son or wife can buy or invest can replace that.

 

[daleke]

And, more importantly to the thought of cost-risk analysis, to what extent does it make your son and partner happy to be around YOU, and to what extent would your death make them unhappy?

i want to thank you for responding, as i feel like i now have more to say that i didn't get to in my original message out of fear of being too wish-washy about your concerns. again, you don't have to listen to me or consider my perspective valid, i am just rattling off what i think.

you also seem set on the idea that your partner and your son would get over the tragedy of losing you if they received enough money, but there's no way to predict that. you don't know what their emotional response would be, you don't really get to decide that for another person, and there is a possibility it could be crippling and lifelong. some people don't respond well to therapy or medications, even if they have the money for it. even billionaires can be deeply affected by traumas despite their wealth.

in truth, i was thinking about the post slapntickle made throughout the day, because i wouldn't want them to die. you seem like you love your son very much and want the best for them, and that's already better than so many parents in the world and particularly in this forum. i'm not a parent, but i would have been grateful to have someone like you around, when i was stuck and in need of someone to talk to and rely on for help, who i knew loved me. more than i would have wanted a million dollars.

 

[Shiitake]

I'm just after some advice on how one might be able to 'escape' (so I mean find a valid reason not to CBT) once life insurance payouts for one's family are taken into account. I am thinking about suicide from the point of it being a huge sacrifice, but the gain for my family is insanely good. Like unbelievably good.

I only recently discovered that life insurance pays out for suicides (after a 'cooling off' period of 2 years in the US, and 1 year in Europe). One can generally leverage 20x their income for an 'accidental death' payout, meaning that someone even on a modest European salary (let's say 50,000e a year) can get paid out, tax-free, a million euros. However you spin it, for many people (myself very much included), that's a life changing sum of cash. I have a very young child, and if say a third is spent on real estate and the rest invested into index funds, by the time he's 18, he'll have a property that was free to live in and has now appreciated several times over, and a wedge of cash that can be used to do anything he wants. Whatever he wants to study can be covered; where ever he wants to go will be possible. I can only imagine the joy and the life that he can set up for himself. His mother will also be provided for just based off the interest alone and a modest job. My sibling will inherit all of my parents testament, and so will be much better off. In short, it's just an amazing start in life that ensures security and prosperity for (literally) generations to come (if they don't mess it up).

I am in the process of ordering SN, have set up a trust to receive the payout, and have started sketching out an exit plan (ie to send relatives final words, passwords, email accounts etc to make things easier). It's kind of a bit 'scary' to me now because I'm treating it just like a project, setting up short and long terms goals with to-do lists etc. I desperately don't want to do it - the thought of not seeing my son even when I'm dead really pains me - but I keep thinking that he (and many other people) would just do better without me, and with the cash, and that I'll be remembered probably as a mentally ill person but who loved his son so much that he actually died for him so he could have a better future. You know when people say they would die for their children? I actually did. It's not a bad legacy to leave behind.

i hope your young child has another parent/potential future caretaker.

 

[slapntickle]

i hope your young child has another parent/potential future caretaker.

I hope that it goes without saying that his mother - who is a dedicated and loving in her role - would take over. She also has a supportive family ready to step in and help.

 

[slapntickle]

And, more importantly to the thought of cost-risk analysis, to what extent does it make your son and partner happy to be around YOU, and to what extent would your death make them unhappy?

I've done similar calculations-- I have a decent life insurance policy and a young daughter, and I wonder if the financial assets would be of more good to her than my stressed, depressed presence. Me dying would even give my husband a "free out" to find a better partner and, thus, a better parent for her. There are things "wrong" with me mentally that the mental health field is woefully inadequate to fix.

But children are deeply, intimately attached to their parents from the womb. Even infants who are adopted from day one experience separation trauma, even if they are never told they are adopted. Your son, no matter how old or young he is now, would feel that loss, and it would break something in him that therapy and love may be able to soothe but never heal.

That and you provide value to those close to you that isn't monetary. The gentle, loving presence of just being there and sharing space; the inside jokes, the shared memories, the comrade; the life experiences you have and what that can teach others. Nothing your son or wife can buy or invest can replace that.

You make some great points here, and there's a lot to unpack, but to keep things brief and on point (and I'm really not playing devil's advocate here, this is genuinely how I think):

- My child is too young (less than a year old) to know what's going on, and certainly wouldn't have any conscious memory of being there and then suddenly not. From what I've read, as long as one primary care giver (ie a parent) is still around and present, the child has every chance to thrive. In terms of my partner, I'm not sure she'd care that much as long as the finances were taken care of. We have a bad relationship in many ways, we're ill suited, and we don't really like each other. She could be classed as abusive, and definitely has a host of (psychological) problems that she denies exist and will never get help for. I would never talk to her about my plans of course (knowing her, she would go to the authorities to have me sectioned, and that would then kill my life insurance policy), but I have 'jokingly' suggested the idea of choosing between me and a million euros - she said 'the million euros of course, do you think I'm stupid?', stony faced and with no hint of irony, so it's safe to say she wouldn't exactly lose sleep over it (it's also easy to spin to people after the event: 'he was mentally ill!').

- Not wanting to be old fashioned, but I honestly think there is a difference between the child losing a mother and a father. From what I've read, the child actually can't make a difference between themselves and their mother up until like 2 years old - they actually think they're the same person. Losing a mother is horrendous and God only knows what effect that might have on the child. I'm sorry if you feel like I'm trying to guilt-trip you (as you're a woman), but I'm really not, it's just how I feel. Plenty of children have truly absent fathers/mothers who remarried, and whilst they might not be as well-adjusted and happy as those that grew up in a fully functioning 'normal' family, many go on to live happy and successful lives... and as you rightly say, maybe not having a suicidal parent lurking around helps them in their path.

- You're right about the non-monetary benefits of a parent's presence. Of course they are there, and they're super important. I do think, though, that they can be gotten from other family members, and obviously a new partner when they're in the picture.

I didn't have a bad childhood at all, but things did start collapsing when my parents divorced when I was 15. We went from living fairly comfortable lives to having to make some sacrifices (around education, travel, direction of life etc) that absolutely hurt me. I know a lot of this is a reaction to that, but it doesn't really help me to have realised that. The fact still remains - because of a transfer of wealth from an insurance company to my family, the child (and by extent my own sibling as they would be the sole beneficiary of anything left to us by our parents) would be better off (in a financial sense) with me dead than alive, and I just can't seem to escape this logic.