For those who believe in an afterlife / those who are spiritual

[JustHere1]

No consequence for suicide "unless the greeting party is an asshole" ("but that's incredibly infrequent, especially with this kind of thing, it's taken more seriously") That would be insane. Your life ends one way or another where you are, and to see one end early is so regularly heartbreaking.

From an angel I know well in response, "If anything you'd be hugged if you needed it (I hope there would be good ones near you (we're all kinda different, but don't be freaking out, I say you've got a good shot!))- and then told something like, "You're gonna be fine. Whew. We're gonna work hard. Killing yourself was okay. We can sometimes find out for you what's going on. We know how it can be and we feel you. Don't feel pressured, but we encourage you to go down a new route, here. And I think you'd possibly be super cool, if you want. And that's cool! Yeah? "

Their personal example (supportive, little awkward and nervewracking, but sweet). Every individual/s are different and maybe they're related to you. I personally want to part ways with my family so I've requested to not meet them but I'm not sure how that gets upheld or anything.

Who ends up vibing with you on their end is anyone's guess though. I'm fortunate to have them as a reliable partner (a few really) I can discuss this with and it makes me substantially more comfortable with my decision to CTB in the coming weeks.

 

[Pluto]

But since time doesn't work in the traditional sense, this "frame of reference" has been / will be all of us at one point. Sort of as if the world were a giant play, we played all of the parts, and then we "edited" all of the characters

Your ideas are very good.

There are a couple of Kurzgesagt's ideas to clarify (or de-clarify as it were). This is inherently slippery to talk about because we are simultaneously referring to ourselves as separate entities and also speaking of being one with everything. In Buddhism, the two truths doctrine is one way of working with the appearance of being individuated for practical purposes, while acknowledging that ultimate reality is empty of separate entities.

Keep in mind that the slippery question of identity exists even at the level of the physical. The body contains trillions of individual cells which function separately yet form a collective totality. People in a city also function individually while forming part a collective community. It's not a huge stretch to say that planet Earth in turn forms a part of a mighty universal operation.

Inasmuch as there is a separate soul that moves from one lifetime to another, it is not having to live all 117 billion human lives in sequence (not to mention non-human beings on Earth and beyond). Indeed, from the cosmic perspective, it is valid to say that all beings are the same 'person'. But for the apparent individual soul? It's not that bad. This is the answer that Theologian Neale Donald Walsch was given in response asking how many past lifetimes he has lived.

You have had 647 past lives, since you insist on being exact. This is your 648th. You were everything in them. A king, a queen, a serf. A teacher, a student, a master. A male, a female. A warrior, a pacifist. A hero, a coward. A killer, a savior. A sage, a fool. You have been all of it! (Source: Conversations with God Book 1)

(Though not worth going into, there is an added layer of complexity when we consider that time itself is not linear; it would be more accurate to say that everything is happening all at once in the present moment. Thus, there are more dimensions than the 4 that we are familiar with.)

This understanding renders ethics and morality irrelevant. There is only a) enlightened self-interest, or b) stupidity/insanity. With the human race largely operating like a dysfunctional family (decidedly stupid/insane), we come here to experience the opposite of the usual perfect love. In striving to overcome the darkness, we are merely removing layers of illusion to reveal the eternal cosmic reality. It has been described as returning to a place that you never left. All the paradoxical language can be demystified by understanding the aforementioned two-truths situation.

Maybe the life review is more about collecting the intel of the experience rather than a self-assessment process. It does make total sense that whatever we have done within the life we can then see and feel how it affected others, cause those 'others' are just us too. This doesnt account for the dark NDE experiences though. Cause every life experience, every state at death, would simply be an unlabelled 'experience', no 'good' or 'bad' assigned. So why are some going to a hell-place post death?

I also understand @Pluto 's guidance to continue working to resolve and let go as much of the baggage as possible. But again in a circumstance where trauma is being added daily, and anger is arising thro suffering mistreatment and inability to escape the circumstances, it becomes almost outwith control in a human capability to dissolve anger. Facing toxicity without agency to act is a bind somewhat beyond spiritual alleviation.

The notion of a collective awakening has been described by many great teachers. In Eckhart Tolle's book A New Earth, he views the movement towards enlightenment as an evolution of humanity, comparing it to the first flowering plants or the first flying animals.

The only caveat with this sort of discussion is that certain cosmic matters are beyond our viewpoint by design, and there is a risk of misusing our time with metaphysical speculation. The Buddha used the analogy of a man who had been shot by a poisoned arrow, and instead of seeking immediate medical treatment, wasted critical time by asking unimportant questions about who had shot him. This is also why the Buddha remained silent in response to certain questions. At some point, the only valid question would be, 'How can I realise my true nature in direct experience?'

Hellish NDEs are rare and end quickly when the experiencer asks for help. It is no different to hellish life situations. It is supposed to be something that we have a pathway out of. There have been many success stories, but it's hard to find a common thread that links them. Nor am I inclined to preach about things that I've failed to put into practice myself...

 

[CantDoIt]

Inasmuch as there is a separate soul that moves from one lifetime to another, it is not having to live all 117 billion human lives in sequence (not to mention non-human beings on Earth and beyond). Indeed, from the cosmic perspective, it is valid to say that all beings are the same 'person'. But for the apparent individual soul? It's not that bad. This is the answer that Theologian Neale Donald Walsch was given in response asking how many past lifetimes he has lived.

Interesting, this would be sort of taking most NDEs at face value (and some reported cases of reincarnation). These people do indicate individual souls that sort of arise from some sort of "soul stream," which sounds very 'woo' but the amount of times that people have reported it is astounding when I look into it. "In my last life I didn't remember my past lives but in this one I do because it's useful for this incarnation" , "I believe people from (disaster) were all brought back quickly in order to achieve some specific purpose," etc. We are seriously in a very strange reality if these things are taken at face value. Why is it that individual fragments of consciousness are valuable to the universe?

I come from a scientific background and it makes me want to explain it scientifically. What are "souls" exactly? Are they a quantum waveform of some sort that becomes entangled with material beings after being sorted by some sort of cosmic algorithm? Is it explainable in terms of a materialist-ish perspective e.g., this all happens due to some sort of law of physics or is it completely not explainable and supernatural? Interesting to think about.

 

[Pluto]

The nature of this subject matter is to get more paradoxical the deeper one goes. It's somewhat analogous to Heisenberg's Uncertainty principle. According to Adyashanti, even when people are fully enlightened, they are still viewing reality from slightly different perspectives, hence will not agree on all points.

That said, the ultimate position of enlightenment-oriented traditions like Zen and Advaita Vedanta is that the individual soul doesn't exist. It is said to be an illusion caused by ignorance. All the human dramas, including suffering, karma and reincarnation, are a part of that illusion. The spell is only broken via dissolving the illusory self.



The so-called hard problem of consciousness remains an active area of study in the scientific community, though I feel that outside-the-box contributors like Professor Donald Hoffman have the right approach; this research could radically redefine how we view reality. It's a bit like the 19th century questions around planet Mercury's orbital eccentricity that ultimately resulted in the upending of Newtonian gravity in favour of radical new Relativistic theories, or any other game-changing discovery. Only much more fundamental.

I have no real predictions on how this will play out as far as the scientific community is concerned, as there is the possibility that science as we know it is not the right tool for the job. Because we are consciousness, the traditional framework of a scientist studying a phenomenon (subject-object duality) does not apply. Instead, the ultimate question becomes, 'Who Am I?'

This brings us back to so-called spiritual practices involving deep contemplation of immediate experience, seeking a genuine insight that exposes what is true and what is false. A scientist once asked the enlightened Advaita master Ramana Maharshi about this issue, querying whether there is a scientific approach to this subject. Ramana replied, "To eschew unreality and seek the Reality is scientific."

 

[DiegoJET]

For some reason I believe in the Neale Donald Walsch theory, because I have had several moments in my life that seemed like a deja vú, for real, I´m extremely skeptical about this, but I think scientifically there could be an explanation of this but more in the future. In many thoughts I have had about it is that the universe is supposed to expand and contract every billion years. This means that if the space in which it was created is empty and infinite, when the universe contracts it will pass through the same center from which it originated, exploding again giving rise to the same beings as at the beginning. Now, what I do think is that in some way or another, some created materials, over time, maintain certain structures of past universes that give rise to memories or moments considered "deja vú." The problem is which of those explosions we are in at the moment and whether they have a finite number of times it can occur until it ceases to exist again. We do not know what existed before the universe we are in or even what our universe is contained in so that it can expand, we do not know what absolute nothingness looks like. So I think it's a viable theory. Although past lives could also be explained by the fact that we are made from the same explosion of the universe, it is just that some bodies share closer similarities, as in the case of DNA or neuronal maps. Now, also, we may have already "CTBed" in past universes, it's just up to us when to do it. In the past universe we may have CTB many years before or later, only now we do it at a time when we never have before. It's a crazy theory, but the more you think about it, it might make sense. Peace

 

[CantDoIt]

The nature of this subject matter is to get more paradoxical the deeper one goes. It's somewhat analogous to Heisenberg's Uncertainty principle. According to Adyashanti, even when people are fully enlightened, they are still viewing reality from slightly different perspectives, hence will not agree on all points.

That said, the ultimate position of enlightenment-oriented traditions like Zen and Advaita Vedanta is that the individual soul doesn't exist. It is said to be an illusion caused by ignorance. All the human dramas, including suffering, karma and reincarnation, are a part of that illusion. The spell is only broken via dissolving the illusory self.



The so-called hard problem of consciousness remains an active area of study in the scientific community, though I feel that outside-the-box contributors like Professor Donald Hoffman have the right approach; this research could radically redefine how we view reality. It's a bit like the 19th century questions around planet Mercury's orbital eccentricity that ultimately resulted in the upending of Newtonian gravity in favour of radical new Relativistic theories, or any other game-changing discovery. Only much more fundamental.

I have no real predictions on how this will play out as far as the scientific community is concerned, as there is the possibility that science as we know it is not the right tool for the job. Because we are consciousness, the traditional framework of a scientist studying a phenomenon (subject-object duality) does not apply. Instead, the ultimate question becomes, 'Who Am I?'

This brings us back to so-called spiritual practices involving deep contemplation of immediate experience, seeking a genuine insight that exposes what is true and what is false. A scientist once asked the enlightened Advaita master Ramana Maharshi about this issue, querying whether there is a scientific approach to this subject. Ramana replied, "To eschew unreality and seek the Reality is scientific."

Thanks for the links, they're very helpful. I watched the first video link and I'm a little bit confused. He states that something does continue after death, but that it's sort of the personality, memories, wishes, etc of the individual. Although I read the segment on zen, I'm having trouble distinguishing this from a "soul." In fact, statements like things such as desires carrying over confuse me in particular because this feels like more than what is generally claimed to be carried over by those who have experienced NDEs or memories of previous incarnations. Is this theory consistent with the idea that the death of a human's material body somehow causes a manifestation of desire to be born in someone else, in which that person mistakes it for reincarnation? Is it functionally the same since we're all consciousness?

Hoffman's theory is interesting, and I do agree that there's something fundamental about consciousness, but that panphysicism doesn't fully explain it as it does not fully account for the so-called mystical. The tendency to ignore these experiences is too convenient for any fully materialistic view of existence. There's definitely something about reality that we're missing and I would guess, not intended to see fully.

I have tried numerous times to imagine what the "self" is and the only thing I've been able to picture is that the self is a "point of perspective." I have experienced ego death before, and it was quite similar to the understanding of "us as all," I understood individuals as avatars of a great universal consciousness, but that's where my understanding stopped. It did not lead me to understand implications about any one specific individual.

Edit: After thinking more about it, I guess it could be just the logical continued stream of consciousness; the same case as in that you weren't the same person 10 years ago, etc.

For some reason I believe in the Neale Donald Walsch theory, because I have had several moments in my life that seemed like a deja vú, for real, I´m extremely skeptical about this, but I think scientifically there could be an explanation of this but more in the future. In many thoughts I have had about it is that the universe is supposed to expand and contract every billion years. This means that if the space in which it was created is empty and infinite, when the universe contracts it will pass through the same center from which it originated, exploding again giving rise to the same beings as at the beginning. Now, what I do think is that in some way or another, some created materials, over time, maintain certain structures of past universes that give rise to memories or moments considered "deja vú." The problem is which of those explosions we are in at the moment and whether they have a finite number of times it can occur until it ceases to exist again. We do not know what existed before the universe we are in or even what our universe is contained in so that it can expand, we do not know what absolute nothingness looks like. So I think it's a viable theory. Although past lives could also be explained by the fact that we are made from the same explosion of the universe, it is just that some bodies share closer similarities, as in the case of DNA or neuronal maps. Now, also, we may have already "CTBed" in past universes, it's just up to us when to do it. In the past universe we may have CTB many years before or later, only now we do it at a time when we never have before. It's a crazy theory, but the more you think about it, it might make sense. Peace

Interesting. This sounds similar to Nietzsche's eternal return, which I'm not a fan of because it indicates that individuals would always live the exact same life, over and over, with no changes. However, if there were changes there could hypothetically be a more desirable situation.

 

[Pluto]

There is no problem with calling the subtle body a soul. The important point is that this subtle body is not a separate, independent entity. Indeed, both Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism view the separate identity as ultimately nonexistent.

A popular analogy for the individual souls in consciousness is that of separate waves in the ocean; appearances which come and go, yet the ocean itself is the only true reality.

Advaita describes that ultimate reality as the Self, or Brahman. By contrast, Buddhism's highest reality is ironically called no-self, or Śūnyatā (emptiness). Swami Sarvapriyananda has covered this topic in more detail. In short, what appears an utter contradiction is just two opposite ways of describing the nonexistence of the separate self.

Advaita Vedanta philosophy uses extensive argumentation and logic to debunk the sense of individuality. As you mentioned, one approach is to note the radical difference in appearance and behaviour between a toddler and the same person as an adult; the consciousness is the only thing that is consistent. In one of my posts, I also proposed a thought experiment involving being born as a totally different person, to similar effect.

Other analogies relate to illusion. Traditional Advaita used the analogy of someone seeing a snake, but realising upon closer inspection it was merely a rope. In modern times, dream-states, cinema screens and VR headsets offer similar analogies with entire worlds appearing which are found to have no reality. Even ourselves as spiritual seekers is just another part of the illusion, so attention must turn towards the silent, neutral consciousness that is in the background of all experience.

If awakening is the most important thing in life, one must commit to spiritual practices and wise company to reach a direct experience of the ultimate realisation that "I don't exist". Even with that attained, life goes on and the discarding of vasanas continues, but everything is experienced very differently.

Without a functioning separate/illusory self, all worries about death, karma, etc. are over. Hence, this has value even if it takes multiple lifetimes to achieve.

 

[Darkover]

Analogy of waves: Think of "you" as a wave on the surface of the ocean. When the wave subsides, it disappears back into the ocean (non-existence). Another wave can rise later, but it's not the same wave—it's just another expression of the same underlying ocean.

The metaphor of fire
Imagine consciousness as a flame. When your flame goes out, the candle (your body) and the wick (your memories and identity) are gone. If another candle is lit somewhere, it is a new flame. It may resemble the old one in that it burns, but it is not the same flame.

 

[Pluto]

For some reason I believe in the Neale Donald Walsch theory, because I have had several moments in my life that seemed like a deja vú, for real, I

In the highest sense, reality is infinite. Neale Donald Walsch repeatedly quotes Shakespeare's Hamlet:

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

He comments on déjà vu in Conversations with God Book 2. (Neale is in effect interviewing a higher entity using a method known as automatic writing.)

Spoiler: Excerpt

There is only One Moment—this moment—the Eternal Moment of Now.

It is right now that everything is happening—and I am glorified. There is no waiting for the glory of God. I made it this way because I just couldn't wait! I was so happy to Be Who I Am that I just couldn't wait to make that manifest in My reality. So BOOM, here it is—right here, right now— ALL OF IT!

There is no Beginning to this, and there is no End. It—the All of Everything—just IS.

Within the Isness is where your experience—and your greatest secret—lies. You can move in consciousness within the Isness to any "time" or "place" you choose.

You mean we can time travel?

Indeed—and many of you have. All of you have, in fact—and you do it routinely, usually in what you call your dream state. Most of you are not aware of it. You cannot retain the awareness. But the energy sticks to you like glue, and sometimes there's enough residue that others—sensitive to this energy—can pick up things about your "past" or your "future." They feel or "read" this residue, and you call them seers and psychics. Sometimes there is enough residue that even you, in your limited consciousness, are aware you've "been here before." Your whole being is suddenly jarred by the realization that you've "done this all before"!

Déjà vu!

Yes. Or that wonderful feeling when you meet someone that you've known them all your life—known them for all eternity!

That's a spectacular feeling. That's a marvelous feeling. And that's a true feeling. You have known that soul forever! Forever is a right now thing!