Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[GasMonkey]

You can pre-fill the EEDB hood too.

 

[lion4000b]

You can pre-fill the EEDB hood too.

By putting it on your head and letting it fill up, then bringing it down in the same way you would with the plastic bag?

 

[LesbianCarpetPython]

Canada Club send me instructions on how to set up the kit but they don't show you how you put the EEDB attachment on the regulator. I assume you screw it on rather than the nipple?

 

[ph0enix]

is the EEBD hood fully compatible with helium (99,996); and are the usual settings identical to the exit bag method regarding flow rate etc.?

 

[Kurt]

Did you get the mask or the scuba mask or will you use your own bag?

Stickstoff™ SCBA 580 Regulator Kit

 

[GasMonkey]

I assume you screw it on rather than the nipple?

ye, it's easy to see when you have it

is the EEBD hood fully compatible with helium (99,996)?

Nope, it's a N₂ regulator.

are the usual settings identical to the exit bag method regarding flow rate etc.?

@outrider567 said that K said that 15 LPM is ok, which is the same recommendation as the PPeH.
In the EEDB hood guide he says "15 LPM or higher".

The original manufacturers of EEDB hoods usually recommend 35 LPM, but that's thought to be used in movement.

 

[whiteupabove]

The good news is that while gas cylinder sizes are not globally standardized, the cylinder valve threads are —and both N2 and Ar cylinders have the same threads (other gasses have different threads), so a regulator that fits on one cylinder will fit equally well on another.

From TiredHorse's post, I understand I can use an Ar regulator with an N2 tank. My question is: won't the flow rate readings be inaccurate if a regulator is designed for Argon but is fed Nitrogen? I'm wondering if some mathematical conversion is necessary to compensate for N2 and Ar's differences in weight/pressure. if anyone has info on this it would help me out. Thanks.

 

[GasMonkey]

I'm wondering if some mathematical conversion is necessary to compensate for N2 and Ar's differences in weight/pressure.

https://nitrogenexit.blogspot.com/2020/08/setting-nitrogen-flow-on-argon-flow.html

 

[SamTam33]

I've been reading this thread for at least a couple of hours and I'm only on page 11. Granted I've stopped to view links and videos, but it will take me at least a week to get through everything.

There's so much info. So much to consider. Like being a heavy smoker and also my inexplicable resistance to pain meds, alcohol, anesthesia, etc. Makes me wonder if the standard specs will work for me.

I have 2 questions that I'm sure will be covered as I proceed but I'm asking now so I don't forget.

Feel free to ignore if they're annoyingly redundant.

1) If the bag is supposed to fit snugly around the neck but with room to allow the CO2 to flow OUT, what's to keep the Argon from flowing out of that same space? Conversely, what forces the CO2 to leave and not hang around, impeding the process?

2) Does it matter what position the tank is in? Looking at some of the pics of deceased people, their bodies get pretty nasty looking and I won't be found for weeeeeks. SMH. So I'm thinking of getting into the tub to contain the funkiness. Are there any issues with the canister being in a reclined position (next to me in tub)?

Note: I've tried to access different links to the PPEH but none of them work. They send me to the app store to try and find a program that will open it.

 

[color_me_gone]

you can pass out almost immediately

I hate to pop anyone's bubble, but I wouldn't put too much reliance on that "immediate" thingy.

I know there is information out there that indicates it can be immediate,
but users on this thread have experienced anything BUT immediate.

In fact TiredHorse, the person who started this lengthy thread, experienced a delay so long that his SI kicked in, and he removed the mask.
This happened several times. He was indeed frustrated.

TiredHorse was also knowledgeable about firearms.
Certainly no delay there, so long as SI doesn't prevent you from pulling the trigger.

Nobody knows what ever happened to TiredHorse, he just disappeared from SS.
I suspect he either gave Exit Bag another try and was finally successful, or possibly used a firearm, to which he had hinted at.
He was not the type of guy to ghost SS, for which I draw my assumptions.

The famous Smilla, also had problems with SI due to long time waiting to go unconscious.
She was finally successful, as explained in a more or less indirect way by a friend of her's.

Inert Gas/Exit Bag was once my method of choice.
I read all the literature about how immediate it was. This was the reason it was my choice.
I was disheartened by all the people who indicated how long it took to go unconscious.
I have since decided to give life another try.
If I have another change of heart (been there before), SN will be my method of choice.

what's to keep the Argon from flowing out of that same space?

Nothing! The Argon does escape out the bottom of the bag, which is why you need so much gas.

what forces the CO2 to leave and not hang around

The difference in the specific gravities of the two gasses.
CO2 is heavier than Argon, so it sinks to the bottom, and then forced out of the bag by the flowing Argon gas.

Does it matter what position the tank is in?

No, the tank, valves and regulator will work in any position.
The flow control, if the type using a ball bearing, will need to be vertical, as it relies on gravity acting on the ball.
The only thing important here is to prevent the tank from falling over, which could possibly disrupt the process.
Sound like the tank would be pretty safe reclining next to you in the bathtub.

A note about using Argon:
Now I know there are people who will refute me on this,
but the difference between the specific gravities between CO2 and Argon are VERY small.
This make me question how well the CO2 will drop to the bottom, and exit properly out the bottom of the bag.
This method was originally design for use with helium, which is much, much lighter than CO2.
But helium became scarce, and balloon gas people started mixing regular air with the helium, which defeated the purpose to ctb.
There is still a significant difference in the specific gravities between CO2 and nitrogen, so I would recommend using nitrogen.

 

[lion4000b]

I know there is information out there that indicates it can be immediate,
but users on this thread have experienced anything BUT immediate.

Thats interesting. I just reread the PPH and it says unconsciousness occurs in a matter of seconds. Maybe it comes down to how it is performed. Hyperventilation may be required. Id like to get some more feedback on this.

The time also was a major factor in my choosing this method.

 

[Γyuk]

 

[GasMonkey]

 

[lion4000b]

The abrupt loss of consciousness sounds good but why would he get childhood memories flooding in? That sounds scary. I want to be completely out.

Unless he was out but they poured in when the mask dropped off and his mind was recovering...

 

[Greenberg]

There are many levels of unconsciousness. Perhaps, @Diver_K_A was dreaming while out. I wonder if he is still around. We used to connect prior to the pandemic.

 

[whiteupabove]

I've been trying to determine what regulator I need, but am becoming a little overwhelmed... Maybe someone kind could offer me some insight?

I'll recap what I have learned: the argon regulator TiredHorse recommended is no longer available. 4m4zon has cheap options for argon regulators, but the reviews suggest they are leaky and/or give unreliable flow readings. An argon regulator from Victor, a brand that seems established and reputable, currently retails for ~$140 on 4m4zon. I was considering taking the plunge on that, but then I learned (source: thread "Nitrogen regulator", see posts by user @pane) that an oxygen regulator could also work with an N2 tank. It presents one extra step, installing a CGA 580 to 540 adapter, which seems straightforward.

The oxygen regulator seems to have two advantages: first, O is much closer in density to N2 than Ar, so flow rate conversions will be less of a concern. Second, the design seems preferable. The O regulator has preset flowrates that are clicked through, which seems simpler and less prone to user error than the knob and floating ball design of Ar regulators. Pricing/sourcing issues exist with O regulators as with Ar regulators... cheap ones are unreliable, reliable options retail at 2-3x what SS users reported paying for them in the past.

Sorry if this is a long post. I am trying to be thorough... to wrap up, does anyone have insight on whether an Ar regulator vs an O regulator is better? And if anyone has links for sourcing, please PM me, I'd like to have more known options as older sources seem to have dried up.

-edit-
Unrelated question: has anyone ever encountered issues sourcing gas from airgas? For example tanks not being pure or as full as they claimed to be?

 

[GasMonkey]

Uncle J3ff B3z0s has both N₂ regulators and N₂ cylinders.

 

[parkinglot]

Had a close call with my nitrogen delivery. Was at college and delivery came on the one day I wasn't home, and I thought my brother was home since I got a message saying it was delivered even though the post office said it's an order they can't leave but when I got home, I found the nitrogen left by my door and my brother wasn't home.

This is why I preach paranoia / operational security in my previous posts.

 

[ph0enix]

whats the durability of an industrial helium 4.6 cylinder 99,9996?
i opened it once, for a short time just to test

can i use it to ctb in 1,2,5,10 years from now, or just for some weeks/months because it will escape?

not cheap and don't want to waste it if i don't ctb

 

[LesbianCarpetPython]

ye, it's easy to see when you have it

Okay, yeah I see what you mean. My stuff came and it's super easy. Read the PPH and screwing the regulator on seems straight forward. If there's anything else I should do then let me know. I want to get this right
Though putting on the hood is scarier than I thought so I don't know if I can pull it off

 

[color_me_gone]

whats the durability of an industrial helium 4.6 cylinder

The tank itself is no problem, but sometimes the shutoff valves leak just a teeny tiny bit, almost undetectable.

 

[ph0enix]

cool so basically infinite durability?

 

[color_me_gone]

As long as the valve don't leak.
Check the pressure after 6 months, if it is down slightly, then you have a leaky valve.

 

[carcassi]

Hi, I know you can check for leaks from a cylinder from a poor connection with the regulator by spraying a soapy solution on the connection, or you can check it with a pressure test. Does anyone know more about the pressure test? What I read is that you attach the regulator and set the flow control to zero and turn on the tap of the cylinder. You'll see the pressure on the gauge, and if it falls after a couple minutes or twenty minutes then there is a leak? Is that correct? I think you can also check if the cylinder itself is leaking when closed by attaching the regulator and keeping the cylinder valve closed. If the pressure gauge stays the same, there is no gas leaking.

 

[ph0enix]

so i know that it's usually recommended to ctb with the exit bag using an arm chair.

how about doing it in a small car? are there any tips? i am quite tall and if i sit on the drivers seat the space between the top of my head and the ceiling is quite small, so i think it's hard to put the bag on my forehead and fill it due to lack of space.

i think the drivers or passendere seat in general seems quite good especially with the possibility of a seatbelt.

however, one could also think about doing it in the back seats, kind of a lying position the with the back to the windows. hmmm…?

what are the thoughts of you experts?
i mean doing it in a motel/hotel/airbnb is also cumbersome and you traumatize so else… + you need a good chair which might not be at the hotel…

in a car, you can make the police find you with a pre-scheduled email.

 

[neoyokio]

I am not worried about carrying it out myself but worried about getting the setup right, ie, the tubing part etc. i'm wondering about the legal implications of getting some assistance with that aspect. how would anyone know if someone helped you with some aspect of the setup, ie, the threading of the tubing? say I buy everything myself and execute it myself but someone helps me with one aspect of the setup. like how would they be implicated if no one finds out?

 

[color_me_gone]

i am quite tall and if i sit on the drivers seat the space between the top of my head and the ceiling is quite small

Do the front seats recline? That would give you more overhead room.

 

[ph0enix]

Hey all,

what is your take on the sweatband/hairband + bag variant in comparison to a string cord?

Attached you find a picture with my relative large hose + band; Because of the hose, there will be a gap as seen on the pictures.

"The size of a gap is a valid question: How big should the gap be? And of course, the answer is "it depends," on the total outflows from the enclosure (exit bag).

With the gas flow at a steady state and natural breathing, it must permit the exit of 15 LPM plus the additional expired flow from breathing. Whilst at the same time, it must be not too large to permit air from the external environment to enter and flood the bag. This is one of the primary reasons why an exit bag may not be ideal.

To minimize the variability of the gap, it is best to fix the gap at a certain width while facilitating the above. That is why people choose to use a string and limit the size of the gap." (info from G, thanks)

So, using a string cord may decrease the size of this gap a bit. But if it's too small then, it may permit the outflow.

Hm, it's hard. Do you think the gaps shown in the pictures with the band are not riskfree when it comes to air entering, i.e. too large?

I would be so thankful for replies!

 

[LesbianCarpetPython]

I guess it's back to the drawing board for me. My regulator doesn't fit so I'll have to go back to partial hanging. Maybe I'll try and find another regulator that fits my canister since all the regulators I saw seems to have the nut actually reach all the way to the bottom, including the Max Dog one.

 

[LesbianCarpetPython]

I feel scammed tbh. Because I feel the EM type 50 regulator nut should reach all the way to the bottom but it doesn't for me.