Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[suffering_mo]

Wanted to put this out there for US folks....I have called a lot of gas places. Industrial nitrogen ranges from 90 to 99% in variation and you won't know what you are getting unless you test it. Food grade nitrogen comes in a different cylinder that is not CGA 580 compliant. For UHP nitrogen, which is 99.9% pure, almost all places only have those in 300 cu ft cylinders. This includes the national gas company that starts with Air. I only found ONE place in my area after calling that can give me an UHP option in an 80 cu ft tank and I have to call back and confirm that it's a CGA 580 tank. This is proving to be very concerning for this method and it would explain a lot of failures for regular people thinking they can just pick up the 40 cu ft tank, use an exit bag, etc. @Tears in Rain doesn't the nitrogen have to be about 97% or higher for CTB?

 

[suffering_mo]

I think I found a tank...a needle in a haystack. However, can you experts explain to me....is there risk of "suffocating" feeling, once you start breathing in the nitrogen and you no longer have oxygen? If you use a SCBA system? Or any other system? Also, how loud is the release of the nitrogen? Is there a hissing sound that could be overheard if you are in a hotel? @Tears in Rain @outrider567 @kudaphillips @Kapsyl

 

[outrider567]

I think I found a tank...a needle in a haystack. However, can you experts explain to me....is there risk of "suffocating" feeling, once you start breathing in the nitrogen and you no longer have oxygen? If you use a SCBA system? Or any other system? Also, how loud is the release of the nitrogen? Is there a hissing sound that could be overheard if you are in a hotel? @Tears in Rain @outrider567 @kudaphillips @Kapsyl

There is zero 'suffocating' feeling while breathing Nitrogen, you breathe 78% Nitrogen every day--I've tested mine 6 times, its just like breathing air, and the hissing is minimal, but you can always wear ear plugs like I do--The human body has a design flaw, it doesn't recognize 99% Nitrogen as life-threatening, thus no physical reaction to it, you just go to sleep

 

[devils~advocate]

Outrider567, have you tested the purity of the Nitrogen gas?
There has been some thought that the purity varies greatly.
My thoughts were that it usually is around 99% in most cases. Its just the number of 9s past this where different grades come into play.
Is there a particular grade & tank size one should ask for? I thought regular Industrial would work fine. This is regards to SCBA method.

 

[suffering_mo]

The important variable here is not how big the volume of the tank but rather what pressure is it under. The tank you mentioned is at 100bar, but the one in PP is at 200bar. Twice the pressure and twice of amount of nitrogen.

Always look at the amount of uncompressed gas rather than the size of the tank. I use a 5 liter tank at 200bar which is about 1000 liter of uncompressed nitrogen.

@Kapsyl I have a question about this, especially when you are going to buy a pre-filled tank. If the nitrogen is in a 40 cu ft tank, and that's just how they sell it to you, how do you know how much nitrogen you are getting? How could you possibly know how many "bars" of gas there are?

Also, how do we know how much nitrogen will be needed? If it's an on demand system, like SCBA, I would "guess," that you would need less gas.

Any explanation here about all this would be great.

 

[devils~advocate]

@Kapsyl I have a question about this, especially when you are going to buy a pre-filled tank. If the nitrogen is in a 40 cu ft tank, and that's just how they sell it to you, how do you know how much nitrogen you are getting? How could you possibly know how many "bars" of gas there are?

Also, how do we know how much nitrogen will be needed? If it's an on demand system, like SCBA, I would "guess," that you would need less gas.

Any explanation here about all this would be great.

The cylinder (tank) they sell to you should have the amount per the size.
They are usually color coded or have a sticker on them stating what they contain.
There might be data also labeled on it that states how much it has in it & the pressure it is at. Its all an industry standard.
The cylinders for nitrogen are made to hold it exclusively. You can't interchange gases in cylinders.

So a 40 cubic foot cylinder will have just about that...40 cf, which is about 1100 liters.
It will also be at about 2200 psi or more (pounds per square inch) of pressure in the US. (which is about 150 bar)
(Bars is the metric unit of pressure 100kPa. Used everywhere in the world except the US.)

40 cf is sufficient. It is equivalent to 5L cylinder metric. If they had normal air in them, they would last about 30-40 minutes in a scba system.
Because these are the same size cylinders & pressure that fire fighters use.

 

[Kapsyl]

@Kapsyl I have a question about this, especially when you are going to buy a pre-filled tank. If the nitrogen is in a 40 cu ft tank, and that's just how they sell it to you, how do you know how much nitrogen you are getting? How could you possibly know how many "bars" of gas there are?

Also, how do we know how much nitrogen will be needed? If it's an on demand system, like SCBA, I would "guess," that you would need less gas.

Any explanation here about all this would be great.

Simply! By looking at the pressure gauge, mine had one built in the cylinder. Am I correct that you're doing a scuba setup? What I understand they're also outfitted with a pressure gauge to notify the user how much "air" left in the tank. That would indicate that your cylinder is full.



I'm not sure, but it would make sense that you would use less since nothing is going to waste. I found some specifications for scba air consumption, the reason I'm not looking at scuba is that more air is required while diving because of pressure.

Looks like your cylinder should last you around 55 min or so, plenty of time.

View attachment IMG_1281.webp

 

[suffering_mo]

Simply! By looking at the pressure gauge, mine had one built in the cylinder. Am I correct that you're doing a scuba setup? What I understand they're also outfitted with a pressure gauge to notify the user how much "air" left in the tank. That would indicate that your cylinder is full.

View attachment 142516

I'm not sure, but it would make sense that you would use less since nothing is going to waste. I found some specifications for scba air consumption, the reason I'm not looking at scuba is that more air is required while diving because of pressure.

Looks like your cylinder should last you around 55 min or so, plenty of time.

View attachment 142519

Thank you. I'm considering SCBA... feeling a time crunch but trying to learn all I can to see if it's something I can make work. It's quite expensive unfortunately.

 

[Kapsyl]

Thank you. I'm considering SCBA... feeling a time crunch but trying to learn all I can to see if it's something I can make work. It's quite expensive unfortunately.

It's a very expensive way to ctb overall, but money means nothing when gone. For reference my setup cost around 600-700 dollar and that's without the make since I've had it long before considering ctb.

 

[suffering_mo]

It's a very expensive way to ctb overall, but money means nothing when gone. For reference my setup cost around 600-700 dollar and that's without the make since I've had it long before considering ctb.

This is like $2500 for the SCBA method, buying everything new....I would have ZERO problem whatsoever with spending the $ if I were a single person and it weren't such a risk for me getting caught...If I succeed, my spouse will get life insurance so it's mostly just spending the $, getting caught or it not working out/getting caught with the equipment. I don't have much opportunity to get this done. I'm kinda in a time crunch because I will have time alone coming up and I am typically at home with others 24/7 almost always. Still considering things but I think I will be going to a hotel. My situation is quite complex and stakes are high. I have one of the saddest stories on this site TBH. I can still hardly believe the horrible turn of my life in the last 6 months.

 

[Kapsyl]

This is like $2500 for the SCBA method, buying everything new....I would have ZERO problem whatsoever with spending the $ if I were a single person and it weren't such a risk for me getting caught...If I succeed, my spouse will get life insurance so it's mostly just spending the $, getting caught or it not working out/getting caught with the equipment. I don't have much opportunity to get this done. I'm kinda in a time crunch because I will have time alone coming up and I am typically at home with others 24/7 almost always. Still considering things but I think I will be going to a hotel. My situation is quite complex and stakes are high. I have one of the saddest stories on this site TBH. I can still hardly believe the horrible turn of my life in the last 6 months.

Scba is a more expensive setup since it has little civilian use, scuba is much more affordable. Not to rain down on your parade but usually life insurance doesn't cover suicides, only accidental deaths. This may of course differ in your situation but in my case they wouldn't pay a cent for my death.

I'm sorry about your situation, my life also took a horrible turn around 5 months ago so I can understand your suffering. I also feel that time is slipping away, all through I could ctb at anytime since I now live alone it's still hard. I'm again sorry about your situation.

 

[suffering_mo]

Scba is a more expensive setup since it has little civilian use, scuba is much more affordable. Not to rain down on your parade but usually life insurance doesn't cover suicides, only accidental deaths. This may of course differ in your situation but in my case they wouldn't pay a cent for my death.

I'm sorry about your situation, my life also took a horrible turn around 5 months ago so I can understand your suffering. I also feel that time is slipping away, all through I could ctb at anytime since I now live alone it's still hard. I'm again sorry about your situation.

Sorry to hear that for you too. I will recheck my policy but I recall that after 2 years, it covers suicide.

A big part of the problem with Scuba is the lack of adapters in the US. Apparently, you can get them... there are 2 pieces, but what people are finding is that they don't screw together as they need to, causing leaks. The older European adapters worked but you can't get those now. If anyone knows differently, please let me know.

 

[devils~advocate]

Sorry to hear that for you too. I will recheck my policy but I recall that after 2 years, it covers suicide.

A big part of the problem with Scuba is the lack of adapters in the US. Apparently, you can get them... there are 2 pieces, but what people are finding is that they don't screw together as they need to, causing leaks. The older European adapters worked but you can't get those now. If anyone knows differently, please let me know.

(sorry didnt realize the reference post was talking about scuba, not scba)
The brass adapter shown below is the US version for scba.
One can use high pressure thread sealant brushed on the threads to keep it from leaking. Its made for 5000 psi pneumatic systems.
I know this brass adapter has a small hole in the 346 thread part. Its for safety purposes. But that can be sealed over.

The European adapter is the opposite of what is shown below (which is the US version).
The European adapter is a female connection on both ends.
The cylinder connection is male & the scba reducer connection is male as well (European version).

GasMonkey Setup [Nitrogen SCBA]

🐵 GasMonkey Setup 🐵 [Nitrogen SCBA] Positive Pressure Self-Contained Breathing Apparatus **images have been edited to ensure anonymity** Front view Side view Back view Pressure gauge Lung Demand Valve and Mask Bluetooth pulse oximeter Cylinder attachment Cylinder's connection...

sanctioned-suicide.net

 

[kudaphillips]

How would it benefit from using the regular inner mask of the hood? Or are you referring to the exit bag?

I can tell from experience from using a closed constant flow setup that 10/lpm is not nearly enough, even with shallow breath 25/lpm was just enough to feel comfortable 30-35/lpm is what I'm going to use most likely.

35 lpm for exit bag ? Or for eebd

I think I found a tank...a needle in a haystack. However, can you experts explain to me....is there risk of "suffocating" feeling, once you start breathing in the nitrogen and you no longer have oxygen? If you use a SCBA system? Or any other system? Also, how loud is the release of the nitrogen? Is there a hissing sound that could be overheard if you are in a hotel? @Tears in Rain @outrider567 @kudaphillips @Kapsyl

You shouldn't feel any suffocation if it's pure nitrogen . If done incorrectly , then yes .
Yes hissing sound, but I think a hotel would be completely fine , not loud enough to alarm anyone in a hotel

 

[Kapsyl]

35 lpm for exit bag ? Or for eebd

For any constant flow setups like my mask and possibly eebd. By the way how exactly airtight are these eebd hoods? Could you or someone be so kind to test if these hoods keep out air on their own. Are you able to breathe when no nitrogen is flowing? Do they form a vacuum when trying to breathe without air? Or do they allow small amounts of air too come through and relay on the nitrogen to push out the air?

 

[limeoctave]

Are you able to breathe when no nitrogen is flowing?

no

Do they form a vacuum when trying to breathe without air?

yes

at least mine (Draeger Saver CF)

if i remember correctly, when I closed the hole in the hose and tried to inhale, a vacuum was created, and the air did not enter the hood through the valve and elastic on the neck, even a little

 

[albstr1403]

So we have examples of people succeeding with pretty high tech setups, mostly with SCBA, SCUBA, and Vizzy with the hood but what about with exit bags? Any CTBs with Hoods besides Vizzy?

Didn't Vizzy end up doing Sn?
I've been lurking and was wondering.. what's the benefits of scba vs eebd hood?

From what I got, scba is more expensive, but seems more reliable since it's secured on your head, simpler to assemble/has less components to fuss over, and has less possible points of failures like leaks.

 

[limeoctave]

Didn't Vizzy end up doing Sn?
I've been lurking and was wondering.. what's the benefits of scba vs eebd hood?

From what I got, scba is more expensive, but seems more reliable since it's secured on your head, simpler to assemble/has less components to fuss over, and has less possible points of failures like leaks.

does the SCBA system guarantee that all exhaled air and co2 is removed from the mask immediately? if so, i guess that's the main benefit

im just not familiar with this method

 

[Tartarruss12]

My concern is for whoever has to find the person who CTB; a covered head might just be more triggering or upsetting for them.

 

[suffering_mo]

Didn't Vizzy end up doing Sn?
I've been lurking and was wondering.. what's the benefits of scba vs eebd hood?

From what I got, scba is more expensive, but seems more reliable since it's secured on your head, simpler to assemble/has less components to fuss over, and has less possible points of failures like leaks.

He did use SN and then used an EEBD hood, it seems. I think that's my concern with the EEBD hood.... what if his death had more to do with the SN versus the hood? There doesn't seem to be many examples of success....

 

[kudaphillips]

For any constant flow setups like my mask and possibly eebd. By the way how exactly airtight are these eebd hoods? Could you or someone be so kind to test if these hoods keep out air on their own. Are you able to breathe when no nitrogen is flowing? Do they form a vacuum when trying to breathe without air? Or do they allow small amounts of air too come through and relay on the nitrogen to push out the air?

In my opinion , my eebd hood is basically just like an exit bag. The purge valve doesn't work well, so essentially air just flows out the bottom , yes you can breathe in it with no nitrogen like an exit bag ( I have vizzy exact hood )

 

[limeoctave]

yes you can breathe in it with no nitrogen like an exit bag ( I have vizzy exact hood )

interesting

did you close the hole in the hose when breathe in?

 

[kudaphillips]

interesting

did you close the hole in the hose when breathe in?

I did plug the hole, I'm sure after a few minute I would start to get air hunger just like with bag .
But if the question is "is it air tight without any gas flowing?" , this is certainly a no.

 

[k1w1]

For those in the US, I called a couple of places about the nitrogen. I can rent the tank, which is good because I don't plan to stick around. However, I'm getting the run around when I ask for the info on the purest nitrogen they have. For the nationwide company that begins with Air, they said they have different types. That the best is "Industrial" grade. However, when I asked about the purity, the guy said he's asked before and no one has ever been able to answer that question.

The other smaller company also wouldn't tell me. They just said, tell me what you need it for and I can tell you what kind to get. Ugh.

Anyone in the US know what "Grade" to get from the Air___ Company?

The concentration is written on the abel. Industrial gas is 99.99
Do a search on AB for this beauty......35 bucks for the mask and ldv. This would have been inconcievable at this price even a year ago. The image is mobile and wont paste so you can look for yourselves. Soft rubber inner mask unlike the yellow hood....and a LDV. Ill order and report back.
Positive pressure air breathing apparatus mask and RHZK 6.8 / 30mpa air supply valve
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/100...e137cd546cf8a384523452f67ed&afSmartRedirect=y

 

[devils~advocate]

The concentration is written on the abel. Industrial gas is 99.99
Do a search on AB for this beauty......35 bucks for the mask and ldv. This would have been inconcievable at this price even a year ago. The image is mobile and wont paste so you can look for yourselves. Soft rubber inner mask unlike the yellow hood....and a LDV. Ill order and report back.
Positive pressure air breathing apparatus mask and RHZK 6.8 / 30mpa air supply valve

Good find. Would still need some sort of 1st stage pressure reducer.
But I would think that shouldnt be hard to find.
The hose connection on the ldv is a quick connect kind. I think it would be the high flow (Euro) kind. Type V style (the major D manuf ldv are)
Then its just connecting that to the regulator/reducer. Regulator would need to have an outflow of at least 100 psi.

 

[Amish]

I'm considering the EB or SN to CTB method, depending on how much material I can gather. I have questions and concerns about the EB method:

- I found a bottle of nitrogen for sale on a beer brewing equipment website. It's a 2l x 240 bar bottle, or 480l of compressed nitrogen if I'm correct. The bottle is labelled "food-grade nitrogen". Could this have an impact on the success of the EB method?

- Is 480l enough? At 15/min, that's 32 minutes of gas, which is more than the PPHE recommends.

- Is the EB method still reliable? Is there another method like EEBD, SCUBA, SBA or does it require a larger quantity of gas?

Sorry if my english is not good, I'm using Deepl

 

[limeoctave]

The concentration is written on the abel. Industrial gas is 99.99
Do a search on AB for this beauty......35 bucks for the mask and ldv. This would have been inconcievable at this price even a year ago. The image is mobile and wont paste so you can look for yourselves. Soft rubber inner mask unlike the yellow hood....and a LDV. Ill order and report back.
Positive pressure air breathing apparatus mask and RHZK 6.8 / 30mpa air supply valve
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/100...e137cd546cf8a384523452f67ed&afSmartRedirect=y

so this mask should work with regulator? on constant flow?

 

[devils~advocate]

so this mask should work with regulator? on constant flow?

Yes with a regulator. But its not a constant flow like a hood method, it is a on-demand type of system. See image above for possible layout.
The LDV,(lung demand valve) which is the item with the big red button. It is sort of a magical valve. It only allows air (or gas) to flow when one breathes in.
The mask has ports that are one way for exhale.
This would require some sort of regulator to bring the pressure from the gas cylinder down to a level that the LDV can use.
The LDV operates at about 85-130 psi. The pressure in the gas cylinder is at least 2200 psi.
(One couldn't connect this directly to a cylinder without having some kind of regulator...the pressure alone would either blow the mask off or damage the LDV.)

 

[limeoctave]

Yes with a regulator. But its not a constant flow like a hood method, it is a on-demand type of system. See image above for possible layout.
The LDV,(lung demand valve) which is the item with the big red button. It is sort of a magical valve. It only allows air (or gas) to flow when one breathes in.
The mask has ports that are one way for exhale.
This would require some sort of regulator to bring the pressure from the gas cylinder down to a level that the LDV can use.
The LDV operates at about 85-130 psi. The pressure in the gas cylinder is at least 2200 psi.
(One couldn't connect this directly to a cylinder without having some kind of regulator...the pressure alone would either blow the mask off or damage the LDV.)

oh i see, thank you. so it works similar to TIG gas welding, when you did setup needed pressure on regulator, and then the pressure is held in the hose, and only opens when you press the button, but here it opens when you inhale

 

[devils~advocate]

oh i see, thank you. so it works similar to TIG gas welding, when you did setup needed pressure on regulator and then it holds it, and only opens when you press the button, but here it opens when you inhale

Yes kind of like that. TIG would have an electronic switch (foot or finger) that would open a solenoid valve.
This LDV is all mechanical and seems to be balanced with inhale of breathe to open the valve.
Its like the mouthpiece used for scuba diving. But like scuba, this system would also need a regulator/reducer to bring that pressure down.

The scba system that Gas Monkey discusses has its own regulator (called a reducer in that industry, fire fighting) that brings the pressure down to a certain level without the need of adjustments or knobs etc.

This system that k1w1 describes, doesnt have that reducer included with it. But one could use a reducer from any the scba manuf. I think they are all compatible with each other. The image I have in the post above, is a possible work-around for this reducer...to just use a conventional regulator. It just has to be one that has the connection to the cylinder tank and its capable of at least 100 psi (note some only go up to 60 psi or so).
This setup would need to be tested, it is just hypothetical.