Charlie Kirk shot at campus event in Utah

[Hvergelmir]

Do you propose that people should wait until they're being shipped to camps, oh wait... Do you propose people should wait until they're being attacked in the street, oh wait... Do you propose people should wait until there's a systematic disinformation machine all targeted against them, oh wait... At what point do people earn the privilege to defend themselves?

First and foremost that depends on local law, but in general; yes, you cannot defend yourself until danger is imminent.
I personally feel threatened by a religious group. I'm no pacifist, and won't hesitate to kill, if needed. I will however not judge any of them by association, and preemptively attack.

It would be immoral, but also illegal, and counterproductive.

 

[likelyonthespectrum]

When they're shipping you off to a camp, at least you can smugly say to yourself "at least I didn't punch first".

yeah, I can live(in this case die) with that if it happens.

 

[GhostInTheMachine]

First and foremost that depends on local law, but in general; yes, you cannot defend yourself until danger is imminent.
I personally feel threatened by a religious group. I'm no pacifist, and won't hesitate to kill, if needed. I will however not judge any of them by association, and preemptively attack.

It would be immoral, but also illegal, and counterproductive.

Ah yes, the law, the shining beacon of justice which has never let people fall through the cracks before.

 

[hippiedeath]

First and foremost that depends on local law, but in general; yes, you cannot defend yourself until danger is imminent.
I personally feel threatened by a religious group. I'm no pacifist, and won't hesitate to kill, if needed. I will however not judge any of them by association, and preemptively attack.

It would be immoral, but also illegal, and counterproductive.

And you my friend, should be locked up. You'd probably shoot up a church from your own words.

 

[YandereMikuMistress]

Spoiler: Shooting footage TW

https://watchpeopledie.tv/h/shooting/post/379641/just-now-charlie-kirk-shot-in

Yea my partner showed me this video posted on some Instagram account he was real sad

 

[Winterreise]

Sorry I cant prevent this from happening.

 

[Hvergelmir]

You'd probably shoot up a church from your own words.

That's a pretty serious accusation. You have no idea of where I am, or in what situation I am.
I could be democrat or a republican, an American, or maybe Israeli, or a Palestinian. I could be Christian or Muslim, maybe a Buddhist.

There are religious fundamentalists that ought to be feared, in many places. I will raise arms if need, but I have no plans whatsoever on assaulting sites of worship. And i don't think my post was so vague, as to imply such a thing.

 

[Lady Laudanum]

Regardless of whether you agree with him or think he's a good person (neither of which I do), shooting him was wrong. The only time shooting someone is justified is when that person is an immediate threat to your safety.

My job used to involve a fair amount of helping with treating GSWs - plugging holes after people got shot. Even if we look at this matter from a utilitarian perspective, it doesn't make sense to shoot politicians. ERs and ambulance services are already overwhelmed to begin with. Treating trauma patients expends significant amounts of resources and can cause a delay in care for other patients who did absolutely nothing except get sick or get hurt at an inconvenient time.

Charlie Kirk's wife and kids are going to come across that video of him bleeding out and spasming before collapsing, at some point. No one deserves to see videos of their family member being killed get circulated on the internet like that. Even if you don't agree with their opinions and you don't even like them as people, no one deserves to be traumatized like that.

By killing Charlie Kirk, he becomes a martyr. Extreme conservatism is most likely going to get worse, from now on. Ever heard about the horseshoe theory? Extreme conservatism and liberalism are actually quite similar.

 

[R. A.]

the ONLY reasons why I feel bad about this situation is because the right WILL definitely use this as an excuse to:

•futher support the imposition of martial law
•hail charlie kirk as some sort of martyr
•continue to go after and harm left leaning or centrist creators/politicians

even if the person who murdered him ends up being exposed as a right winger/MAGA/conservative, they still will not sleep until they get "even". After all evil hates it when you use their own playbook.

this will not end well at all

exactly this.

Fuck him, he deserved it. Anybody trying to pull the "it's never justified" card simply doesn't feel the result of these people's politics coming to ruin every aspect of their lives. He literally died talking shit about trans people in society, during a time where the state is clamping down on basic rights and privileges we ought to be granted. "It's never justified" until you're ostracized from society for just being visible. "It's never justified" until you get hate crimed because of the lies and rhetoric spread about you. "It's never justified" until you're in a fucking camp.

I'm sick of playing the "we need to be nice to fascists" game. We're not the ones calling for government programs to mark as us insane and take our rights away. We're not the ones trying to find reasons they can't vote. We're not the ones creating entire manifestos of lies about us. Fuck you if you want to defend this guy.

what's up with people not understanding the difference between free speech and hate speech lol

Rest in piss Charlie, hope the second amendment was worth it dawg.

pwnt.

---

For all y'all probably too ignorant/unaffected by this kind of asshole's rhetoric to be boo-hooing about him dying, have some choice cuts (note this man was described as ONE OF THE MOST PROMINENT VOICES ON THE FAR RIGHT by the Washington Post. this wasn't your bigoted uncle Bob. This is the kind of person who created your bigoted uncle Bob):


social distancing actually is bullshit if the space is poorly ventilated but (real) masks work.


lol fucking ok


he literally wouldn't be sad about his own death


wanted women to be subservient to men


hahahahhahaha
he also talked shit about MLK Jr.


NOTHING TO SEE HERE


all muslims are evil, apparently


thought genocidal states were cool

---

do i feel bad when people get killed? yeah, and this guy and people like him are the indirect cause of a fuckton of people getting killed. reap what you fucking sow. i feel bad for the people traumatized seeing him get killed, especially his kids. that's it.

p.s. you know who else only had "opinions" and never killed anyone? Hitler lol

 

[Dejected 55]

Brother, no real political change has ever been achieved without violence. I wish I could live in your world of "Peace no matter what" but the government actively wants me, and people like myself to die. Now I may not particularly value my own life. But I do value the lives of those like me, and those who would be harmed by this administration and it's pawns. You can sit on the sidelines, do nothing. People like you will always exist. It's fine. Somebody of actual value will actually do something while you virtue signal about the tragedy of the death of a hatemongering bastard on a website about suicide. I won't be able to convince you, so I'm done talking to you. It does nothing.

But then that political change that was brought about from violence, how has that worked out? If you keep having to use more violence to solve the previous violence, at some point don't you start to wonder if one of the major problems isn't all the violence?

Speaking of sitting on the sidelines... "doing nothing" and just "virtue signalling" online... What exactly are you doing? I mean, are you not virtue signaling your position that it's cool to just shoot someone you don't like? Have you ever killed anyone? Have you ever killed anyone just because you didn't like what they said? I mean, you're advocating that is the thing that should be done... and chastising me for merely talking online about peace... but all you're doing is talking online about hate. I mean, I'm glad you're not out killing anyone like you seem to think is justified... but you're not really doing anything to make the world better either.

People could band together for the things they believe are right... more than half the people in this country don't vote in most elections... maybe you could get a lot of them together and have a coalition to fight against the things that you see as wrong. A lot less people would die if you did that.

I've seen people say a lot of stupid shit. I've seen people say a lot of hateful shit. I've never once thought that it would be a good idea to shoot them over it.

 

[TBONTB]

a democrat news anchor said something so concerning about this topic- "you cannot [think and say] without expecting action in return"

So much is concerning. For me as (ahem) a bit older, I notice the reference to a "democrat " news anchor. The idea a generation ago was that the news would be impartial...while politicians were partisan. Now it's the norm...which side of news so you follow? This polarization is such a loss for a civil, well run society. It's heartbreaking.

 

[theboy]

OP
With that post and your description, you're just encouraging hatred.

 

[PixelAngel]

Sorry to his loved ones, sincerely.

To his haters:
Score!

He literally said he was fine with this outcome, and for all the notable harm he enabled and spoke in favor of, I can't wait for his personal insignificance as anything more than a fascist bullshit-sprinkler to render him someone I have to Google the name of if I happen to need to reference him. The world is one horrible jerk shorter, and a little better off for it. I didn't wish him dead but that doesn't mean he didn't make the bed he's now forever resting in. This is the world he advocated for.

"But we need to condemn murder!" Cool. Consider it condemned. Never said I was into it as a practice, and gun violence is horrible and we should do more to prevent it. Charlie disagreed. I'm happy for him that he lived just long enough to see his work in practice.

 

[GhostInTheMachine]

what's up with people not understanding the difference between free speech and hate speech lol

A lot of these fence-sitters think that hate speech IS free speech, and are completely unable to parse the difference. It just screams privilege that they never have to deal with the fallout of this rhetoric being spread about them.

https://fxtwitter.com/StankMank/status/1595161081328336896

It gives off the same vibes as this meme.

https://images3.memedroid.com/images/UPLOADED663/5dc22dceaa28f.jpeg

They really think they're the guy in the middle of this edit, while ignoring the fact that one side is looking for the death of the other while the other just wants to live in peace. Hmm, maybe you're getting called nazis because you're acting like fucking nazis.

 

[R. A.]

A lot of these fence-sitters think that hate speech IS free speech, and are completely unable to parse the difference. It just screams privilege that they never have to deal with the fallout of this rhetoric being spread about them.

https://fxtwitter.com/StankMank/status/1595161081328336896

It gives off the same vibes as this meme.

https://images3.memedroid.com/images/UPLOADED663/5dc22dceaa28f.jpeg

They really think they're the guy in the middle of this edit, while ignoring the fact that one side is looking for the death of the other while the other just wants to live in peace. Hmm, maybe you're getting called nazis because you're acting like fucking nazis.

of course all the people who should be reading my previous post have coincidentally vanished.
it's like they think the electoral system is good and works, and not at all how the nazis came into power or anything.

...

waaaaiiiiiit.........

 

[ZMkxAVBQ]

This news actually distracted me from my own suicidality for about 4 hours.

I'd say he got what he deserved, but it was probably quick and painless.

 

[Satori Komeiji]

View attachment unnamed.webp

 

[Skallagrim]

Content, reasonably comfortable populations don't try to kill their leaders, their townhall speakers, their representatives.

It looks like this is part of a wider societal breakdown that the Western world (Western Europe, USA, and to some extent Canada and Australia) are experiencing. The systems that have been constructed worked for a while, and worked fairly well.

No longer.

Politics is now a dead end - no matter who you vote for, some corporation owns your politics and, by extension, you. The leaders want to spend even more on weapons to fight wars, and even less on social security nets to keep their own poorer citizens fed. Poorer citizens who's ranks swell year and year because certain people hoard masses of wealth and refuse to countenance any concept of the greater good; they worked a million times harder in their comfortable office than any man who spends 40 hours a week breaking his back digging holes in the road in rain, wind, or shine. So why shouldn't they be able to keep everything and watch the rest of the world go to hell?

60 years ago, one income could let you support a family and even allow you to buy a home. Now, two people both earning can barely get enough to scrape buy and owning your home is a pipe dream.

People want answers. And in such times populists carry the day. Trump is one, Kirk was another. People who's message is simple: It is the "other" who is your problem. The "other" being an immigrant, some ethnic minority group, feminists, environmentalists, or some other group.

But the thing about populists is that the blade they wield has two edges. It doesn't just radicalize the people who believe their messages, it radicalizes the people who don't. For them, the "other" becomes the opposite demographic. Indigenous locals, white people, males, or whatever.

Wedges are being driven between demographics which really need to live together and exist alongside each other. The problems both sides face are not truly caused by the other, but the culture wars breaking out between them are a useful distraction for those who's fault it really all is, and who are in a position to fix things, so they use the media, they use social media, and ham it all up.

Not surprising that people will see "the enemy" and decide to reach for a weapon...

 

[Dejected 55]

If hate speech isn't free speech, then there is no free speech.

Technically, we don't have free speech though... because slander and libel are not protected free speech, neither are inciting a riot or adult content aimed at children. So we do have recognized limits to free speech.

So let's start there. There is no such thing as free speech. Are you okay with this? I'm torn. Sometimes I think free speech should mean the freedom to say anything. Freedom to say anything doesn't mean freedom from consequences, though... it just means the government can't oppress you and you aren't supposed to be fired and such... but then, go tell your boss to fuck himself and see if you can't be fired for that free speech. I bet you can.

Let's accept some limits on free speech then. That's fine, if most people agree on libel and slander and yelling "fire" to start an exodus that hurts people when there is no fire... What about hate speech, though? That gets murky. What is hate speech? There is a very fine line to what some people consider hate speech and others don't.

Hate speech is like a lot of those pornography laws where the cops would say "I can't define what pornography is, but I know it when I see it." Lots of stuff was confiscated that arguably wasn't pornography. We still have that problem today with something like a naked statue from BC times in a modern museum and somebody complains about the nudity in public. Is that offensive? Is that a violation of decency laws? Much debate is had.

Hate speech is a tough thing to get everyone to agree upon. If someone says "I hate gays" is that hate speech? I think it is prejudice, small minded, and sad... but it's not hate speech. If someone says "I think all gays should be beaten to death." How about that? Definitely starting to be more offensive... but I think most would agree that someone saying "Gay people should all be beaten to death without exception and I encourage you to beat any one you come across on the street" as inciting violence. That last one is easy. The first two are tough.

Not having listened to Charlie Kirk very much, I can't say if his speech crosses that vague line into hate speech. But... let's say for the sake of argument it does. The reason why hate speech is something we want to stop and punish is why? Because it hurts people, right? Because people get hurt and killed over hate speech... so... it is at best illogical to think it is okay to have a random person shoot someone for using hate speech, when the whole reason we are against hate speech is because of the violence it may provoke. And oh by the way... if Kirk says something that we acknowledge as hate speech, and someone kills someone based on what he says... we arrest that person who did the killing, right? It's really hard to go back and punish Kirk for the speech unless he literally told that specific guy to kill for him, like Manson... and oh, if Kirk's hate speech gets him killed as it perhaps has? We capture and punish the dude who did that, right? And in neither situation should we be celebrating the deaths.

Once we start celebrating the death of our supposed enemies... we become no better than them.

 

[Eriktf]

im to European for some of his views

but celebrating that someone get murdered because of there political views are just wrong
he had a kid its not okey to kill that kids dad or kill his parents son or his wifes husband
you can kill yourself anybody else are not okey

and if anyone disagree with that my response is.
you are an hypocrite if you dont think it okey if i kill you because we disagree.

 

[katara]

i didnt like him and still dont, but just because he said something like that doesnt suddenly make violence against him justified. 2 wrongs dont make a right. no one should be shot just because they express their opinion. he wasnt in a position to pass pro gun laws anyway so what is even the point of this?

Ya I agree. I don't think supporting the right to own a gun means u deserve to die. I understand why people don't like guns. I think at this point gun violence is just a part of American culture along with mental illness because healthcare is so expensive. I for one hate living here. But I know some people enjoy it. I know in other countries where they have guns these types of things don't happen as much, so I really think gun violence is americas issue.

 

[Forever Sleep]

To be honest, I know so little about politics and this man. I suppose I always wonder what the true motivations are behind assassinations. Is it just some extremist with a gun? What are their motivations? While their extreme action likely won't justify murder, why did they feel compelled to take it?

I agree that it isn't by any means the ideal solution. That would be to have reasoned discussions about things we disagree with. To feel like the majority vote over various matters is represented by those who have power.

Do we feel that? Do we feel like those voted in represent us? Do we think our voting systems and governments are free of corruption? It sounds as if this man didn't have legislative power but, he was still presumably a powerful figure.

Are people resorting to violence because they feel like their voice is no longer strong enough to be heard? That's not to justify it but- it's important to consider. Just the way we try to work out the reason people are tempted into terrorism. These people are angry. What are they angry about? Do they have any right to be angry?

Sometimes it does just feel like our leaders are following their own heart. Or, they are doing things that directly benefit them. We vote these people in to serve us. It's true that they can't make everyone happy but, sometimes, do we wonder whether we live in a democracy at all? Is it the majority who truly get to decide or, the richest and most powerful?

For example, I couldn't believe that the UK prime minister took us into the Iraq war without taking a vote. I naively thought war was such a major decision that the leaders of a country would assertain the feelings of its people before it entered it. Different of course, if an ally is invaded. But, this sounded like an illegal invasion! It's stuff like that that truly shocks me. What power do the general population really have ultimately? Of course, violence isn't good but, neither is having no voice.

 

[noname223]

OP
With that post and your description, you're just encouraging hatred.

Maybe I would use different words now if I posted it again but it is already too late.
I also think he should not be killed for his opinion. It is a very dangerous moment for the American democracy. I don't feel schadenfreude. I feel sorry for his family and friends. In private he should be a completely different person. However, he died because of a polarized political environment he contributed to. I could very well imagine he never believed the things he spread to his audience. I think I would still include his quote about the second amendment. Maybe it could help people to rethink such a position.

Violence should not be a mean in democratic countries. It only fuels counterviolence and more polarization. It is a concerning development that assassinations occur more often in the US.

I can understand why people are angry on Charlie Kirk. But it only legitimizes violence against political opponents. Which is certainly not good for minorities.

 

[Captain Howdy]

Or the shooter was aiming at his head and missed, and got lucky to hit a vital artery. More likely than the shooter being a hunter and going for neck-shots

They definitely weren't aiming for the neck. My guess is they were going for the head. If the shooter is an average person, they will pick them up quickly. If it was a professional we will never know who it was.