Can meaning exist without God

[instormdrains]

Not making this thread to discuss if God is moral/ real. The way I see it if there is no God there cant be any reason to do anything. I think it makes sense to say that without God there is no inate or objective purpose or meaning as we were created by accident through evolution instead of God guiding the process. From there some people say you can create meaning but I dont think that makes sense. I think it causes infinite regression where even if you could create meaning and a point to life there is still no reason or point in doing so. If you wanted to devote your life to being an astronaut and studying rocket science gives your life value there is no real value in assigning value in the first place. Humans are just bundles of atoms so when a small bunch of atoms like dirt get kicked up by the wind it doesnt really matter so why do we act like the endeavors of humans do. It feels like humans are stumbling around in the dark and saying there is light but just because we are saying there is doesn't mean there is. In Christianity its even affirmed that if christ has not risen then being a chrisitan is pointless and should be pitied 1 corinthians 15 17-19. It seems like suicide is the only rational answer in a Godless world yet there is no value in action so its pointless to work towards killing yourself. If you are alive you will eat but there's no point in doing so but there's also no point in starving youself. What do you think about this thought process

 

[PanaxMan]

Not making this thread to discuss if God is moral/ real. The way I see it if there is no God there cant be any reason to do anything. I think it makes sense to say that without God there is no inate or objective purpose or meaning as we were created by accident through evolution instead of God guiding the process. From there some people say you can create meaning but I dont think that makes sense. I think it causes infinite regression where even if you could create meaning and a point to life there is still no reason or point in doing so. If you wanted to devote your life to being an astronaut and studying rocket science gives your life value there is no real value in assigning value in the first place. Humans are just bundles of atoms so when a small bunch of atoms like dirt get kicked up by the wind it doesnt really matter so why do we act like the endeavors of humans do. It feels like humans are stumbling around in the dark and saying there is light but just because we are saying there is doesn't mean there is. In Christianity its even affirmed that if christ has not risen then being a chrisitan is pointless and should be pitied 1 corinthians 15 17-19. It seems like suicide is the only rational answer in a Godless world yet there is no value in action so its pointless to work towards killing yourself. If you are alive you will eat but there's no point in doing so but there's also no point in starving youself. What do you think about this thought process

I'm a zen Buddhist and my answer is still no. Even trying to reach enlightenment is prepping for your death and the best possible option after death while you are still living. It's interesting how it is

 

[squiddedoutt]

Look into this guy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Camus#Absurdism
he gives a take about almost everything you said, especially with assigning meaning.

spoiler: his conclusion is that suicide is not the answer because people can find reasons to live even if everything is meaningless on its own

 

[fleshpuppet]

I think existential nihilism (as you've described it) makes the most sense given our current understanding of the universe. That being said, just because there is no objective meaning doesn't mean you can't live according to your values and what makes you happy. These are as equally pointless as doing nothing.

 

[HopeIess]

everything is based on religion... whether you believe in "god" or not it doesn't matter.

try to think about science: scientists (many of whom are atheist) study science so they can help to make the world a better place, but how do you define "better"? you must have a definition on "good" and "bad" and for all of them the definition of that align with the one that religious people have... so this makes them in fact religious.

even the fact that you wake up in the morning and decide that you want to help other people, or you donate money to charity... they all presume that you believe in values rooted in religion.

without religion, the world would be filled with people harming each other, lacking values and a shared purpose.

 

[instormdrains]

spoiler: his conclusion is that suicide is not the answer because people can find reasons to live even if everything is meaningless on its own

Ive heard about camu but I haven't really looked into it too much. I got a copy of the stranger just cus it look good i didnt even know bro wrote it.

I think existential nihilism (as you've described it) makes the most sense given our current understanding of the universe. That being said, just because there is no objective meaning doesn't mean you can't live according to your values and what makes you happy. These are as equally pointless as doing nothing.

I mean I guess. It feels like by doing things you want its like filling a bucket with a hole in it. Even if you want to fill it water will still pour out and the interaction would be pointless. I am Christian so thats why I do things. If I wasn't id probably just live a life of low ambition then die.

without religion, the world would be filled with people harming each other, lacking values and a shared purpose.

I do agree for morality to exist there must be an infallible source to anchor it into. If it was subjective and deemed by fallible creature then it wouldn't really mean anything

 

[fleshpuppet]

everything is based on religion... whether you believe in "god" or not it doesn't matter.

try to think about science: scientists (many of whom are atheist) study science so they can help to make the world a better place, but how do you define "better"? you must have a definition on "good" and "bad" and for all of them the definition of that align with the one that religious people have... so this makes them in fact religious.

even the fact that you wake up in the morning and decide that you want to help other people, or you donate money to charity... they all presume that you believe in values rooted in religion.

without religion, the world would be filled with people harming each other, lacking values and a shared purpose.

What makes you think every atheist's definition of good and bad aligns with that of religions? Not even different religious texts can agree on what is moral or not.

 

[HopeIess]

What makes you think every atheist's definition of good and bad aligns with that of religions? Not even different religious texts can agree on what is moral or not.

it's in their actions.

study and research medicine --> so people's life expectancy increase... but why people living longer is a positive thing? why does this action belongs to "good" and not "bad"?

why atheist dont go around and kill people whenever they get angry? imagine there was no prison time for homicide, they would probably still not do that, but why? becasue they believe is "bad", why? because religion say so.

 

[Lextyle]

Look into this guy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Camus#Absurdism
he gives a take about almost everything you said, especially with assigning meaning.

spoiler: his conclusion is that suicide is not the answer because people can find reasons to live even if everything is meaningless on its own

I think his reasoning behind claim that suicide is not the answer is too emotional and poetic rather than objective logical conclusion. I think that suicide can't be more absurd, than living despite the absurdity. Because after suicide everything ends and even the term absurd loses it's meaning so it can't be good or bad and it is just one of the solutions to the problem.

 

[Forever Sleep]

From a logical standpoint- it makes sense. Why is one a 'better' number than zero? It isn't- they're both numbers. But- we're emotional creatures. We live and die but- it does matter to us (usually) whether we are happy or content at least during that experience. I think people chase meaning as a kind of coping mechanism in life.

Of course- chasing a dream can make us miserable- when we don't achieve it. And living a carefree, hedonistic life might make others happy. For a lot of people though- I think it can help to have a path/ goal to follow.

So ultimately- isn't the question more: Does it matter to the individual whether they live an aimless, pointless feeling life or whether they try to find goals to work towards- that they hope will make them happy?

Whether there's a God or not though- I doubt it would be easy to establish a universal point to life.

 

[astroproto]

it's in their actions.

study and research medicine --> so people's life expectancy increase... but why people living longer is a positive thing? why does this action belongs to "good" and not "bad"?

why atheist dont go around and kill people whenever they get angry? imagine there was no prison time for homicide, they would probably still not do that, but why? becasue they believe is "bad", why? because religion say so.

Yeah, no. It's in their actions because they're not psychos. You don't have to be religious to be able to regulate your emotions.

Also, it's incredibly concerning that you think anger should naturally lead to homicide without religion. You do know that people can get angry without feeling violent, right?

Also, medicine is considered good because survival is a biological imperative, not because of religion.

 

[fleshpuppet]

it's in their actions.

study and research medicine --> so people's life expectancy increase... but why people living longer is a positive thing? why does this action belongs to "good" and not "bad"?

why atheist dont go around and kill people whenever they get angry? imagine there was no prison time for homicide, they would probably still not do that, but why? becasue they believe is "bad", why? because religion say so.

Our moral values are a product of our genetic disposition and cultural factors, predating even the most archaic religions. For instance, there's archaeological evidence to suggest that early humans cared for their disabled kin, suggesting that some intrinsic moral attitudes took precedence over the self. If anything, it was these preexisting factors which formed the moral framework of religions. This is evident in the fact that religions' frameworks reflect cultural beliefs at the time; in the bible, slavery, genocide and child sacrifice were endorsed, while divorce and homosexuality were condemned. Nowadays, there's generally been a complete reversal in these beliefs.

Also, a system of morality based on religion doesn't explain the diversity of moral beliefs that people hold. It may appear as though people work toward a goal out of a common idea of good or bad, but in reality they may hold a wide array of beliefs that all happen to coalesce into what is seen as a "good" outcome. For example, take two people who are handed a gun and told to shoot someone, and both refuse. One may refuse because they believe that murder is inherently wrong, while another doesn't because they think that that individual's death would inflict suffering. These are two fundamentally different moral beliefs, but lead to the same outcome.

 

[squiddedoutt]

I think his reasoning behind claim that suicide is not the answer is too emotional and poetic rather than objective logical conclusion. I think that suicide can't be more absurd, than living despite the absurdity. Because after suicide everything ends and even the term absurd loses it's meaning so it can't be good or bad and it is just one of the solutions to the problem.

i agree, i did get the impression the conclusion was more rooted in his natural human aversion towards suicide and not a purely logical sequence

 

[Lextyle]

i agree, i did get the impression the conclusion was more rooted in his natural human aversion towards suicide and not a purely logical sequence

there is no answer on how you should behave. You can literally behave in any way possible and it's all just same neutral actions that don't matter in the universe. If those actions cause suffering to you or people that doesn't make it objectively wrong, it just forces you to not do those actions because it's evolution and brain wiring. Nihilism can actually lead to wars but that doesn't make it objectively wrong.

 

[HopeIess]

Our moral values are a product of our genetic disposition and cultural factors, predating even the most archaic religions. For instance, there's archaeological evidence to suggest that early humans cared for their disabled kin, suggesting that some intrinsic moral attitudes took precedence over the self. If anything, it was these preexisting factors which formed the moral framework of religions. This is evident in the fact that religions' frameworks reflect cultural beliefs at the time; in the bible, slavery, genocide and child sacrifice were endorsed, while divorce and homosexuality were condemned. Nowadays, there's generally been a complete reversal in these beliefs.

i agree but you are confusing the world "religion" with christianity, islam, indusim, etc... these are the most common religions.

religion has always existed even before the common ones we know today... animism, totenism, ect...

to define what's right and what's not you need religion, there's no morality without it.

 

[nights5467]

Not making this thread to discuss if God is moral/ real. The way I see it if there is no God there cant be any reason to do anything. I think it makes sense to say that without God there is no inate or objective purpose or meaning as we were created by accident through evolution instead of God guiding the process. From there some people say you can create meaning but I dont think that makes sense. I think it causes infinite regression where even if you could create meaning and a point to life there is still no reason or point in doing so. If you wanted to devote your life to being an astronaut and studying rocket science gives your life value there is no real value in assigning value in the first place. Humans are just bundles of atoms so when a small bunch of atoms like dirt get kicked up by the wind it doesnt really matter so why do we act like the endeavors of humans do. It feels like humans are stumbling around in the dark and saying there is light but just because we are saying there is doesn't mean there is. In Christianity its even affirmed that if christ has not risen then being a chrisitan is pointless and should be pitied 1 corinthians 15 17-19. It seems like suicide is the only rational answer in a Godless world yet there is no value in action so its pointless to work towards killing yourself. If you are alive you will eat but there's no point in doing so but there's also no point in starving youself. What do you think about this thought process

I'm an atheist. I was raised with a (barely) Christian mother and a strict Muslim father, leading me to reject both of their worldviews. I can't ever remember believing that there was purpose or meaning to life and I also can't remember ever being bothered by it.

Assuming that you were taught Christianity from your family at a young age, you've probably felt a religious sense of meaning and purpose your whole life. I want to try and explain my atheist worldview to you. I don't want to kill myself because life is meaningless and useless - I want to kill myself because it fucking sucks and I feel like shit here.

I think that human decisions are ultimately driven by emotions and feelings of everyone involved in a decision. I don't ask myself what the point is in eating if this is all a coincidence and life is meaningless anyway - I eat to remove the deeply unpleasant feeling of hunger in my stomach. I don't pursue a lucrative career to fulfill some greater meaning or purpose beyond meeting my financial needs and gaining social approval.

"It seems like suicide is the only rational answer in a Godless world" - I think you overestimate how much of our decision making is actually based on logic and reason. People generally don't kill themselves because it invokes negative emotion to even think of it. Most decisions people make during the day and most beliefs that people hold are not based in logic whatsoever - and that's not me trying to sound superior, because it also applies to me. It's just human nature, it seems.

everything is based on religion... whether you believe in "god" or not it doesn't matter.

try to think about science: scientists (many of whom are atheist) study science so they can help to make the world a better place, but how do you define "better"? you must have a definition on "good" and "bad" and for all of them the definition of that align with the one that religious people have... so this makes them in fact religious.

even the fact that you wake up in the morning and decide that you want to help other people, or you donate money to charity... they all presume that you believe in values rooted in religion.

without religion, the world would be filled with people harming each other, lacking values and a shared purpose.

You aren't even trying to think outside of your own perspective, and that's a shame.

Not all scientists became a scientist to make the world a better place. Some just are genuinely interested in whatever they study, among other reasons.

How can you be certain that religion is the source of humanity's morality? How many of those "morals rooted in religion" are just natural instincts that existed before far before religion? Are you sure that before the Bible or Quran or whatever book belongs to your religion that there was total barbarianism and lawlessness on the Earth?

If I was a scientist because I wanted to make the world a better place, what I consider better doesn't necessarily align with religious values. Consider the abortion pill, Mifepristone. Contrary to religious values, I believe creating this medication is a benefit to society and makes it easier for women to access abortions when they need them. Whole teams of scientists are involved with making new medicines- surely some of those scientists that worked on Mifepristone were motivated by the fact that they felt they were making the world better? Why would your god create people whose moral compasses had to be fine tuned by a 1000 page book?

 

[Counsuffer]

can meaning exist, even with god?

 

[Serena fuga]

Look into this guy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Camus#Absurdism
he gives a take about almost everything you said, especially with assigning meaning.

spoiler: his conclusion is that suicide is not the answer because people can find reasons to live even if everything is meaningless on its own

People only think about suicide when they no longer find a reason to live, when the suffering becomes unbearable, and some people won't be able to understand that, whether they have faith or not!

 

[SoverignDreamer97]

Good question, but... suppose that it was God who subjected all creation to futility.

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. (Romans 8:20-23)

What's it to anyone that He exists, given that without faith it is impossible to please Him; that all who come to God must believe that He is, and that He's a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him? (Hebrews 11:6)

If you are without faith, and have no desire to seek God, or to have anything to do with Him, His followers, or Christianity itself, then you shouldn't concern yourself with whether or not the biblical claims are true, and that God exists; so long as you believe not on the Son, you're going to be separated from Him and His followers regardless.

For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son, Christ Jesus of Nazareth; He died on the cross, His blood was shed for the remission of sins, and then He rose on the third day, that whosoever believes on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." (John 3:16-21)

But if you do desire to be with Him, then by all means believe on the Son. For the fact is, suicide is not a sin which leads to separation, but rather... unbelief.

People only think about suicide when they no longer find a reason to live, when the suffering becomes unbearable, and some people won't be able to understand that, whether they have faith or not!

The writing is on the wall.

 

[thefirstluminary]

Look into this guy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Camus#Absurdism
he gives a take about almost everything you said, especially with assigning meaning.

spoiler: his conclusion is that suicide is not the answer because people can find reasons to live even if everything is meaningless on its own

but you still gonna die at some point it's like saying live your life to the fullest or something and then what just nothing? some people lived their whole life suffering and then bam they are dead now why even being attracted to the current life if it's all pain and gonna end at some point

 

[bl33ding_heart]

Meaning exists as long as the ability to create it exists. And what actually holds meaning isn't concretely definitive by anything. It's just up to personal interpretation.

 

[ImInPain]

Not making this thread to discuss if God is moral/ real. The way I see it if there is no God there cant be any reason to do anything. I think it makes sense to say that without God there is no inate or objective purpose or meaning as we were created by accident through evolution instead of God guiding the process. From there some people say you can create meaning but I dont think that makes sense. I think it causes infinite regression where even if you could create meaning and a point to life there is still no reason or point in doing so. If you wanted to devote your life to being an astronaut and studying rocket science gives your life value there is no real value in assigning value in the first place. Humans are just bundles of atoms so when a small bunch of atoms like dirt get kicked up by the wind it doesnt really matter so why do we act like the endeavors of humans do. It feels like humans are stumbling around in the dark and saying there is light but just because we are saying there is doesn't mean there is. In Christianity its even affirmed that if christ has not risen then being a chrisitan is pointless and should be pitied 1 corinthians 15 17-19. It seems like suicide is the only rational answer in a Godless world yet there is no value in action so its pointless to work towards killing yourself. If you are alive you will eat but there's no point in doing so but there's also no point in starving youself. What do you think about this thought process

I am agnostic and do not live life on the basis that there is a God. If anything, the best I can do is make the world a better place for the people I share it with, and the people that will come after me. I do not know the purpose of everyone's existence in the first place and there really might not be any, but we are here now so I try my best to make it easier and more pleasant for everyone else.

I don't really think there is a purpose and it's a tad distressing to think about where this all came from and why people must exist, but I don't think about it daily and try my very best anyway (as much as my depression lets me). I think the meaning is to create something fulfilling and to make the future better ig, but it's not like there is an end goal or some time that the cycle finally ends and everyone's efforts are finally worth something big and grand. Sorry that this is a confusing answer.

it's in their actions.

study and research medicine --> so people's life expectancy increase... but why people living longer is a positive thing? why does this action belongs to "good" and not "bad"?

why atheist dont go around and kill people whenever they get angry? imagine there was no prison time for homicide, they would probably still not do that, but why? becasue they believe is "bad", why? because religion say so.

I am agnostic but what stops me from doing anything "bad" is a deep innate feeling of empathy for others and some sort of moral compass that makes me feel horrendous if I was to inflict any sort of suffering onto another person. I believe what drives me towards good is the pleasantness I can feel when I make someone's life any better and I am driven away from "evil" by the unbearable emotions that happen as a consequence of hurting others. This is only my experience. I guess I am already automatically "punished" with extreme guilt and sadness if I were to do anything harmful to another person and that is why I do not do bad even if I often don't think of divine punishment. I cannot say whether there is a God or not but even if I knew for a fact He did not exist and that I would not be punished for any wrongdoing, I would still refrain from wrongdoing purely to not hurt others (because I would not want to be treated that way). Sorry if this is worded poorly.