Why aren’t gun stores charged for enabling murders and mass shootings?

[sserafim]

I was inspired to make this post due to my comment in the Kenneth Law thread. Why aren't gun stores charged for enabling murders and mass shootings?

 

[Relic]

These events, for the governments, are valuable political manipulation tools. For example, global digital surveillance was born from 9/11. Whatever the scale is, every single one of these events is used to push new laws, often twisting the facts. Looking from the outside, it seems that FOIA is a serious pain in their collective ass. As gun stores operate according to regulations, the responsibility is on someone not currently in the room. Supernanny is just waiting for the opportunity to slap the pacifier off the public's face.

 

[WhiteRabbit]

I wonder if a gun store owner set up shop to specifically sell to people they knew or strongly suspected would commit murder, would they be charged? That scenario is more in line with what KL did.

 

[wait.what]

In the U.S., gun sales of various kinds are considered legal under the 2nd amendment of the Constitution, so long as certain rules are followed. Outside the U.S., people just outlaw things they don't want in their countries. The idea of creating de facto criminal laws through the back door of civil law just sounds like adding annoying extra steps.

Don't ask me to explain Canada. (Law is Canadian, isn't he …?) Much like WWI and drawing decent anime girl eyes, Canada is much more complicated than it first appears.

 

[sserafim]

I wonder if a gun store owner set up shop to specifically sell to people they knew or strongly suspected would commit murder, would they be charged? That scenario is more in line with what KL did.

Isn't murder worse than suicide though? Murder involves taking someone else's life, suicide is just taking your own.

 

[WhiteRabbit]

Isn't murder worse than suicide though? Murder involves taking someone else's life, suicide is just taking your own.

Sure, murder is worse.

I'm just saying that gun store owners are people selling guns for various activities, if someone commits a crime with a gun I don't really see how the owner would be at fault unless they knew the crime was going to be committed beforehand.

KL wasn't just some guy selling SN for sausage making and suicidal people happened to buy from him. He knew the demographic he was selling to. The difference is intent.

 

[Relic]

suicide is just taking your own

Private suicides can not be used for anything, they are just a stain on government's pants. In addition, they have to deal with the public's attention and go after substances that can not be really regulated without some major problems. That makes them hate people even more.
Crime is a billion dollar business, and KL just got in the way, they won't let the opportunity go to waste. Obviously nobody is going to touch businesses authorized by the government.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Even people opposed to guns find lobbying against them more exhausting than targeting small websites or individuals involved. If one had a savior complex and wanted to best signal their virtues, it's simply too difficult to go after Big Guns, at least in the US.

 

[Pluto]

It's interesting that around 60% of US firearm deaths are suicides. Statistically, Fixthe26 would be thousands of times more effective going after the NRA rather than a little internet community. But I suspect they won't be doing that.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I'm from the UK, so it's different here but, I get the impression US citizens see it as their right to own firearms. It's written into their constitution. The emphasis though is placed on the right to defend yourself. I think there would be protests if citizens weren't allowed to arm themselves for a start.

Put it this way though- if someone went into a gun store and said- where abouts do I need to shoot myself in order to ensure death? Do you think you could show me how to grip and aim the gun please? And the assistant went ahead and showed them and sold them the gun and ammunition- I think they would be in trouble if the person then CTB with it. A hardware store couldn't get into trouble for selling someone a length of rope. But- if they either tied a noose in it or, showed the person how to tie a noose- knowing they intended to end their life with it- I imagine they would be in trouble.

Kenneth Law may have been ok if he'd simply sold a product. From what I understand though, he also gave people specific instructions on how to use it to end their own life- knowing that's why they were buying it. I'd say that is assisting a suicide. I'm grateful to him because I bought from him but I simply think he became overconfident and careless. He didn't need to tell people how to use it. People buying it for that purpose likely already knew what to do with it. Plus- at least at the start, he didn't seem too bothered about selling to minors so- I imagine that's where they will press hardest for a murder charge.

 

[Relic]

From what I understand though, he also gave people specific instructions on how to use it to end their own life- knowing that's why they were buying it. I'd say that is assisting a suicide.

Assisting should just stay at being physically present at the scene, or the government's greasy mitts have gone too far. Somehow there are laws for "thought crime" in several countries, mainly in Europe. How the fuck did that happen, it was supposed to be a joke.

 

[ijustwishtodie]

Because, by that logic, people who procreate should also be charged for creating a sentient being who will inevitably die and pro lifers won't ever follow that kind of reasoning and conclusion

 

[Slow_Farewell]

Anything can be a tool used to either end a life or take one's own, and people can always present a pretext to get over certain red tape in order to circumnavigate red tape to acquire what they need to.

Specific to the Kenneth Law thing, I only know what i've read online so far, which is apparently he ran websites and sold stuff to people.
He didn't seem to have coerced them or force them into purchasing the products.

 

[sserafim]

I'm from the UK, so it's different here but, I get the impression US citizens see it as their right to own firearms. It's written into their constitution. The emphasis though is placed on the right to defend yourself. I think there would be protests if citizens weren't allowed to arm themselves for a start.

Put it this way though- if someone went into a gun store and said- where abouts do I need to shoot myself in order to ensure death? Do you think you could show me how to grip and aim the gun please? And the assistant went ahead and showed them and sold them the gun and ammunition- I think they would be in trouble if the person then CTB with it. A hardware store couldn't get into trouble for selling someone a length of rope. But- if they either tied a noose in it or, showed the person how to tie a noose- knowing they intended to end their life with it- I imagine they would be in trouble.

Kenneth Law may have been ok if he'd simply sold a product. From what I understand though, he also gave people specific instructions on how to use it to end their own life- knowing that's why they were buying it. I'd say that is assisting a suicide. I'm grateful to him because I bought from him but I simply think he became overconfident and careless. He didn't need to tell people how to use it. People buying it for that purpose likely already knew what to do with it. Plus- at least at the start, he didn't seem too bothered about selling to minors so- I imagine that's where they will press hardest for a murder charge.

Why is there a right to own firearms but no right to die? I think that the right to die is the ultimate libertarian and bodily autonomy right

 

[Forever Sleep]

Why is there a right to own firearms but no right to die? I think that the right to die is the ultimate libertarian and bodily autonomy right

Ask the politicians. . I don't know. I don't really know why some countries allow access to firearms more freely than others. It's not impossible in the UK but, it's more difficult and less common for people to have guns. Personally, I'm grateful for that, although it would be useful in our suicidal circumstances.

 

[derpyderpins]

I was inspired to make this post due to my comment in the Kenneth Law thread. Why aren't gun stores charged for enabling murders and mass shootings?

I hate stepping into sensitive topics, but I can't help myself here. Whenever gun ownership / mass shootings come up in the US, I need to point out that gun ownership does not correlate well with violence worldwide. Countries like Finland and Switzerland have similar gun ownership to the US but a tiny, tiny fraction of the gun crime.

The United States is a broken hellscape culturally and in terms of mental health, but the existence of guns is not the problem. There are a large number of defensive uses of firearms each year. I know it's easy to think "gun owner" and picture a douchebag frat kid from a rich family in a MAGA hat, but I think about a poor single mom living in a dangerous part of Chicago or Atlanta, where there is a ton of violence and the police are not going to answer her call in time to help her. A gun is the only possible equalizer, and the gangs that commit most of the violence will get guns whether they're legal or not.

Why is there a right to own firearms but no right to die? I think that the right to die is the ultimate libertarian and bodily autonomy right

There absolutely should be. You aren't free if you can't chose your own fate. That's a much deeper discussion, though.

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Why is there a right to own firearms but no right to die? I think that the right to die is the ultimate libertarian and bodily autonomy right

Somebody needs to go back in time and give the Founding Fathers some existential dread or some other reason to be suicidal so that they'll feel compelled to put the right to die in the Bill of Rights or something.

 

[Scythe]

Aside from the gun stores aren't selling to people they know will use them for crimes agrument. People are going after the gun laws, they do see a problem with this in America. They are just smarter about it than the pro-lifers. They know to go to the root of the issue, unlike pro-lifers who only see this forum. There's also the fact that we are easy to blame. Gun stores are just stores at the end of the day, no different from that comvience store that sold the rope which hung someone. Sure they sell weapons, but people still see them as just a store. While we are unique and depressing, people only see that, and well they need something to blame. We are prefect for that, we have the unpopular opinion, we must be wrong, we are evil. So they point their fingers at us, we are also easier to take down so people can pretend they killed the villain.

 

[Ferdinand Bardamu]

I thought they were charged?

 

[PPEcel]

Surprised that no one mentioned the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act of 2005.

 

[sserafim]

Surprised that no one mentioned the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act of 2005.

What's that? I've never heard of it

 

[DarkRange55]

Do you know that approximately half of all the gun deaths are suicides?

 

[DarkRange55]

 

[EvisceratedJester]

Because Kenneth Law was knowingly selling SN to people who were planning to use it to kill themselves, meanwhile gun store owners are just selling guns to whoever without really knowing what they are going to use it for. As a result, they cannot be held liable for anything in the eyes of the law. If a gunstore owner where to knowingly sell a gun to someone who was planning to use it to harm themself or others and there is proof of this, then they would be arrested and charged, just like KL.

 

[sserafim]

Do you know that approximately half of all the gun deaths are suicides?

No I didn't but aren't guns usually used to commit murder and isn't murder worse than suicide?

 

[falling_snow]

It's interesting that around 60% of US firearm deaths are suicides. Statistically, Fixthe26 would be thousands of times more effective going after the NRA rather than a little internet community. But I suspect they won't be doing that.

I didn't know about Fixthe26, but I honestly laughed. Like I'm sorry for you, but really, it made me chuckle. Dumb anti-choicers, they always manage to get a smile in my face...

 

[DarkRange55]

No I didn't but aren't guns usually used to commit murder and isn't murder worse than suicide?

Statistically most gun deaths are suicide. Guns are also used for hunting, sport (like skeet shooting) and defense. I don't remember the exact statistic but it's something like 74% of gun murders are criminals from the black market shooting each other.

If you want a pragmatic reason for guns to be legal: The fact that guns are legal here contributes to the high-quality of our professional armed forces.

I'm not arguing about firearm regulations. I'm simply responding to your question about guns being used for murder.

Sometimes, unfortunately, you do need to kill somebody (war, crime, ect) and even though it is a grim task, there needs to be an instrument or a tool to do that.

Watch that video it takes a very middle ground stance on it.

No I didn't but aren't guns usually used to commit murder and isn't murder worse than suicide?

Also, guns are legal in Japan, but they are just regulated to the extreme. They actually do have gun clubs that you must become a member of in order to purchase one but I can't remember the exact details.
I'm all in favor of regulation of firearms, but I think that completely banning guns is similar to criminalizing all drugs - it ignores the underlying cause.

I think that there's an old saying, "the greatest mass murders in history are governments." And this is why the Second Amendment exists, so that people can defend themselves against any future form of tyranny. (However, I'm not a constitutional law experts and my understanding is you can make the argument that people needed guns for hunting back then. But even today there is still quite a few people that live in rural areas that need to have access to firearms).

No I didn't but aren't guns usually used to commit murder and isn't murder worse than suicide?

I don't think you need to have a nuclear weapon. I can't really foresee a reason that you would need a grenade or a rocket launcher. Do I think that certain people can be trusted with fully automatic guns? Yes. I do. And in fact some people are, you can get a special license for that. My friend's uncle is one of them, he has an old Tommy gun and shit, he's a collector but he has fully automatic working weapons. So its not like nobody has them. There is a license for them and I cannot remember the exact details off the top of my head but it's something like as long as you are licensed and they were manufactured prior to 1986 or something. I have no problem with someone of sound mind and a sound record owning a machine gun, I really don't. Some of the main reasons that people have problems with guns are not even problems with guns; the guns are not the problem in this situation. Gang violence is a problem of drug policy, not guns. Because the guns aren't gonna go away. There is no magic wand that we're gonna wave and make the guns go away. Especially not for the criminals. Its not really an option, I don't know its discussed like it is. It's not an option because it just wont happen. Even you dragged people out on the street and shot them in the head if you found guns in their house, it wouldn't happen. Also some of the things that grab headlines, kid's suicides, children shooting themselves because nobody really gives a fuck about what I do anything an adult kills themselves. But if it a kid kills himself with a gun or goes into a school and shoots up a bunch of kids, it's the gun's fault. No, there's a problem here, its a combination of mental health and poor parenting. I'm sorry but those boys that shot up Columbine, somebody should have known that there's something wrong with these kids. This is not a sudden thing, this a gradual process falling further and further into an insane mental state. And I believe that one of them got the gun from their father or uncle or whatever, if you have someone that you don't think is of sound mind in your home you should have your guns locked up securely in a safe. And if you're incapable of judging who does or does not have a sound mind then you shouldn't be owning a gun which is why I suggest that we have mental health requirements for purchasing firearms. I think we should have mental health requirements for a lot of things and I think we could kill several birds with one stone with that. You have to have a driver's license to drive a car, you should have a sanity license to own a gun. I believe in concealed carry. I don't think open carry is necessary. I don't really see how that is necessary for you. I'm not gonna out of my way to ban that but I wouldn't vote for it if it came up on the ballet. I just don't think it's necessary. It would freak too many people and there would be too much confusion as to who is a good guy and who isn't. That would be my concern.

Watch Penn & Teller: Bullshit! Season 3 Episode 7: Gun Control - Full show on Paramount Plus

The fearless hosts tackle the facts, the stats, and the truth to find out who's right in the raging controversy over the Second Amendment and gun control.

www.paramountplus.com

 

[PPEcel]

What's that? I've never heard of it

A federal law that limits the liability of gun manufacturers or sellers when their products are used to commit crimes.

 

[DarkRange55]

The reason your government wants to disarm you is because they want to do things to your body that you would not approve of

 

[sserafim]

The reason your government wants to disarm you is because they want to do things to your body that you would not approve of

You sound like a conspiracy theorist hahaha