Why are these people so inhumane when it comes to suicide?

[Blue Moon]

Then I got into college and I had a bad experience that I won't go into. When I went to tell her about this experience, she dismissed it and wasn't sympathetic at all to my pain. After that, she refused to see me anymore. She just cut me off. I hadn't done anything to her and this experience wasn't my fault, but she made me feel like it was. That's probably one of the reasons why I never talk about it.

That sounds awful. I'm sorry you had to go through that.

 

[BlueWidow]

Well according to this forum ALL therapists are the scum of the earth & dont help, ALL meds are damaging (of course i know many are!) & only about money/ Corruption & big Pharma, ALL psychiatry is flawed. So lets shoot all therapists, throw out every single book on psychiatry & mental illness & re-invent an entire new system of therapeutic or medical treatment for trauma/ mental illness from scratch- it may take some time though....

I don't think anyone on here is saying that. A lot of people on this forum have been deeply hurt and scarred by psychiatry and the mental health systems of our respective countries. I think we're all on here expressing our frustration and other feelings that we can't express anywhere else.

And whoever it was that said people can only save themselves, that sounds like you're blaming people on this forum for their own problems. I can't speak for anyone else, but I've tried and tried to overcome my problems and I've never succeeded. But it wasn't for lack of trying, or for lack of seeing therapists or other doctors. In my case, (and the cases of many other people on this forum I suspect) it was the system that let me down. I had therapists that I worked with. I'm not sure why, but in my case, I seem to have had a lot of really strange therapists. I've quit a lot of therapists because they did something really strange and it just freaked me out. I wrote a thread about it.

I think many people on this forum have been let down by therapists and other doctors and their promises that medication would make them feel better, or their promises the therapy or other treatments would make them feel better, and just the whole psychiatry system, and maybe even the whole system of medicine in general. I know I feel very let down by it, and it wasn't because I didn't work with the people or follow their instructions. I did that for years and I never got any better. There are just some people the system can't help I guess. It makes you bitter and angry when you've been trying for years and years to get help and you see people in the medical industry and the Psychiatric industry promising that they'll help you, but all they offer are the same old treatments and therapies that you've already tried that didn't help you before. And when something doesn't help you, they always blame it on you. They never admit any blame of their own. They never admit the drug they put you on caused you any damage. They never admit that the things they did didn't help you. In every case, it's because you didn't try hard enough or you don't want to get well.

 

[Ironweed]

What do you mean? He was anti coercive psychiatry and I think that's great. He believed in peoples right to choose, including suicide and drugs, and wanted both client/therapist to be equals when they communicated without risk of involuntary hospitalization. I'd say he was pretty much against everything related to psychiatry including "mental illness" labels. The only thing I've read so far that I disagree with him on is that he didn't agree with euthanasia for some odd reason.

I mean he actually wrote a book called Antipsychiatry: Quackery Squared. Doesn't get much more opposed to antipsychiatry than that, does it? I agree that he stood for everything you say he stood for, it is just that he thought antipsychiatry was not in fact any of those things. He may have been right, he may have been wrong, but he clearly rejected antipsychiatry, at least as he conceived of it. From the GoodReads page:

For this reason, Szasz rejected, and continues to reject, psychiatry and antipsychiatry with equal vigor. Subsuming his work under the rubric of antipsychiatry betrays and negates it just as surely and effectively as subsuming it under the rubric of psychiatry. In Antipsychiatry: Quackery Squared, Szasz powerfully argues that his writings belong to neither psychiatry nor antipsychiatry. They stem from conceptual analysis, social-political criticism, and common sense.

Obviously the blurb is from before his death in 2012, but the rest of it seems correct as to his beliefs. Were he still alive he'd doubtless take strong exception to the inclusion of his name on the antipsychiatry Wikipedia page and elsewhere where the idea is discussed. He wanted nothing to do with it. For some things Wikipedia can be relied upon, but for anything controversial I'd not trust anything posted there without first confirming it. Like this.

In the interest of full disclosure, I have not read Antipsychiatry: Quackery Squared, only Suicide Prohibition: The Shame of Medicine, and I'm pretty sure that was where I first read about his disdain for antipsychiatry.

 

[OneBigBlur]

Similarly, psychologists (or at least my sister) are taught to speak in that detached way. It's to keep not only themselves from becoming too close, but to keep potentially dangerous clients from getting too close to them. It is really easy for them to overdo, she does it even just talking to me.

The detached way that they approach their clients is the most damaging of all and they don't realize it, I've told this to my own therapist but she will not understand. Repeating the same phrases over and over like robots is not helpful, it makes people like me feel like we are objects who aren't worthy of someones attention and emotions. I cried several times in my last session and that's the first time I've done that in my entire adult life in front of anyone, my therapist just stared like a statue like they usually do or gave some generic phrase. If they want to stay detached and stick with scripted dialogue, that's fine, but they should not expect their clients to trust them or consider them to have any kind of bond. What they consider the "therapeutic relationship" means very little to me personally, it just reminds me that I have another person in front of me that doesn't care beyond a superficial level. I am going to CTB regardless of how my therapist acts but I would've at least liked to have been able to be completely open and treated like an actual person for my remaining days. Being treated with dignity and compassion is too much to ask for apparently.

I mean he actually wrote a book called Antipsychiatry: Quackery Squared. Doesn't get much more opposed to antipsychiatry than that, does it? I agree that he stood for everything you say he stood for, it is just that he thought antipsychiatry was not in fact any of those things. He may have been right, he may have been wrong, but he clearly rejected antipsychiatry, at least as he conceived of it. From the GoodReads page:


Obviously the blurb is from before his death in 2012, but the rest of it seems correct as to his beliefs. Were he still alive he'd doubtless take strong exception to the inclusion of his name on the antipsychiatry Wikipedia page and elsewhere where the idea is discussed. He wanted nothing to do with it. For some things Wikipedia can be relied upon, but for anything controversial I'd not trust anything posted there without first confirming it. Like this.

In the interest of full disclosure, I have not read Antipsychiatry: Quackery Squared, only Suicide Prohibition: The Shame of Medicine, and I'm pretty sure that was where I first read about his disdain for antipsychiatry.

I'll have to get back to you on this as I'm still early into some of his books, thanks for the reply.

 

[Severen]

When I used the word "pseudo science", I was talking about therapy being a cure or treatment for everyone, by the way. I'm sick and tired of brainless zombies, always telling people like me to go to therapy or get more vitamin D etc like I'm a stubborn idiot... I did not mean therapy is useless or harmful for everyone in existence. Everyone is different. I'm me. Some people are like me. I'm not clone #8724875427385. Even when it comes to antibiotics, some people are allergic to penicillin... When it comes to mental and physical health, a unique approach should be taken depending on every individual if even possible.

 

[OneBigBlur]

When I used the word "pseudo science", I was talking about therapy being a cure or treatment for everyone, by the way. I'm sick and tired of brainless zombies, always telling people like me to go to therapy or get more vitamin D etc like I'm a stubborn idiot... I did not mean therapy is useless or harmful for everyone in existence. Everyone is different. I'm me. Some people are like me. I'm not clone #8724875427385. Even when it comes to antibiotics, some people are allergic to penicillin... When it comes to mental and physical health, a unique approach should be taken depending on every individual if even possible.

I've explained this to my therapist as well, that most of the people who come there for serious problems don't lack insight into their problems. I don't need people to tell me to take said vitamins/medication, I've done the research, or tell me to do breathing, mindfulness, [insert whatever generic advice here that doesn't actually work]. The worst part is that they are constantly promoting types of therapy that have been proven NOT to work and yet they still treat it like it is the golden child of "treatment".

For example: CBT

Let's fact-check this by seeing how it aligns with the findings of the largest and arguably best RCT behind the guidelines. The RCT was funded by the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs and the Department of Defense and published in the Journal of the American Medical Association.6 It studied 255 female veterans. The most frequent trauma was sexual trauma followed by physical assault.


Patients received a "highly recommended" form of CBT (prolonged exposure therapy) or a placebo treatment.

Here is what the study found:

• Nearly 40 percent of patients who started CBT dropped out. They voted with their feet about its value.
• Sixty percent of the patients still had PTSD after completing treatment.
• One hundred percent of the patients were clinically depressed after completing treatment.
• At a six-month follow-up, patients who received CBT were no better than those in the control group.
• Nineteen serious "adverse events" (suicide attempts, psychiatric hospitalizations) occurred over the course of the study.
• The authors noted that patients "may need more treatment than the relatively small number of sessions typically provided in a clinical trial."

I did not choose this study as an example because it is a poor study. I chose it because it is arguably the best. In fact, two-thirds of patients who receive APA's "highly recommended" treatments still have PTSD after treatment.7

"Clear information on best treatments and what to expect of them." Really?

Full article can be found here(Article may not work on TOR):

Selling Bad Therapy to Trauma Victims

It takes more than 20 sessions, or about six months of weekly therapy, before therapy patients start to improve.

www.psychologytoday.com

 

[Severen]

I've explained this to my therapist as well, that most of the people who come there for serious problems don't lack insight into their problems. I don't need people to tell me to take said vitamins/medication, I've done the research, or tell me to do breathing, mindfulness, [insert whatever generic advice here that doesn't actually work]. The worst part is that they are constantly promoting types of therapy that have been proven NOT to work and yet they still treat it like it is the golden child of "treatment".

For example: CBT



Full article can be found here(Article may not work on TOR):

Selling Bad Therapy to Trauma Victims

It takes more than 20 sessions, or about six months of weekly therapy, before therapy patients start to improve.

www.psychologytoday.com

Yeah, if only all those mentally ill people in San Francisco simply saw a therapist and exposed themselves to more sunshine. :P Like that one woman I saw in a Burger King in San Francisco once with her tits out and screaming at people in gibberish... If I purchased some vitamin D supplements for her...I could have saved her life... /S How is that any different than A) telling people they are complete morons or B) telling them to go fuck themselves or C) people being so religious to the point of living in a fantasy MMORPG instead of the real world. Your character just needs a certain magic spell and the curse will go away...

 

[TAW122]

I don't think anyone on here is saying that. A lot of people on this forum have been deeply hurt and scarred by psychiatry and the mental health systems of our respective countries. I think we're all on here expressing our frustration and other feelings that we can't express anywhere else.

And whoever it was that said people can only save themselves, that sounds like you're blaming people on this forum for their own problems. I can't speak for anyone else, but I've tried and tried to overcome my problems and I've never succeeded. But it wasn't for lack of trying, or for lack of seeing therapists or other doctors. In my case, (and the cases of many other people on this forum I suspect) it was the system that let me down. I had therapists that I worked with. I'm not sure why, but in my case, I seem to have had a lot of really strange therapists. I've quit a lot of therapists because they did something really strange and it just freaked me out. I wrote a thread about it.

I think many people on this forum have been let down by therapists and other doctors and their promises that medication would make them feel better, or their promises the therapy or other treatments would make them feel better, and just the whole psychiatry system, and maybe even the whole system of medicine in general. I know I feel very let down by it, and it wasn't because I didn't work with the people or follow their instructions. I did that for years and I never got any better. There are just some people the system can't help I guess. It makes you bitter and angry when you've been trying for years and years to get help and you see people in the medical industry and the Psychiatric industry promising that they'll help you, but all they offer are the same old treatments and therapies that you've already tried that didn't help you before. And when something doesn't help you, they always blame it on you. They never admit any blame of their own. They never admit the drug they put you on caused you any damage. They never admit that the things they did didn't help you. In every case, it's because you didn't try hard enough or you don't want to get well.

Well said. I myself have been through therapists, counselors, and such over the course of my 29+ years alive. Albeit there was a time where I reluctantly refused to see one and dismissed every suggestion to see one as I knew it was full of shit. Nobody really listened or believed me and then I realized I was alone. Somehow during that 7+ years of avoiding psychotherapy, counseling, and what not, I actually found my own copes and solutions. Come to think of it, therapy and counseling did little, if anything in my life. The only times that I saw them post-undergrad studies were out of necessity or being compelled to do so. I recall one time in graduate studies where I went to one because one of my professors saw that I performed badly in his course and he didn't want to fail me, but needed a "reason" so then I went ahead and saw a counselor, but tbqh I wouldn't want to because I already know (rationally and logically) that it wasn't gonna do me any good, but out of necessity (not wanting to fail a course) I went. Another time was when I caved a bit and wanted to see if I could get some feedback over some issue I had. Boy was I disappointed (this was in early 2018), not only was there no help, it was just a fucking waste of time, full of gaslights, just utter disappointment. Most therapists and counselors, mental health professionals are like that, so yes, I concur with you that the psychiatric field is generally useless for people who have self-introspection, critical thinking, and are looking for solutions to a problem. They are only good for people who just want to vent and/or want validation, and those who aren't able to see introspectively. I too hate it when therapy, counseling is peddled around like candy, like it's the "go to" solution for life's problems. Finally, there are some problems that have no solution and is rather permanent, in which case, death may be a preferable option (I am still pro choice - but just listing death as an option).

When I used the word "pseudo science", I was talking about therapy being a cure or treatment for everyone, by the way. I'm sick and tired of brainless zombies, always telling people like me to go to therapy or get more vitamin D etc like I'm a stubborn idiot... I did not mean therapy is useless or harmful for everyone in existence. Everyone is different. I'm me. Some people are like me. I'm not clone #8724875427385. Even when it comes to antibiotics, some people are allergic to penicillin... When it comes to mental and physical health, a unique approach should be taken depending on every individual if even possible.

Yeah, same here too, and what's frustrating is that if you try to speak against them or challenge their suggestion, they dismiss you, or even get very defensive and nasty. They claim that you don't want to get help, which is absolute bullshit on their part. They are the ones who are not only unhelpful, but smug, and ugly, not us. We been there, done that, and it hasn't helped us, but yet they are stuck with this notion that there is always hope, there is always a solution, or you didn't want help, you didn't try hard enough, or you didn't find the right person. Fuck the lot of the masses.

I've explained this to my therapist as well, that most of the people who come there for serious problems don't lack insight into their problems. I don't need people to tell me to take said vitamins/medication, I've done the research, or tell me to do breathing, mindfulness, [insert whatever generic advice here that doesn't actually work]. The worst part is that they are constantly promoting types of therapy that have been proven NOT to work and yet they still treat it like it is the golden child of "treatment".

For example: CBT

Well said, and it's sad that even in 2019 (soon 2020) that this shit still goes around like it's canon. I've long given up on people giving any kind of solution to my problems and anytime they mention the cliche generic advice or even mention therapy, I'm done with them. Fuck their shitty suggestions and their ignorance, they don't get it and don't want to get it. They just want to appear "helpful" and look good, they don't have a vested interest in me, yet they want me to stay alive to their benefit (so they have to feel sad about my passing - which is selfish of them).

The detached way that they approach their clients is the most damaging of all and they don't realize it, I've told this to my own therapist but she will not understand. Repeating the same phrases over and over like robots is not helpful, it makes people like me feel like we are objects who aren't worthy of someones attention and emotions. I cried several times in my last session and that's the first time I've done that in my entire adult life in front of anyone, my therapist just stared like a statue like they usually do or gave some generic phrase. If they want to stay detached and stick with scripted dialogue, that's fine, but they should not expect their clients to trust them or consider them to have any kind of bond. What they consider the "therapeutic relationship" means very little to me personally, it just reminds me that I have another person in front of me that doesn't care beyond a superficial level. I am going to CTB regardless of how my therapist acts but I would've at least liked to have been able to be completely open and treated like an actual person for my remaining days. Being treated with dignity and compassion is too much to ask for apparently.

Yes, this is really well said. Most of my therapists (the majority) have been like that. You pretty much summed up what I am thinking and referring to.