Discussion What do you think are the STRONGEST arguments AGAINST suicide?

[lacrimosa]

1st Argument: The future remains to be seen and we can contribute to that future in a positive way by manifesting our destiny. We could possibly be on the verge of a breakthrough, right before we discover something that hasn't been discovered yet and this can contribute to alleviating suffering of others, thus giving us a reason to live.

It could be a song, or a poem, or anything really that could inspire the next genius or average person to keep going, despite their suffering. This could create a domino effect that could spread amongst the populace.

For example, you hold the door open for someone, and in turn they help someone else, etc. They made a movie about this with the kid from The Six Sense where he creates a system of helping others to alleviate suffering and spread positivity. I think it was called Pay it Forward.

2nd Argument: Utilitarianism - "Utilitarianism is a theory of morality that advocates actions that foster happiness or pleasure and oppose actions that cause unhappiness or harm. When directed toward making social, economic, or political decisions, a utilitarian philosophy would aim for the betterment of society as a whole." - Investopedia

If you want to alleviate suffering, your suicide would cause the opposite effect that utilitarianism causes. It wold devastate your family and friends and have an overall negative impact on their mental health and they would have a hole in their heart that they would fill with greed, malice, and all sorts of negative emotions until they finally exhaust themselves and are a shell of their formal self. This harm would have a negative domino effect and cause more unrest and evil in the world.

 

[sserafim]

I've often wondered what it is that makes some people take this very seriously and others not so much. It seems at least partially explainable by MBTI personality theory (yes yes, with all the usual caveats about how MBTI is "pseudoscience"). Are you and @ijustwishtodie both INTPs? I'm INTJ so I have Se in my stack, even though it's my weakest function. This is the function that experiences the real world through the physical senses; in its extreme it's a "thrill-seeking" function. I wonder if this is what has helped me follow through with planned attempts.

I think he's ISTP? I'm not sure actually. @ijustwishtodie what type are you?

 

[ijustwishtodie]

I think he's ISTP? I'm not sure actually. @ijustwishtodie what type are you?

I'm ISTP

 

[SilentSadness]

The only one that makes sense to me is that we can never be sure of the consequences of our actions, we don't know what happens after we die or if we try to kill ourselves. Arguments like "it might get better" definitely don't hold water because without a reason for it to get better it's just gambling.

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

1st Argument: The future remains to be seen and we can contribute to that future in a positive way by manifesting our destiny. We could possibly be on the verge of a breakthrough, right before we discover something that hasn't been discovered yet and this can contribute to alleviating suffering of others, thus giving us a reason to live.

It could be a song, or a poem, or anything really that could inspire the next genius or average person to keep going, despite their suffering. This could create a domino effect that could spread amongst the populace.

For example, you hold the door open for someone, and in turn they help someone else, etc. They made a movie about this with the kid from The Six Sense where he creates a system of helping others to alleviate suffering and spread positivity. I think it was called Pay it Forward.

2nd Argument: Utilitarianism - "Utilitarianism is a theory of morality that advocates actions that foster happiness or pleasure and oppose actions that cause unhappiness or harm. When directed toward making social, economic, or political decisions, a utilitarian philosophy would aim for the betterment of society as a whole." - Investopedia

If you want to alleviate suffering, your suicide would cause the opposite effect that utilitarianism causes. It wold devastate your family and friends and have an overall negative impact on their mental health and they would have a hole in their heart that they would fill with greed, malice, and all sorts of negative emotions until they finally exhaust themselves and are a shell of their formal self. This harm would have a negative domino effect and cause more unrest and evil in the world.

Great write-up, thanks for your contribution. These both seem like fairly strong arguments to me, maybe B or A tier, even though it's very rare to hear about them (I swear, my own personal engagement with philosophy/epistemology/critical thinking/etc. has done way more for my "mental health" than any psychiatrist).

I'm ISTP

Is that from the cognitive functions test or the 16p test? ISTP is Ti-Se, which, on the face of it, wouldn't seem to make a lot of sense.

 

[-nobodyknows-]

I can't speak for anyone else, but if someone told me something like "I can't bear the thought of losing you" it'd probably make me change my mind unless I'm way off the rails. In fact, it has in the past.

Though of course the problem is that most people quickly realize how stupid something like that is and turn on it, which makes things so much worse.

 

[ijustwishtodie]

Is that from the cognitive functions test or the 16p test? ISTP is Ti-Se, which, on the face of it, wouldn't seem to make a lot of sense.

It was from the latter. I did a cognitive functions test and this is what I got:

 

[sserafim]

It was from the latter. I did a cognitive functions test and this is what I got:

View attachment 146245

I got INTP

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

It was from the latter. I did a cognitive functions test and this is what I got:

Yeah that makes more sense, 16p kind of sucks lol

 

[sserafim]

Yeah that makes more sense, 16p kind of sucks lol

Is he ISTJ then? Hmm

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

Is he ISTJ then? Hmm

I'd say INTP is more likely. It's always hard to say from an observer's perspective, but ISTJ is SiTe and I just don't see enough Te usage for it to be his secondary function.

 

[ijustwishtodie]

I'd say INTP is more likely. It's always hard to say from an observer's perspective, but ISTJ is SiTe and I just don't see enough Te usage for it to be his secondary function.

Out of curiosity, why do you think that I'm an INTP? I'm not well versed in cognitive functions or the 16 different types of personalities so I don't fully understand the differences between the different types. I'm curious to hear what you have to say about this though

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

Out of curiosity, why do you think that I'm an INTP? I'm not well versed in cognitive functions or the 16 different types of personalities so I don't fully understand the differences between the different types. I'm curious to hear what you have to say about this though

I've divided my response into three sections but really only the last one is relevant.

Spoiler: MBTI Summary

MBTI is concerned with two dimensions of personality in particular:

• how you take in information, via either...
  • Sensing -- this occurs in the real, physical world
  • Intuiting -- this occurs in the imaginary, ideas-based world
• how you use that information to guide your decision-making, via either...
  • Feeling your way through things
  • Thinking your way through things

Each of these--sensing, intuiting, thinking, and feeling--can be directed towards the outside world (ie. extroverted) or the inner world (ie. introverted). In typology, we use the term "function," denoted by a two-letter code, to describe these two pieces of information. So Se means extroverted sensing, Fi is introverted feeling, Ne is extroverted intuition, Ti is introverted thinking, etc. Everyone is said to have a "function stack" made up of the four functions they use most.

Spoiler: The INTP's functions

The INTP's function stack is : Ti - Ne - Si - Fe. This means that their dominant function is introverted thinking. Ti is a logic-based function that likes to think just for the sake of it; it's good at problem-solving/debugging and finding contradictions or fallacies in arguments. This is in contrast to Te, which is also highly concerned with rationality, but manifests this interest by putting the outside world into order by planning, organizing, structuring, etc. Te users like learning and pondering too, but not usually for its own sake; it has to be in service of an external goal.

Ne, meanwhile, lives in the world of possibilities and is able to identify patterns and make theories; you can kind of imagine it as a reverse funnel, where one piece of input goes in and many ideas come out (in contrast to Ni, which is a funnel that condenses inputs into one overarching idea). Put together, a person with TiNe excels at exploring a variety of information in an unstructured way, with an eye for logical consistency. This is a good resource explaining dominant Ti, and here's another for auxiliary Ne. You can read it yourself and decide if this fits.

Spoiler: Why I chose INTP for you

Now, I don't know you well enough to actually say whether or not you're a TiNe user. So to arrive at my conclusion, I instead used process of elimination :

• Not a strong Te-user based on fact that you don't seem to be in the process of creating a concrete plan for going through with CTB; Te-users are forever scheming. This rules out ISTJ and INTJ.
• Not an Se-user based on fact that you don't seem to concern yourself with the sensory world, having little to no interest in novel, sensation-inducing experiences. This rules out ISTP and INFJ.

Of the suggested types from the test you took, that leaves INTP, ENTP, and ENFP. I think it goes without saying that you're an introvert, so that rules out ENTP and ENFP, leaving us only with INTP. Other than that, I do have an image of an "average INTP" in my head, informed by the reading I've done on MBTI and my own encounters with INTPs in real life (of which there are many), and you seem to align well with it, so it intuitively checks out.

 

[sserafim]

I've divided my response into three sections but really only the last one is relevant.

Spoiler: MBTI Summary

MBTI is concerned with two dimensions of personality in particular:

• how you take in information, via either...
  • Sensing -- this occurs in the real, physical world
  • Intuiting -- this occurs in the imaginary, ideas-based world
• how you use that information to guide your decision-making, via either...
  • Feeling your way through things
  • Thinking your way through things

Each of these--sensing, intuiting, thinking, and feeling--can be directed towards the outside world (ie. extroverted) or the inner world (ie. introverted). In typology, we use the term "function," denoted by a two-letter code, to describe these two pieces of information. So Se means extroverted sensing, Fi is introverted feeling, Ne is extroverted intuition, Ti is introverted thinking, etc. Everyone is said to have a "function stack" made up of the four functions they use most.

Spoiler: The INTP's functions

The INTP's function stack is : Ti - Ne - Si - Fe. This means that their dominant function is introverted thinking. Ti is a logic-based function that likes to think just for the sake of it; it's good at problem-solving/debugging and finding contradictions or fallacies in arguments. This is in contrast to Te, which is also highly concerned with rationality, but manifests this interest by putting the outside world into order by planning, organizing, structuring, etc. Te users like learning and pondering too, but not usually for its own sake; it has to be in service of an external goal.

Ne, meanwhile, lives in the world of possibilities and is able to identify patterns and make theories; you can kind of imagine it as a reverse funnel, where one piece of input goes in and many ideas come out (in contrast to Ni, which is a funnel that condenses inputs into one overarching idea). Put together, a person with TiNe excels at exploring a variety of information in an unstructured way, with an eye for logical consistency. This is a good resource explaining dominant Ti, and here's another for auxiliary Ne. You can read it yourself and decide if this fits.

Spoiler: Why I chose INTP for you

Now, I don't know you well enough to actually say whether or not you're a TiNe user. So to arrive at my conclusion, I instead used process of elimination :

• Not a strong Te-user based on fact that you don't seem to be in the process of creating a concrete plan for going through with CTB; Te-users are forever scheming. This rules out ISTJ and INTJ.
• Not an Se-user based on fact that you don't seem to concern yourself with the sensory world, having little to no interest in novel, sensation-inducing experiences. This rules out ISTP and INFJ.

Of the suggested types from the test you took, that leaves INTP, ENTP, and ENFP. I think it goes without saying that you're an introvert, so that rules out ENTP and ENFP, leaving us only with INTP. Other than that, I do have an image of an "average INTP" in my head, informed by the reading I've done on MBTI and my own encounters with INTPs in real life (of which there are many), and you seem to align well with it, so it intuitively checks out.

Hmm, interesting. What about me?

 

[TakeMeToHeaven]

Future technology might solve the problems that are making you suicidal

 

[Alexei_Kirillov]

Hmm, interesting. What about me?

You mean why do I think you're INTP? For you it's a lot more obvious because your TiNe is like a glaring beacon lol. A perfect example is how on a lot of threads, you're often responding to people with just "Why?" or "What do you mean?" Always asking questions, always seeking out new information. You're not a rule-follower, nor are you a very structured, routine-based person (and in fact you abhor such monotony). You also have trouble with follow through; ideas tend to endlessly fester in your head and rarely get translated into real life.

 

[Tarrasque]

Risk of permanent, non-lethal damage tops the list for me. Most of the common arguments seem to depend on you having a perspective that most suicidal people don't. The often said "it gets better" would be a good reason not to CTB if you actually believed things would eventually get better, but if you don't it just feels like being lied to.

 

[sserafim]

You mean why do I think you're INTP? For you it's a lot more obvious because your TiNe is like a glaring beacon lol. A perfect example is how on a lot of threads, you're often responding to people with just "Why?" or "What do you mean?" Always asking questions, always seeking out new information. You're not a rule-follower, nor are you a very structured, routine-based person (and in fact you abhor such monotony). You also have trouble with follow through; ideas tend to endlessly fester in your head and rarely get translated into real life.

Ya. This is so true btw. You just described me perfectly

 

[ThisIsMe1357]

The three arguments that came to my mind after giving this a thought were:

1. You have only one life.
2. There are people who would not want you to die.
3. Suicide can go very wrong when done improperly and can hurt you for the rest of life if it is not successful.