Venting This sort of thing irritates me far more than it should.

[Ironweed]

Yeah, going on Reddit was my first mistake. I freely admit that. Despite the fact that Reddit's true founder (Aaron Swartz) committed suicide the place is what it is when the topic of suicide comes up.

But I just cannot get past the fact that any attempt to post a rebuttal to this tendentious nonsense would simply be met with an immediate post deletion followed by an account banning. I think the oddest thing is that this individual is essentially saying their friend was involved in something they consider evil "encouraging suicide" via "erroneous logical arguments" or some such twaddle. Remaining friends with someone actively engaged in something you consider evil seems like a very odd take to me.

 

[Foresight]

Nobody pushes anyone to suicide. That's a fact. If anything you get pushed the other way. I've never in my 6 years been pushed to die. There isn't rampant issues of maliciousness or trolling either. This site truly is pro-choice and respectful of an individual's right. The only thing you get is people asking if you want to reconsider or respecting your decision.

We focus on the negative here. That might indirectly lead someone to give up. You can't police whether a suicidal person reads about negative aspects of life.

 

[VoidDesirer22]

View attachment 89183
Yeah, going on Reddit was my first mistake. I freely admit that. Despite the fact that Reddit's true founder (Aaron Swartz) committed suicide the place is what it is when the topic of suicide comes up.

But I just cannot get past the fact that any attempt to post a rebuttal to this tendentious nonsense would simply be met with an immediate post deletion followed by an account banning. I think the oddest thing is that this individual is essentially saying their friend was involved in something they consider evil "encouraging suicide" via "erroneous logical arguments" or some such twaddle. Remaining friends with someone actively engaged in something you consider evil seems like a very odd take to me.

Weird that they totally dismiss their friends' autonomy. Like they were being held at gun point to engage with people providing information for a peaceful exit.

It is frankly demeaning. They buy into the highly publicized accounts of those who failed a really shitty, painful suicide method and regret it, rather than considering that there are very many who consciously want to go after years of consideration and cost-benefit analysis.

 

[Superdeterminist]

>NOOOOO you can't kill yourself because then you'll be pushing it onto me as well!!!

This kind of blackmail is really cringe tbh.

 

[markimobzzdeasui]

>NOOOOO you can't kill yourself because then you'll be pushing it onto me as well!!!

This kind of blackmail is really cringe tbh.

But obviously we are selfish if we chose to do it.

 

[YourNeighbor]

Weird that they totally dismiss their friends' autonomy. Like they were being held at gun point to engage with people providing information for a peaceful exit.

It is frankly demeaning. They buy into the highly publicized accounts of those who failed a really shitty, painful suicide method and regret it, rather than considering that there are very many who consciously want to go after years of consideration and cost-benefit analysis.

We have no idea what situation the friend was in. From the copied post, it sounds more like she was in an unstable mental state and not deciding on suicide based on a rational calculus.

Any concept of autonomy includes capacity. Too often, on this site there is a built in presumption that merely because someone acted, that that act was the result of a meaningful choice. But the concept of capacity warns us to question that circular logic.

This reddit user certainly knew his/her friend better than anyone here. No one here is therefore in a position to question his/her comments that the friend's decision to end her life was irrational.

 

[Superdeterminist]

We have no idea what situation the friend was in. From the copied post, it sounds more like she was in an unstable mental state and not deciding on suicide based on a rational calculus.

Any concept of autonomy includes capacity. Too often, on this site there is a built in presumption that merely because someone acted, that that act was the result of a meaningful choice. But the concept of capacity warns us to question that circular logic.

This reddit user certainly knew his/her friend better than anyone here. No one here is therefore in a position to question his/her comments that the friend's decision to end her life was irrational.

There is no way of measuring the rationality of a choice. I think belief in god is irrational, but I don't go around telling christians they can't be doing that because it's so silly, do I? People use the word 'irrational' to try to label something as somehow illegitimate just because they don't like it. The concept is not grounded in anything solid. What do you mean 'meaningful'? That's such a wishy-washy term, another one that lacks a solid basis.

 

[Insomniac]

don't give it any more attention than that.

 

[silent staring void]

I mean this was posted on r/SuicideBereavement which is a subreddit for people who are grieving the death of a loved one. It makes a lot of sense that they would have strict rules so that those people don't have to see anything that could be upsetting, no matter how much we may disagree with their opinions.

However I think that the OP was talking about suicidal people in general and not just about their friend. I looked at that community a few days ago and I noticed that there is very little understanding about how suicide might make sense in the context of a person's own life. It's all about how they were caused to do this by faulty brain chemistry or how they held irrational beliefs and erroneous positions. This isn't criticism of that community, it's just an observation. If I ever kill myself I'm definitely not doing it because of Facts and Logic or whatever and I don't like the idea that other people would view me as such.

 

[YourNeighbor]

There is no way of measuring the rationality of a choice. I think belief in god is irrational, but I don't go around telling christians they can't be doing that because it's so silly, do I? People use the word 'irrational' to try to label something as somehow illegitimate just because they don't like it. The concept is not grounded in anything solid. What do you mean 'meaningful'? That's such a wishy-washy term, another one that lacks a solid basis.

Not true. We as a society look at the capacity to make decisions all the time. One example is duress in the context of contracts. Another is mental capacity. Researchers too study rationality in many contexts. It is done all the time.

No one here can judge the friend's suicide to be the result of "years of consideration and a cost benefit-analysis" as OP suggests (a pretty good approximation of rational decisionmaking). We simply don't know.

 

[the_town_manager]

From the copied post, it sounds more like she was in an unstable mental state and not deciding on suicide based on a rational calculus.

Doesn't sound like that to me. They say she was a long-term and avid reader of pro-suicide forums. So it seems like she was plenty stable in her wish to die. The poster however sounds completely unhinged in how they describe these places and suicide in general. I'm not inclined to give them any benefit of the doubt based on that.

 

[Superdeterminist]

Not true. We as a society look at the capacity to make decisions all the time. One example is duress in the context of contracts. Another is mental capacity. Researchers too study rationality in many contexts. It is done all the time.

No one here can judge the friend's suicide to be the result of "years of consideration and a cost benefit-analysis" as OP suggests (a pretty good approximation of rational decisionmaking). We simply don't know.

However you define "rational", it is going to be subjective. A decision is not any less a decision just because it may have had less forethought. Also, that a majority holds a view, doesn't make that view true. The majority believe in god, does that fact make god real?

 

[YourNeighbor]

However you define "rational", it is going to be subjective. A decision is not any less a decision just because it may have had less forethought. Also, that a majority holds a view, doesn't make that view true. The majority believe in god, does that fact make god real?

You're moving the goalposts. Faith in God is based on...faith. By definition, it is not a rational thought process dependent on logic. I'm not a believer, but recognize it may be rational in many cases to hold such a belief, if you look at it as cost/benefit analysis (benefits of belonging to a community, comfort of having faith in something larger than oneself, etc.etc.).

That the friend was an avid reader of suicide communities does not give us enough info to judge the decision here. The friend may have searched out these communities solely to reinforce otherwise irrational beliefs and may not have been in a rational state of mind throughout. The issue is not the *quantity* of forethought, but rather the capacity to think rationally. One can be deluded for a long time before acting on the delusion. That doesn't making the deluded action rational, merely because it was a long time coming.

Which leaves us where we started. The redditor here knew his/her friend better than anyone commenting here, and none of us have any basis to dismiss the redditor's conclusion that the friend's choice was not a rational decision based on an objective analysis of all available options.

 

[ornitier199]

Nobody pushes anyone to suicide. That's a fact.

Is it?
I remember someone in my past who did exactly this. The malicious intent was there, I could feel it in their words.

 

[Superdeterminist]

You're moving the goalposts. Faith in God is based on...faith. By definition, it is not a rational thought process dependent on logic. I'm not a believer, but recognize it may be rational in many cases to hold such a belief, if you look at it as cost/benefit analysis (benefits of belonging to a community, comfort of having faith in something larger than oneself, etc.etc.).

That the friend was an avid reader of suicide communities does not give us enough info to judge the decision here. The friend may have searched out these communities solely to reinforce otherwise irrational beliefs and may not have been in a rational state of mind throughout.

Which leaves us where we started. The redditor here knew his/her friend better than anyone commenting here, and none of us have any basis to dismiss the redditor's conclusion that the friend's choice was not a rational decision based on an objective analysis of all available options.

I don't personally think suicide is ever 'wrong', so it's not relevant to me how well I knew this person, I don't need to know them at all. The only time it's dubious to me is if the person has pets or children they would leave behind. Even then, I struggle to condemn the choice. I'm sure you have different standards by which you judge suicides. But who is to say which of us has the more 'correct' stance? No one can, this is merely a difference of opinion. You think that maybe the deceased person made a mistake, I think not.

 

[FuneralCry]

If someone decides to leave this world, then that is their choice. Suicide is a human right, nobody should be forced to live against their wishes. Many anti choice people can be very delusional, they dismiss suicide as always being irrational and something that must be prevented in every case. Only the individual knows when the right time is to leave this world and other people should have no say in it. In a world as horrible as this wanting suicide can be perfectly rational. Many people can simply come to the conclusion that their life is not worth living. All I want is to escape from decades of meaningless suffering. I wish that we lived in a world where our right to die is respected.

 

[YourNeighbor]

I don't personally think suicide is ever 'wrong', so it's not relevant to me how well I knew this person, I don't need to know them at all. The only time it's dubious to me is if the person has pets or children they would leave behind. Even then, I struggle to condemn the choice. I'm sure you have different standards by which you judge suicides. But who is to say which of us has the more 'correct' stance? No one can, this is merely a difference of opinion. You think that maybe the deceased person made a mistake, I think not.

It's not about questioning whether the friend's choice was "wrong" in a moral sense. Even assuming her choice was irrational and made during an unstable mental state, that wouldn't render the suicide immoral. Indeed, it's harder to question the morality of a choice made during an unstable mental state. But, if the suicide was not the result of rational and stable consideration, there is a very good chance that it was not the best decision for the friend, even if in some state of distress or delusion she thought it was at the moment, perhaps with the encouragement from online sources (these are the facts before us).

So, from the limited information before us, we have no basis to conclude the suicide was not a mistake. The only evidence we have is the friend's statements which give no reason to think suicide was necessary or the result of rational decision.

 

[Foresight]

Is it?
I remember someone in my past who did exactly this. The malicious intent was there, I could feel it in their words.

I'm sure it happens infrequently but it's not a common occurence. You're going to be told to KYS all over the internet because people act stupid sometimes. I don't think directly telling someone to go kill yourself is allowed here. Malicious speech and trolling is not rampant here.

Edit: I meant on this site. I know in life and all over the internet people push us, but the notion that SS is a death cult is false.

 

[Superdeterminist]

It's not about questioning whether the friend's choice was "wrong" in a moral sense. Even assuming her choice was irrational and made during an unstable mental state, that wouldn't render the suicide immoral. Indeed, it's harder to question the morality of a choice made during an unstable mental state. But, if the suicide was not the result of rational and stable consideration, there is a very good chance that it was not the best decision for the friend, even if in some state of distress or delusion she thought it was at the moment, perhaps with the encouragement from online sources (these are the facts before us).

So, from the limited information before us, we have no basis to conclude the suicide was not a mistake. The only evidence we have is the friend's statements which give no reason to think suicide was necessary or the result of rational decision.

I would say, of course it wasn't the best decision for the friend, because they clearly didn't like it. But personally I think individual autonomy is more important in this scenario.

What do you mean by "mistake" though exactly? Is this not a moral judgement akin to calling it immoral?

 

[whatevs]

Is it?
I remember someone in my past who did exactly this. The malicious intent was there, I could feel it in their words.

Yeah, it's well known that troll armies on the Internet are vocally devoted to get some people to kill themselves, and they sometimes succeed. It's just uncommon and sick, the opposite is the default.

 

[CandyCane]

Nobody pushes anyone to suicide. That's a fact. If anything you get pushed the other way. I've never in my 6 years been pushed to die. There isn't rampant issues of maliciousness or trolling either. This site truly is pro-choice and respectful of an individual's right. The only thing you get is people asking if you want to reconsider or respecting your decision.

We focus on the negative here. That might indirectly lead someone to give up. You can't police whether a suicidal person reads about negative aspects of life.

I do feel I've been pushed to suicide. My parents screamed at me to kill myself all the time.

 

[Foresight]

I do feel I've been pushed to suicide. My parents screamed at me to kill myself all the time.

I'm sorry, I meant on this site nobody pushes anyone. People outside SS think this site is a death cult where we push people over the edge on purpose. I know in life we are pushed to suicide by others. Your parents are awful for doing that, truly awful.

 

[YourNeighbor]

I would say, of course it wasn't the best decision for the friend, because they clearly didn't like it. But personally I think individual autonomy is more important in this scenario.

By "friend," I was referring to the one who committed suicide as opposed to the redditor writing about his/her friend.

What do you mean by "mistake" though exactly? Is this not a moral judgement akin to calling it immoral?

Not a moral judgment. Mistake in the sense of a decision not made through rational thinking and based on the best information available, made by someone with the capacity to make the decision. A decision based on delusion, or a mistaken fear driven by despair of a hopeless situation that was not in fact hopeless, would be a mistake. Again, we have zero information here to suggest that the friend who suicided made a rational, as opposed to despair-driven, decision. The ultimate point is that there is no information in this thread to conclude that the friend is somehow generally opposed to autonomy or out of line. OP and others make a major assumption about the redditor that has no basis in any of the facts presented to us.

 

[the_town_manager]

The ultimate point is that there is no information in this thread to conclude that the friend is somehow generally opposed to autonomy or out of line.

There is though. The dishonest language used to describe suicide forums shows that the person quite clearly isn't being reasonable about this topic themselves.

All this talk of rationality in suicide is usually a complete red herring. No one ever questions the rationality of people that go on living. Because it's not rationality that matters to these people. It's just life.

 

[YourNeighbor]

There is though. The dishonest language used to describe suicide forums shows that the person quite clearly isn't being reasonable about this topic themselves.

What forum/comments was the redditor being dishonest about? You don't know, OP doesn't know, and no one here can point to any such examples. This is pure speculation.

All this talk of rationality in suicide is usually a complete red herring. No one ever questions the rationality of people that go on living. Because it's not rationality that matters to these people. It's just life.

Again, pure speculation about what "matters to these people," with zero evidence. But if you prefer to tilt at windmills to feel somehow superior to imaginary people, knock yourself out.

 

[the_town_manager]

What forum/comments was the redditor being dishonest about? You don't know, OP doesn't know, and no one here can point to any such examples. This is pure speculation.

They were talking about SS both on reddit and here. There are no pro-suicide subreddits. And all the other pro-choice subreddits have been tiny. If you think that was a fair description of this place then what are you even doing here?

Again, pure speculation about what "matters to these people," with zero evidence. But if you prefer to tilt at windmills to feel somehow superior to imaginary people, knock yourself out.

It wouldn't seem like pure speculation if you had actually read the post quoted in the OP or argued with people like this before. The evidence of the person being utterly dishonest/misguided is plastered all over the post.

 

[CandyCane]

I'm sorry, I meant on this site nobody pushes anyone. People outside SS think this site is a death cult where we push people over the edge on purpose. I know in life we are pushed to suicide by others. Your parents are awful for doing that, truly awful.

Thank you. They also treated to kill me themselves. And now I'm stuck living with them. I assume on here an admin would intervene if someone was being aggressively forceful about someone else suiciding. I'm sure there could be a few sickos on here that enjoy suffering, but, overall, being suicidal is a silent epidemic because once you speak out about it, you are easily locked up and autonomy is lost. I respond terribly to psych meds, so I would never tell my doctor I'm suicidal out of fear they'd force harmful treatments on me. Our medical system seems to think biology, not experience, is why people are so suicidal, as if suicide is insane, when it's often not insane. I read a study recently that said giving people money beat every other depression "treatment" out there.

 

[Superdeterminist]

By "friend," I was referring to the one who committed suicide as opposed to the redditor writing about his/her friend.

Not a moral judgment. Mistake in the sense of a decision not made through rational thinking and based on the best information available, made by someone with the capacity to make the decision. A decision based on delusion, or a mistaken fear driven by despair of a hopeless situation that was not in fact hopeless, would be a mistake. Again, we have zero information here to suggest that the friend who suicided made a rational, as opposed to despair-driven, decision. The ultimate point is that there is no information in this thread to conclude that the friend is somehow generally opposed to autonomy or out of line. OP and others make a major assumption about the redditor that has no basis in any of the facts presented to us.

Ok but they did what they did with the information they had. We can wonder "if they had X information, they wouldn't have made the same decision", but there's just no way of knowing. This applies with any decision; if X had been different, how would the outcome have been different? We can only speculate, not know. How do you judge if someone is fit to make their own decision? If say they're panicked and despaired, would that make their decisions less valid? I don't see how. Declaring someone as unfit to make their own decisions I think is unfair and immoral, personally.

 

[Hercules]

Being suicidal is one thing that people will never understand until they go through it themselves. Nobody can push someone else to suicide. There is a myth that if you talk about suicide in any context or even mention the word suicide that you are going to plant the idea in someone's head and they are going to immediately go out and kill themselves. Suicide is not contagious like athletes foot. You can't plant the idea of suicide in someone's head. If someone is really suicidal, those thoughts were already there. Also there is a big difference between someone who is passively suicidal and most likely won't act on it and someone who is actively suicidal. Even for someone who is actively suicidal, it is very hard to take the last step and actually go through with it. It is one thing for someone to have suicidal thoughts, to research methods, form a plan, and even gather the means for their method.. It is quite another thing for them to overcome their SI and actually go through with it someday. It is absolutely ridiculous to think that you can talk someone into or force someone to commit suicide. Suicide goes against all your natural instincts, and someone can't be tricked into doing it. People who think this, clearly don't understand what suicidal ideation is and the suffering suicidal people go through everyday. They obviously have never heard of SI either.

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[YourNeighbor]

Ok but they did what they did with the information they had. We can wonder "if they had X information, they wouldn't have made the same decision", but there's just no way of knowing. This applies with any decision; if X had been different, how would the outcome have been different? We can only speculate, not know. How do you judge if someone is fit to make their own decision? If say they're panicked and despaired, would that make their decisions less valid? I don't see how. Declaring someone as unfit to make their own decisions I think is unfair and immoral, personally.

"We can only speculate..." You hit the nail on the head. No one here has any basis to criticize the redditor's post, because no one here has any information about what s/he was writing about.