Discussion The unspoken inference of CTB?

[TAW122]

I couldn't think of a better title for this thread, but I had a nagging thought over the years, with regards to a potential pattern I observed either IRL or through online platforms and spaces outside of SaSu. The thing I observed is where whenever someone is stressed or upset (for whatever reason or anything) and whenever venting to their loved ones, friends, or whomever, is that up until and perhaps even before the mention of "CTB" or so, maybe their audience (either mental health professionals, friends, family, etc.) inferred that the person speaking would end up CTB'ing? Even if said person did or didn't actually attempt (and succeed)?

Perhaps it is just that the normies, masses, and pro-lifers/anti-choicers etc., just do NOT like to have the knowledge of a potential CTB or even the mention/reminder of (either actual or potential) CTB? This is assuming that they never learned of the news ever of said person's fate. Or maybe "they (the normies, masses, pro-lifers etc.) know", but they just don't want to be 'notified, or mentioned' because then they would be compelled to act (hero complex, though I digress..)? Here is a scenario to put my point and premise into context:

Scenario A (when one mentions the unspoken part):

There is a person named 'L' and she has a friend named 'M'. They are alright friends, but not like close friends. So one day 'L' had some amazing event regardless of whatever it is. However, 'L' had a setback in life and sadly, she wasn't able to make it to the event (could be a concert, celebrity, or whatever 'L' fancies, again that detail is irrelevant). Then with such a disappointment and disaster, L said to M while being very upset, "Dammit! I missed that D event of my lifetime and waited for many many years because of X blah reason or cause! I'm so fucking angry and sad! (additional rants further…)" Then M tries to comfort L but to L, it felt like it was reductive or undermining and dismissive of L's upset and the gravity of how much the event meant to L herself. So M said "Don't worry L. You will get another chance at some other C blah event etc. It'll be just equally amazing!" L then said "If I don't get D event, in (insert future time), I will kms." Then suddenly M becomes startled and playing hero or becoming really overbearing "Are you okay L? CTB is not the answer!" and other things that just devolve which doesn't help L at all. Even worse, if M actively intervenes out of a 'hero savior complex' which wouldn't solve L's problems and may even make L's sentience worse!

Scenario B (when one does NOT mention the unspoken part):

So similar to Scenario A, but instead of mentioning the "unspoken part" to her friend, 'M', L said "Damn, I missed that event of my lifetime and waited for many many years because of X blah reason or cause! I'm very fucking angry and sad!". Then when M seeks to comfort L, L did not proceed further and maybe silently accepts the platitude (or at least appears to be). Even if M followed up, L did not allow M to recognize her 'true' intentions. So then when L actually follows through (at some future point in time, be it months, or year or so), then it may be a surprise shock to M, but maybe M isn't really shocked (hard to say, as it will depend on individual to individual).

In conclusion, I wrote this thread because throughout time I always pondered about whether or not the "unspoken part" about CTB was either known subconsciously by everyday people (normies, the masses, pro-lifers, and similar people alike), or maybe it's not known and they really do not want to know (nor would they really like to be 'surprised' unexpectedly either)? What are your thoughts on this, do you think that most people may already know about it but would just not like to be "reminded" and then feel compelled to act, or maybe they just do not know of the "unspoken part" and instead would never want to know as 'ignorance is bliss' to them is the most comforting reality for them?

 

[itsgone2]

My opinion is most couldn't really help, or understand how to help, a person making a kms comment. Unless you've been in our shoes how could you know how serious we are? Also I don't know what they're supposed to do.
This just occurred to me but many at my work are stressed because our company has been sold. One person I was talking to started mentioning how he was having dark thoughts. But he kept going after that. I was relieved to know someone else was having those thoughts but also I didn't try to help. So for me there's no stigma, but then what? There's no clear path there.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I think there is the other problem of gallows humour. Perhaps people don't use it quite so much with the term 'suicide' itself but, they might say other things that allude to death: 'I'll be dead if I don't hand this in on time...I'd rather die than do this thing... Someone please just kill me.' Maybe it's more about exagerating punishment: 'My friend will kill me if I don't do this.'

So- we also throw mortality round as a form of humour. I tend to agree though, I think there can be a more serious undertone to people who really mean it.

As to whether everyone unavoidably drops hints, that is interesting to consider. I'm sometimes astounded by family reactions to those who have CTB, who insist there was no warning. Then you read on that they had been struggling with depression for years. Sometimes, even ideation. So, what? They didn't think they meant it?

It is bizarre but then, I think they are simply making efforts to deflect blame and forgive themselves. Maybe in many cases, they have cause to. Even if they knew. Even if they did all they could to help the person, it may still not have 'saved' them. I think sometimes we don't tell people outright, because we know there's nothing they can do to help.

It seems weird that there would be no signs whatsoever bit then, some claim that there weren't. I suppose they must have been very adept at masking. I think alternatively though- we can be depressed for decades. To the extent that it becomes a part of our character. So- being gloomy, pessimistic about living, seemingly attracted to death, may be our normal! If the person has seemingly stayed alive for decades with those feelings, people may believe they may never actually act on them.

It can probably lean to the other extreme too- if people are very vocal about wanting or intending to kill themselves- seriously and yet, they don't act on it or, make multiple failed attempts. Sadly, I think it can become like: 'The Boy Who Cried Wolf' story. People become oversaturated/ overburdened I suppose- with all the panic and immense sympathy needed from them again, so they maybe start to react in a more nonchalent way. As in- not this again.

It's sad really. In both extremes, I guess it has to be quite a sensitive and yet, strong person themself, to ask the right questions to make the person feel heard and supported.

 

[TAW122]

These are pretty interesting responses and thoughts. I wanted to add that the example I gave, while hypothetical, is still a fairly common situation in almost day to day life. I do often hear stories of where people who presumably was upset for whatever reason and eventually CTB'd, whether or not the people around said person knew before hand (but just didn't like the direct mention or reminder), or whether the person didn't know and the CTB (which wasn't revealed for obvious reasons - privacy and protecting oneself from being intervened, interfered against) and surprised by it?

@itsgone2 That seems to be pretty accurate and on point with many people in the sense that they really don't know about how to react. As for your example, I think it's a good thing to not unnecessarily or wrongly intervene (could exacerbate the situation) when someone had those 'dark thoughts'. Also, yes, I agree with you that most people don't really know because most of them were rarely (if ever at all) in our shoes/lived our experiences.

@Forever Sleep It's an interesting take, and yes, humans try to find some humor (perhaps due to their nature) in dark comedy or even in figures of speech metaphorically or casually. I do agree that we don't tell them outright or directly because we know they can't (or will not be willing to) help the situation. I would even say that sometimes intervention can even make the suicidal person worse; especially when it involves active detainment, loss of civil liberties and freedoms under the guise of help.

The other point about people who have been 'depressed' (not necessarily clinically, but situational or environmental causes) and sad for an extended period of time (many years, decades), sure, it possible for it to become a part of them as those feelings have become more/less entrenched long term. Yes, there are people who then more or less become numb to a particular person whose day to day default state is that of melancholy or sadness.

Yes, in the end, I would even think that perhaps it's that people may 'subconsciously' know or eventually connect the dots (especially if the person ended up CTB'ing at a later time, maybe months or years afterwards), perhaps they just don't want to be reminded of it. If that is true, then it could be that it becomes more of a moral/values issue and didn't want to have their sensibilities and beliefs offended, thus similar to blasphemy rather than genuine care? In other words, it becomes more about the fact of not wanting to be offended versus actual, sincere and genuine care for the person?

 

[TBONTB]

I think the average "normie" doesn't consider suicide for themselves...it's literally "unthinkable". And so as a result their mind simply does not allow for the possibility that another person would seriously consider it and plan for it.

I have noticed in my friendships that I can say some dark things and people just move right past them. I think they made a note that I am upset or sad about circumstances. But they themselves have been sad and they didn't kill themselves, so why would they think I would? Now, if I said to any of these people in a direct way "I am wondering if I want to go on in life", they would definitely be taking some action.

The only two people I have had ask me if I was considering "hurting myself" are people who had exposure in their own lives to an attempt or to serious ideation. So they were more prepared for the idea that suicide could be real.

So, what's easier for them in the case I do end up with a CTB. I don't know. But I kind of guess that they will be shocked, but less traumatized if they didn't actually have a conversation with me about death.

 

[TAW122]

@TBONTB Yeah I think that's a good point there. Even if it is unspoken, perhaps the majority of normies and people just never really even thought of CTB as an option. Like you said, it's probably more of a "well said person is sad and upset, but they will be okay again in time (days, weeks, or so)" and then they (the normies) don't give it further thought or anything. Of course, in that case, it may be a shock/surprise if when sometime later (months or a year later) when said person did CTB, and they 'might' connect the thoughts to sadness and such.

 

[TBONTB]

@TBONTB Yeah I think that's a good point there. Even if it is unspoken, perhaps the majority of normies and people just never really even thought of CTB as an option. Like you said, it's probably more of a "well said person is sad and upset, but they will be okay again in time (days, weeks, or so)" and then they (the normies) don't give it further thought or anything. Of course, in that case, it may be a shock/surprise if when sometime later (months or a year later) when said person did CTB, and they 'might' connect the thoughts to sadness and such.

Yeah, that seems right. It's hard to remember how differently we think than normies.