Venting the benevolence of god

[annihilator]

God is evil
it is so sadistic to abduct the comfort of nothingness and unleash the torment of existence , no amount of good creations can compensate for that fatal mistake
if god exists , he would be the ultimate embodiment of evil as he created a life where suffering rule supreme . All is suffering and joy is an illusion , joy is the absence of suffering
it is ignorant and stupid to worship such an evil entity
he setting in his golden throne laughing at your torment and enslavement ...

 

[FuneralCry]

I see anything related to religion as being completely fictional personally, I just see it as invented by humans who were unable to accept how truly meaningless and senseless existence is. I just believe the existence of life to be the most terrible tragedy with no deeper meaning or purpose behind it, it truly is hellish how existing beings have been tormented all throughout history as a result of this abomination.

 

[KillingPain267]

No, according Christianity, suffering is Adam and Eve's and humans' fault. Sin causes suffering, not God. God made a world and universe without pain, sorrow, sin and death and man ruined it (even for the animals). Joy is not the absense of pain. It's possible to have chronic joy in theory (in another universe). But it requires the laws of physics to be different. And according to Christianity, after judgment day there will be a new heaven and new earth (a new universe) where all pain, sorrow and death is abolished forever. Think of it like a constant heroin high. It's possible in theory for a person to constantly be in a euphoric state (it's just hard to achieve or maintain in this current universe and its laws of physics).

 

[annihilator]

No, according Christianity, suffering is Adam and Eve's and humans' fault. Sin causes suffering,

god allowed sin ( and suffering ) to exist

God made a world and universe without pain, sorrow, sin and death and man ruined it (even for the animals)

if human actions can over write god's will than that is not logical by definition , and god is not a god

 

[axab43]

No, according Christianity, suffering is Adam and Eve's and humans' fault. Sin causes suffering, not God. God made a world and universe without pain, sorrow, sin and death and man ruined it (even for the animals). Joy is not the absense of pain. It's possible to have chronic joy in theory (in another universe). But it requires the laws of physics to be different. And according to Christianity, after judgment day there will be a new heaven and new earth (a new universe) where all pain, sorrow and death is abolished forever. Think of it like a constant heroin high. It's possible in theory for a person to constantly be in a euphoric state (it's just hard to achieve or maintain in this current universe and its laws of physics).

I agree. If you are a Christian, it is sometimes tough but it is like pain and suffering entered the world when God's creation decided to do what they wanted and not what God wanted. If God wanted to stop them doing that, He would have to create robots who just did His will and didn't have any choice in the matter. That would not be a loving God

It is tough. I've suffered and I would rather not be here now. But the Christian gospel is perfectly feasible in how pain got here and why.

 

[KillingPain267]

god allowed sin ( and suffering ) to exist

if human actions can over right gods will than that is not logical by definition , and god is not a god

No, because there is free will. It's like saying a father is evil (or not even a real father) unless he actively bans his son from any activity that may lead to harm, and shelters him completely. So no legos, no plastic, no sharp toys and not even allowed outside a crib. But if a father shelters his son to that extreme, then he would also be evil (like those cases were the parents kept their children in the basement). Saying then "god is not god", you assume God must be all-controlling. Being all-controlling is not the same as all-powerful. A father is (potentially) all-powerful over a 10 year old son, but a benevolent father would also allow the son some space to make his own choices. What you criticize is an extreme form of a Christian interpretation called Calvinism and/or determinism. But I don't believe that is a good interpretation of the texts. If determinism is true then I would agree, though.

There is also an atheistic/naturalistic form of determinism rejecting that free will exists in the universe. But, if that is true, would you then say "nature is evil"?

I agree. If you are a Christian, it is sometimes tough but it is like pain and suffering entered the world when God's creation decided to do what they wanted and not what God wanted. If God wanted to stop them doing that, He would have to create robots who just did His will and didn't have any choice in the matter. That would not be a loving God

It is tough. I've suffered and I would rather not be here now. But the Christian gospel is perfectly feasible in how pain got here and why.

Exactly. Half of the things I'm suffering can directly be traced to what other humans have done (bullying, betrayal, indifference, neglect, poverty due to greed and inequality). And the rest (health issues) can be linked the the Fall (which caused the laws of physics to change and introduce decay). My life was bad when I became a believer, then briefly improved a few years, but now has become even worse. But I cannot contribute that to God since God never told people to bully me or divorce me or hoard money and property so that a few have a lot and many have nothing unless they sell their labor to the rich property hoarders. In fact, if people did not do those unloving things I wouldn't be here with severe mental illness. My other bodily health issues I could handle for a while since I'll be given a new resurrected body (without pain and decay) after judgment day anyway (this fact is also why I even more don't care much for this current life and am excited for it to end).

 

[annihilator]

other humans have done (bullying, betrayal, indifference, neglect, poverty due to greed and inequality). And the rest (health issues)

this happens because ure genetically inferior , again god's fault
you can believe in a good god because it gives you hope , but its more like a cope

 

[KillingPain267]

this happens because ure genetically inferior , again god's fault
you can believe in a good god because it gives you hope , but its more like a cope

How is it God's fault that PEOPLE hate me when God said to love thy neighbour? Lol
Health issues, okay. But still, everyone has health issues and is essentially genetically inferior (because everyone will age and die eventually). But again, God created humans healthy and immortal. Then they sinned, and the result is genetic, environmental, natural and moral disaster and eventually death as a result. Romans 5:12: "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"
You can believe the universe was created with suffering and decay and death from the beginning, but it's not what Christianity says. In the Bible, humans are blamed for suffering entering this universe, changing the laws of physics to include decay, but will be changed after judgment day in the resurrection. The resurrection may sound like cope to you, but even some cosmologists believe the universe can die and be reborn (potentially with different laws of physics). But I have no illusions about THIS life and world changing, exactly for the above stated reasons, and that's why I'm excited for my life to end and my beliefs are no cope for me in my daily life at all. In fact, I think most Christians forget how the Bible teaches THIS world and life is trash and cope with cheesy statements like "life is great" etc.

 

[annihilator]

God created humans healthy and immortal. Then they sinned, and the result is genetic, environmental, natural and moral disaster and eventually death as a result.

it is so ridiculous , that you accept that you are suffering because of another human fault ( adam and eve ) , this automatically makes god unfair

humans are blamed for suffering entering this universe

god is le GOOD , but humans are le BAD
so similar to pandora's box story , God created everything but not sin but we also claim god is all powerful , omnipotent
by creating humans , god created sin and thus is responsible for suffering

humans are blamed for suffering entering this universe, changing the laws of physics to include decay, b

again , humans altering the laws of physiques makes the omnipotent god imperfect

 

[KillingPain267]

it is so ridiculous , that you accept that you are suffering because of another human fault ( adam and eve ) , this automatically makes god unfair

Dude, YOU are suffering too in part because of other people. Are you rich and free? If not, then you are suffering because of human greed (capitalism). Humans are selfish and depraved, that's a fact.

so similar to pandora's box story , God created everything but not sin but we also claim god is all powerful , omnipotent
by creating humans , god created sin and thus is responsible for suffering

Nonsense. As I said, all-powerful doesn't mean all-controlling. Like the government has power to throw anyone in jail, but it doesn't mean they ALWAYS want to and have to put EVERYONE in jail for every law.

Also, if you grow poisonous plants in your garden, and warn your neighbors not to eat them, and they still sneak over and eat, is that then your fault?

again , humans altering the laws of physiques makes the omnipotent god imperfect

No, the altering of the laws of physics is more of a consequence of the sin of HUMANS, similar to how the neighbor eating poisonous plants alters the bloodstream or metabolism or whatever. Sin=death. God didn't create sin, unless you are a Christian believing in extreme Calvinist determinism, which most don't.

 

[Superdeterminist]

Epicurus' argument remains undefeated. Even if you believe in free will (hard sell already), that does not explain all earthly suffering. Think natural disasters, disease, and accidents.

God is evil, weak, or simply does not exist. Take your pick.

 

[JustA_LittlePerson]

Epicurus' argument remains undefeated. Even if you believe in free will (hard sell already), that does not explain all earthly suffering. Think natural disasters, disease, and accidents.

God is evil, weak, or simply does not exist. Take your pick.

God is above good and evil. I never understood the "God is evil because he allows evil" since he also allows good.

 

[Superdeterminist]

God is above good and evil. I never understood the "God is evil because he allows evil" since he also allows good.

The good is not nearly enough to compensate for the evil. Really, I don't think any amount of good would justify the suffering we see. I can't stop you from giving god a free pass from judgement despite the appalling state of this world, but it's not something I could ever bring myself to do, personally. As I see it, the only thing that might absolve god, is the possibility that god himself lacks free will (he is bound by his own necessary nature). Meaning he did not choose to make this shitshow of a world, rather it was just a tragic necessity. In that case he would not be truly responsible, but instead be like us, a victim, though a different kind. This can accord with the view taken by some that god "suffers with us". But it also depends on god's own opinions and judgements, which remain unclear. Does he see the error in his own creation?

 

[Raindancer]

The good is not nearly enough to compensate for the evil. Really, I don't think any amount of good would justify the suffering we see. I can't stop you from giving god a free pass from judgement despite the appalling state of this world, but it's not something I could ever bring myself to do, personally. As I see it, the only thing that might absolve god, is the possibility that god himself lacks free will (he is bound by his own necessary nature). Meaning he did not choose to make this shitshow of a world, rather it was just a tragic necessity. In that case he would not be truly responsible, but instead be like us, a victim, though a different kind. This can accord with the view taken by some that god "suffers with us". But it also depends on god's own opinions and judgements, which remain unclear. Does he see the error in his own creation?

When God created the world it was perfect. There were no natural disasters and all creatures got along. In fact, if I am not mistaken all were vegetarian. There was no death. The suffering we see today is all from sin and people. If there were not wars and famine and greed,that would stop most of the suffering. But people still get sick and die, again a result of the fall.

 

[lita-lassi]

god is a copout. humans are dumb animals living our stupid lives with trillions of other lifeforms on a damp rock somewhere in a massive quark soup called the universe. telling us to stop being cruel dicks is like telling chimps to not bite off faces, we just do it naturally. now that we can think about it though, and despite it being common sense not to, we still do harm to others and love to blame some skydaddy for our own lame fuckery. the mental gymnastics are amazing

 

[Superdeterminist]

When God created the world it was perfect. There were no natural disasters and all creatures got along. In fact, if I am not mistaken all were vegetarian. There was no death. The suffering we see today is all from sin and people. If there were not wars and famine and greed,that would stop most of the suffering. But people still get sick and die, again a result of the fall.

I'm not compelled by the tale of original sin. I question Adam and Eve's free will, and the idea that we should be punished for their alleged mistake, I find absurd.

It is a fact that free will (defined as: an ability to have done otherwise) cannot be tested. Even regardless of whether it is real, it is a massive design flaw that it can't be proven to be real. You would think that god would have made a property so central to the classic christian argument provable.

 

[Rubypie41]

Maybe there is no God and you are talking about a fictional character made up by humans.

 

[Infinite Solipsist]

The purpose of the Abrahamic religions was to form the basis of a society that could easily be manipulated from the top. Nothing more and nothing less. That being said, it's hard to imagine an alternative history without Christianity that could lead to the globalized and industrialized societies we have today. You may say, "What about the dark ages?" I would argue that without Christianity, there wouldn't have been any real reason for our European ancestors to create things like literacy, art, musical notation, or education. Another thing to consider is a lot of the catholic clergy were also responsible for scientific advancements. They would have been restricted to a life of farming for a feudal lord instead receiving education---if they would have been born at all. That being said, as much as I rage about our inequalities in the United States, I'd much rather have HVAC-R and this wonderful magic box in front of me instead of a life of manual toil in someone else's field. This is about the full extent of my respect towards the god of Abraham. Polytheistic religions are just too far out there for me unless you believe those gods were actually extraterrestrial aliens (which would be awesome) though I'll admit that some of the ancient roman cults have some pretty cool lore that I like to read as fiction.

 

[Infinite Solipsist]

I'm not compelled by the tale of original sin. I question Adam and Eve's free will, and the idea that we should be punished for their alleged mistake, I find absurd.

It is a fact that free will (defined as: an ability to have done otherwise) cannot be tested. Even regardless of whether it is real, it is a massive design flaw that it can't be proven to be real. You would think that god would have made a property so central to the classic christian argument provable.

Your username is well fitting. The way I see it, if this universe was actually made by an omnipotent being, then it absolutely would have to be deterministic. The only way it could be truly free is if god wasn't actually all-powerful and is unable to see into the future. If that is true, then why should he be worshiped? A deterministic reality would essentially just be a giant computer simulation and would be diametrically opposed to the concept of free will. And if god is omnipotent, then god would have already known what exactly Adam and Eve were going to do. In that case, why even fucking make something you already know isn't going to do what you want? So either we live in the equivalent of a computer simulation that serves some purpose or everything is truly meaningless and came about by random chance. I think Occam's razor applies in this case: There is no meaning and there is no evidence to the contrary.

 

[Superdeterminist]

Your username is well fitting. The way I see it, if this universe was actually made by an omnipotent being, then it absolutely would have to be deterministic. The only way it could be truly free is if god wasn't actually all-powerful and is unable to see into the future. If that is true, then why should he be worshiped? A deterministic reality would essentially just be a giant computer simulation and would be diametrically opposed to the concept of free will. And if god is omnipotent, then god would have already known what exactly Adam and Eve were going to do. In that case, why even fucking make something you already know isn't going to do what you want? So either we live in the equivalent of a computer simulation that serves some purpose or everything is truly meaningless and came about by random chance. I think Occam's razor applies in this case: There is no meaning and there is no evidence to the contrary.

In my opinion, suffering is the metric according to which we should decide whether god is worthy of worship. Since our reality evidently contains suffering (and extreme amounts of it no less), I conclude that the potential god of our reality is unworthy of worship.

I think that if god could not see the future, he would lack omniscience, and would therefore fail to qualify as a god.

I of course can't claim to know that determinism is true, it's merely a belief of mine. I think free will is best defined as an ability to have done differently - it's not clear to me what god would know or not know assuming we had this ability. But many theists like to say both that we have this ability, and god always knows what you will do - there's no explicit contradiction here. It's just that, I really feel like we don't have that ability.

 

[Infinite Solipsist]

In my opinion, suffering is the metric according to which we should decide whether god is worthy of worship. Since our reality evidently contains suffering (and extreme amounts of it no less), I conclude that the potential god of our reality is unworthy of worship.

I think that if god could not see the future, he would lack omniscience, and would therefore fail to qualify as a god.

I of course can't claim to know that determinism is true, it's merely a belief of mine. I think free will is best defined as an ability to have done differently - it's not clear to me what god would know or not know assuming we had this ability. But many theists like to say both that we have this ability, and god always knows what you will do - there's no explicit contradiction here. It's just that, I really feel like we don't have that ability.

I can 100% agree that a (monolithic) god that allows this much suffering in the world is completely unworthy of worship but I think you may be trapped in viewing religion through the lens of monotheism. Most polytheistic religions don't normally view their king god as being omnipotent. I imagine that's why there is such a variety of different gods that serve in different roles. One of the beauties of religious belief is that you can come up with anything that makes sense to you and you still have the same chance that your prayers will be effective anyways.

I've always struggled with the concept of free will ever since I was old enough to think for myself. The flavors of organized Christianity (that I'm familiar with) posit that God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and supremely-benevolent. Our supposed free will should be nothing compared to God's all powerful knowledge. If God is truly all-knowing, and if there truly is a heaven or hell, then God already knew everyone's fate eons before we ever had the chance to exist. I struggle to see how anyone could have free will if our creator already knew what would happen.

Omnibenevolence is a sick joke. All one has to do is take a cursory look at the average human's condition. Anyone who legitimately believes God is supremely good is far more insane than my (possibly) schizophrenic self.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Also, if you grow poisonous plants in your garden, and warn your neighbors not to eat them, and they still sneak over and eat, is that then your fault?

But the question I suppose is- why do you want those poisonous plants in your garden? Because you like the look of them? Because you feel you have the right to have them and it's up to other people to keep themselves safe?

Let's say you are someone who propogates plants and you have the knowledge and means to make them even more deadly. Do you do it? Why would you do it?

If you are a creator that has a choice on how to design things- which I assume God has- what motivation is there to design things the way they have been? For example, the African Eye Worm can only survive by burrowing into the eyes of other creatures and eating them- causing blindness. Why would God do that?!! Surely, there could have been other ways? Creatures literally have to inflict extreme cruelty on other creatures in this world in order to survive.

Why create beings that can make sinful 'mistakes' unless you want an excuse for punishing them?

It seems to me like the prime attribute God/ religions want is obedience. They have created a being that can reason and doubt and likely will doubt their existence because they've decided not to reveal themselves. Presumably, because they want to test our faith. All just seems weird behaviour to a supposedly omnipotent being. Why would they even need a fan club?!!

Sorry- I'm not meaning to have a go at you. I just have big problems with religion and even bigger problems with God- if there is one.

 

[Superdeterminist]

I can 100% agree that a (monolithic) god that allows this much suffering in the world is completely unworthy of worship but I think you may be trapped in viewing religion through the lens of monotheism. .

I do consider the possibility of multiple gods. I learned that certain gnostic groups held the creator of this reality (the god of the old testament) to be a "malevolent demiurge" called Yaldabaoth who keeps souls trapped here, and Jesus was sent by the true god to save us from this reality. They believed the serpent in Eden was good, freeing Adam and Eve from his control by helping to bring them knowledge.

Something like that makes far more sense to me than the idea of a good god being responsible for this world. That just cannot be.

 

[LifeIsBS]

Maybe there is no God and you are talking about a fictional character made up by humans.

that's what i think, and i also think that - if there is an entity above everything in this universe than that is either a species who created this universe as a test experiment, or entities that created this as a simulation, or it could all be just a big accident. our concept of god is just there as a temporary "meaning" to everything (i.e. why do i exist? etc) that sentience crave until we find true answers.

 

[KillingPain267]

If you are a creator that has a choice on how to design things- which I assume God has- what motivation is there to design things the way they have been? For example, the African Eye Worm can only survive by burrowing into the eyes of other creatures and eating them- causing blindness. Why would God do that?!! Surely, there could have been other ways? Creatures literally have to inflict extreme cruelty on other creatures in this world in order to survive.

No, they were not originally created like that. Death came to the whole creation too only after humans sinned, according to Paul in Romans. So either that worm didn't exist or it mutated to do such things after humans ate the forbidden fruit.

It's easy, God just made the forbidden tree so that humans would have a choice in free will to obey God or not. He didn't MAKE the eat it. I don't understand why this is so hard a concept to grasp.

 

[Forever Sleep]

No, they were not originally created like that. Death came to the whole creation too only after humans sinned, according to Paul in Romans. So either that worm didn't exist or it mutated to do such things after humans ate the forbidden fruit.

It's easy, God just made the forbidden tree so that humans would have a choice in free will to obey God or not. He didn't MAKE the eat it. I don't understand why this is so hard a concept to grasp.

It's because God is seen as a designer, creator who has infinite knowledge and more importantly- intention. Does that mean you think 'he' didn't mean for the negative consequences to happen after humans ate the forbidden fruit? Surely 'he' knew and realised what would happen. So- 'he' wanted for there to be the possibility of suffering. Especially if humans didn't bend to 'his' will. 'He' wants to punish people. Clearly- 'he' enjoys it and feels justified in doing it. Otherwise, 'he' would have created a species that doesn't question. That automatically obeys. Or, nothing would have been off limits. Or, when they broke the rules, they would have gotten a strong reprimand but it would have ended there.

What kind of being insists on that kind of loyalty? What kind of being goes on to punish billions of generations because their great, great, great to almost infinity long lost relative ate some fruit they weren't supposed to?

It's not that it's hard to grasp. It's that it just seems so perplexing to me. Why create a species that will likely want to disobey you unless you want to punish it? I just don't understand the why. It seems sadistic to me.

The crux of it for me is- If all this is about teaching us a lesson, I simply don't like the style. I don't think that punishing creatures. Especially when they haven't done anything wrong themselves is the way to get the best out of them. So, I'm really hoping there isn't a God because I can't get my head around how they could be fair or loving.

That all said, it's not terribly fair of me to argue it because I have strong doubts as to whether a God even exists. Plus, I think religion can be a comfort to people in life and I think that can be a good thing. So, I hope I haven't offended you.

 

[Sunset Limited]

God, as a metaphysical element, derives the source of his existence not from the nature and functioning of the universe, but from the way the human brain processes the universe. God is the simplest and most primitive way to explain the universe and existence. If the idea of god had never been invented by now, someone would have made it in 24 hours.

If there really is a God, everything that is happening in the universe right now is as he wishes. Because God knows one hundred percent the potential of His creation. There are no surprises for him. If there is a surprise, it is not God. This means that we are talking about an entity that can organize the material of the universe, just like us. The idea of a god who doesn't take responsibility for the consequences of his creation is bs.

 

[Infinite Solipsist]

God, as a metaphysical element, derives the source of his existence not from the nature and functioning of the universe, but from the way the human brain processes the universe. God is the simplest and most primitive way to explain the universe and existence. If the idea of god had never been invented by now, someone would have made it in 24 hours.

If there really is a God, everything that is happening in the universe right now is as he wishes. Because God knows one hundred percent the potential of His creation. There are no surprises for him. If there is a surprise, it is not God. This means that we are talking about an entity that can organize the material of the universe, just like us. The idea of a god who doesn't take responsibility for the consequences of his creation is bs.

Your first point is a very interesting one. You can take that concept a bit further and say that the observer of the universe is the actual avatar of god.

Everything you are saying in your second paragraph is only true if God is omniscient. Alternatively, you can view such a figure as acting like an incompetent computer programmer. Maybe humanity is just an unfortunate byproduct or error of whatever process the universe was intentionally created for. It's a large universe compared to the power of a single human mind. Seems kinda unnecessary to create so many galaxies and stars if the universe only exists for humanity.