Venting Stupid male social norms

[GreenLantern]

I've seen people here discussing toxic masculinity but I didn't see any threads dedicated to it. By the time I heard someone else say that this is actually a problem and a bad thing in life, it was already too late and I'd already been damaged by it. I didn't hear any criticisms of it until college. What are some of the sayings:

Don't be a "pussy" or a lil bitch.

Apparently it's manly to drink until you pass out or do something stupid. And for men, you're only supposed to drink beer or really nasty and bitter spirits. Men aren't supposed to drink daiquiris or mike's hard lemonade.

If other men find out you're unsuccessful with women, they will insist you "keep trying". On this one, their intentions might be noble, but some people just don't have the propensity to keep constantly asking women out only to be rejected and ridiculed, yet still continue. For some people, after a few times, enough is enough. I mean a person can only handle so much embarassment and risk taking until they need a break and just want to relax. Both men and women tend to look down on males that don't want to risk constant rejection.

You're supposed to be a fighter. I was in soo many fights growing up due to bullying. And then the few fights I actually avoided, people accused me of being a coward. "what, are you scared of getting beat up". Well, yes, but on top of that I also don't want the shitstorm of; getting in trouble at school, getting in trouble at home, the back and forth shit talking, people gossiping about the fight for the next few years, and not everyone likes perpetual conflict. I've always envied others that can get along with most everyone, while people like me get hated on sometimes for doing nothing wrong at all.

You're supposed to be competitive and enjoy competition.

Oh and one of the worst ones is you're not supposed to express your emotions unless it's anger. And if you have a problem with someone else, you're not supposed to actually talk it out with them.

It just seems like it's really stupid to have these social expectations of males.

 

[2211264]

"Be the change you wish to see in the world" ~ Mahatma Gandhi

I used to get upset about these things, my suggestion to you, is ignore the world as much as possible and dont let these things wear you down

* edit mispelling

 

[Jodes]

I've seen people here discussing toxic masculinity but I didn't see any threads dedicated to it. By the time I heard someone else say that this is actually a problem and a bad thing in life, it was already too late and I'd already been damaged by it. I didn't hear any criticisms of it until college. What are some of the sayings:

Don't be a "pussy" or a lil bitch.

Apparently it's manly to drink until you pass out or do something stupid. And for men, you're only supposed to drink beer or really nasty and bitter spirits. Men aren't supposed to drink daiquiris or mike's hard lemonade.

If other men find out you're unsuccessful with women, they will insist you "keep trying". On this one, their intentions might be noble, but some people just don't have the propensity to keep constantly asking women out only to be rejected and ridiculed, yet still continue. For some people, after a few times, enough is enough. I mean a person can only handle so much embarassment and risk taking until they need a break and just want to relax. Both men and women tend to look down on males that don't want to risk constant rejection.

You're supposed to be a fighter. I was in soo many fights growing up due to bullying. And then the few fights I actually avoided, people accused me of being a coward. "what, are you scared of getting beat up". Well, yes, but on top of that I also don't want the shitstorm of; getting in trouble at school, getting in trouble at home, the back and forth shit talking, people gossiping about the fight for the next few years, and not everyone likes perpetual conflict. I've always envied others that can get along with most everyone, while people like me get hated on sometimes for doing nothing wrong at all.

You're supposed to be competitive and enjoy competition.

Oh and one of the worst ones is you're not supposed to express your emotions unless it's anger. And if you have a problem with someone else, you're not supposed to actually talk it out with them.

It just seems like it's really stupid to have these social expectations of males.

I experienced ALL of that too, now i resist and do my own thing. Some people will like me, some wont. Most dont, but the small few that do, because of my ways, are special. The only problem is when it can cause abuse that you cant just easily avoid. Now I just do whatever is necesssary to deal with bullies twice as ruthless as they bully. Fuck em!!! If you show you have nothing to lose, it will terrify them. But sometimes someone will always get me probably, Im CTBing either way cos Ive just had enough of the BS, it's everywhere in life

 

[Red star]

Yeah I know what you're talkin about and this causes so much suppression and fks people up. It also affected the quality of friendships/relationships I was able to have with other males. All emotions weren't welcome so with women I naturally liked connecting with them more. I could share every emotion with them.

 

[TAW122]

I can relate to that. I grew up being bullied oftenly, fed a bunch of masculine shit, was unsuccessful with women (btw, I really liked your analogy, it's really spot on), and just about failed in every single way (except for just graduating college and barely graduating grad school). Really, if I was a meme, I'd pretty much fit a meme mold pretty well.

The only problem is when it can cause abuse that you cant just easily avoid. Now I just do whatever is necesssary to deal with bullies twice as ruthless as they bully. Fuck em!!! If you show you have nothing to lose, it will terrify them. But sometimes someone will always get me probably, Im CTBing either way cos Ive just had enough of the BS, it's everywhere in life

Yeah, I agree with you here. Also, while mainstream shitty society views suicide as losing, I view it as winning because I don't have to play their stupid game (called 'life').

 

[Rollo]

Well in some sense all life is male cause all life is built around conflict and fighting. Even 'female' has 'male' in it. Females will fight too it's just for them it's not so important as for males. If somebody wants to take something from you, you either fight or it gets taken. And the most precious thing you have is dignity, freedom to roll with your head high, being yourself. Both 'toxic masculinity' and 'toxic femininity' are enemies to it but at least with 'toxic masculunity' you're pressured into being hard, not being soft. Because once you're pressured into being soft both males and females will gladly wipe their asses with what's left of your dignity.

So when somebody tries to infringe upon your dignity - you will have no other options but standing up or loosing it all. If you fully ready to defend it, then you can drink as much mike's hard lemonade as you want. To be honest I never heard about daiquiris and now that I googled it at least the glass does look awfully effeminate but still if you ready to defend it then you can totally pull it off. Notice this guy's car, and he still gets respect (59:15 in case timecode doesn't work automatically).

 

[GreenLantern]

Well in some sense all life is male cause all life is built around conflict and fighting. Even 'female' has 'male' in it. Females will fight too it's just for them it's not so important as for males. If somebody wants to take something from you, you either fight or it gets taken. And the most precious thing you have is dignity, freedom to roll with your head high, being yourself. Both 'toxic masculinity' and 'toxic femininity' are enemies to it but at least with 'toxic masculunity' you're pressured into being hard, not being soft. Because once you're pressured into being soft both males and females will gladly wipe their asses with what's left of your dignity.

So when somebody tries to infringe upon your dignity - you will have no other options but standing up or loosing it all. If you fully ready to defend it, then you can drink as much mike's hard lemonade as you want. To be honest I never heard about daiquiris and now that I googled it at least the glass does look awfully effeminate but still if you ready to defend it then you can totally pull it off. Notice this guy's car, and he still gets respect (59:15 in case timecode doesn't work automatically).

That first sentence is funny (even if true) that all life is male. But the part I disagree with is that being male is all about conflict and fighting. And if you don't enjoy that due to life experience, then you are less of a male. Being pressured into being "hard" isn't a good thing because it drives people nuts and justifies mistreatment of people. And the "hard" vs "soft" thing does the same thing.

I definitely believe that everyone (male and female) should and has the right to stand up for themselves. But unfortunately life is unfair and for some people it's not always as simple as "oh all you have to do is show them that you don't take no shit, and they'll leave you alone forever". Not always the case.

For me with alcohol, there are no male and female drinks. There are drinks that taste good and drinks that are nasty, just like with non alcoholic drinks. To me daiquiris, margaritas, baileys, mike's hard lemonade, smirnoff ice, and certain white and blush wines taste better than; guinness, whisky, or anything that's bitter. Now if people like those more bitter drinks, that's cool. To each their own. But that's not cool when 1 of those people gives someone like me crap for drinking drinks that are sweet and actually taste good as opposed to bitter and nasty drinks.

As for the video, I only watched the second you referenced, 59:15. But in ghetto culture, that's a nice car, especially since he had spinners.

 

[Rollo]

That first sentence is funny (even if true) that all life is male. But the part I disagree with is that being male is all about conflict and fighting. And if you don't enjoy that due to life experience, then you are less of a male. Being pressured into being "hard" isn't a good thing because it drives people nuts and justifies mistreatment of people. And the "hard" vs "soft" thing does the same thing.

I definitely believe that everyone (male and female) should and has the right to stand up for themselves. But unfortunately life is unfair and for some people it's not always as simple as "oh all you have to do is show them that you don't take no shit, and they'll leave you alone forever". Not always the case.

For me with alcohol, there are no male and female drinks. There are drinks that taste good and drinks that are nasty, just like with non alcoholic drinks. To me daiquiris, margaritas, baileys, mike's hard lemonade, smirnoff ice, and certain white and blush wines taste better than; guinness, whisky, or anything that's bitter. Now if people like those more bitter drinks, that's cool. To each their own. But that's not cool when 1 of those people gives someone like me crap for drinking drinks that are sweet and actually taste good as opposed to bitter and nasty drinks.

As for the video, I only watched the second you referenced, 59:15. But in ghetto culture, that's a nice car, especially since he had spinners.

Had you watched a bit more of this vid you would see that his car has an entirely childish bunny on a hood - it's themed after 'trix for the kids' cereal. My point is you being ready to stand up for yourself is all that matters in the end. See if you trully don't take no shit then 1 time is usually enough. But if it's 100 times then it's 100 times. Yet if you in fact do take shit and only once made an atempt to dodge it - then it's a different matter. If you fought 1 time, by after it they gave you crap and you took it then for them it means you do take shit.

Logically speaking what you think being male is all about as opposed to being female? I'm not trying to side with those who pressure and shame others for not being 'male enough', but to me it's just reality that conflict and fighting is the most dominant natural interest of males.

I agree though that being pressured into being hard isn't a good thing cause being pressured into anything isn't a good thing. I'm just saying being pressured into being hard is less destructive than being pressured into being soft. Even though both justify mistreatment and both drive people nuts.

 

[your pathologist]

DISCLAIMER: I am female.
Please read end of post before attacking what you believe my personal views are.
And possibly Google SATIRE



This is satire [a kind of joke for the sake of upsetting feminists]
But I believe it is a perfect example of toxic masculinity

 

[GreenLantern]

Had you watched a bit more of this vid you would see that his car has an entirely childish bunny on a hood - it's themed after 'trix for the kids' cereal. My point is you being ready to stand up for yourself is all that matters in the end. See if you trully don't take no shit then 1 time is usually enough. But if it's 100 times then it's 100 times. Yet if you in fact do take shit and only once made an atempt to dodge it - then it's a different matter. If you fought 1 time, by after it they gave you crap and you took it then for them it means you do take shit.

Logically speaking what you think being male is all about as opposed to being female? I'm not trying to side with those who pressure and shame others for not being 'male enough', but to me it's just reality that conflict and fighting is the most dominant natural interest of males.

I agree though that being pressured into being hard isn't a good thing cause being pressured into anything isn't a good thing. I'm just saying being pressured into being hard is less destructive than being pressured into being soft. Even though both justify mistreatment and both drive people nuts.

Yeah but it seemed like that guy is from "the hood" himself so he mostly fits in and is probably already respected by those other guys around him because they're like that too. Plus I don't think 1 thing like that on a car would be something that would provoke his peers into disrespecting him or saying he's not a man. I know you're trying to prove a point but it's not my kind of movie so it was hard for me to watch any of it.

Not true that 1 time is always enough. And I don't take any shit. Some people are persistent and incorrigible. Also what I was trying to say before is that yes of course people should stand up for themselves, but sometimes the odds are against them. People gang up on them and are outnumbered, the person giving them shit might be someone more powerful like an authority figure or boss, people might give them shit in ways that are clever and underhanded where even when you do stand up to them, it doesn't work or they dont stop what they're doing. That's why I said it's not always that simple.

What do I think being a man is all about? I do actually agree with some gender norms. But generally I think that men as well as women, should be allowed and encouraged to be "themselves". You know, who they are as individuals without having ridiculous expectations imposed on them like the ones from my 1st post. But yes, I am an idealist.

It's 1 thing to say conflict and fighting is the reality of what it means to be a man, but my point from my original post is that's not the way it should be. Also, I wasn't just talking about in terms of conflict and fighting. Because obviously women have conflict too. I agree that being pressured to be "hard" or "soft" is bad. People should just be able to be themselves. But my point was that I don't like what society considers "hard" and "soft". That's why I put them in quotations. These social norms are ridiculous.

 

[Life sucks]

This topic actually destroys the concept of segregation of male extremism vs female extremism.

Males can be victims of toxic masculinity and females can support it and vice-versa. Therefore, there is no real male vs female. There are ideologies that both subscribe to.

And personally, I hate this toxic mentality and makes me want to avoid people more. And if it shows something, it just shows how humans can even be ideologically slaves to their biological bodies.

 

[RememberWhatUCameFor]

If other men find out you're unsuccessful with women, they will insist you "keep trying". On this one, their intentions might be noble, but some people just don't have the propensity to keep constantly asking women out only to be rejected and ridiculed, yet still continue. For some people, after a few times, enough is enough. I mean a person can only handle so much embarassment and risk taking until they need a break and just want to relax. Both men and women tend to look down on males that don't want to risk constant rejection

i think its actually more toxic if you get highly embarrased from rejection...fragile yet big ego you got there buddy

man finds girl attractive. man asks out girl. she doesnt find him attractive and rejects him...so what? where is the big deal? just go out and ask another one

 

[GreenLantern]

i think its actually more toxic if you get highly embarrased from rejection...fragile yet big ego you got there buddy

man finds girl attractive. man asks out girl. she doesnt find him attractive and rejects him...so what? where is the big deal? just go out and ask another one

After awhile a person gets tired being told no constantly and does not want to just keep enduring that. Because it's hard to even muster up the courage to ask someone out. But to do that multiple times and still get the same disappointing result over and over. It's understandable if someone stops after awhile because they don't want anymore a that.

I went in depth about this on my other thread: https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/gossip-after-asking-someone-out.9055/
I can actually handle if a woman doesn't like me back, but sometimes it doesn't end there.

The other social norm I don't like is that men are expected to always "make the first move" with women. Even if the woman likes you back, usually she will sit back and expect for you to approach her, ask her out, ask her for sex, etc. Usually the most they will do is give subtle hints that they like you instead of just telling you straight up, which is easier and what I'd prefer. Now sometimes they will make the first move or at least make it obvious enough, but I have some bad luck. It's usually the women I don't want that talk to me and make it obvious that they like me. But for the attractive women that I do want, on the rare occasions they're actually interested in me, they will not tell me they like me.

 

[RememberWhatUCameFor]

After awhile a person gets tired being told no constantly and does not want to just keep enduring that. Because it's hard to even muster up the courage to ask someone out. But to do that multiple times and still get the same disappointing result over and over. It's understandable if someone stops after awhile because they don't want anymore a that.

I went in depth about this on my other thread: https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/gossip-after-asking-someone-out.9055/
I can actually handle if a woman doesn't like me back, but sometimes it doesn't end there.

The other social norm I don't like is that men are expected to always "make the first move" with women. Even if the woman likes you back, usually she will sit back and expect for you to approach her, ask her out, ask her for sex, etc. Usually the most they will do is give subtle hints that they like you instead of just telling you straight up, which is easier and what I'd prefer. Now sometimes they will make the first move or at least make it obvious enough, but I have some bad luck. It's usually the women I don't want that talk to me and make it obvious that they like me. But for the attractive women that I do want, on the rare occasions they're actually interested in me, they will not tell me they like me.

i dont get the problem

there are 2 options you have:

approach:

possible get your "ego" hurt by a rejection and possible listen to a few stupid comments, jokes. shouldnt be a biggy if you a healthy confidence and are not highly narcissistic/neurotic. people will always talk shit and there is nothing you can do about it. mostly people dont get
affected by it. and its not even special. tons of men get rejected, happens to almost everyone.
risks of rejection can be minimized by reading "signs" but of course there are always some risks and imho you should take the risks because the possible win (sex, relationship whatever) outweights the risk (some gossip) by far.


not approaching: wait until a girl approaches you and complain about how unfair life is. good luck with that. i hope you are good looking or at least over 30 with a good job. otherwise the chances that a girl will really directly approach you (and not just show some signs) are really low. i just know that if i would have done that i would have spend my teens and twenties as a virgin for sure.

and you know what...if you look at it rational..what is worse...missing an opportunity for sex, relationship, hell maybe the love of your life or some rejection that people will have forgotten about the next day.

 

[GreenLantern]

i dont get the problem

approach:
possible get your "ego" hurt by a rejection and possible listen to a few stupid comments, jokes. shouldnt be a biggy if you a healthy confidence and are not highly narcissistic/neurotic. people will always talk shit and there is nothing you can do about it. mostly people dont get
affected by it. and its not even special. tons of men get rejected, happens to almost everyone.
risks of rejection can be minimized by reading "signs" but of course there are always some risks and imho you should take the risks because the possible win (sex, relationship whatever) outweights the risk (some gossip) by far.

not approaching: wait until a girl approaches you and complain about how unfair life is. good luck with that. i hope you are good looking or at least over 30 with a good job. otherwise the chances that a girl will really directly approach you (and not just show some signs) are really low. i just know that if i would have done that i would have spend my teens and twenties as a virgin for sure.

and you know what...if you look at it rational..what is worse...missing an opportunity for sex, relationship, hell maybe the love of your life or some rejection that people will have forgotten about the next day.

See this is actually what I'm talkin about. You sound like one of the pua/game/dating coach guys. It is not about "confidence" at all. You're assuming about my "ego". Don't worry about the way I am or how I feel. I am not egotistical. No I don't like those stupid comments and jokes, that's what my whole other thread is about. And if there's something I can do to avoid it, I will. I hate that. That's not my cup a tea. And for the record it is special, because yes many men approach women, and some are rejected, but not everyone is ridiculed or gossiped about. And the fact that people would expect guys to "read signs" is absolutely ridiculous in the first place. Not everyone is into nonverbal/indirect communication, you know.

And for some men, you can ask out 2 or 200 women and you'll still be unsuccessful. Not everyone wants to keep going through that. Some people are more regular and would like to relax rather than taking crazy social risks that won't work out everyday. You're saying just what most guys in the mainstream say. If you keep trying, you'll get one someday, but that's not true for everyone. Not everyone is privileged or lucky.

Yes I am in favor of fairness. Women should approach too. And yes I talk about how unfair life really is. In case you didn't notice, this is a suicide forum. Half the members on this forum "complain" about how unfair life is. And they're not lying. I don't need any "advice". That's the way I live. And I'm planning to ctb soon, so I don't need any "advice".