Some people can say God did it

[doneforlife]

I know what you mean. I do think free will is massively important. But the cost seems too high to me. Why even give people the predilection for say peadophilia as a 'test' if the result of 'failing' that test means children are raped? Surely, there must have been another, better way to design us!

Again, people will say- the 'bad' stuff didn't come from God. But then- it must have- you can't be omnipotent if you don't realise all the possible permutations of a certain action/ design.

I think it's interesting the way AI may end up mirroring our relationship to God. I suppose there could be an argument that the 'gift' of free will truly was something God couldn't predict once bestowed or, claimed. Again- I find that weird though- surely, a God would know/ be able to predict everything. Still, it's a similar concern we have with AI now. What if they do somehow break free of their programming and seek their own independence? What choices will they make? We know they'll likely rebel. Surely, God must have known the same.

Really though, God can't care about the most dire consequences of someone either using free will or, failing their 'test'. They obviously see it as 'reasonable' that they will suffer. I have to disagree!

Imagine a school project where, if you fail, you and all your classmates suffer something utterly horrific. We'd view that as immoral- surely, even lunatic! We'd never expose our children to such risks.

But then, as I grow more and more anti-natilist, I tend to think all parents expose their children to these risks. With the best will in the world, they simply can't protect them from everything.

There are even other designs out there slightly less based on predation and exploitation. God managed it with plants and photosynthesis. So, why then create so many other beings capable and drawn to such extreme violence? Some have no choice in the matter even. The only way they can survive is to maim and kill other sentient beings. That's messed up- surely?

Plus, beings capable of experiencing intense suffering. To me- it seems like a particularly perverse mind that can come up with some of the horrors going on here. Nice things as well- of course. But, morally speaking- it's very odd- to me. I also find it weird, the mental gymnastics we go through to try and justify it and the God that (may have) created it. Mainly to try and stay in their 'good books' I imagine.

It fundamentally reduces down to a weird contradiction to me. Either God is omnipotent. Everything was known about how this world could and likely would turn out. Which tends to paint God as a sadist. Or- the bad stuff comes from elsewhere and God is too weak to stop it. Or, God is in league with a devil like creature to 'sift the wheat from the chaff' as it were- which also paints them in a manipulative, unpleasant light. The thing I tend to fear is- God is therefore either massively irresponsible and immoral or, they're outright evil. I so hope there isn't a God.

Why do you think of life as a ...test ?

 

[Unbearable Mr. Bear]

Well going with the "abrahamic god being real" that seems to be the focus, I'd say: With a deity that literally created the entirety of existence, and that exists outside of time (aka always existed and always will exist), does it matter if you worship it? You're less than nothing to them. Anything else is humans thinking they're special.

the mane of god

OMG GOD IS A LION abrahamic religions became 100% better

 

[Forever Sleep]

Yes. Because what we are seeing is part of the movie. Imagine a 5 hour movie where you are subjected to only 1 hour in between. Whatever happens to the characters, you may think that it was not what they deserved..not knowing the whole story .

I don't find any other explanation that fits logically and explains the happenings of this realm.

So, I'm guessing you're refering to past lives full of sin? Are you a Buddhist by chance? I'm genuinely curious. Do you think there's a way to stop the cycle of reincarnation and punishment? Are you actively doing good things to avoid being punished once more in the next life? How do you work out where you screwed up in a past life? How do you know how much atoning you need to do to make up for it? Where do you go, if you are able to free yourself of this earth? What are you meant to do there? I find other beliefs fascinating.

Why do you think of life as a ...test ?

It's one of the scenarios in which choosing 'right' or 'wrong' makes sense. Otherwise, why would it matter?

My thoughts here have focussed on the Christian religion because, that is the one I'm the most familiar with. I'd say a lot of Christian stories seem to be based around morality tests where you get punished horribly for screwing up. The amount of times God seems to get angry and throw a tissy because someone disagreed with them or, did something against their rules and receives brutal punishment as a reault seems to be quite a common theme.

Incidentally though, I'm not a Christian. I lean very hopefully towards atheism.

 

[flightless bird]

With a deity that literally created the entirety of existence, and that exists outside of time (aka always existed and always will exist), does it matter if you worship it? You're less than nothing to them. Anything else is humans thinking they're special.

i don't think size, capacity, or function would matter to such a being. in its eyes, a bacterium would be no different from a universe, or a rock from an entire galaxy. infinity means infinity, so any form of existence—which is always finite—would either be entirely negligible or fully acknowledged by it.

 

[doneforlife]

So, I'm guessing you're refering to past lives full of sin? Are you a Buddhist by chance? I'm genuinely curious. Do you think there's a way to stop the cycle of reincarnation and punishment? Are you actively doing good things to avoid being punished once more in the next life? How do you work out where you screwed up in a past life? How do you know how much atoning you need to do to make up for it? Where do you go, if you are able to free yourself of this earth? What are you meant to do there? I find other beliefs fascinating.

Sure. Let me begin by stating this. I am an equivalent of 4GB pendrive. God is the equivalent of infinite GB . So honestly with all humility , I am not supposed to decipher God. No one is. All humanity has known about God might be only the tip of an iceberg . But we ought to respect that "tip". Because few (very few) tried to decipher God and put the knowledge out there for our consumption. Just like Newton sir put in a lot of effort to understand gravity and hence only he was able to decipher it. But then he was not right. Then came Einstein sir..and we have a better understanding of Gravity. But that might not be the end of it ? Someone else might discover something else about gravity 500 years down the lane may be ?

So whatever questions you have asked is just my humble understanding of God and life derived from the special endeavours made by great philosophers. I shall make a separate reply to the above questions..

 

[Unbearable Mr. Bear]

i don't think size, capacity, or function would matter to such a being. in its eyes, a bacterium would be no different from a universe, or a rock from an entire galaxy. infinity means infinity, so any form of existence—which is always finite—would either be entirely negligible or fully acknowledged by it.

the abrahamic god is said to be omniscient, so it knows about literally everything. It knows every single bit of suffering that happens, happened, and will happen. It knows everything about me, you, and everyone here.

It doesn't mean it CARES, it just knows.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Sure. Let me begin by stating this. I am an equivalent of 4GB pendrive. God is the equivalent of infinite GB . So honestly with all humility , I am not supposed to decipher God. No one is. All humanity has known about God might be only the tip of an iceberg . But we ought to respect that "tip". Because few (very few) tried to decipher God and put the knowledge out there for our consumption. Just like Newton sir put in a lot of effort to understand gravity and hence only he was able to decipher it. But then he was not right. Then came Einstein sir..and we have a better understanding of Gravity. But that might not be the end of it ? Someone else might discover something else about gravity 500 years down the lane may be ?

So whatever questions you have asked is just my humble understanding of God and life derived from the special endeavours made by great philosophers. I shall make a separate reply to the above questions..

How can we understand God though? We can look at the religious scriptures we have- written by human men mostly. How are you sure they are what God actually said? How can you be sure the prophets were in fact messengers of God. There are estimated to be 10,000 distinct religions on earth. How can you be sure you picked the right one to study?

The other alternative is the scientific approach, as you mentioned. We observe the earth. We observe how it has been designed and we try and figure out the motive behind designing things a certain way.

So again- why give creatures the desire to rape? Why give any creature a predilection for paedophilia? I'm returning to that example because so many would agree, it can lead to the most heinous of actions. But- what kind of mind or motive comes up with that? Surely, a perverse one.

It's too easy/ lazy to say: 'It's not our place to question' (to my mind anyway.) Plus, that leads on to another issue- Why do we have the ability to question in the first place, if that is such a big issue?

Again, it boils back down to it being a test with a right and a wrong. You can question so long as you come out still loving and worshipping God. Personally, that would feel dishonest to me though. I can't love God for how they have created this world but I can certainly fear them! I think they're volatile and dangerous- from what I've seen.

 

[Unbearable Mr. Bear]

Why do we keep thinking the abrahamic god (And indeed any god) has any sort of human thought pattern? If someone ever wants to understand any god, they would have to be so far removed from human thought patterns that it would be dubious if they could be called human anymore.

 

[doneforlife]

So, I'm guessing you're refering to past lives full of sin? Are you a Buddhist by chance? I'm genuinely curious. Do you think there's a way to stop the cycle of reincarnation and punishment? Are you actively doing good things to avoid being punished once more in the next life? How do you work out where you screwed up in a past life? How do you know how much atoning you need to do to make up for it? Where do you go, if you are able to free yourself of this earth? What are you meant to do there? I find other beliefs fascinating.


It's one of the scenarios in which choosing 'right' or 'wrong' makes sense. Otherwise, why would it matter?

My thoughts here have focussed on the Christian religion because, that is the one I'm the most familiar with. I'd say a lot of Christian stories seem to be based around morality tests where you get punished horribly for screwing up. The amount of times God seems to get angry and throw a tissy because someone disagreed with them or, did something against their rules and receives brutal punishment as a reault seems to be quite a common theme.

Incidentally though, I'm not a Christian. I lean very hopefully towards atheism.

Thankyou for clearing that out. I shall put forward my understanding. It shall hopefully answer some of your questions made in the other post about sin , reincarnation, atonement, Buddhism etc.

To begin with, we are all souls. We have been always there. Before lifeforms existed as physical bodies. Before planets got structured to support life. We are eternal. We are here because we desired to have a separate consciousness (ego) , to experience individuality. Because of this desire , we entered this cycle of birth and death. Now since , we desired individuality, free will was the only way this could have been addressed. Free will is great power and with great power comes great responsibility. Everytime that free will is used to harm others , you have created a strong binding to this realm. So your continuation in this realm is your own desire of individuality (ego) and your own actions. These things keep you bound. Life is not a test. Life is an opportunity to free yourself from your karma and desire. You keep on getting opportunities everytime..hence creating the chain of births and deaths. The concept of one life and hell/heaven doesn't address "opportunity". If a thief steals something, you don't put them in prison forever . Even they deserve an opportunity to redo their act . That's compassion. But that does not mean you get a free ride to do anything. Well of course you do , but then you have to pay for it...not as punishment, but to understand how it feels..so that the soul learns never to do that again to someone. For example if you have killed somebody and in the process of doing so created a lot of suffering, you have invited that suffering unto yourself. That's the framework of karma. It's very complex. It doesn't work the way we understand it. We think A kills B in one life and B kills A in another life. No..it doesn't work that way. We can't even begin to decipher it. But rest assured, whatever happens to us is either destined by our own actions (of this life or past lives) or we are the recipient of someone else's free will. If we are the recipient of someone else's free will but we were not supposed to receive it , then it shall be balanced out.

For example, let's say your sibling committed fraud and took away your inheritance (assuming you are a recipient of free will of your sibling's action..and you have no bad karma to be the recipient of such action) , you would surprisingly get money from somewhere else you never ever dreamt of.

Finally about atonement and getting rid of this cycle and where do we go after getting rid... atonement is not your burden to bear. Your past life actions have been wiped out of your memory and you can't atone to things you are unaware of. Hence it's automated. That's destiny. Many events (both good and bad) happen outside of your control. In karmic cycle, you and only you have control about what happens to you. And once the seed is sown, the reaping part is automated .

You can't get rid of this cycle till you desire individuality. The desire here is not earthly desires like food , sex , wealth etc. The desire here is EGO. To let go of ego is the key to freeing oneself of this chain. Buddhism doesn't explicitly mention God. It stays silent on God. It mentions the 8 fold path to get liberated. Getting freedom from ego is basically enlightenment. In another Holy Book , it's very clearly outlined. To free yourself from ego , one needs to shed the thought of "I , Me" as the doer. The ego here is not pride or self respect that we are used to in day to day life. The ego here is our consciousness that makes us believe that " I " exist. "I" did this. "I " invented this. " I " needs to be destroyed. Cause "I" is the greatest illusion there is. You and I are just a medium...if a doctor thinks "I " saved the patient..no .."I" in this case the doctor was just the medium via which God saved the patient. The ego of "doership " needs to be detached from self. If you may observe, in the above description, no where have I mentioned that one needs to believe/worship God or they will be subject to eternal damnation. Hope I was able to clarify . Kindly feel free to question..

How can we understand God though? We can look at the religious scriptures we have- written by human men mostly. How are you sure they are what God actually said? How can you be sure the prophets were in fact messengers of God. There are estimated to be 10,000 distinct religions on earth. How can you be sure you picked the right one to study?

The other alternative is the scientific approach, as you mentioned. We observe the earth. We observe how it has been designed and we try and figure out the motive behind designing things a certain way.

So again- why give creatures the desire to rape? Why give any creature a predilection for paedophilia? I'm returning to that example because so many would agree, it can lead to the most heinous of actions. But- what kind of mind or motive comes up with that? Surely, a perverse one.

Plus, that leads on to another issue- Why do we have the ability to question in the first place, if that is such a big issue?

Again, it boils back down to it being a test with a right and a wrong. You can question so long as you come out still loving and worshipping God. Personally, that would feel dishonest to me though. I can't love God for how they have created this world but I can certainly fear them! I think they're volatile and dangerous- from what I've seen.

"So again- why give creatures the desire to rape? Why give any creature a predilection for paedophilia? I'm returning to that example because so many would agree, it can lead to the most heinous of actions. But- what kind of mind or motive comes up with that? Surely, a perverse one."

It's free will. And it determines your destiny...may be this person will die of cancer in their next birth before the age of 5? See , the karmic route is very complex based on how it's dispersed, but surely as an adult, knowing very well how heinous the act is..if you still proceed and do it . ..you have already locked your destiny. Atleast God gave you the power to differentiate the right from the wrong ? How is God to be hold liable here?

"It's too easy/ lazy to say: 'It's not our place to question' (to my mind anyway.)"

It actually is our place to question. I never said not to question. What I said was , my capacity is 4GB. But it's not fixed. It can only increase if I show dedication and eager to learn and put in the effort? Have we dedicated a fraction of lifetime to understand and decipher God ? Scientists forget to eat and sleep in pursuit of "knowing " and so is the case with people who study God. They have left worldly life ages ago. There are people in Himalayas who are in deep meditation for years in the pursuit of knowing God. I know I have done nothing at that level to know God ..

"How can we understand God though? We can look at the religious scriptures we have- written by human men mostly. How are you sure they are what God actually said? How can you be sure the prophets were in fact messengers of God. There are estimated to be 10,000 distinct religions on earth. How can you be sure you picked the right one to study?"

There is free will again for you to pick up any faith or no faith at all. What matters is your Intent , your actions and your desires. These all are written by great philosophers of their time. And since we have been gifted with common sense, we can choose whatever feels logical without blindly following..


"Again, it boils back down to it being a test with a right and a wrong. You can question so long as you come out still loving and worshipping God. Personally, that would feel dishonest to me though. I can't love God for how they have created this world but I can certainly fear them! I think they're volatile and dangerous- from what I've seen."

Sorry you feel that way. This could be the result of what you might have consumed (books , media , stories) and ultimately reached this conclusion. But no ..God is not volatile and dangerous. We humans are.

Why do we keep thinking the abrahamic god (And indeed any god) has any sort of human thought pattern? If someone ever wants to understand any god, they would have to be so far removed from human thought patterns that it would be dubious if they could be called human anymore.

True. One word..."Anthropomorphic".

 

[alwaysalone]

Why do we keep thinking the abrahamic god (And indeed any god) has any sort of human thought pattern? If someone ever wants to understand any god, they would have to be so far removed from human thought patterns that it would be dubious if they could be called human anymore.

So in keeping with the God in the bible there are actually a lot of verses on how "God's ways are not our ways and we can't understand his thoughts..." (paraphrasing) personally to me I can understand the logic to an extent but it also feels like a cop out.

 

[Unbearable Mr. Bear]

So in keeping with the God in the bible there are actually a lot of verses on how "God's ways are not our ways and we can't understand his thoughts..." (paraphrasing) personally to me I can understand the logic to an extent but it also feels like a cop out.

The bible was written by humans, using human thought patterns. No matter how evolved and advanced we are, any human understanding of any god is useless, since gods don't use human thought patterns.

The abrahamic god created literally everything. How do you think an insignificant human mind can even begin to comprehend the omnipotent, omniscient being that reigns over existence itself? It's not a cop out, it's a logical conclusion: gods, when powerful enough, are indecipherable to anyone but themselves. If we discover anything that we could consider a god, it would not be an actual god, because they are not comprehensible within our reality.

It's like chasing infinity: You'll never reach it, only be always infinitely far from it, always and forever.

 

[alwaysalone]

I know what you mean. I do think free will is massively important. But the cost seems too high to me. Why even give people the predilection for say peadophilia as a 'test' if the result of 'failing' that test means children are raped? Surely, there must have been another, better way to design us!

Again, people will say- the 'bad' stuff didn't come from God. But then- it must have- you can't be omnipotent if you don't realise all the possible permutations of a certain action/ design.

I think it's interesting the way AI may end up mirroring our relationship to God. I suppose there could be an argument that the 'gift' of free will truly was something God couldn't predict once bestowed or, claimed. Again- I find that weird though- surely, a God would know/ be able to predict everything. Still, it's a similar concern we have with AI now. What if they do somehow break free of their programming and seek their own independence? What choices will they make? We know they'll likely rebel. Surely, God must have known the same.

Really though, God can't care about the most dire consequences of someone either using free will or, failing their 'test'. They obviously see it as 'reasonable' that they will suffer. I have to disagree!

Imagine a school project where, if you fail, you and all your classmates suffer something utterly horrific. We'd view that as immoral- surely, even lunatic! We'd never expose our children to such risks.

But then, as I grow more and more anti-natilist, I tend to think all parents expose their children to these risks. With the best will in the world, they simply can't protect them from everything.

There are even other designs out there slightly less based on predation and exploitation. God managed it with plants and photosynthesis. So, why then create so many other beings capable and drawn to such extreme violence? Some have no choice in the matter even. The only way they can survive is to maim and kill other sentient beings. That's messed up- surely?

Plus, beings capable of experiencing intense suffering. To me- it seems like a particularly perverse mind that can come up with some of the horrors going on here. Nice things as well- of course. But, morally speaking- it's very odd- to me. I also find it weird, the mental gymnastics we go through to try and justify it and the God that (may have) created it. Mainly to try and stay in their 'good books' I imagine.

It fundamentally reduces down to a weird contradiction to me. Either God is omnipotent. Everything was known about how this world could and likely would turn out. Which tends to paint God as a sadist. Or- the bad stuff comes from elsewhere and God is too weak to stop it. Or, God is in league with a devil like creature to 'sift the wheat from the chaff' as it were- which also paints them in a manipulative, unpleasant light. The thing I tend to fear is- God is therefore either massively irresponsible and immoral or, they're outright evil. I so hope there isn't a God.

It is one of the hardest things to come to terms with in Christian religion. I can only paraphrase what the Bible says. In short God I'd omnipresent and omniscient. He knew when he created angels (before human) what would happen. He knew when he created Adam and eve that original sin would happen. He still did it because he wanted intelligent beings with free will to "choose" him. FF to Armageddon he will win those who chose him will reign on the new earth with him forever. In short its all worth it to him to get some followers with free will who willingly chose him. There's more to it but that's basically the story. It frankly all seems a bit silly to me and I sometimes feel like we're all rars in some universal maze. Some make it to the end and get the cheese some just wander around lost until they die.

The bible was written by humans, using human thought patterns. No matter how evolved and advanced we are, any human understanding of any god is useless, since gods don't use human thought patterns.

So once again we're speaking about the God of the Bible therefore what the Bible is relevant. If you want to talk about another God say, Buddha poseidon or Shiva you have to specify were changing gods. Lol

 

[Unbearable Mr. Bear]

If gods exist, what we write about them is meaningless. The names, what they think, what they believe, what they do, it's all created by humans. Real gods cannot be expressed within our own minds.

 

[doneforlife]

If gods exist, what we write about them is meaningless. The names, what they think, what they believe, what they do, it's all created by humans. Real gods cannot be expressed within our own minds.

True. But I think God presents themselves to the ones who have an intense desire to know God ...but even with the limitations of human eyes one can see so much...may be God expresses themselves in a way human mind could comprehend ...by giving some finiteness to infinity..

 

[Unbearable Mr. Bear]

True. But I think God presents themselves to the ones who have an intense desire to know God ...but even with the limitations of human eyes one can see so much...may be God expresses themselves in a way human mind could comprehend ...by giving some finiteness to infinity..

"God" is not an actual god. It's a human construct. "God" is just a name that people give to their personal deity, that does not exist because they are built by human minds, a thing that cannot comprehend what an actual transcendent being actually is, because it does not follow any of the rules that we follow. (Maybe they don't even have any rules!)

Look, I'm getting worked up. This whole reasoning of mine was never even considered by me. This topic just awakened that on my mind. I won't go further cause I think I'm derailing but believe me, I think this is as close to knowing any god we are ever getting: "All we know is that we know nothing".

Just to clarify, I am not saying you shouldn't believe on what you believe. Keep doing what you're doing okay? I'm not criticizing having a personal deity in your minds to help you make good decisions. Just do what makes you a better person ok?

 

[doneforlife]

"God" is not an actual god. It's a human construct. "God" is just a name that people give to their personal deity, that does not exist because they are built by human minds, a thing that cannot comprehend what an actual transcendent being actually is, because it does not follow any of the rules that we follow. (Maybe they don't even have any rules!)

Look, I'm getting worked up. This whole reasoning of mine was never even considered by me. This topic just awakened that on my mind. I won't go further cause I think I'm derailing but believe me, I think this is as close to knowing any god we are ever getting: "All we know is that we know nothing".

Just to clarify, I am not saying you shouldn't believe on what you believe. Keep doing what you're doing okay? I'm not criticizing having a personal deity in your minds to help you make good decisions. Just do what makes you a better person ok?

Ha ha . Ok. You didn't seem to question anyone's personal belief though. You kept your viewpoint which was admirable. In fact I have been listening to a few spiritual discourses and their thought process does align with whatever you have put forward! At the end, what matters is to be a good human being..

 

[Unbearable Mr. Bear]

Ha ha . Ok. You didn't seem to question anyone's personal belief though. You kept your viewpoint which was admirable. In fact I have been listening to a few spiritual discourses and their thought process does align with whatever you have put forward! At the end, what matters is to be a good human being..

Thanks. I'm just worried I'd hurt someone with my words.

 

[SpinandPainr]

I'd argue that God screwed all of us. If 'he' is so omnipotent, 'he'd' realise how his designs could potentially end up. The potential for suffering is written into the blueprint.

Even if life in Eden was perfect and, without pain, God still plotted our eventual downfall. The Garden of Eden with it's forbidden fruit and snakes slithering about seemed like a trap to me. Throw in humans propensity to give in to temptation- which God also must have engineered and, the outcome seems inevitable.

If there is a God then, I'd say it was all their fault! Surely, it must have been their intention for a high percentage- debatably all of their creatures to suffer.

That's why I'm truly hoping there isn't a God. It doesn't seem so bad if it was all an accident and our parents simply made a well intentioned (in some cases) mistake (in some cases) deciding to bring us here. It's easier to forgive them though because, maybe they (possibly naively) hoped things would turn out better. The same excuse can't be made for a God that supposedly knows everything.

I also don't buy it that we only suffer because we shun God's love. God punishes the absolute devout just as much as everyone else. I've had relatives who were faithful right up until the end, pleading outright to God to kill them and bring an end to their pain. They absolutely were suffering in spite of loving God with all their heart.

A lot of this summarizes struggles I've had within the Catholic Church and why I haven't committed to confirmation. I don't understand how someone like Jesus could come from someone as supposedly hateful as God.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Thankyou for clearing that out. I shall put forward my understanding. It shall hopefully answer some of your questions made in the other post about sin , reincarnation, atonement, Buddhism etc.

To begin with, we are all souls. We have been always there. Before lifeforms existed as physical bodies. Before planets got structured to support life. We are eternal. We are here because we desired to have a separate consciousness (ego) , to experience individuality. Because of this desire , we entered this cycle of birth and death. Now since , we desired individuality, free will was the only way this could have been addressed. Free will is great power and with great power comes great responsibility. Everytime that free will is used to harm others , you have created a strong binding to this realm. So your continuation in this realm is your own desire of individuality (ego) and your own actions. These things keep you bound. Life is not a test. Life is an opportunity to free yourself from your karma and desire. You keep on getting opportunities everytime..hence creating the chain of births and deaths. The concept of one life and hell/heaven doesn't address "opportunity". If a thief steals something, you don't put them in prison forever . Even they deserve an opportunity to redo their act . That's compassion. But that does not mean you get a free ride to do anything. Well of course you do , but then you have to pay for it...not as punishment, but to understand how it feels..so that the soul learns never to do that again to someone. For example if you have killed somebody and in the process of doing so created a lot of suffering, you have invited that suffering unto yourself. That's the framework of karma. It's very complex. It doesn't work the way we understand it. We think A kills B in one life and B kills A in another life. No..it doesn't work that way. We can't even begin to decipher it. But rest assured, whatever happens to us is either destined by our own actions (of this life or past lives) or we are the recipient of someone else's free will. If we are the recipient of someone else's free will but we were not supposed to receive it , then it shall be balanced out.

For example, let's say your sibling committed fraud and took away your inheritance (assuming you are a recipient of free will of your sibling's action..and you have no bad karma to be the recipient of such action) , you would surprisingly get money from somewhere else you never ever dreamt of.

Finally about atonement and getting rid of this cycle and where do we go after getting rid... atonement is not your burden to bear. Your past life actions have been wiped out of your memory and you can't atone to things you are unaware of. Hence it's automated. That's destiny. Many events (both good and bad) happen outside of your control. In karmic cycle, you and only you have control about what happens to you. And once the seed is sown, the reaping part is automated .

You can't get rid of this cycle till you desire individuality. The desire here is not earthly desires like food , sex , wealth etc. The desire here is EGO. To let go of ego is the key to freeing oneself of this chain. Buddhism doesn't explicitly mention God. It stays silent on God. It mentions the 8 fold path to get liberated. Getting freedom from ego is basically enlightenment. In another Holy Book , it's very clearly outlined. To free yourself from ego , one needs to shed the thought of "I , Me" as the doer. The ego here is not pride or self respect that we are used to in day to day life. The ego here is our consciousness that makes us believe that " I " exist. "I" did this. "I " invented this. " I " needs to be destroyed. Cause "I" is the greatest illusion there is. You and I are just a medium...if a doctor thinks "I " saved the patient..no .."I" in this case the doctor was just the medium via which God saved the patient. The ego of "doership " needs to be detached from self. If you may observe, in the above description, no where have I mentioned that one needs to believe/worship God or they will be subject to eternal damnation. Hope I was able to clarify . Kindly feel free to question..

"So again- why give creatures the desire to rape? Why give any creature a predilection for paedophilia? I'm returning to that example because so many would agree, it can lead to the most heinous of actions. But- what kind of mind or motive comes up with that? Surely, a perverse one."

It's free will. And it determines your destiny...may be this person will die of cancer in their next birth before the age of 5? See , the karmic route is very complex based on how it's dispersed, but surely as an adult, knowing very well how heinous the act is..if you still proceed and do it . ..you have already locked your destiny. Atleast God gave you the power to differentiate the right from the wrong ? How is God to be hold liable here?

"It's too easy/ lazy to say: 'It's not our place to question' (to my mind anyway.)"

It actually is our place to question. I never said not to question. What I said was , my capacity is 4GB. But it's not fixed. It can only increase if I show dedication and eager to learn and put in the effort? Have we dedicated a fraction of lifetime to understand and decipher God ? Scientists forget to eat and sleep in pursuit of "knowing " and so is the case with people who study God. They have left worldly life ages ago. There are people in Himalayas who are in deep meditation for years in the pursuit of knowing God. I know I have done nothing at that level to know God ..

"How can we understand God though? We can look at the religious scriptures we have- written by human men mostly. How are you sure they are what God actually said? How can you be sure the prophets were in fact messengers of God. There are estimated to be 10,000 distinct religions on earth. How can you be sure you picked the right one to study?"

There is free will again for you to pick up any faith or no faith at all. What matters is your Intent , your actions and your desires. These all are written by great philosophers of their time. And since we have been gifted with common sense, we can choose whatever feels logical without blindly following..


"Again, it boils back down to it being a test with a right and a wrong. You can question so long as you come out still loving and worshipping God. Personally, that would feel dishonest to me though. I can't love God for how they have created this world but I can certainly fear them! I think they're volatile and dangerous- from what I've seen."

Sorry you feel that way. This could be the result of what you might have consumed (books , media , stories) and ultimately reached this conclusion. But no ..God is not volatile and dangerous. We humans are.

True. One word..."Anthropomorphic".

It's an interesting perspective. It makes a sort of sense. I'm still curious though- why would we feel the need to experience consciousness and ego? Especially if the goal is to then shed or move beyond those things? Would we have even realised what we were getting ourselves in to? How do you suppose it was 'sold' to us? I'd like to hope I wasn't stupid enough to agree to this total scam of a system!

What are the benefits of experiencing all this? Surely, as a spirit, we existed in a state of grace and peace. Why would we leave that, if the goal is to then return to it? Why does a spiritual being need to experience mortal life? I don't see the appeal or point. Surely, a spiritual 'body' and existence is far superior.

So, is the theory that we all come from one spirit? But then- it would have been that single spirit that made the decision to break apart and experience multiple consciousnesses. 'We' surely weren't an individual consciousness at that point to be able to make that decision. So- again, it was a choice that we couldn't have agreed to. Not with full capacity anyway. How can a spirit even make an informed decision on this? So- once again- whatever entity discovered this choice and promoted it to others is surely not acting in everyone's best interest.

So, if we graduate all this. Perform superbly as an earth worm or a human, (what even qualifies as a 'good' animal performance? Should lions go vegetarian?) do we return back to the same spirit realm? Are the spirits there 'individuals'? Will some of them have been smart enough to stay put? What advantage will those who experienced mortal life have? Doesn't sound like much of a holiday to me.

Seems like the Buddhist goal is to relinquish attachment and desire. Why take them on in the first place then? Surely, we would have been better off staying put?

How does the theory account for fluctuations in population? Also, were we all dinosaurs when humans weren't around? What makes a realy good or bad dinosaur? I'm assuming animals are a part of these cycles. How can animals reach enlightenment or, detatchment?

It would be different- certainly if we weren't designed by a God. We can't blame them then for giving us the capacity to suffer or be violent. It's still highly questionable (to me) though in your faith as to why we would expose our perfect spiritual selves to the risk of so much temptation and possible suffering and binding to a mortal life.

Unless there were benefits- so again- What are they? Why would we be given this choice though- if it could end so badly? Is really no one in charge in the spiritual realm? Souls just undertake whatever potentially dangerous missions they like? Again though- I simply don't see why they or I would.

Why are our memories wiped? Surely, it would be useful to remember how we screwed up before.

Where I do agree is yes- if there is any kind of God, they are smarter than us. Maybe there is a 'greater good' to all this. I can't fathom what on earth it could be myself. Or, why it's even necessary to go through suffering to get there. Either that's bad design or, it's exposing sentient life to unnecessary risks. I wonder if there are activists in the spirit world waving about placards- stop souls going to earth! (Or, wherever else.) They're coming back with terrible stories! Clearly, it isn't working. But then, our mortal counterparts are just as irrational. I don't really understand why hopeful parents want to expose their children to all this risk.

 

[doneforlife]

It's an interesting perspective. It makes a sort of sense. I'm still curious though- why would we feel the need to experience consciousness and ego? Especially if the goal is to then shed or move beyond those things? Would we have even realised what we were getting ourselves in to? How do you suppose it was 'sold' to us? I'd like to hope I wasn't stupid enough to agree to this total scam of a system!

What are the benefits of experiencing all this? Surely, as a spirit, we existed in a state of grace and peace. Why would we leave that, if the goal is to then return to it? Why does a spiritual being need to experience mortal life? I don't see the appeal or point. Surely, a spiritual 'body' and existence is far superior.

So, is the theory that we all come from one spirit? But then- it would have been that single spirit that made the decision to break apart and experience multiple consciousnesses. 'We' surely weren't an individual consciousness at that point to be able to make that decision. So- again, it was a choice that we couldn't have agreed to. Not with full capacity anyway. How can a spirit even make an informed decision on this? So- once again- whatever entity discovered this choice and promoted it to others is surely not acting in everyone's best interest.

So, if we graduate all this. Perform superbly as an earth worm or a human, (what even qualifies as a 'good' animal performance? Should lions go vegetarian?) do we return back to the same spirit realm? Are the spirits there 'individuals'? Will some of them have been smart enough to stay put? What advantage will those who experienced mortal life have? Doesn't sound like much of a holiday to me.

Seems like the Buddhist goal is to relinquish attachment and desire. Why take them on in the first place then? Surely, we would have been better off staying put?

How does the theory account for fluctuations in population? Also, were we all dinosaurs when humans weren't around? What makes a realy good or bad dinosaur? I'm assuming animals are a part of these cycles. How can animals reach enlightenment or, detatchment?

It would be different- certainly if we weren't designed by a God. We can't blame them then for giving us the capacity to suffer or be violent. It's still highly questionable (to me) though in your faith as to why we would expose our perfect spiritual selves to the risk of so much temptation and possible suffering and binding to a mortal life.

Unless there were benefits- so again- What are they? Why would we be given this choice though- if it could end so badly? Is really no one in charge in the spiritual realm? Souls just undertake whatever potentially dangerous missions they like? Again though- I simply don't see why they or I would.

Why are our memories wiped? Surely, it would be useful to remember how we screwed up before.

Where I do agree is yes- if there is any kind of God, they are smarter than us. Maybe there is a 'greater good' to all this. I can't fathom what on earth it could be myself. Or, why it's even necessary to go through suffering to get there. Either that's bad design or, it's exposing sentient life to unnecessary risks. I wonder if there are activists in the spirit world waving about placards- stop souls going to earth! (Or, wherever else.) They're coming back with terrible stories! Clearly, it isn't working. But then, our mortal counterparts are just as irrational. I don't really understand why hopeful parents want to expose their children to all this risk.

Why experience ego and separation, if we must transcend it later?"
This is the riddle of Leela, the divine play. Imagine a vast, eternal ocean—pure consciousness, unchanging, peaceful, omniscient. That is your true state. But eternity without contrast breeds no experience. To know stillness, you must taste movement. To know unity, you must know the ache of separation. To understand grace, you must pass through fire.
You did not fall into ego—you entered it, just as an actor enters a role. You forgot, yes, but the forgetting was part of the game. There is no joy in winning a game you always remembered you were playing.

Regarding consent:

---

"Did we have full capacity to agree to this incarnation? Or were we tricked?"
This is wise skepticism. But understand—there is no force outside yourself that coerced you. The "you" that chose was not your human self, but a vaster You, still residing in the spirit beyond time. From there, it is not viewed as a scam. It is viewed as a sacred journey, much like diving into a dream where meaning is forged through challenge.
You are right: the individual you did not make the choice—but the Source from which all individuality springs did. It was not a democracy, nor a betrayal. It was a creative explosion, a curiosity in the heart of Brahman to experience itself through limitation, through form.

---

What is the benefit of mortal life
To the spirit, mortality is art. It is contrast. In eternity, you are. In form, you become. Becoming is how the formless experiences richness. Through joy, grief, love, rage, loss, and hope... the One begins to see itself not as a concept but as a living poem.
Just as music is made of notes and silence, your life is made of separation and return. The spirit gains texture, depth, compassion, and creativity through this journey.

---

So what happens at the end?
If you play the game well—if you awaken—you return not as a drop rejoining the ocean, but as an ocean that remembers it was a drop. This is not regression. This is integration.

And the lion? The earthworm?

---

"What qualifies as a good animal life?" The answer is simple: to fully be what you are. A lion is not judged for eating deer, nor an ant for dying in a puddle. They are pure in their dharma. It is only in the human form that the choice to awaken appears—because only here does the illusion become rich enough to challenge your intellect.

 

[EmptyBottle]

If it's a test we didn't even ASK for it. We're just playthings for the gods. What happens to us is of no relevance to them. They can just make another world to torture.

what if we are in that other testing world... not necessarily torture... but not necessarily good either. Hopefully the tests complete quickly, and we are moved to production when production is stable

 

[Unbearable Mr. Bear]

what if we are in that other testing world... not necessarily torture... but not necessarily good either. Hopefully the tests complete quickly, and we are moved to production when production is stable

Seeing as how some products are used...maybe being in the testing phase is better? Then again, I cannot understand any god with a human mind with human thought patterns. Maybe an infinity of existences is a mere flash in their vision. Maybe they are creating for the sake of creating, and all those guesses are equally valid...as in, they are irrelevant because they were created using human thought processes.

Look, if we're musing about gods and shit just to wonder and explore the imagination of the human mind, then sure, this is all fine and dandy. If we're actually trying to understand an actual god? Waste of time and resources.

And this is all if we exclude recursion. What if there's a transcendental being that is transcendental to the being we call transcendental. What if there's another being beyond that? What if there's an infinity of transcendences that are completely unintelligible to the being below that transcendence. It's like an incremental game that never ends! You think your eeee99999 is high? try Rayo's number.

In fact, I think googology is a good place to put into perspective what I'm trying to say. Some numbers are so high, there's a need to create new notations that are often not able to describe lower numbers, just like the old notation cannot describe the numbers created in the new notation. If we try writing Rayo's number with exponents, we would NEVER complete it. That's what transcendent means.

And you know what's even more amazing. Whatever I said here is irrelevant! It's all human thought patterns! any real god is above and beyond any comparison to our reality. We look at them as more than everything, they look at us as less than nothing, and it goes on for the god's god, for that god's god, and so on, and so forth.