Discussion Socialism is dangerous

[obligatoryshackles]

No one denies the persecution of Native Americans, but the death toll is far lower than you probably think. More people were killed in the communist Gulag.

And for what it's worth we literally wiped out more than 90% of their population before it recovered in the baby boom era. If 90% of Russians had died during Communist persecutions they wouldn't have had a country anymore lol.

 

[Pessimist]

As I said. Irrelevant to the argument. People do bad things. For ideology, for religion, for personal gain.

And communism is an evil, far-left extremist ideology that always leads to mass murder, genocide and famine. A communist is a left-wing Nazi. You should probably read The Black Book of Communism.

View attachment 151034

And for what it's worth we literally wiped out more than 90% of their population before it recovered in the baby boom era lol.

Doesn't look like 45 million people in 4 years. Sorry.

Mao's Great Leap Forward 'killed 45 million in four years'

Mao Zedong, founder of the People's Republic of China, qualifies as the greatest mass murderer in world history, an expert who had unprecedented access to official Communist Party archives said yesterday.

www.independent.co.uk

 

[obligatoryshackles]

And communism is an evil, far-left extremist ideology that always leads to mass murder, genocide and famine. A communist is a left-wing Nazi. You should probably read The Black Book of Communism.

Doesn't look like 45 million people in 4 years. Sorry.

Mao's Great Leap Forward 'killed 45 million in four years'

Mao Zedong, founder of the People's Republic of China, qualifies as the greatest mass murderer in world history, an expert who had unprecedented access to official Communist Party archives said yesterday.

www.independent.co.uk

So you have no argument for proportional populations got it. 10% vs 90%. Deliberate genocide vs failed agricultural policy.

 

[Pessimist]

So you have no argument for proportional populations got it. 10% vs 90%. Deliberate genocide vs failed agricultural policy.

View attachment 151035

"Failed agricultural policy": State retribution for tiny thefts, such as stealing a potato, even by a child, would include being tied up and thrown into a pond; parents were forced to bury their children alive or were doused in excrement and urine, others were set alight, or had a nose or ear cut off. One record shows how a man was branded with hot metal. People were forced to work naked in the middle of winter; 80 per cent of all the villagers in one region of a quarter of a million Chinese were banned from the official canteen because they were too old or ill to be effective workers, so were deliberately starved to death.

Mao's Great Leap Forward 'killed 45 million in four years'

Mao Zedong, founder of the People's Republic of China, qualifies as the greatest mass murderer in world history, an expert who had unprecedented access to official Communist Party archives said yesterday.

www.independent.co.uk

 

[obligatoryshackles]

"Failed agricultural policy": State retribution for tiny thefts, such as stealing a potato, even by a child, would include being tied up and thrown into a pond; parents were forced to bury their children alive or were doused in excrement and urine, others were set alight, or had a nose or ear cut off. One record shows how a man was branded with hot metal. People were forced to work naked in the middle of winter; 80 per cent of all the villagers in one region of a quarter of a million Chinese were banned from the official canteen because they were too old or ill to be effective workers, so were deliberately starved to death.

Mao's Great Leap Forward 'killed 45 million in four years'

Mao Zedong, founder of the People's Republic of China, qualifies as the greatest mass murderer in world history, an expert who had unprecedented access to official Communist Party archives said yesterday.

www.independent.co.uk

Again, you're losing the point. We can go on listing China's, America's, Russia's horrible war crimes on and on. All these things and worse were done to American slaves. China had a bit of an embarrassing history with mass death and starvation even before Karl Marx was born. Russia was a brutal autocracy long before Stalin waltzed into office.

 

[Pessimist]

Again, you're losing the point. We can go on listing China's, America's, Russia's horrible war crimes on and on. All these things and worse were done to American slaves. China had a bit of an embarrassing history with mass death and starvation even before Karl Marx was born. Russia was a brutal autocracy long before Stalin waltzed into office.

Do you know where slavery was the most brutal? In the communist Gulag.

 

[obligatoryshackles]

Anyway I'm done. I gotta go sleep and I'm not gonna bother coming back here tomorrow unless something funny happens. You win. America and capitalism are good and have done nothing wrong. Communism (and apparently socialism? which is mostly just stuff like universal healthcare or welfare for those who need it) is automatically evil and could never succeed. And yes, I am blatantly misrepresenting your position on purpose.

 

[Pessimist]

Anyway I'm done. I gotta go sleep and I'm not gonna bother coming back here tomorrow unless something funny happens. You win. America and capitalism are good and have done nothing wrong. Communism (and apparently socialism? which is mostly just stuff like universal healthcare or welfare for those who need it) is automatically evil and could never succeed. And yes, I am blatantly misrepresenting your position on purpose.

Universal healthcare is social democracy. That's good.

 

[notwhereIbelong]

@EvisceratedJester you need to stop coming into threads before me and saying what I want to say

Besides the fact that you're conflating Socialism and Communism (yes, there is a difference), it's true that all countries and regimens attempting or claiming to be such have always failed, and it's not the ideology's fault, but of twisted people who use the discontent of the population for their own gain and agenda, and what better moment to do so than during a revolution, when a country is at its worst?

And if Socialism and Communism are such evil ideologies in your mind, then I wonder what your solution is

 

[Forever Sleep]

I feel like- just the same with a lot of politics and politicians, it would be ok if we got what was written on the tin- as it were. As it is, we get promised a bunch of things that sound like they will benefit everyone- so we vote them in and then, none of their promises come to fruition.

I can't say I know that much about politics but I've found it weird that systems that sound so utilitarian sometimes seem to be the most oppressive.

 

[Aloneandinpain]

I'm a socialist right in the heart of the good ole usa. I believe that the ownership of all businesses needs to be immediately transferred to the employees of said businesses, so that the wealth the business creates goes to the actual people who create that wealth, and not just a greedy, few-person, board-of-directors and a bunch of invisible investors. What's dangerous about spreading the wealth amongst those who actually create it, so that everyone can benefit from the work that goes into creating it, instead of just the elite few? It's quite clear that the current capitalistic model is a failure, as the divide between the haves and the have-nots grows wider by the day, and will continue to do so until capitalism is replaced by a system that actually puts people first.

Capitalism is the disease.
Socialism is the cure.

Do the employees lose all their money and homes too if the company goes bankrupt?

Or is there a double standard once again just like with all the other leftist policies?

 

[locked*n*loaded]

Do the employees lose all their money and homes too if the company goes bankrupt?

Or is there a double standard once again just like with all the other leftist policies?

Not sure. BUT, what we DO KNOW is that, in the current system, often when employees get laid-off due to economic downturns, or when a company goes belly-up, many of them already end up losing their homes and money. And the decisions that often drive companies into bankruptcy now are made by a very few people on a board of directors. The "regular" employees have no say in what a company does. At least if all the employees had ownership in the company, it would more closely resemble that of a democracy, whereby each employee had an equal voice in the business.

 

[Adûnâi]

While I haven't read this esteemed and teeming with lively exchange of ideas thread yet, I'd like to put forward my own high unique view on the matter.

I consider the Christian liberal world order in the Occident to be the most corrosive poison ever invented, whereas Communism, while taking its lineage therefrom, nevertheless is a much older variation, and either way quickly revitalises itself into feudalism (collectivisation) and paganism (Stalin worship).

No, this is _not_ trolling, I am genuinely happy for all societies throwing off the yoke of Western Christian empire of mercy under any guise they can get their brains around - be it the communism of the PKK or the Islamism of ISIS. Remove the cross by any means necessary, and the rest will be added. Hence Communism is in theory revolting, yet in practice hella based and traditional and racist.

 

[Downdraft]

I get people don't like the US. Not surprised, me neither. But if we could stop using it as an example of anything, that'd be great. You don't have to go to the other extreme either.

Instead of openly admitting the system you call for is unapplicable to real life, just move to Europe. No need for a revolution or sinking the country even more.

No, this is _not_ trolling, I am genuinely happy for all societies throwing off the yoke of Western Christian empire of mercy under any guise they can get their brains around - be it the communism of the PKK or the Islamism of ISIS. Remove the cross by any means necessary, and the rest will be added. Hence Communism is in theory revolting, yet in practice hella based and traditional and racist.

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[Aloneandinpain]

Not sure. BUT, what we DO KNOW is that, in the current system, often when employees get laid-off due to economic downturns, or when a company goes belly-up, many of them already end up losing their homes and money. And the decisions that often drive companies into bankruptcy now are made by a very few people on a board of directors. The "regular" employees have no say in what a company does. At least if all the employees had ownership in the company, it would more closely resemble that of a democracy, whereby each employee had an equal voice in the business.

Anything other than a "yes" answer is a massive double standard.

For every multi millionaire company owner there's a hundred other men living in poverty who put their homes up as collateral and lost it all trying.

Leftists only ever see/envy those at the very top, and ignore the bigger picture.

 

[Adûnâi]

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I'm anti-colonialist because the West has become the cradle of the most abominable religion on the planet. Hence I lend my moral support to all Asians who fight against it to the measure of their ability. And it just so happens that they come from different ideological backgrounds; the Taliban and Viet Cong are both allies in this regard.

Of course, I personally have my own preferences, and I wouldn't view Communism as the best recipe for resisting the American Empire. (My fav ideology is Juche because it combines blood and soil racism with monarchism and a highly technophile society.)

On another note, Christians/liberals hate all Communism the same way they hate racism - they destroy General Lee statues in America (CSA was pre-liberal), whereas in the modern Ukraine they fell the statues of Lenin. Coincidence?

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I just really hate the DMV and if socialism means everything is going to become like the DMV then I don't want any of it. I'm not even sure where I heard that either.

Also from what my family in Taiwan says, the socialist elements aren't doing them any favors. I don't know if Taiwan is actually socialist or not though.

The thing about socialism seems to me from my uninformed perspective that it relies on people actually caring about their fellow countrymen enough to be willing to pay a lot more for things they'll never see any benefit from. I don't think that's ever going to happen here because I think that even most of the people who really want socialism are only interested in how it can benefit themselves or at least people they identify more with.

 

[bitofftoomuch]

I just really hate the DMV and if socialism means everything is going to become like the DMV then I don't want any of it. I'm not even sure where I heard that either.

Also from what my family in Taiwan says, the socialist elements aren't doing them any favors. I don't know if Taiwan is actually socialist or not though.

The thing about socialism seems to me from my uninformed perspective that it relies on people actually caring about their fellow countrymen enough to be willing to pay a lot more for things they'll never see any benefit from. I don't think that's ever going to happen here because I think that even most of the people who really want socialism are only interested in how it can benefit themselves or at least people they identify more with.

Taiwan and the DMV are the funniest things you could think are socialist. And no, it's not dependent on what you say.

 

[bitofftoomuch]

Do the employees lose all their money and homes too if the company goes bankrupt?

lmfao they already do under capitalism. every five years.

 

[bitofftoomuch]

Do you know where slavery was the most brutal? In the communist Gulag.

is this a joke? the gulags were no finnish prison but they had comparable or better conditions to most present-day USA prisons. an obvious better candidate for "where slavery was the most brutal" would've been Hitler's camps.

 

[bitofftoomuch]

"Failed agricultural policy": State retribution for tiny thefts, such as stealing a potato, even by a child, would include being tied up and thrown into a pond; parents were forced to bury their children alive or were doused in excrement and urine, others were set alight, or had a nose or ear cut off. One record shows how a man was branded with hot metal. People were forced to work naked in the middle of winter; 80 per cent of all the villagers in one region of a quarter of a million Chinese were banned from the official canteen because they were too old or ill to be effective workers, so were deliberately starved to death.

Mao's Great Leap Forward 'killed 45 million in four years'

Mao Zedong, founder of the People's Republic of China, qualifies as the greatest mass murderer in world history, an expert who had unprecedented access to official Communist Party archives said yesterday.

www.independent.co.uk

"it must be true all these crazy stories, a center-right UK newspaper said so!" yeah man communism has been so bad for china, that's why Chinese life expectancy doubled under Mao.

I'm done. You're an actual joke, as evidenced by the fact you're citing the Black Book -- a pile of steaming hot garbage whose own authors have admitted the primary author was inflating numbers to an exponential degree because he had an axe to grind.

 

[yellowjester]

Socialism is basically the left-wing version of fascism. Some genocides, such as the Cambodian genocide and the Holodomor (millions of victims each), were perpetrated by far-left communist regimes. Atrocities have been committed in the name of achieving socialism. China, a one-party communist state, is an emerging superpower. It proves that communism and socialism still pose a threat to democracy.

View attachment 151024

What the fuck are they teaching you in israeli schools? This sounds like red scare propaganda from the 1950s.

Universal healthcare is social democracy. That's good.

You're acting like socialism and social democratism are two entirely different things - many founders of social democratic parties were socialists.

 

[KillingPain267]

Socialism is basically the left-wing version of fascism.

I stopped reading after this, sorry.

What the fuck are they teaching you in israeli schools? This sounds like red scare propaganda from the 1950s.

Yeah, the Black Book of Communism has been debunked over and over again. It counts Nazis killed by Sovjets as deaths attributable to communism's effects, lol. Yet, the famine in India, capitalist America's invasions of various countries are dismissed as "not real capitalism" moving the goalpost. Nevertheless, as a left-wing anarchist I agree that the Soviet Union, Cuba, China etc. have also killed many people who merely criticized the state etc. But starting off by saying socialism is just fascism and citing debunked books is ridiculous.

 

[Fvck_Society1337]

???

What the fuck would the connection of antisemitism and Nazi economic policy be exactly?

Nationalist Socialism is the perfect reaction to jewish degeneracy destroying your society.

 

[obligatoryshackles]

Nationalist Socialism is the perfect reaction to jewish degeneracy destroying your society.

Ok something funny actually happened its a real fucking Nazi lmao.

And as typical of a Nazi, there was 0 reading comprehension. Incredible.

 

[amaluuk]

These threads are always conceptually fucked from the get-go because even the smarter lads of the discussion are being compelled to start from the false premise that neoliberalism (but let's be real, basically the entire development of the 'world market' in whatever ideological form it takes) is actually a completely fine global economic system that doesn't require the deaths of millions per year in order to maintain itself. When you consider that, not even going into whether the reported death tolls for these socialist atrocities are anywhere near as accurate as claimed, one will quickly find that the picture is a lot more complicated than first glance might tell.



From Unveiling inequality : a world-historical perspective. I also recommend reading Mike Davis' Late Victorian Holocausts to understand how this system came about and was developed for anyone interested; basically any deaths you can count from the Holodomor were vastly exceeded by multiple separate famine holocausts in various Southeast Asian countries across multiple different historical timeperiods in ways far more culpable to British colonial governance, and one might find these systems echo a lot of what we have today.

Regarding the miseries of 'undeveloped countries' as natural or otherwise unpreventable and acceptable is a sickness, and reading is the cure.

 

[itsover404]

It's wild that some people think that the socialism and communism featured by authoritarian and totalitarian regimes pretending to actually hold these ideologies is actually socialism and communism. Most of these regimes were thinly veiled oligarchies and fascist dictatorships, socialist in name only. You hate socialism? Then you hate the fire department. A publicly funded institution that benefits all of society. There are many products of socialism that we don't even realize and take for granted that benefit us.

Ok something funny actually happened its a real fucking Nazi lmao.

And as typical of a Nazi, there was 0 reading comprehension. Incredible.

Facts let's just scapegoat the jews. Only this time it's not because the money is used as toilet paper, it's just the answer to all the other problems of society. As if the world wasn't being burned by plenty of non-jewish owned megacorporations worth billions/trillions which are depleting the world of it's natural resources, and buying political institutions to change laws to benefit them. If we really want to change society it doesn't start with the jews, it starts with taking political money out of politics. But no let's just fight amongst each other over irrelevant bullshit because people are either too powerless or stupid to unite instead of fighting a common threat to our respective and collective societies.

 

[GoneFromRevolution]

And communism is an evil, far-left extremist ideology that always leads to mass murder, genocide and famine. A communist is a left-wing Nazi. You should probably read The Black Book of Communism.

Doesn't look like 45 million people in 4 years. Sorry.

Mao's Great Leap Forward 'killed 45 million in four years'

Mao Zedong, founder of the People's Republic of China, qualifies as the greatest mass murderer in world history, an expert who had unprecedented access to official Communist Party archives said yesterday.

www.independent.co.uk

You realize that book has been widely discredited... right?