Discussion Regarding the "No encouragment" rule

[WishfulNeanderthal]

This is basically just me reminding people that this is the rule of the site (even if it's not being properly moderated or ignored):

"Encourage acts, ask for encouragement, or help anyone commit any acts.
Do not encourage, suggest, manipulate, coerce, or help users carry out acts of any nature whatsoever, including suicide; only provide factual information and emotional support to those who ask for it. Do not try to get the community to tell you what to do, only you can choose your path and actions."

Yet I see people here coaching people on how to CTB, sometimes indirectly encouraging them and wanting to take part or watch their CTB. This is immoral and frankly disgusting. There is already a ton of information on this website, enough for a person to have enough knowledge on CTB.

I get that this is a suicide website, but it's a source of information, not coaching, not encouragement (even if indirectly), and not someone's experiment. I might be called a pro-lifer by some, but I believe in heavy discouragement and, if possible to reach out a hand, before even thinking of linking to a thread that the user can already search up.

You do not know who the person is behind the profile.

 

[2messdup]

Ive

This is basically just me reminding people that this is the rule of the site (even if it's not being properly moderated or ignored):

"Encourage acts, ask for encouragement, or help anyone commit any acts.
Do not encourage, suggest, manipulate, coerce, or help users carry out acts of any nature whatsoever, including suicide; only provide factual information and emotional support to those who ask for it. Do not try to get the community to tell you what to do, only you can choose your path and actions."

Yet I see people here coaching people on how to CTB, sometimes indirectly encouraging them and wanting to take part or watch their CTB. This is immoral and frankly disgusting. There is already a ton of information on this website, enough for a person to have enough knowledge on CTB.

I get that this is a suicide website, but it's a source of information, not coaching, not encouragement (even if indirectly), and not someone's experiment. I might be called a pro-lifer by some, but I believe in heavy discouragement and, if possible to reach out a hand, before even thinking of linking to a thread that the user can already search up.

You do not know who the person is behind the profile.

Ive never seen anyone on here encouraging someone else to ctb. If I did I would report them to mods who, on past experience of my reporting of other types of comments, would remove the comment instantly. Ive seen many comments trying to dissuade people who appear to be in crisis, or unsure, or about to make an impulsive attempt. I've seen many of those categories of people being persuaded to change their minds and pause to reflect, and stay here for support.
Many people value this site because they can speak their mind and have adult discussions without "heavy discouragement". And as a result they are more likely to listen and "reach out". Your comments remind me of a recent discussion I had with a volunteer for the SHOUT textline in the UK. SHOUT will call emergency services if you have a plan for ctb, or if any risk is detected, unless you agree to their safety plan. They are very trigger happy in doing this. As a result, many suicidal people won't contact them. In contrast the Samaritans have a policy that it is your choice, and will even stay on the phone and keep you company while you ctb without calling emergency services unless you ask them too. The result is that suicidal people won't contact SHOUT but may well contact Samaritans, and can decide after confiding in the volunteer not to ctb, even though Samaritans won't advise them in any way. This is often because it gives the person time to get past the peak of crisis, to talk through and rationalise their thoughts.
Which helpline do you think saves more lives? SHOUT, who never get to talk to those people in the first place because they'll call police for any degree of risk? Or Samaritans who, the caller knows will listen without action or advice, allowing the caller's crisis to pass, and to voice and rationalise their thoughts.
The support from peers available here is unlike that of any other resource and is heavily relied on by many users because they can talk freely, openly and honestly, and will receive support without encouragement to ctb.
What you suggest would change this site entirely, making it like the many forums and helplines that suicidal people actively avoid.
If you are concerned I suggest you keep an eye out for active encouragement and report it if you find any, but in the meantime appreciate what a valuable resource this is.

 

[Dot]

This is basically just me reminding people that this is the rule of the site (even if it's not being properly moderated or ignored):

"Encourage acts, ask for encouragement, or help anyone commit any acts.
Do not encourage, suggest, manipulate, coerce, or help users carry out acts of any nature whatsoever, including suicide; only provide factual information and emotional support to those who ask for it. Do not try to get the community to tell you what to do, only you can choose your path and actions."

Yet I see people here coaching people on how to CTB, sometimes indirectly encouraging them and wanting to take part or watch their CTB.

Hve u bn rportng thm

In contrast the Samaritans have a policy that it is your choice, and will even stay on the phone and keep you company while you ctb without calling emergency services unless you ask them too. The result is that suicidal people won't contact SHOUT but may well contact Samaritans, and can decide after confiding in the volunteer not to ctb, even though Samaritans won't advise them in any way. This is often because it gives the person time to get past the peak of crisis, to talk through and rationalise their thoughts.

Anothr servce tht Samrtns offrn tht ppl mght nt b awre of = welfre clls

If u r cncernd abt a frnd or famly membr u cn gve thr numbr 2 Samrtns & a volnteer thre wll cll tht persn & ask if thy r ok & if thy wn2 tlk abt n.ethng - agn wth th/ promse tht thy wll nt contct LE w/o permssn unlss a 3rd prty or chld welfre = threatnd

 

[WishfulNeanderthal]

Ive

Ive never seen anyone encouraging someone else to ctb. Ive seen many comments trying to dissuade people who appear to be in crisis, or unsure, or about to make an impulsive attempt. I've seen many of those categories of people being persuaded to change their minds and pause to reflect, and stay here for support.
Many people value this site because they can speak their mind and have adult discussions without "heavy discouragement". And as a result they are more likely to listen and "reach out". Your comments remind me of a recent discussion I had with a volunteer for the SHOUT textline in the UK. SHOUT will call emergency services if you have a plan for ctb unless you agree to their safety plan. They are very trigger happy in doing this. As a result, many suicidal people won't contact them. In contrast the Samaritans have a policy that it is your choice, and will even stay on the phone and keep you company while you ctb without calling emergency services unless you ask them too. The result is that suicidal people won't contact SHOUT but may well contact Samaritans, and can decide after confiding in the volunteer not to ctb, even though Samaritans won't advise them in any way. This is often because it gives the person time to get past the peak of crisis, to talk through and rationalise their thoughts.
Which helpline do you think saves more lives? SHOUT, who never get to talk to those people in the first place because they'll call police for any degree of risk? Or Samaritans who, the caller knows will listen without action or advice, allowing the caller's crisis to pass, and to voice and rationalise their thoughts.

I understand your point of view, and what I mean by encouragement is not simply a person saying "do it!", it is the following:
1. Helping the person CTB (Either by providing sources or by coaching them)
2. Indirectly encouraging them by saying something like "That sounds like a really good way to go, gj" or something akin to that.

And what I mean by heavy discouragement is by avoiding the aforementioned things and by at least saying "If it's possible, try to give it more time," since even the lostallhope website says to follow the 3-day rule (to wait 3 days before CTB).

I do agree that there should be constructive discussions regarding suicide here, and that there should be sources of information, but that doesn't mean that there should be direct helping or indirect encouraging. If we look for example at this thread: https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/update-for-anyone-following.205662/#post-2999296

The user clearly says: "Some people messaged me and were very keen to be a part of my exit on the 16th", that is if not encouraging at least participating and helping with CTB.

However, I do agree that things like SHOUT is not effective, their kind if scripted discouragment is not something that helps for some people.

Hve u bn rportng thm


Anothr servce tht Samrtns offrn tht ppl mght nt b awre of = welfre clls

If u r cncernd abt a frnd or famly membr u cn gve thr numbr 2 Samrtns & a volnteer thre wll cll tht persn & ask if thy r ok & if thy wn2 tlk abt n.ethng - agn wth th/ promse tht thy wll nt contct LE w/o permssn unlss a 3rd prty or chld welfre = threatnd

I have not since i did not realize until now how prevalent it was on here, however I will be from now on.

 

[2messdup]

Hve u bn rportng thm


Anothr servce tht Samrtns offrn tht ppl mght nt b awre of = welfre clls

If u r cncernd abt a frnd or famly membr u cn gve thr numbr 2 Samrtns & a volnteer thre wll cll tht persn & ask if thy r ok & if thy wn2 tlk abt n.ethng - agn wth th/ promse tht thy wll nt contct LE w/o permssn unlss a 3rd prty or chld welfre = threatnd

Thanks Dot. I didn't know that.
Personally I'm having a scheduled call from Samaritans tonight after speaking to them this morning and I have felt a bit better through the day just knowing I'm getting that call. I think Samaritans strike exactly the right balance. Obviously they are just trained volunteers and not counsellors but sometimes that's all you want is to talk to a live human being, a kind one.

I understand your point of view, and what I mean by encouragement is not simply a person saying "do it!", it is the following:
1. Helping the person CTB (Either by providing sources or by coaching them)
2. Indirectly encouraging them by saying something like "That sounds like a really good way to go, gj" or something akin to that.

And what I mean by heavy discouragement is by avoiding the aforementioned things and by at least saying "If it's possible, try to give it more time," since even the lostallhope website says to follow the 3-day rule (to wait 3 days before CTB).

I do agree that there should be constructive discussions regarding suicide here, and that there should be sources of information, but that doesn't mean that there should be direct helping or indirect encouraging. If we look for example at this thread: https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/update-for-anyone-following.205662/#post-2999296

The user clearly says: "Some people messaged me and were very keen to be a part of my exit on the 16th", that is if not encouraging at least participating and helping with CTB.

However, I do agree that things like SHOUT is not effective, their kind if scripted discouragment is not something that helps for some people.


I have not since i did not realize until now how prevalent it was on here, however I will be from now on.

My point about SHOUT isn't their scripted replies. It's that their heavy handed reaction to any talk of suicide prevents them even being contacted by the people they really wanted to reach.

 

[ma0]

As helpful as I've found this forum, I will absolutely admit there are people here that give this place its undeserved reputation...

I've seen maybe 3 people here directly encouraging suicide, saying shit like "If you're so suicidal, hurry up and do it already!" which I absolutely despise.

Let it be known that if anyone reading this has said something similar to that, WE DO NOT WANT YOU HERE!!!! DELETE YOUR ACCOUNT AND TAKE YOUR BUSINESS ELSEWHERE!!!!!

It sucks how many assholes and degenerates have been joining this forum as of late, but all we can do is keep on reporting them.

These people are absolutely the reason we have been labelled as "pro-suicide" and a "death cult" when that barely represents any of the community here...

 

[WishfulNeanderthal]

Thanks Dot. I didn't know that.
Personally I'm having a scheduled call from Samaritans tonight after speaking to them this morning and I have felt a bit better through the day just knowing I'm getting that call. I think Samaritans strike exactly the right balance. Obviously they are just trained volunteers and not counsellors but sometimes that's all you want is to talk to a live human being, a kind one.

My point about SHOUT isn't their scripted replies. It's that their heavy handed reaction to any talk of suicide prevents them even being contacted by the people they really wanted to reach.

I agree that a heavy handed approach isnt healthy sometimes, and suicide should be talked about (in a constructive manner here), but I think people need to include at least healthier alternatives/perspectives if possible to the individual before talking about their CTB

As helpful as I've found this forum, I will absolutely admit there are people here that give this place its undeserved reputation...

I've seen maybe 3 people here directly encouraging suicide, saying shit like "If you're so suicidal, hurry up and do it already!" which I absolutely despise.

Let it be known that if anyone reading this has said something similar to that, WE DO NOT WANT YOU HERE!!!! DELETE YOUR ACCOUNT AND TAKE YOUR BUSINESS ELSEWHERE!!!!!

It sucks how many assholes and degenerates have been joining this forum as of late, but all we can do is keep on reporting them.

These people are absolutely the reason we have been labelled as "pro-suicide" and a "death cult" when that barely represents any of the community here...

I agree, and I do believe that there are people here who simply joined to either encourage people or to "participate" in someone's CTB which is just immoral.

 

[Blueberry Panic]

I feel like more people should understand how dms work
I feel like more people should understand how dms work

 

[2messdup]

I

As helpful as I've found this forum, I will absolutely admit there are people here that give this place its undeserved reputation...

I've seen maybe 3 people here directly encouraging suicide, saying shit like "If you're so suicidal, hurry up and do it already!" which I absolutely despise.

Let it be known that if anyone reading this has said something similar to that, WE DO NOT WANT YOU HERE!!!! DELETE YOUR ACCOUNT AND TAKE YOUR BUSINESS ELSEWHERE!!!!!

It sucks how many assholes and degenerates have been joining this forum as of late, but all we can do is keep on reporting them.

These people are absolutely the reason we have been labelled as "pro-suicide" and a "death cult" when that barely represents any of the community here...

I've never seen stuff like that. That is horrific. I suppose I spend most of my time on a different section, not the suicide discussions. But I do look at latest threads which include the suicide section. I hope those comments were reported quickly and I know their authors will have a deserved lifetime ban. Saying that, horrific people exist on many platforms. Twice I've had someone on the online Telegraph newspaper's readers comments, presumably from the UK's "respectable" middle classes, declare that it's a good thing if mentally ill young people ctb because "they'll save everyone a good deal of money". And they had no down-votes on those despicable comments.

 

[SVEN]

This is basically just me reminding people that this is the rule of the site (even if it's not being properly moderated or ignored):

"Encourage acts, ask for encouragement, or help anyone commit any acts.
Do not encourage, suggest, manipulate, coerce, or help users carry out acts of any nature whatsoever, including suicide; only provide factual information and emotional support to those who ask for it. Do not try to get the community to tell you what to do, only you can choose your path and actions."

Yet I see people here coaching people on how to CTB, sometimes indirectly encouraging them and wanting to take part or watch their CTB. This is immoral and frankly disgusting. There is already a ton of information on this website, enough for a person to have enough knowledge on CTB.

I get that this is a suicide website, but it's a source of information, not coaching, not encouragement (even if indirectly), and not someone's experiment. I might be called a pro-lifer by some, but I believe in heavy discouragement and, if possible to reach out a hand, before even thinking of linking to a thread that the user can already search up.

You do not know who the person is behind the profile.

To be honest, I've more of a problem with pro lifers who join and, often in their initial days or weeks, start posting trying to influence others in entirely the opposite direction.
As a pro choice group I've been impressed with how open minded others are to those who post that they are undecided about ctb. Indeed, just over the past couple of weeks there have been new members complaining bitterly that no one has given them sources for what they seek, or told them how to ctb.

 

[opheliaoveragain]

in my time here, I also haven't experienced a ton of these instances. obviously it's impossible for me to see every thread, esp as things like this usually are quickly reported and removed (this is my experience), thanks to the mods. but if you're catching it OP, report it. we don't want that shit here. this place is unique in the support it provides, but I also believe everyone needs to operate regarding ctb under their own steam. if the person doing it brings up streaming it, that's their choice, knowing where it could end up. it's not stunning they would get responses. there's also a myriad of reasons people may want it recorded.

not necessarily in full support of that, considering that we don't ever fully know who may be watching.

 

[WishfulNeanderthal]

To be honest, I've more of a problem with pro lifers who join and, often in their initial days or weeks, start posting trying to influence others in entirely the opposite direction.
As a pro choice group I've been impressed with how open minded others are to those who post that they are undecided about ctb. Indeed, just over the past couple of weeks there have been new members complaining bitterly that no one has given them sources for what they seek, or told them how to ctb.

In my experience there has been more hate towards pro-lifers rather than pro-death people, which isn't what I think this place should be, it should be neither pro-life nor pro death but pro-choice like you said. And a truly free choice is one that isn't influenced by a buncha people

in my time here, I also haven't experienced a ton of these instances. obviously it's impossible for me to see every thread, esp as things like this usually are quickly reported and removed (this is my experience), thanks to the mods. but if you're catching it OP, report it. we don't want that shit here. this place is unique in the support it provides, but I also believe everyone needs to operate regarding ctb under their own steam. if the person doing it brings up streaming it, that's their choice, knowing where it could end up. it's not stunning they would get responses. there's also a myriad of reasons people may want it recorded.

not necessarily in full support of that, considering that we don't ever fully know who may be watching.

Well considering this website doesnt have an age verification system, I really don't believe livestreaming or any of that shit should be allowed. Considering both the legal and moral implications, and yes I will report it when I see it obviously.

And of course they have their choice, but the fact that people are "eager" to watch that is something sickening.

 

[Droso]

I understand your point of view, and what I mean by encouragement is not simply a person saying "do it!", it is the following:
1. Helping the person CTB (Either by providing sources or by coaching them)
2. Indirectly encouraging them by saying something like "That sounds like a really good way to go, gj" or something akin to that.

And what I mean by heavy discouragement is by avoiding the aforementioned things and by at least saying "If it's possible, try to give it more time," since even the lostallhope website says to follow the 3-day rule (to wait 3 days before CTB).

Providing direct sources publicly is against the rules. If you see someone commenting a link or the name of the website (not abbreviated), then you should report them.

However, I would disagree that the examples you provided are encouragement. There are tons of resources and guides on how someone may ctb. The way these are posted are strictly for educational purposes, as stated in the rules of the site. If someone has a question about a certain method, providing the information on said method does not equal encouragement. I would argue that this is in line with the pro-choice stance. If you are giving someone all of the accurate information they need to make a decision, that is informed consent, not encouragement.

For example— many transphobes believe if you provide information on HRT and how to DIY it, you are encouraging others to do the same. Does that sound right? If you make information available to the public, does that automatically mean you are encouraging it? I'm sorry, but your claims are just false. The way you approach this is evident that you are viewing suicide as taboo and something to keep censored.

Understand that people on here come to gather information and be educated on how ctb works and how to succeed in it. For the most part, people here are rational and have thought about ctb for a good while, enough to make their own informed decision. To support "heavy discouragement" in most cases undermines the fact that we are rational human beings that have arrived to this conclusion after considerable thought and informed consent. Yes, there are people who act out of impulse and are irrational, and to those I say they would benefit from someone stepping in and asking them to think. But the heavy discouragement tactic for most suicidal people has already been used. It continues to be used continuously and presently throughout our whole society.

To deny people information and guides takes away their ability to make a rational decision— something you advocate for. You cannot have informed consent while also claiming providing such information is encouragement itself.

 

[WishfulNeanderthal]

in my time here, I also haven't experienced a ton of these instances. obviously it's impossible for me to see every thread, esp as things like this usually are quickly reported and removed (this is my experience), thanks to the mods. but if you're catching it OP, report it. we don't want that shit here. this place is unique in the support it provides, but I also believe everyone needs to operate regarding ctb under their own steam. if the person doing it brings up streaming it, that's their choice, knowing where it could end up. it's not stunning they would get responses. there's also a myriad of reasons people may want it recorded.

not necessarily in full support of that, considering that we don't ever fully know who may be watching.

Well considering this website doesnt have an age verification system, I really don't believe livestreaming or any of that shit should be allowed. Considering both the legal and moral implications, and yes I will report it when I see it obviously.

And of course they have their choice, but the fact that people are "eager" to watch that is something sickening.

 

[SVEN]

In my experience there has been more hate towards pro-lifers rather than pro-death people, which isn't what I think this place should be, it should be neither pro-life nor pro death but pro-choice like you said. And a truly free choice is one that isn't influenced by a buncha people

Well considering this website doesnt have an age verification system, I really don't believe livestreaming or any of that shit should be allowed. Considering both the legal and moral implications, and yes I will report it when I see it obviously.

And of course they have their choice, but the fact that people are "eager" to watch that is something sickening.

Perhaps when you've been here longer than 3 weeks you may have different experiences.

 

[WishfulNeanderthal]

Providing direct sources publicly is against the rules. If you see someone commenting a link or the name of the website (not abbreviated), then you should report them.

However, I would disagree that the examples you provided are encouragement. There are tons of resources and guides on how someone may ctb. The way these are posted are strictly for educational purposes, as stated in the rules of the site. If someone has a question about a certain method, providing the information on said method does not equal encouragement. I would argue that this is in line with the pro-choice stance. If you are giving someone all of the accurate information they need to make a decision, that is informed consent, not encouragement.

For example— many transphobes believe if you provide information on HRT and how to DIY it, you are encouraging others to do the same. Does that sound right? If you make information available to the public, does that automatically mean you are encouraging it? I'm sorry, but your claims are just false. The way you approach this is evident that you are viewing suicide as taboo and something to keep censored.

Understand that people on here come to gather information and be educated on how ctb works and how to succeed in it. For the most part, people here are rational and have thought about ctb for a good while, enough to make their own informed decision. To support "heavy discouragement" in most cases undermines the fact that we are rational human beings that have arrived to this conclusion after considerable thought and informed consent. Yes, there are people who act out of impulse and are irrational, and to those I say they would benefit from someone stepping in and asking them to think. But the heavy discouragement tactic for most suicidal people has already been used. It continues to be used continuously and presently throughout our whole society.

To deny people information and guides takes away their ability to make a rational decision— something you advocate for. You cannot have informed consent while also claiming providing such information is encouragement itself.

I have not seen many sources being posted unabbreviated, but most happen in dm's, is what I'm guessing. But I think you misunderstand, I am not against the fact that this website is a source of knowledge regarding CTB, I believe it should be freely available so that more harm isn't done.

What I mean is by personalized coaching, there are already guides on this website, like you said, but helping people make a personalized setup or schedule to CTB is what I feel is problematic and breaks the rule that is aforementioned.

I do not intend to keep suicide a taboo, nor do I see how you came to this conclusion, given that I have said that I think the site should be a source of knowledge, not personalized guidance. And I do have to reiterate that when I mean heavy discouragement, I should have just said discouragement since I believe in the same method that "lostallhope" website does, both being a source of knowledge but also one that offers alternatives (which it does in part with the recovery channel).

This website has already had several people CTB for differing reasons, some impulsive, some not. I do realize that one should not attempt to protest against a rational choice, but we cannot always know it's a rational choice, and hence, a light discouragement and offering an alternative perspective, if possible, before giving information.

In summary:
1. I do not believe we should censor information or censor having a conversation about CTB to the public.
2. I do not believe that a scripted heavy discouragement should be utilized as a regular method; instead, a light discouragement combined with an alternative perspective, if possible, before giving that information or WHILE giving that information. (For example: LostAllHope's 3-day rule)
3. I believe the problem here is the fact that there are influences on individuals' rational choices, not through information but by interaction, and hence affect that rational choice.
4. Encouragement, including wanting to participate in watching someone else's CTB, is one of those influences.
5. There's a clear difference between a rational CTB and an impulsive one.

Perhaps when you've been here longer than 3 weeks you may have different experiences.

Of course, I have been lurking on here without an account for quite a while though.

 

[opheliaoveragain]

Well considering this website doesnt have an age verification system, I really don't believe livestreaming or any of that shit should be allowed. Considering both the legal and moral implications, and yes I will report it when I see it obviously.

And of course they have their choice, but the fact that people are "eager" to watch that is something sickening.

I hear you. I can't say i've ever been one of those people to reply. I keep an eye on those threads when they cross my radar but i've never had a particularly gross feeling from the few replies that happen (if you're speaking super recently, ofc there's a chance I missed it, I believe what you say) , but typically people who have been here a bit are aware of watch people die . tv - some use it to better understand their chosen method, usually in terms of what the body does. obviously some have other reasons, really bad, gross reasons that honestly the majority of the users here, the active ones, don't really have, per my experience in posts/chat/dms.


you're not alone in having feelings about age verification, it's just a tough one without making everyone submit ID's (which actually does happen on occasion via the mods if someone is questioned on their age) and a lot of us are pretty vigilant about anything that treads into not ok territory. we're protective of this place, I know i'm not alone in feeling that way.

 

[WishfulNeanderthal]

I hear you. I can't say i've ever been one of those people to reply. I keep an eye on those threads when they cross my radar but i've never had a particularly gross feeling from the few replies that happen (if you're speaking super recently, ofc there's a chance I missed it, I believe what you say) , but typically people who have been here a bit are aware of watch people die . tv - some use it to better understand their chosen method, usually in terms of what the body does. obviously some have other reasons, really bad, gross reasons that honestly the majority of the users here, the active ones, don't really have, per my experience in posts/chat/dms.


you're not alone in having feelings about age verification, it's just a tough one without making everyone submit ID's (which actually does happen on occasion via the mods if someone is questioned on their age) and a lot of us are pretty vigilant about anything that treads into not ok territory. we're protective of this place, I know i'm not alone in feeling that way.

Of course, and I agree that there's an educational aspect to it as well. But the question here is, how do we avoid the bad actors from influencing the individual? We are a group of sometimes incredibly vulnerable individuals, which leaves us open to influence, and that's what worries me. All it could take is one bad actor influencing an impulsive and vulnerable individual to CTB, and it's a tragedy.

 

[Droso]

I have not seen many sources being posted unabbreviated, but most happen in dm's, is what I'm guessing. But I think you misunderstand, I am not against the fact that this website is a source of knowledge regarding CTB, I believe it should be freely available so that more harm isn't done.

What I mean is by personalized coaching, there are already guides on this website, like you said, but helping people make a personalized setup or schedule to CTB is what I feel is problematic and breaks the rule that is aforementioned.

I do not intend to keep suicide a taboo, nor do I see how you came to this conclusion, given that I have said that I think the site should be a source of knowledge, not personalized guidance. And I do have to reiterate that when I mean heavy discouragement, I should have just said discouragement since I believe in the same method that "lostallhope" website does, both being a source of knowledge but also one that offers alternatives (which it does in part with the recovery channel).

This website has already had several people CTB for differing reasons, some impulsive, some not. I do realize that one should not attempt to protest against a rational choice, but we cannot always know it's a rational choice, and hence, a light discouragement and offering an alternative perspective, if possible, before giving information.

In summary:
1. I do not believe we should censor information or censor having a conversation about CTB to the public.
2. I do not believe that a scripted heavy discouragement should be utilized as a regular method; instead, a light discouragement combined with an alternative perspective, if possible, before giving that information or WHILE giving that information. (For example: LostAllHope's 3-day rule)
3. I believe the problem here is the fact that there are influences on individuals' rational choices, not through information but by interaction, and hence affect that rational choice.
4. Encouragement, including wanting to participate in watching someone else's CTB, is one of those influences.
5. There's a clear difference between a rational CTB and an impulsive one.

Of course, I have been lurking on here without an account for quite a while though.

A personalized set-up is what happens for every person who wants to ctb. The standard guide may or may not fit a person's situation and thus asking for help or feedback is necessary. This still is not in alignment with encouragement as all it does is provide further information that fits each person's needs. I would rather have someone receive information and education specific to their situation rather than them try to ctb and not working out because they had a differing variable than the vast population.

And, still, to the discouragement piece— you say that we have no evidence that a person is being rational in their decision. First, I disagree, but on principle: how do we know that they are being irrational to begin with? If we are following the thinking of "we cannot know what a person is thinking and/or going through," why assume they are being irrational in the first place?

There is no one who is stopping you from doing this, sure, but to claim that the site as a whole should be responsible for discouraging every single person who wants to commit ctb. Or as you say.. "provide different perspective." There is a lot of moralism and ethics in your argument, and I will say I am biased against that because I could not care less for shit like that, but it's insane to me that you arrive at a conclusion like this. No matter what you say or do, there is no guarantee that offering a differing perspective will do anything to a person who is considering or planning to ctb. I would argue that in most cases it is harmful: it creates a sense of alienation in said person when another individual goes up to them and tries to suggest something other than a choice that has obviously been rationalized over. At the very least, it is insensitive and self-righteous, not coming from a place of compassion but rather a place of personal ethics that you want to impose upon other people.

There are ways to tell if a person is being rational over a decision. There are ways to tell if a person is being irrational over a decision. It feels infantilizing to suggest that we must always argue with a grown adult about their personal choice "because we have no way to tell."

 

[WishfulNeanderthal]

A personalized set-up is what happens for every person who wants to ctb. The standard guide may or may not fit a person's situation and thus asking for help or feedback is necessary. This still is not in alignment with encouragement as all it does is provide further information that fits each person's needs. I would rather have someone receive information and education specific to their situation rather than them try to ctb and not working out because they had a differing variable than the vast population.

And, still, to the discouragement piece— you say that we have no evidence that a person is being rational in their decision. First, I disagree, but on principle: how do we know that they are being irrational to begin with? If we are following the thinking of "we cannot know what a person is thinking and/or going through," why assume they are being irrational in the first place?

There is no one who is stopping you from doing this, sure, but to claim that the site as a whole should be responsible for discouraging every single person who wants to commit ctb. Or as you say.. "provide different perspective." There is a lot of moralism and ethics in your argument, and I will say I am biased against that because I could not care less for shit like that, but it's insane to me that you arrive at a conclusion like this. No matter what you say or do, there is no guarantee that offering a differing perspective will do anything to a person who is considering or planning to ctb. I would argue that in most cases it is harmful: it creates a sense of alienation in said person when another individual goes up to them and tries to suggest something other than a choice that has obviously been rationalized over. At the very least, it is insensitive and self-righteous, not coming from a place of compassion but rather a place of personal ethics that you want to impose upon other people.

There are ways to tell if a person is being rational over a decision. There are ways to tell if a person is being irrational over a decision. It feels infantilizing to suggest that we must always argue with a grown adult about their personal choice "because we have no way to tell."

Regarding the personalized setup you speak of variables but at the same time while yes, its important to make sure its safe, we cannot truly know all the variables that the individual has and therefore its safer to just have a guide (like we do with the megathreads) with potential addons but it would have to be voted on (This is just me brainstorming). Otherwise, we risk bad actors and potential harm, I also disagree that giving personalized setups isn't encouraging; it influences an individual to it. But let's agree to disagree on that.

The fact that you call me insensitive and self-righteous is something that I find immature coming from you, This conversation needs to be had (and probably has been before) to keep the website safe from bad actors and further harm. I am not saying there should be a rule that says "MUST DISCOURAGE EVERY INDIVIDUAL," but it's something that should be thought about when interacting with users on here who are already vulnerable or going through a tough time. This is why I added "If possible", meaning if an individual has the will and emotional energy for it.

And yes, while we cannot guarantee that it will have an effect on an individual's choice to CTB, the least we should do is at least try, not force, but offer a different perspective or advice if possible. Of course, people should have a free choice when it comes to this, but I disagree that a light discouragement or offering advice is something that is harmful; we should strive for a positive approach if possible. Otherwise, this site will just become an echo chamber of "I want to die" instead of the nuanced discussions we can have now.

Regarding the rational choice; Yes we can not truly know if a person is impulsive or rational truly, which is why a light discouragment is better than nothing, it wont hurt a rational mind (Since I doubt a person offering an alternative perspective will unravel a rational person's perspective) but it might help an impulsive mind. It's not infantilizing as I'm not telling rational people to "Stop! Don't do it!", it's their choice, it also isn't arguing but an offer of advice or perspective.

Lastly, we are both biased towards differing views, yes, I have morals and ethics that influence what I say, including this. But it is also about the safety of the site, its user's and minimizing damage.
Anyways Imma head to sleep, this has been a good talk and I hope to continue it another day!

 

[encore]

What I mean is by personalized coaching, there are already guides on this website, like you said, but helping people make a personalized setup or schedule to CTB is what I feel is problematic and breaks the rule that is aforementioned.

not that i necessarily disagree with you, however it's hard for me to see the difference between someone helping with the "personalized setup" and this person doing the research on their own. all the information is already on the website, how would that be any different to receive said information from someone else vs stumble upon it on their own? for the sake of the argument, what about people who are disabled but are still in need of easily accessible information? would that still be an encouragement? i get that the point is to let someone wait it out and see if things might get better... but in my opinion, this is where informed consent comes in as it was mentioned before. it is not someone else's moral responsibility to withdraw information if they arbitrarily feel like someone "can still get better". i feel like this is delving into assumptions territory more than anything. i will be honest, if your concern is a person being influenced to ctb due to someone else's suggestions (setup advice, not direct "you should totally die!"), i think being on this website as a whole will already do that. acquiring information, no matter what way it is, can influence someone into making the decision to end their life.

to me it feels like you are somewhat assuming that receiving information personally, directly from a person will somehow increase the emotional effect and drive someone into ctbing. would that still be the case, in your opinion, if no directly encouraging language (which is already prohibited) is used? i feel like your points are correct when we are talking about minors and younger people in general (also arbitrary, but i can concede that), not adults.

lastly, speaking of harm reduction, it goes multiple ways as not ctbing may expose someone to further physical/mental abuse or trauma; improper preparation due to the lack of information given can result in a failed attempt with drastic social, physical and mental consequences. so in a way, what would the ultimate responsibility of someone who is on this forum be? to completely withdraw extra information and encourage recovery (potentially leading to someone having a better life), or to provide information as accurate as possible, with the effort of preventing harm due to uninformed attempt/horrible life circumstances?

i understand that the answer will always be nuanced and i'm glad this is being brought up.